Shania Twain

32:35Bella Freud:Yeah. And her weakness. She wasn't getting out of bed for days. And I planned it out. It was premeditated. I knew my dad was going to be out of town until a certain time. And didn't bother bringing her cigarettes or coffee until everyone was already in the car. The kids, my mother's grandfather clock, because it's the only thing she really would have not been able to part with from her mother. It's quite vivid still to me now because the grandfather clock, my mom, it was my mother's, my grandmother's clock. It was as big as one of the kids. so it had to lay across our laps on this 13-hour drive to Toronto.

33:32But we could not leave without it. I knew that my mother would never, she would have been so angry with me if we had left without that clock. Her mother was just everything to her and also the crucifix, my grandmother's crucifix that always hung up above the door. My grandmother was Irish, so these two things would have come from Ireland in a long, long journey to Canada. So my mother, they were in her care, and she would have wanted them with us. But to me, I'm thinking, okay, I'll do it for her, but this is our great escape right now. So whatever it takes to get her to drive this car, because I'm 13 and I don't have drives license.

34:33So we make this escape at the point where I really thought one of us is going to die in this house.

34:50and we get to Toronto. I don't even know what to do now, but I just knew that let's just get to the city where there's more support. And I went to a phone booth, just looked anything up in the yellow pages that had to do with abused abuse and found a couple of numbers, called them up, and they didn't take me seriously because I have a child's voice. And so I said, Mom, you're going to have to come on the phone because they're not going to listen to what I'm saying. And so she did, and she explained that we were lost in the city and we needed shelter and that she had four kids with her. Actually, there were only three of us because, no, there were four of us.

35:52That's right. My older sister was already gone. Yeah, four little kids and nowhere to go and a grandfather clock.

36:02Bella Freud:So they guided us there. Yeah. And, you know, that wasn't fun either. I mean, it's not like you want to live in a shelter. No. It wasn't fun. But, God, I mean, it seems almost perverse to ask you about clothes, but they are part of what does make life bearable under such extreme circumstances. And I wondered what was the first piece of clothing that you longed for as a child? New shoes. New shoes because we, I always got hand-me-down shoes, which is fine. I mean, you know, I had an older sister, some older cousins. It was an essential where we lived because of our seasons. But, and school required it.

36:58But, of course, I could wear second-hand shoes. But in my mind, I'm dreaming of a new pair of shoes that I actually go in the store and try on. You know? And so that was just one of those little things. And especially in winter, because boots are critical to prevent frostbite where I'm from. You can't wait for the bus where I'm from in 40 below Celsius without the right boots. So that was, and whenever you use secondhand boots, they're never as warm because all the padding and the insulation is older. So you never get the warmer boots when you get secondhand boots.

37:50Bella Freud:Gosh. because then when you were 22 your parents were killed in a car crash and you moved back to look after your siblings and to make sure they weren't separated by social services and stuff and you said I wasn't ready for all the things that happened to me my innocence died early how how easy do you find it to get close to someone I find it easy to get close to people. I don't, I love people and I don't need to be around a lot of people. I do love and I'm very good at one-on-one connections.

38:38But it's more life that I don't trust. I never know what's around the corner. None of us do. But I think the worst sometimes. So I'm thinking, okay, I'm always in a little bit of a survival mode, I guess is my point. So not with my relations, my relationships, but more with practical things. Will there be money tomorrow? Will there be food tomorrow? there's always a little worry about you know the worst is the worst going to happen next and so that that that's really more about not being able to rely on my parents as much as I should have been able to they were not always able to provide even though they wanted to you know I didn't have parents that didn't care but they just couldn't always provide so that was unreliable and that made me very independent I knew that I had to get to work super early in my life and bring money in and work for the family

39:57which was maybe normal in my grandparents day more so in those times but not But in my time as a kid, everybody else in my class was not worried about where their lunch was coming from. And when, you know, or if they had the right boots for winter, I didn't have any other friends that had those anxieties, actually.

40:24Bella Freud:Because you're an amazing performer, and yet there's also shyness to you. And when you're interviewed, sometimes the things I've been watching, it's almost like you throw out an alter ego first like a lasso and then you follow on afterwards. And I wondered how much of an introvert do you think you are? I'm very introverted, naturally. That was very good of you to spot that. No, I am very introvert. And I, but I force myself out there. So this has been something that my mother did gift me with by forcing me out on that stage when I was a child that did not want to be in the spotlight. I always reset by isolating myself.

41:17I love it. I love being alone. And I love being alone with my horses. And I love, you know, I also do love the one-on-one relationships. I can stay, you know, and I've done it. I mean, I can stay in my little cabin for weeks on end and just be perfectly fine. I don't need a lot of interaction, which I did retreat a lot in my youth. you know I'm not really I think I do know a lot of it was innate I was naturally shy and I didn't want to be on the stage but I also avoided just the overwhelming element of being around a lot of people and you know having to socialize with a lot of people so music again was a really great retreat something I could do on my own, perfectly fine entertaining myself with my guitar.

42:22If I didn't have any other friends, that was okay. But it also made me develop slower as a woman. And I was very shy. I never went to the beach with a bathing suit. So I never swam. I was very shy about showing any skin. And so, you know, every once in a while I would wear shorts. And that would be me going, come on, you know, snap out of this. This is ridiculous. It's, you know, 85 degrees out or, you know, I always go back from Fahrenheit and Celsius. But it was, you know, 30 degrees. And I'm dying in my jeans. Put some shorts on. Be a normal person. You're a teenager. But it was difficult for me.

43:17And only when I made my first video did I realize that, wow, there is another way to slip into my own skin as a female who has curves, who is so tired of wearing two bras. so that I don't bounce when I walk. I'm going to just take this freedom and run with it. It was this great escape making this first video, and I didn't wear a bra, and I did all the opposite things to what I would normally do as a person in my life. It was as if nobody was going to see me behind the camera. Yeah. And I could just actually be a normal, voluptuous girl. And I did. And it was super fun. And that was when I just realized that clothing could be so complimentary.

44:26Because, you know, through high school, I wore mostly guys' clothes and baseball sweatsuits and stuff like that. And I wore two bras to flatten myself out and to not bounce because I loved sports.

44:43Bella Freud:Because your stage outfits are a huge part of the identity you create as a performer. And the look you pioneered in Man, I Feel Like a Woman is, I mean, it must have been recreated by millions of people in their bedrooms. Sort of, it's so full of joy and it's so much fun. And Harry Styles cites you as an influence and you're supporting him as a special guest in his upcoming shows at Wembley. And how do you find the balance of extremely sexy and tomboy? Because there's a defiance in the way you dress that's really fun to see. Man, I Feel Like a Woman, the song itself was written as a statement.

45:32very deliberate statement that I, because by this time now, I'm already well into several videos. I'm exploring fashion. I'm really paying attention to silhouettes, the lighting, the fabrics, the textures of the fabrics, how they move, how they flow. Are they transparent? What colors they are. Now I'm entering a whole new world of joy of being a woman. And that so many men, they could, but it would take a lot more courage to do as a man. And I'm so glad that Harry Styles does it. But women just have more opportunity to have fun with clothing and self-express through their clothing. And I took advantage of that fully.

46:27And I'm saying, man, I feel like a woman. And damn, I'm going to dress like the woman I feel I am. And so that is a woman that is embracing her curves. And I do remember in an earlier video, I was going more braless, but I didn't really want to bounce. I still didn't want to bounce. So I was very careful about my movements. And someone on the set said, you've got them, girl. Show them, you know, enjoy them. And I'm thinking, yeah, but why would I want to show? I'm not trying to actually show off. I'm just trying to, you know, they were like, flaunt it. You have it, flaunt it. And I thought, well, it's not really my mindset.

47:25I don't really, I didn't really want to flaunt it. I just wanted to be myself and be natural. Like, you know, this is my body. And so why shouldn't I wear things that flatter it and that I enjoy wearing? that make me enjoy my body instead of not wanting my body. Yeah, yeah. Because as a tomboy, I didn't want this body. I wanted, I did not want a girl's body. I felt like I was cursed because men would look at me longer than they should. And it was so many awkward moments in being a voluptuous girl.

48:06so I resisted it until I started making videos and then man I feel like a woman was that was oh now I'm like oh you know this is way too much fun like you can actually tailor things to your body shape like this was blowing my mind because I didn't you know I tour clothing, anything about custom tailoring as a young woman. So it was all very new to me, and I was exploring it and indulging in it and really, really appreciating it and what it could do for a person and their self-expression. Yeah.

48:55Bella Freud:So interesting because in a way, hiding makes you feel more self-conscious, but just playing and wearing things, just as you've described, is suddenly unself-conscious. And the opposite of what you think, like, I can't be seen, suddenly feels free and you can forget about your body. I always think that's the purpose of clothes when they really work for you is to liberate you from self-consciousness and then you can use all your imagination you can be free and do daring things and not worry about showing something and I love that you enjoy um showing your midriff as you call it I mean you have this amazing waist and it's the bit of my body that I'm always the most terrified of anybody see it's like for some reason, but I wondered whose look inspired you when you started to develop your own look and do you have a fashion icon?

50:04First, I want to say that the clothing that I was discovering through the fashion was liberating me in the sense that I I wasn't trying to hide my body anymore, but I wasn't trying to show it off either. I had intentions of creating the way I wanted to look. Not hide, but the way I wanted to look, the way I wanted to be seen. So there's a manageability in that, and there's a safety in that. You can show off if you want, or it can be perceived as showing off, or it's whatever you want. That's what I love about it, and it's a creative process. And my idols in fashion, my first one I would have to say is Dolly Parton, because she was fearless.

51:18And I had such a great sense of humor about how in her responses to criticism of the way she dressed. Because, you know, you can't, you can be admired, but you will be criticized at the same time. They go together. And her sense of humor about it all was just so infectious. And I learned from that positivity. And I was drawn to it anyway. I thought, well, isn't that a great solution to criticism? You know?

51:52Bella Freud:Yeah. Finding the humor in everything. And so I admired the way she flattered her body. And I admired the way she was fearless about it. She was definitely, you know, bosom forward. Yes. And that was her. And she loved that about herself. And she indulged in that and enjoyed it. So all of her clothing enhanced that. Yeah. And so she was the corset queen before Madonna. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And then I would say Madonna was another one of my fashion icons because even though a completely different body type, she had a glamour and an edge that no one I've ever known has married together so well.

53:03And so I really thought that she was brilliant with fashion, with understanding her body and what she enjoyed accentuating. Because she was a dancer, so she was also thinking, what can I move in? Yeah. And what's practical but still strong in its statement. So, you know, she, I think, brought a lot of fashion to dance too in doing that. So true. Dancers have to move. They have to sweat. Things have to be well put together. But they still have to be aesthetic. So I admired that. I think aesthetics is important and practicality. So you have to have both. I'm not sure Dolly's, I remember talking to Dolly once.

54:00I'm not sure she was worried about practicality at all. And that was hard work human because she was always saying, you know, like her dress would weigh so much, right? Because always, like lots of embellishment and beads. And then her heels were so incredibly high. Those shoes carry all of that, the weight of those dresses. And just everything about her from head to toe was not practical for a performer. And even her nails. She detuned her guitar, and she's such a great guitarist. she detuned her guitar in order to keep her nails to play oh that's so great what she did for fashion how can you not be impressed with that as a musician that's genius isn't it genius so I'm thinking of course she's one of my fashion icons like she was not compromising her whole look look for anything and so I really admired that I'm more practical I have to I there's only one Dolly Parton only Dolly could do that but um so yeah I I like to find a balance somewhere in between things that I can function in but still feel like a woman like the woman that I want to look like yeah it's so interesting about dolly parton and madonna because their intelligence is

55:39Bella Freud:what i suppose when you were talking about practicality i was thinking she's so clever and she comes up with all these solutions to this impression this kind of you know how she wants to dazzle everybody and and Madonna too you know they're both so witty and uh fascinating and um gosh I love the detuning that's just so cool isn't that brilliant yeah and I think that creative people like Madonna like Dolly they're completely different artists all together but like like we all are you know hopefully we're all unique right um that would always be my goal and my intention, but we're entertainers as well.

56:27So we're not just the artists behind the scenes creating our images and our stories through music. We're also creating the stories and continuing the stories visually. Yeah. So it's a more complete artist doing that who's seeing the whole vision from top to bottom. And that's both Madonna and Dolly Parton. And so I admire them both and they're just so different. But I guess it's the same qualities in them both that I admire and that I respect and try to uphold myself and have fun with it at the same time, which I know they both do.

57:17Bella Freud:Yeah. Looks like it. Because you were in a marriage that was also a creative partnership and you both practiced the spiritual philosophy of St. Matt. Mm-hmm. And did that give you tools to deal with some of your childhood trauma? For me, spirituality has always been a meditative experience. And since I was a very young child, I've been very much a meditative person. And there is, in many spiritual paths, on many spiritual paths, reference to sound. And this is a reverberation, or you would say a resonance. And when I was three years old, I was playing with resonance. in my mouth and in my chest.

58:32So it's a science, but I just believe that there's no gap between science and spirituality. And when they come together innately like that, like in a child, where I'm just humming twinkle, twinkle little star in my lips, and when I would successfully manage for my tongue and my lips to tickle in that reverberation, then I knew I was getting it right. Don't ask me what I knew I was getting right, But I knew that I'd arrived at something that was really in me and natural. And it was like hitting a target. And so, you know, later in life as I, you know, discovered other just friends, family, people along the way, other journeys.

59:46And concepts of spiritualism and all of those sorts of things. And in the end, I realized there's really only one spiritual path, and it's in you.

59:57Bella Freud:Yeah. And it took me right back to that first full circle, playing with resonance. Wow, that's so interesting. Yeah. Because that's all we're trying to do in meditation. Exactly. is find that target, that place that is nothing but everything. And it's harder to explain it, even as an adult with maturity and experience, than it was to achieve it as a child in my larynx. god it's such an interesting idea that you you develop the thing that was your survival means and um and then how you've come to understand it later through practicing this spiritual you know using this spiritual practice well you know the older we get the more we intellectualize we develop our intellect and then we end up like i'm doing right now trying to explain that experience as a child that was just natural.

1:01:12And at the time, I had no idea that I would even ever need that or that it meant anything, that it was even a thing.

1:01:19Bella Freud:Yeah. It was just my little thing that I would achieve by accident, by just playing around with sound and internal sound, though, not expressing it. And the irony of that is there's some part of me that thinks I was always meant to never really express that resonance, that it was always really just meant for me. But because I did have to go through all that stage fright, it was so difficult.

1:02:00Not the songwriting, the creative part was still always just within me. I never felt I needed to share it. But my mother, her plan was different. And so, you know, and by facing that all the time from so young and then all the way through to when it would become my living and then the living of taking care of the kids after my parents died, But I just felt like I never had, it was just always meant to be. It was never going to let me go. I was just meant to be the performer as well. And that I would just have to find ways to manage it. Manage meaning the, I don't even know, I don't even know, but I think it developed into a fear, but I think it was really more just going against what was natural for me, my real natural self.

1:03:08Wasn't a spotlight person.

1:03:11Bella Freud:Because I read that you sometimes take your horse on tour with you. And I've read about equine therapy, and I wondered if the horse is almost like reestablishing trust in relationships. The horse is absolutely, the therapy with a horse is a real thing. When I first heard about it as an actual therapy, an official therapy, I thought, well, if you like horses, just go be with horses and then you'll realize that it's, you know, obviously you'll make a connection. Because horses just do do that for people. But if you don't know horses and you have no desire to be around a horse, or if you're even afraid of horses, but you do need some sort of emotional therapy or mental therapy, of course it works.

1:04:19It works maybe even better because it's foreign and you're being introduced to something that is a new way of looking at life and a new way of observing things. Yeah. And therapy does that for us. It says maybe, you know, you might want to look at it upside down or maybe you need to look at it sideways. You need another point of view. So for me, it just made sense that being with horses was therapeutic. It's a great idea. Right? But wow, this really can work for everyone. But from my own experience, the horse, the time with a horse, I can promise you my time with horses is so necessary. And I will go out in the middle of the night, and I will sit with them in the field or in the stall, and just be with them.

1:05:22And I'll fall asleep sometimes there. My husband will come looking for me at 3 in the morning, and he'll know where to find me. I just can't tell you. I mean, they can step on you when you're sitting down in their stall. They can hurt you very easily. They can bite you. They can kick you. But if you're in their frame of, I guess, emotion, they will just love you. And it's just so gorgeous.

1:06:02Bella Freud:Because you have really cool hair. It's so luscious and wild and natural, however done it is. And your husband, Frederick, has pretty amazing hair, too. And so does your horse. And I wondered, is hair something you're attracted to? I'm definitely a hair person. You know, one of my favorite supermodels was Cindy Crawford because I just thought her hair was so spectacular. I mean, she was beautiful. Anyway, she is beautiful. But I just always felt that hair. I've always had a thing for hair. And from a very young age, I was always cutting my own hair. So my first video is I'm the stylist of my hair, good for better or for worse.

1:06:49But I cut my own hair, cut all my family's hair, cousins, uncles, everyone's hair. I love hair. I like to work with hair. So that was just natural. I was always going to find hair an aesthetic extension of people's looks. And it makes such a dramatic change in the way you even look at yourself, I think. Yeah, it's so true. Definitely. It's like, is this a pull my hair back moment? It's kind of like a rolling your sleeves up moment. Is this a, you know, get my hands dirty moment? Or it's the same for hair. I see it the same way. It's like, what kind of hair moment is this? It needs thought.

1:07:46Bella Freud:Yeah. Yeah, because when I was looking at your hairstyles, I thought of Cindy Crawford because she's just got the way it moves is like how yours moves and it just behaves and it's got this incredible kind of beautiful energy to it. Yeah. Thank you. No, I love hair. I'm always looking at people's hair. Yeah. I look at people's hair before I look at their shoes. So if you fancy someone and you don't like what they're wearing, does it kill your attraction? No, because I have faith.

1:08:24No, but I have faith that maybe it's just not their best clothing day because I have those too. Sometimes I just want to be in my pajamas, and I ride my horses in my pajamas. I'm sure it doesn't look glorious, but I just go with it. Now, if I was meeting a man that I stumbled upon while I was in my pajamas riding my horse, I wouldn't want him to judge me for that. So I guess I would give somebody the same forgiveness. We can't always look our best. And there's always opportunity to look better.

1:09:13Bella Freud:I bet you'd look adorable though riding your horse in your pajamas. So it's very different from having those kind of switch off moments. But it sounds like, I mean, some people do and then other people just don't. And this good point. Don't you ever wonder? Okay, I've had so many dreams about what Dolly Parton wears when she is not on.

1:09:44That is the strangest thing to say. But what does Dolly Parton wear when she's not being Dolly Parton? I mean, I know she's always Dolly Parton, but she must wear frumpy pajamas too.

1:10:03Bella Freud:But anyway, that's for Dolly. So you literally have dreams about what Dolly might be wearing. Yes. I want to know. I have such curiosity. Yes. To me, Dolly Parton is the most mysterious, brilliant person in entertainment. and there's so much depth to everything about her. And the way she's rolled with all of the punches because she's been committed to that is also part of her. Maybe not like brilliant is not maybe the right word for that part because I think that that's just her being an exceptional, of exceptional character. Yeah. Right? Have you ever listened to that podcast called My Dolly Parton?

1:10:59Bella Freud:I think it's called Dolly Parton America. And it's, if you haven't heard it, it's the most brilliant, fascinating and sort of story and interviews with her and how, and you're right, I think she is brilliant because, I mean, her kind of forensic assessment of what's right or wrong for her and her confidence and also her unbelievable humility that comes through. So just... I mean, I learned so much about how to practice values from listening to the things she said. It's amazing. She puts love first and love and forgiveness first, always. And so if that's her go-to, it's really not that complicated in the end to say, well, I'm walking through life as my committed self, committed to my own unique self.

1:12:16and I'm not going to, you know, she can't be broken down by anything, I don't think, because she believes so much in love and forgiveness that it just, it cancels out the negativity.

1:12:32Bella Freud:Yeah, and also it doesn't come with a sort of obligatory self-sacrifice. She still is very clear about what she wants. Yeah, she expects others to take responsibility for their own opinion of her. She doesn't take responsibility for their opinion of her. She expects them to take their own responsibility for it. To me, that's everything. That is, you know, our kids need to learn that so much younger. They'd be so much happier with themselves, you know, if they had that, the Dolly Parton wisdom. Yes. Yeah. And your new album is called Little Miss Twain, and you revisit some of your early childhood experiences and some of the song.

1:13:24Bella Freud:And the chorus of Little Miss Twain is, according to my mother, I'm the next Tanya Tucker, which you mentioned, I'm going to be a star. And you hail from the world of country music, but you seem so free-spirited with the charge of, you have all the charge of a rock star. Does that feel like fun? I've been through so many genres in my development as an artist way before I got my recording contract. So the Little Miss Twain album is really the gap from when I started as a very young child as a singer, as Little Miss Twain, which is how I was introduced on stage when I was a child. Gosh. To when I got my recording contract.

1:14:21So there's a whole missing awareness in my story as an artist of how I became Shania Twain from Little Miss Twain. So Shania Twain became a recording artist at the time I was signed. But pre-signing, we're talking 27 and under. I was already in my late 20s. So all of that life had been lived already.

1:14:53Bella Freud:Wow. Yeah. As Little Miss Twain. So the earliest part was country music. Then it went into folk, well, a more like contemporary country music that would have been Glen Campbell, even early Bee Gees, and, you know, moving into then folk of the Joni Mitchell time and then became more rock. because the late 70s was now getting into more rock with, well, even, I mean, Supertramp. And all of those big band sounds were a big part of my teens. And I was doing that stuff on stage. So by the time I got my recording contract, In fact, I was already a hybrid of the rooted early years of country music and then everything in between.

1:16:01So I feel like a, I think in my soul I'm a country folk artist. The same way I see Dolly Parton because she wrote all these great folk songs that were just great stories. Honest storytelling. Like a song like I Will Always Love You that was one of her really early just guitar vocal songs that became this giant pop hit by Whitney Houston. So was it a pop song or was it a country song? I would say it was a folk song. It was a story that came from the heart and that translates all and transcends all genres. So I kind of think that I'm a folk songwriter at heart that makes a lot of sounds that bridge from country and western.

1:17:06That was my grandparents' country all the way to, you know, rock and roll.

1:17:13Bella Freud:Well, thank you so much, Anaya Twain, for being on Fashion Neurosis. It's just been wonderful to listen and talk to you and see you there. And I love your new album. It's incredible. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you. That means a lot to me. Little Miss Twain is my mother's dream come true only many years later. Yeah. It's really something. Thank you.

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