Thom Browne

0:15Bella Freud:Welcome to Fashion Neurosis, Thom Browne. Thank you, it's so nice of you here. Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes? I'm wearing pretty much what I wear every day and it's just a tailor jacket, tailor shorts, and a wool vest and tie. And these amazing socks which I'm coveting. Oh, and yeah, my socks. I love a sock. And are they your shoes too? Yep, they're my shoes. Wow, gosh, literally everything. Underwear? Yeah. I can get dressed in the dark. I basically wear the same thing every day. And yeah, it's my, I guess my uniform, my armor. And I like not having to think about it in the morning.

1:11Bella Freud:Yeah. It's great because it's such a thoughtful outfit and it suits you so well. I mean, I know this is obvious, but to see you in the flesh and wearing these clothes, which are so beautiful, it's really something. It's a fantastic impression you make. Thank you. And you're a hugely successful fashion designer who's loved and respected in Paris as well. And you've been described as the most fantasy motivated designer that New York has. and how does it feel to be embraced by Paris? I mean it's you know someone like that doesn't really feel like they're that connected to fashion it does feel somewhat surreal in a way because I you know I really just do what I do and I love I love hearing that you know the word fantasy with my work because I love that side of what I do I love the storytelling and I and I I love that people appreciate that side and you know for me I mean I love being in New York and I love you know showing in New York as well but you know Paris I think for all of us is you know the it's it's where you feel like you have to if you want to be I think taken seriously it is the place that you have to you have to at least try and be seen and you know hopefully have your work appreciated yeah it's hard to get under the french skin isn't it they're very um resistant but you most definitely have completely penetrated that you know that sort of glass wall that they put up to everyone well I think I think they you know they really appreciate true design and and quality and I think you know it's it's so cultural for them and I think that's what makes it so important yeah and there's something about the way about your clothes that has this kind of revelatory thing that's so unexpected.

3:34Bella Freud:And when I was watching your film, The Septembrists, and as though these kind of, like the internal had burst out of their backs in these white lacy feathery things, almost like some sort of chrysalis. It was, how, how did, how did that come out of a gray suit? I think, you know, sometimes I don't even know where the, you know, the ideas come from other than I love the idea of the starting with something that is somewhat just mundanely classic and boring to people and creating a fantasy around it so that it, you know, it creates something that you, you, you haven't seen before, or you've never thought of before and and i think that's you know how i work in general it's it's um and i don't i don't ever want to over intellectualize it because i think that sometimes becomes too heavy-handed and not so interesting and i like to just instinctually think of things that might look interesting or or just look fantastic and the septembers is a perfect example the story was you know just a very simple story but the the how fantastical the guys looked in in such a weird quaker way and i think that it looked you know somewhat disturbing but really beautiful and i thought you know it was a nice i thought it was a really beautiful world yeah Yeah, yeah.

5:20Bella Freud:Because we were talking about Brideshead Revisited just before we started. And it has that kind of incredible melancholy beauty of a particular moment in life. And it was so well filmed. I mean, it's really evocative, that short film. It's wonderful. I love the idea of, you know, I think there's something really beautiful in sadness and sometimes in, you know, as strange as it sounds in death. And I think there is something really beautiful about how we can create worlds with, I think, in ways that people would think are mostly sad. I find it actually somewhat not so sad and kind of beautiful.

6:11Bella Freud:it's like the like a Karen Carpenter song oh yeah yeah you never get bored of yeah there's something so beautifully sad about her voice and and there's something strangely um when I don't know if you ever get this but feeling down how it's like being dragged down into passivity but a good sad song can just rouse you from the bottom of the riverbed and get you back up and doing the next thing and then somehow you're back active even if you don't feel happy and you wore a school uniform till the age of 12 and is that unusual in america to wear a school uniform no it's um it's pretty standard in normally catholic schools yeah um and yeah so no it's it's pretty normal i suppose one always sees those films of everyone in these like sports cool, sporty, casual wear going to some groovy school.

7:25Bella Freud:Yeah. Yeah. And you said about your father, he was a man hard at work who cared nothing for his clothes. He bought his clothes in cheap stores and it made him look handsome naturally. And that's such a good description of why clothes do and don't matter. I wondered where do your rules about clothes come from? um where do they come from I think they I I think we all you know there's something in our parents and in all of us and I think the idea of because I don't really care that much about clothes as you know especially the clothes that I wear other than I I like them really well made but I don't like to think about them so much and I think there's a little bit of that that I have from my father And I don't think he cared anything about, you know, clothes at all.

8:20But he always did look good because it was basically, I mean, more of that 50s, 60s uniform that he lived in 99 % of the time. And for me, I love that idea. Yeah. And not just for men. I love it for women, too. I think it's very interesting when you feel like somebody has such a true sense of themselves. And it doesn't have to be tailoring. It could be a T-shirt and jeans. It could be whatever the person has really taken on as their, what makes them the most comfortable. And it never changes. I think there's something really interesting about that. and and for me that's why I feel you know specifically in what I do I feel like I I'm someone not that interested in in fashion per se because I I don't like things things to change I like it to stay as like almost like a single image especially for myself

9:28Bella Freud:yeah i i it's so um original to to think like that it's a it's such a confident place to be and i i can definitely relate to that because there's so much nuance in in a very strict edit and um and there's something going back to your father's clothes there's something incredibly attractive in a man in clothes he barely notices and his handsomeness shines out yeah it's lovely did he wear short sleeve shirts at all he he did yeah yeah um you know short sleeve dress shirts which um you know for me i think there's something so interesting but for for him it wasn't it was just you know his thing and um I mean if he didn't have you know a if he didn't have tailoring to to put on in the morning I don't I don't know really what he would have thought of to put on yeah um he was a very he was a very serious person but not like like obnoxiously serious he was very serious about just doing what he did and he also had seven kids so he had you know the responsibility of all of us and and then there was my mother who was like a huge um voice in my life too yeah because you said um you loved the way she dressed and uh i wondered if she paid attention to how you dress was she did she like to see you in certain things she she did care more about um clothing and how she dressed herself but in a very very classic way as my father and for all of us I mean she was just happy with all of us being in the uniforms that we grew up with and those being just a navy jacket and you know it was we splurged and wore khakis in summer and and flannels in the winter so it wasn't so much but I think in it somewhat in her defense I don't think she you know really had the time to think that much about dressing each one of us individually.

11:58And I think, you know, she was, um, she was the most beautiful person in how she gave all of her time to us.

12:10Bella Freud:Hi, I'm Brene Brown. And I'm Adam Grant. And we're here to invite you to the Curiosity Shop. A podcast that's a place for listening, wondering, thinking, feeling, and questioning. It's going to be fun. We rarely agree. But we almost never disagree. And we're always learning. That's true. You can subscribe to the Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app to automatically receive new episodes every Thursday. For the last 10 years, everything in American politics has basically revolved around one man. And as a political journalist who came of age during Donald Trump's rise in 2016, I've had a front row seat.

12:49I am officially running for president of the United States. It's going to be only America first. America first.

13:01Bella Freud:Thousands of supporters of President Trump stormed the U.S. Capitol building. But is it possible to talk about politics without talking about Donald Trump? That's the question I'm going to ask in our new show from Vox. The idea of like a post-Trump or not exactly Trump-focused show can exist because he's not really driving any agenda items. It really does feel like so reactive. You know, I think this Iran thing is also going to cause a big split in the GOP. So far, it doesn't among like people who say they're MAGA voters are still with Trump. But like for the first time, you see on a major issue, open opposition from the start of this war.

13:35I'm Estet Herndon and welcome to America Actually.

13:41And with uniform being such a huge theme in your work,

13:46Bella Freud:And I always think there's something quite contradictory and sort of kinky about a uniform. And you say everyone looks like an individual in them. And is that because people's distinguishing features are more visible when they're dressed the same? Yeah, I love the idea of uniformity and how it does make somebody look so much more interesting and so much more of an individual. because exactly that you do see, you know, what does really make them the person that they are. And I think there's something so interestingly provocative about seeing a group of people wearing the same thing. And like you're saying with LeBron, that was what was so great about that moment with LeBron and his teammates was they're, you know, wearing the same thing and they all looked so strongly individual yeah it's contraindicative you know you think of people in a uniform that it suppresses yeah their individuality and then when you see them you see how everyone has customized the way they wear things and And I always loved that as a child because we didn't have any uniform at my school.

15:08Bella Freud:And I longed for that. I wanted to have a blanket so that I could break out of that and establish my own kind of nuance of it. But then they abolished the uniform just as I was sort of gearing up to wearing a tie. And I had to pretend I was really happy and I wasn't. but so I really see it and even watching kids in the street coming out of school everyone having such a strong look more so than if they were wearing their own clothes and you're very specific about proportion and your jackets are short and they leave this sort of solar plexus area slightly exposed and it's a triangle where things can be slightly messy i always notice on myself and and i you need a lot of confidence for that and there's no long jacket covering the waist or the crotch and it i is that about toughness or vulnerability I think it more like it makes it look a little less I hate the word cool but like it like nerdier in a way because I like the idea of playing against something that looks too cool in a way and I think there is something about like a oddly ill-fitting looking short jacket and oddly short trouser that you know people don't still to this day don't seem to understand which I love the idea of that yeah because it's I I love looking at um your suits and how they're made and constructive and how you can't hide in them exactly so you have to show something else and um and the idea of a fit being a different fit instead of covering someone up it it reveals them if they can if they can make the step into that then suddenly this metamorphosis occurs and yeah I do I do feel like sometimes um not to give it that much credit but it is somewhat transformative because it is very different and very much in an opposite way the way that clothing normally fits it fits in a way that you do have to you have to be ready for because it does it does bother people sometimes in in whatever way I think it's you know sometimes I I questioned it especially at the beginning when people you know they just didn't understand it because it looked ill-fitting to most people and for me it was it was exactly how it should be fitting and but i but and it was my personality that loved the idea that it did bother people yeah that's so interesting that because there's comfort and there's comfort and i think one of the comforts is is terrible it's kind of just a blandification you never want to be too comfortable or you just become a slob in the wrong way.

18:58Bella Freud:And I think it's fascinating to see how you push people into a new comfort zone of some sort of to do with courage in their individuality. Is that something that you consciously think about when you're shaping? I think there's nothing more interesting or inspiring in somebody that, you know, is totally themselves and totally comfortable in their own skin. And I feel like that was how I started this was this is exactly how I am 100 % comfortable. And yeah, I think there is we do sometimes live in a world that everybody wants to be everybody's afraid I guess you know maybe to be you know too much of an individual but I think the world needs more of true individuals I think it's um it's especially in design I think it's it's our job to you know make sure that people see things differently and I love the idea that even you know what I created in my collection 25 years ago still I think looks brand new and still you know people still look at it and laugh at it and and I love that I get laughed at all the time I mean my kids I walk past it like um School yards and kids yell out at me.

20:43Bella Freud:What do they say? Pee Wee Herman.

20:49Yeah, so.

20:51Bella Freud:And did you ever have any hangups about your body when you were growing up? I remember the designer, Anthony Price, saying, darling, we'd never be designers if we were perfect. and it's all about the kind of, you know, the reconfiguring of the impression. I never did, other than that I would love to have been taller, but not really. I was never, you know, but that's what made the proportion that much stranger to people because, you know, my torso is short for the length of my legs. So it was, you know, I was trying to, you know, play with proportion in regards to the top and the bottom. And the top started getting shorter and shorter and shorter.

21:42And in reality, it was extremely short. So, but I don't know. That means I was, you know, self-conscious about it. But yeah, the only thing I would love to have been taller. But I'm fine with it now. At 60 years old, I'm fine. Yeah, it's taken me about that long to be fine with my opposite proportions

22:12Bella Freud:because I think proportion is such a huge thing in modernity and that's why things look modern and is to do with a real strong proportion that someone's created rather than going along with fashion.

22:32Bella Freud:And you're the middle child of six other siblings and your childhood looks all American and you've talked about American sensibilities. And I wondered what American sensibilities are and how do you turn them into something so creative? I think it really, American sensibility for me just really, it's almost a combination between sportswear and tailoring. it's the idea of clothing that actually is is really worn in an in a very free way I think that's what an American sensibility is to me you know things a little bit easier to wear and you know the way that I play with it is really taking that sensibility and and sometimes tailoring it a little bit more but you know I you know I don't ever want to get so locked into referencing it so specifically but in my head I mean I mean maybe people don't think like it's an American sensibility at all but in my head it feels that everything I do still has a very free American spirit to it.

23:46Bella Freud:Yeah, it certainly shows that. And it seems it's quite unusual for a designer to be so sort of subversive in how they, I mean, how you play with this traditional thing. And where does that come from? It seems, you know, it's really striking. And it's so thrilling as a European to feel like oh yeah he's one of us you know I mean I that sounds a bit kind of presumptuous because it's so it's really superb what what you do and but it seems un-American yeah I don't know I don't you know honestly my parents probably are looking from upstairs and they're like like rolling their eyes wondering where did the he come from but I don't know I think you know it all comes down to just wanting to do things that are interesting to me and you know and I love the idea of things not being so understood I like them to be some sometimes things not being so pretty and so ordinary and so attractive in a way i like i like the idea of it not being so um understood and and when i feel like people understand things too well i think i'm not doing something right and i because i do love the challenge um of people not always understanding what i do yeah yeah i think think i mean i completely agree and it's um i mean it's much more interesting and yeah because i read read that you had a dress code for your employees which is gray gray with a white shirt and navy is permitted friday through sunday but discouraged during the week yeah and i wondered why navy for the weekend yeah um navy is because it was like a treat for the you know for the weekend so that they weren't subjected to just gray all week long um and it played a little bit into the uniform of you know when i grew up with you know the navy jacket um but yeah i mean i don't know i think there's probably going to be a horrible book written about me someday.

26:18But I think we all, like, I love how it looks, and I love, you know, I think it creates an image in people's minds of what we do. And so we do all represent it in a very strict way at work. But I don't want to feel like I impose it on them. I hope that they all want to wear it.

26:53Bella Freud:Because it sounds like an imposition, but actually, I mean, I know from having employees that it's, you know, everyone wants more uniform. They do? Wow. So it's so nice when people want to wear what you've made. And, um, well, I, I don't understand, you know, sometimes when you're in design and you, you don't wear what you design that whole idea. I don't understand. Cause I, I mean, I love, probably love my clothing better than anybody else. And I, I couldn't ever think of wearing something else. um so the idea that you're you're working in design and working with in a design house that you wouldn't want to fully embrace you know everything that's being designed do you um i mean i agree i feel i have to test out my clothes and find what works and what could work again in some shape or form and do you fit on yourself that that you try things on as you're going through fitting stages I I used to I'm not I would I'm not a good fit model so it's but I I I like to feel like I could be you know fitting all of them but I no I mean the clothing would be even more ill-fitting if I was you know fitting it all on myself but it is you know all things that I would want to you know you know wear myself because sometimes i mean i'm certainly not a good fit model but i try things on and see i know how things fit me when they don't fit me properly but to feel that i feel i'm not doing my job properly if i don't feel it as it's moving and I get too detached and into the perfection of how it is on a fit model.

28:55Bella Freud:I feel I need to see it warped on myself slightly. Do you do that kind of thing? No, I don't. No, because it would be really ill-fitting on me. But it sounds like I want to try it. Yeah. Well, another great American designer, Charles James, he used to try on those amazing dresses and fit them on himself. Or was it his? That's amazing. I think it was on himself. But he certainly tried them on boys. And they're the best clothes, the best evening dresses. They've got some in that V &A, the Victoria and Albert Museum archive there. They're great to see. I mean the best the best and I love the stories on how how much of a perfectionist he was and how he never was finished with a dress he would even take it back from a client and not give it back and like retailer it for another client and give it back to the the new client i mean if the stories are amazing and how he was that like almost like fountainhead kind of perfectionist type of person yeah it's like a film director just re-editing again and again and yeah never being able to finish which is i totally get that we thank god for deadlines because one would never yeah finish anything otherwise yeah no because you're the only one like when you have a show you're the you do actually see all the faults more than you see the you know the the good bits Yeah, I know it's harsh.

30:56Bella Freud:That's what's great about making films is you can shape it, but you do the most incredible shows and they're absolutely heart stopping. I love them. I get told all the time they're too long and I wish they could be 10 times longer. Really good. Like in the old days, Vivian, when I worked for Vivian Westwood, she used to do shows that went on and then quite a long time. And then she introduced some, she turned her model Sarah Stockbridge into a singer. And so there was a concert on the stage and it was fantastic. It was so exciting the way everything became something else. well I just I feel like nowadays it's so unfortunate that people they I don't they have such a short attention span and they want it to be so quick um because and personally I just I do spend so much time of course with the collection but I spend so much time with how they're going to experience it and how you know the story that's going to go along with it and it can't it can't be such a short experience it needs to be you know almost a beginning middle and end yeah type of experience do people enjoy that no not everybody does no actually more don't than than do yeah you know it's it's like running commentary on how long my my shows are which you know I guess I'm kind of roll my eyes but because I could I could go on and on yeah I think that's I think yeah well I think it's great to do that and it's important as a designer one gets such a tiny moment of showing things how you want them to be that it's good to take that grab it nadine as they say yeah i i i agree but it's not always appreciated that way but and i read in an interview it said brown is in a gray suit with shorts and legs shaved to mid-calf and i wondered what that legs shaved to mid-calf is that a code or did that person invent that about you?

33:35They totally invented it. I have the hairiest legs. And I've never, well, no, I did shave them when I swam, but I haven't shaved them since. But I don't know where that came from.

33:47Bella Freud:It's interesting with your dress code that people are now imposing these other things on it that you actually haven't done. I wondered if it was to do with like cycling. I know you run and you're very athletic. Yeah. I have no problems if I did shave my legs and, you know, admitting to it, but I don't shave my legs. I quite like this kind of weird thing. A mid-calf shave is like a thing. Yeah. Yeah. What do I need to find out about that? And the stripe, where did the three stripes on the arm come from? and it's as though it denotes a rank in the world of dressing in some way. The four stripes.

34:34I fought very hard for those four stripes.

34:37Bella Freud:Sorry, did I say Freudian slip? Three, yes. Four, I fought Adidas very hard to own these four stripes. It came from a varsity sports reference. It was in America, varsity sweaters a lot of times had either three or four stripes. And, you know, so it came very simply from that piece of very American. I think it's not just American, but for me, it was an American varsity sweater. So I saw a photo of you as a little child and you had these little V-necks with stripes on the neck and on the on the rib yeah i i it's quite a i suppose it's a schooly thing isn't it that's always so charming and i i mean i'm obsessed with a strife as well i usually like to have one running down the outside of my arm if possible it feels like something a bird might have and then you can just whiz away you have this formality and and also all these subversive elements and i remember i wondered if you remember the first time you wanted to explode the order and the way you suggest in your work you know i think you know i think it's the reason why i started my own was you know working for other people and you know appreciating you know initially just appreciating having some a paycheck but yeah there was always something that I knew that there was something I wanted to do myself and it was specifically taking something I love the idea of taking an idea that everyone understood and making it not understood by most people and I think that's exactly where it started when I started my first when I made my first jacket and and trouser I love the way you go back to kind of it's like you filter out then the masses in keeping your integrity so that you there's no dilution i think that's great i know i love it too but it's it's you know that's the ongoing challenge as you know as you know i get older and people want more of it and from it you know the idea is how does it how does it evolve and grow without losing any of that because I do really I love the purity of just that simple proportion and and in a weird way I don't understand why a lot more people don't see themselves in it and i think that is sometimes my challenge because i feel like it's very understandable yeah but i like how it's not too understandable too because i always never wanted to do anything for everyone but i do feel like it it it can be understood by a lot more people and um it's the ongoing sometimes frustration but challenge in a way but i i do you know i love what it is because you said sometimes my work isn't as intellectual as people seem to think it is and and um why do you think it comes across as intellectual and do you think people are somehow looking for clues to make sense of it they're always trying to impose things upon it and and sometimes they're the most amazing interesting ideas that they're imposing on it yeah which i wish i was that smart and i wish i you know but i don't and i actually love that they do because i think that's it's interesting and you know if that's how they I guess try to understand it more I guess it makes it I guess it's interesting but for me I I like the idea that it's not so intellectual and because I feel like it's it there's almost it gives it like a naivete that is I find very charming yeah you know and I love you know little kids and their naivete and and I do feel like I use that as an inspiration a lot in my collections in you know ideas and not thinking about them too much and you know infusing them into you know the way the way that I make the collections and and my work is very seriously thought out but the idea that there's a mix of something very you know sophomoric and juvenile and i love that yeah i mean i suppose the clothes are so intelligent in a way and they i always think that if you have a good outfit on you can be more intelligent because you can forget about your self-consciousness and get you know be free in your the way you think and maybe there's something about how well made your things are and how the someone's seeing them yeah i think they're very curious yeah i do i like the idea that it's the intelligence is in the quality of the clothes um and i just have i just have no interest in you know frivolous fashion um i just like interesting ideas that uh that that i guess transcend fashion yeah yeah in all due respect to fashion i think fashion is you know it's important that you know it you know i think clothing do express a lot of what's happening you know culturally and you can express yourself through fashion but i just have a totally different approach to it and um it's i don't think it's always the normal way of approaching it well it's certainly embraced by fashion so your kind of projection of fashion is literally what has made you you know Paris embrace and and you know have so much respect for your for your work and you you said your favorite films are Chinatown and the zone of interest and both them sort of aesthetic containers for man's worst unchecked depravity and is that part of the beauty that you're interested in yeah and then also films like metropolis and you know films that the photography is just so well done that you could almost watch the movie without any sound you know i love i'm inspired mostly visually through you know film or art or architecture and and uh i love um films that just some sometimes just simply beautiful to look at yeah well the stories are so interesting in those films it it's interesting how the aesthetics are so strong because the story is so good you become amplified your your interest in those characters becomes amplified and the clothes play a big part in that.

42:53Bella Freud:But I suppose in the end, it's people that are interesting. And so how they wear their clothes then becomes interesting. And your romantic partner, Andrew Bolton, is the head curator at the Anna Winter Costume Center at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. And does he wear your clothes in a way that you find particularly attractive? Oh, he, well, Andrew is perfection for me. So everything he does is, you know, puts a smile on my face. And, you know, he wears them exactly how he wants to wear them and lives in them in the most beautiful, real way. And I'm just so fortunate to be with Andrew because he is my biggest inspiration.

43:45And everything he does is so well done. And seeing him work and seeing his work is so inspiring because he loves it so much. but also too he he really does important work you say that as though you don't I think no I I yeah I I kind of I prefer other people commenting on you know whatever I do but yeah I am I have I can and have the luxury of saying I think Andrew does the most important work and I think especially in fashion I always feel like he is the most important person in fashion because he elevates what we do to be you know worthy of being in the Met and I think there's no greater gift that you know anybody gives to us as designers yeah it certainly is true

44:53Bella Freud:Yeah. And if you fancy someone and don't like what they're wearing, does it kill your attraction?

45:03No, I don't know. I should like it. I don't know. I don't think I've had an experience. I mean, no, it doesn't change. I mean, as long as they're owning it and wearing it, you know, and they you know it's it's them and they're not like being told to wear it a certain way and that's how they're wearing it um because i think the way that yeah i mean i no i no i don't think so

45:37Bella Freud:you don't have a distant memory of a no kind of repellent moment no no not that i can recall and you're so specific about clothes how do you feel about being naked at 60 i have probably different opinion than i was 30 um no i'm comfortable but for myself and for andrew i guess um but i think i would keep it behind closed doors like do you i suppose maybe this is more woman thing but to be naked i find a lot of people like to keep something on to sort of denote nakedness but uh no no no those amazing socks yeah well that's that's a different yeah type of naked no when when i'm naked i'm naked yeah yeah and you've dressed some of the most incredible women and men for award seasons in the met gala and some of my favorite of your outfits have been for tayana taylor who i'm besotted with and uh yeah when where do you start on the body with someone as dazzling as tayana who when she wants to up the ante well i mean her in her whole body i mean she is she is one the most special person um i've gotten to know her over the i think the last decade and um i love firstly i love what she does and i love her work but with her you know her whole person she has the most amazing body to work with so So you want to make sure that you definitely take advantage of it when we're working together because she has such a special person, but also too, I think she also appreciates the appreciation of her, of who she is in her body.

47:59Bella Freud:yeah that that shot very near the beginning of one battle after another where you just it just pans out from her waist and you're completely obsessed from that moment and just how she uses her physicality and how intelligent it is and her i it's really um yeah because it is more than her body you can tell it's it's her whole person yeah it's not just a good body no it's so much more it's like her brain is just yeah streaming through every bit of her and she's very like the most amazingly confidently vulnerable which I love about her. She's really so special because she is so, such a true person and she's so strong, but she's also so beautifully, you know, real and vulnerable and can like really talk about just things in the most beautiful, vulnerable, interesting way.

49:14Bella Freud:wow that's sounds such a amazing experience to be able to clothe someone with those you know and to support them with clothing and i always think as a designer you have someone's back literally in how you send them out to to be in the world and with all that kind of spotlight especially on her right now yeah and so well deserved yeah she's really such a genius in her talent and also whoopi goldberg you've you've dressed who is another person i admire hugely yeah i mean she's you know she is iconic and talk about someone that is so comfortable with themselves and and so smart and you know and so she can be you know self-deprecating and in the most confident way and it's she's just just one of the most intelligent people I've ever met yeah and and just so good at what she does and who she is as a person.

50:32Yeah.