Five Questions That Matter | Dr Mike Gervais AMA Vol.28

13:18Dr. Michael Gervais:Yeah. Amazing. So I share that with you because our nervous systems are on fire right now because of the pace and the speed of the world and because of the inability that we are walking around with not knowing how to deal with that stress.

13:33Jeff Byers:Yeah.

13:34Dr. Michael Gervais:And how to kind of calm the nervous system. How do you deal with your nervous system when it's, cause you're living a high stress life.

13:41Jeff Byers:Yeah. I wish I had like a set protocol and I'm not great at it, right? Like I get home and I get chippy with my boys and I get chippy with my wife and I get short and those things. And I definitely show up to work as a very consistent person. And then when I'm home, I let those things wear. I think big things for me is like constant outdoor time, right? And things that bring me joy, right? Like taking the dog for the walk with my boys, throwing a ball, wrestling with them, you know, cooking dinner as a family, like doing things together versus like tasks, like go do this, do that, clean your room is really important to me.

14:15Dr. Michael Gervais:Are you tuned to your nervous system? and what I'm saying is like the fight flight response uh yes I know and I'm always like I

14:22Jeff Byers:like after I do it I'm like oh man I knew I was in that and I don't have the right tools yet to downgrade to downgrade or I'm thinking about them too late right and I would say when I played I had a really great set of tools right you go from you know my position that is so violent and I would come home like no kids right there's a very clear distinction when I was an NFL player to being at home. So I'd come home. I had a garden. Like I grew my own vegetables when I played in Carolina. I had like, I mean, people made fun of me a lot, but like, I love to garden and I always cook like a meal from scratch for dinner.

14:59Jeff Byers:And that was like, that was my downgrade of like go from something really violent, right. Which is a game of football. And you're like trained to be violent to right. Creative giving, right. Creating on that. And now, right. What I find you just said is like my work life swirls everywhere. And it's like, I don't have those systems in place. Cause I'm like, right. Home in five minutes. Right. Yeah. On my drive home. Yeah. Maybe taking a work call, thinking about something at work. Right. And there's stresses at work.

15:30Dr. Michael Gervais:And yeah, this is, so you're describing like what the modern condition is, you know, like all on intense during kind of the nine to five hours. If anyone has the luxury of nine to five and then do some stuff with the family and then you go home and you need to towards the end of the night answer emails clean up some stuff like it's two shifts as we have come to understand this is why the on mechanism and the recovery mechanism the gas is pedals down the gas pedal comes off and so the i'll be technical for a minute the sympathetic nervous system is the fight flight freeze submit response and the parasympathetic nervous system is the the rest and digest model this is not new information.

16:12Dr. Michael Gervais:But if we don't have an active practice to trigger the rest and digest systems, we run sympathetic dominant. Always. Okay. So what are those counter-rotation practices that you can put in place to be able to down-regulate? Billy, very clearly, kind of two of the big ones are meditation and or breathing practices. A third one is being able to have a peripheral vision gaze. So locked down to the barrel of the gun or the tooth of the saber tooth or like that narrow kind of intense thing, just like when we're looking at our phone, is a triggering mechanism and is corollary to the fight flight thing.

16:54Dr. Michael Gervais:So when we widen our gaze and we can do it and see the kind of the landscape of the world, you can't do that in a room. You need to be outside to do that. It also triggers the rest and digest. Laughing, holding hands, hugging, The thing that happens after high stress purposely induced, like intensity from exercise, there's a rebound effect, which is the rest and digest. So there's a whole host of things to be able to do to purposely downregulate. This is why meditation and mindfulness practice has had this massive kind of moment over the last, call it 15 years, maybe more like 10 years is more popular.

17:30Dr. Michael Gervais:I was introduced to meditation in 1998. 1998. And so I've been meditating since 1998. I don't know what I would do without it. It allows me to have perspective. It allows me to be in tune with this always present awareness. So awareness is not something you build. Awareness is always there, but you do need to build the psychological skills to be aligned with awareness, to be with awareness. And awareness is kind of the whole thing. If you're not aware, you can't adjust. Awareness is the whole thing, being tuned with awareness. So mindfulness meditation is kind of one of those ways. So anyways, I think we nailed it.

18:13Dr. Michael Gervais:Shift from perfection to purpose, as you eloquently said. Calm your nervous system down. We've just listed a handful of things. Most of them are in your control. And then you will become by default more resilient if you are able to downregulate and you're not sympathetic dominant it all the time. Big point. You have to practice the mental skills to be able to adjust your nervous system. Yeah. So cool. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Rag & Bone. I've been a big fan of Rag & Bone for a number of years. I just love what they do. It's a go-to for me when I'm choosing clothes. I've been wearing their infused denim for a while now.

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21:08Jeff Byers:All right, next one from Anna. I'm looking for different ways to experience anger without an outward harmful expression of it. and without an inward harm for expression or turning into anxiety by avoiding it. I'm looking for something beyond the usual contemporary literature and advice. It's healthy to experience anger, et cetera, et cetera. I have been through all of that. And I'm looking for actual examples of high performers who allow themselves to experience their anger, notice the experience of it, and not have to crush it inward or communicate it towards others in a destructive way.

21:39Dr. Michael Gervais:Anger's tricky. What's the goal? I hear her asking for, how do I work with one emotion? And this emotion happens to be anger. Let's do two things. Let's separate the difference between emotions and feelings. Let's do that work for a minute. But let's float up a couple levels first and talk about the bigger aspiration is to be unbothered. That's the highest performing state is that whatever happens outside of you, you are unbothered by it because you are eloquently adjusting to whatever it is. You can't control that. You can, you, this sounds so simple, but if you have a real set of internal capabilities and skills, you are more like Bruce Lee's aspiration, mind like water.

22:26Jeff Byers:Yeah.

22:27Dr. Michael Gervais:You just kind of roll. You stay moving onward, like towards what? Towards your purpose. That's really hard. It's so hard. So hard. The ultimate attainment is to be unbothered.

22:36Jeff Byers:Yeah.

22:37Dr. Michael Gervais:Right? Yeah. Now, emotions are part of the ecosystem. And I'm on record saying the Olympics are for big emotions. The Super Bowl is for big emotions. But really, I don't see those two that differently. And I don't see everyday life that differently than the Olympics and the Super Bowl. Life is for big emotions. If you do not know how to work with your emotions, it's a hard life. Let me just kind of ground emotions from feelings. Separate those two things for a minute. Emotions are the physiological experiences that are observable, that you can see in another person. Okay, you can measure emotions.

23:15Dr. Michael Gervais:Feelings are private. They are subjective. It's the way that you are interpreting or making sense of that physiological experience. Okay, physiological experience. What do I mean by that? When you are angry, there will be a tension. There will be a skin color difference. There might be a sweat that comes on board. That also might be fear. That also might be excitement. So the way you're interpreting those physiological observable experiences are feelings. So Anna, anger's cool. I'm not like, oh, it can't be angry. I would love to get your take on how you dealt with anger. I understand there's also a different sandbox.

23:58Dr. Michael Gervais:Little boys and little girls, oftentimes, certainly in the US and many of the Western cultures played in different sandboxes. And in that sandbox, we learn about emotions differently.

24:07Jeff Byers:Yeah.

24:08Dr. Michael Gervais:So I don't know the sandbox that Anna, you played in. I don't know that, of course. But I can kind of dangerously assume that this was not one that you were promoted to express anger.

24:20Jeff Byers:Yeah, I do think society really has taught us anger is really bad. And it's a natural feeling, emotion, et cetera. I believe that. When you are bothered. Yeah, yeah.

24:32Dr. Michael Gervais:That's really, anger is like, I'm bothered by this. Yeah, 100%. And I'm frustrated and I'm intolerant and I'm pissed off or I'm raging or I got wrath or I'm just like annoyed.

24:42Jeff Byers:There's ranges of anger. And what I read in this is like, it doesn't feel like it's okay to be angry. anger. Like, how do I, like, I don't want to outwardly express it or inwardly compartmentalize it. And that's the only things to do, right? In my mind.

24:58Dr. Michael Gervais:Those are the two things that any emotion works.

25:01Jeff Byers:Works. Yeah.

25:02Dr. Michael Gervais:External expression or internal musing, if you will. Yeah.

25:05Jeff Byers:And I think it's okay to feel like, you know, I think she writes here, it's like, it's healthy to feel anger. It is, right? I know that doesn't help anything, but I think it's also creating the practices, right around it. And for me, right? Like I do, I do experience anger.

25:21Dr. Michael Gervais:So do a scale of anger. So just think like for a minute, if you've got a one to 10 scale, rage is 10.

25:28Jeff Byers:Yeah.

25:29Dr. Michael Gervais:Okay. Annoyed is a one.

25:31Jeff Byers:Yeah.

25:32Dr. Michael Gervais:Okay. Anger used as a five, the word anger is a five. Where do you spend? Are you, are you below the five?

25:38Jeff Byers:I'm below five almost always. I get really irritated. Where's pissed off for you? What number? Pissed off is, is probably a five or a six, like really close. No, say anger is five. Oof. Where's ticked off and where's pissed off? I would put pissed off below anger. Interesting. For me, like pissed off is like, one of the things I think that drives my wife crazy is I get over things really fast, right? And I get pissed off or ticked off. Then I'm like, that was stupid. Why did I ever do that? Right? Like take a step back, bigger picture. It doesn't matter. I'm sorry. That was a dumb reaction. And so like anger to me is something that sits.

26:13Dr. Michael Gervais:Oh, there you go.

26:14Jeff Byers:Right. And like Like pissed off is like, Mike, you kicked me in the shins. That was stupid. And you're an asshole. And then I'm like, oh, you kicked me in the shin because I said something I shouldn't have said. Right. Like, I get it. That was, you know, like.

26:27Dr. Michael Gervais:Let's take the lead here because I want to learn from you. And maybe I can add a best practice that I've learned to how to deal with any emotion. Call it anger in this place. Yeah. Okay. Is you get over it quickly. This is good. This is, this is like, go back to Bruce Lee, like mind, like water, trying to be unbothered, kind of going with the flow. but you got caught behind a rock for a little bit too long. Okay, right? But you're fast. You're rolling through the stream, if you will. If you can name your emotion.

26:53Jeff Byers:Yeah, it's important.

26:54Dr. Michael Gervais:That's part one.

26:55Jeff Byers:Yeah.

26:56Dr. Michael Gervais:Yeah. So being aware that you're in a state that you don't really want to spend a long time is always foundational. Awareness is foundational. Then if you can name it, oh man, I'm pissed. This is pissed. And then if you just watch it for a minute, see where it wants to go, you're learning about how your body and your mind are connected to this emotion. That's an awesome practice. And the third is you got to take some sort of, I don't know, pause, like a breath, a reset. Like there's a practice to down-regulate even in that moment. Do you do both those?

27:27Jeff Byers:Yeah, yes. I mean, sometimes I wait too long to pause and breathe, but it happens, right? And we brought in this practice called conscious leadership into our company. And they have this silly saying called above the line, below the line. and the first thing is like, I'm below the line. I'm feeling anger, right? I'm feeling fear. And like, that's like the first thing is you got to train yourself to feel those things. Because once you know, like I'm there, then it's really easy to be like, okay. That's it. That's it. Well, that's awareness. And it's okay to be below the line. It's fine. We're humans.

28:00Jeff Byers:Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're taught it's bad. Yeah. Right? But you know what? Yeah.

28:04Dr. Michael Gervais:Okay. So there's a couple of things like I'm feeling for Anna right now. Yeah. One is like, the point is like, you learned anger in your sandbox and the cultural sandbox of the, certainly where we live, we both live in the United States is like, yeah, anger is not so great, but you know what? If somebody comes into your home and they're a threat to your safety, there's a couple options. Okay. The ultimate option is like totally poised. You are eloquent with how you're handling that situation. Yeah. Cool. Like call that, just call that poised. You could be scared or you could be pissed off. In that moment, what would you choose?

28:40Dr. Michael Gervais:If you can't find the ultimate poise, the eloquence to be able to deal with that moment? I'm running to the fire. Yeah, you'd rather be pissed off. Yeah. In most competitive situations, take any sport you want. If you're going into an environment where the stakes are high and you're not feeling quite right about it, you're not in that poised state, would you choose to play your first rep scared or a little pissed off. Pissed off. Yeah. Anger will facilitate performance better than fear will. Yes. Okay. This is a dangerous game I'm suggesting though. Because if you can't find poise and you feel yourself sliding into the anxiety, fear kind of response, what that does is it tightens us up, makes us smaller, more hesitant.

29:24Dr. Michael Gervais:My suggestion here, and this is again, a little bit of a dangerous fire, is like, wait, hold on. Figure out how to get to another state other than the scared state and maybe angers. Now I'm playing with a dangerous emotion on purpose. I don't think any of us want to stay in a dangerous kind of anger state for very long. So I understand the kind of the subtlety to this. So there is a place for anger. If you stay stuck in that thing, it's problematic. And or you publicly embarrass somebody, you got problems, right? If they're caught in the wrath of your anger and you belittle them, you cut them down, you fill in the blanks, you embarrass them, you have to publicly repair that as well.

30:07Dr. Michael Gervais:If you're publicly embarrassed, you need to publicly repair. And I'm not so sure people come back from it. And when you are angry, you say things that can hurt other people. And I don't think people come back from that easily.

30:19Jeff Byers:It's very hard. That is very hard. We've all said things that we regret, every one of us. And they are. They take a long time to repair. I kind of in this conscious leadership practice that we've had in our business, I've found that fear and anger, I used to think a lot of my fear was anger, right? And I've actually diagnosed a lot of my anger is actually me being scared.

30:40Dr. Michael Gervais:Okay, so you're on a good science here. If we just made emotions really simple and you had four basic emotions and you had a scale of one to 10 on each one of these, by the way, this is good homework for you and your partner. This is good homework for you and your wife. This is good homework for you and your teammates, you and your kids as well. You just draw four kind of primary emotions. And you put on the scale of one to 10, you put a five, and you put the word anger. Okay? That's the anger scale. And then fill in all the hash marks of what words, where does pissed off go?

31:12Jeff Byers:Yeah.

31:12Dr. Michael Gervais:You put it like a four. I put it like a seven. Yeah. Okay? So now we're going to calibrate. Yeah. But we're putting words to the dimension so it's not like I'm angry. So I'd like to say, Lisa, my wife, before we did this work, I'd say, well, what, like, how angry? Yeah. And she goes, I'm pissed. Wait, is that a four or a seven? Yep. Okay, so this is the calibration that's really important. Yeah. Then on the second scale, you put happy as a five. Yeah. And you fill in all the words. Okay? And then scared.

31:36Jeff Byers:Yeah.

31:37Dr. Michael Gervais:Right? And that's a five, and you fill in all the words. Like, the most fear is, like, terrified. Yeah. Okay? And then the last one is sad. Okay? Sad is the last one. Now, what we know is that anger is a secondary color. Anger is the second emotion. When you do the deep work, you realize that anger, there's an emotion that comes before anger. It's something on the sad scale, like, boy, I'm really let down. I'm really hurt, you know? And that's such an agitating, difficult state to be in. it's way more proactive, like I was talking about earlier, to go to express anger because that first one is so tender.

32:18Dr. Michael Gervais:And or you're somewhere on the scared scale, like to your point, which is like, I'm afraid this is going to keep happening. And instead of working from that tender kind of isolated fear-based place, it is socially more acceptable to do something on the anger scale. Yeah. So the problem with it is that it's expensive to run. Anger is a very expensive emotion to run. You can publicly damage another person in the relationship. And if you're not careful, you kind of get stuck in the anger loop as opposed to dealing with the first emotions, which is where the real work happens. So I don't know. Yeah.

32:55Dr. Michael Gervais:Do you think that, yeah. Do you think Anna is going, okay, you said a lot of words, but I'm not sure I feel any better about this?

33:01Jeff Byers:Potentially. But I do think there's only two ways to process anger. It's outward harmful expression, which is how you burn bridges, right? And you create sometimes irreparable damage, right? Or an inward harmful expression. You can inwardly process it and it doesn't have to be a harmful expression.

33:18Dr. Michael Gervais:Yeah. Right.

33:19Jeff Byers:Like that's the thing of like, you can outward or inwardly take the emotion in my mind, but it doesn't have to be a harmful expression inward, right? Yeah. If

33:27Dr. Michael Gervais:you're cutting yourself and being yourself and like, you know, okay. As opposed to like just saying, wow, I'm really pissed off at myself. Huh? Now she asked for a tools. Yeah.

33:37Jeff Byers:Okay.

33:37Dr. Michael Gervais:I did the name it, but there's a second generation mental skills coach called Ken Revisi. You might've remembered Ken Revisi. He passed away a number of years ago, but he had this system called the five R's. It's a little complicated, but it's, it's simple. Okay. So the five R's are how to deal with the emotions or how to deal with an unsettled state. First, recognize.

34:00Jeff Byers:He's talking about be

34:01Dr. Michael Gervais:aware. Are you at what he would do? It's really fun. Are you at a red light? Are you at a yellow light? Or are you at a green light emotionally? Yellow light is like, man, I'm a little shaky, my confidence or whatever. Okay. Recognize. Then release. Take a breath. Release that intensity. Okay. Maybe five breaths, maybe one breath, whatever it is. Release it. Okay. Maybe a yell. Maybe kind of bang your bat. Maybe if you're angry, bang your baseball bat on the grass in a socially appropriate way. Recognize, release, regroup. So get back, talk to yourself, back yourself, get yourself back together.

34:37Dr. Michael Gervais:Pull it together now through self-talk. Recognize, release, regroup, refocus. Take your attention and put it outside of you on the task at hand. Recognize, release, regroup, refocus, respond. Just go let it rip. Go out there and do the thing. So those are the five R's that Ken Reviser introduced as a mental skills practice that I think are pretty practical. And if you can remember the five R's and you can practice the five R's, I think there's really utility in that.

35:04Jeff Byers:Yeah, those are awesome. Yeah.

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36:48Jeff Byers:All right, next one, Mont. And I don't even know what he's talking about here. So can you explain the default mode network, how it works, how it can work for or against us and other resources or practical advice on how to change it to work in our favor? I'm trying to be more optimistic and creative by default instead of worrying. First off, I don't know what the default mode network is and what he's talking about, so.

37:10Dr. Michael Gervais:I love that. Okay, default mode network. It's a mechanism in our brain circuitry that is the default mechanism, okay? And so basically, our brain's dictum is survival. Yeah. More than anything else, right? It's designed to scan the world for dangers, to figure out kind of how to survive this world. So the default mode network is when your brain is kind of at its basic level, it is making sure that you're okay. And so right now, it could be, does Jeff think I'm okay? Am I saying the right things that I want to say? There's this self-referencing network. Am I okay is what we think the default mode network is about.

37:50Dr. Michael Gervais:And I want to put a huge asterisk next to this. The science and research around this is, I don't know, a couple of decades old only. So there's a lot of room here to keep space available for a deeper understanding. I wrote a bunch about it in the book, The First Rule of Mastery, because that self-referencing default mode network, am I okay, is a bit of the culprit to being fully present and being joyful and being connected to other people. Because I've got this thing underneath of me that's saying, does Jeff think I'm okay? Am I okay here? Is this room okay? Am I okay? Is it going to be okay? That it corrupts our ability to be fully present and engage with another person.

38:29Dr. Michael Gervais:Okay. So how do you quiet the default mode network, which is what I think was talking about. Deep focus. So if you're on the side of a cliff and you are kind of hanging on and figuring out survival and your attention is on the next kind of thing that you need to do to figure out that moment, and you're all in in that deep focus because it's a survival kind of thing, you will not have time for the default mode network. What does Jeff think of me right now? Okay. Deep focus like meditation, deep focus on a task at hand, solving a complex problem requires deep focus. So when somebody is deeply focused, we see that their default mode network quiets down.

39:05Dr. Michael Gervais:So deep focus is the kind of the antidote of the wildly reference checking, am I okay? Default mode network.

39:14Jeff Byers:Do you think deep focus, why it's so important is because it ties to purpose, right? When you're in deep focus, it, right? Like for me, when I think, when I hear you say this, right? Like when I am able to deep focus, meditate, right? Step back. I almost always eventually get to purpose. Like, what do I care about? Why am I here? Right? Like that thought process and that deep focus draws me back to purpose, which allows me to not have those questions of like, am I here? Am I good enough? What am I doing? All of that.

39:48Dr. Michael Gervais:Yeah. That's a really, that's eloquent. That's clean. And also let's say that you had a purpose mindset. Let's say you, you and I kind of, as we sat down, The thing that was most important to you was to be connected to your purpose as you're choosing how you're responding to the questions or whatever. And that thing takes up, occupies the majority of your thinking. Okay. It becomes the main reference point. That quiets down the default mode network. And the default mode network's job is, am I okay? and instead of am I okay, the new question, if you have a purpose mindset, which is trainable, is am I aligned?

40:29Yeah?

40:29Dr. Michael Gervais:Yeah. So that's what you're talking about and I think what you were saying is like when you meditate, meditation is an all-in practice of refocusing a thousand times, you know, in 10 minutes.

40:41Jeff Byers:Yeah.

40:41Dr. Michael Gervais:Refocusing back to one thing, maybe a breath, maybe a flickering candle, you know, maybe a mantra, maybe to following your thoughts, whatever, okay. But the all in refocusing back to the thing quiets the default mode network. And eventually it creates more available space for you to be connected to the things that matter purposely more to you. So I would point to like meditation is a good one. Optimism, I don't know how to square default mode network actually with optimism. So I'm going to just kind of squint at that and kind of glaze over. But do you think that that was a value to Manta?

41:17Jeff Byers:Yeah, I think so. So, I mean, first I learned about the default mode network. And it makes sense, right? Like we are millennia's around survival. That's right. And how do we survive? Very rarely do we ever have to actually survive. Like nothing in this room is going to kill us unless something terrible happens. You know? That's right. But it's hard. Like we're wired a certain way.

41:39Dr. Michael Gervais:But the main threat for most people is not that the roof is going to fall. Yeah. The main threat is what is Jeff going to think of me? Yes, exactly. What is Mon going to think of me?

41:47Jeff Byers:Yeah.

41:47Dr. Michael Gervais:And because if we got kicked out of the tribe because of underperformance. And we die. It's a near death sentence, right? Yeah. So that's why we're so designed like the ecosystem to be relational. Yeah. To be cooperative. Fascinating. Yeah. And so this is a mechanism to make sure that we're not blowing it. Yeah. I think the clear takeaway for anyone, including Mons on this, is invest in a practice that supports deep focus. Yeah. And when you recognize, when you're not in the deep focus places, no problem. And when you recognize that you are paying attention to how you're doing, that's fine because it helps your course adjust.

42:25Dr. Michael Gervais:But if it feels like it's overwhelming, just kind of wink at it. Be like, oh, not now. Yeah. Come back to the task at hand. Yeah.

42:33Jeff Byers:Yeah. All right, Claude. I find when I leave Canada for extended travel periods, I suffer from terrible loneliness. Where does that sudden and impelling loneliness come from? Uh, this was one of the first, like when I just skimmed it, like I read loneliness and I was like, oh man. And as it sat on me, I was like, man, uh, I, I do feel lonely too sometimes. Right. And I think we all have different feelings of loneliness. Like when I look back on it, I think this is a really interesting question, right? Like I suffer from terrible loneliness when I leave my home, my place of, of living. And where does that sudden and impelling loneliness come from.

43:14Dr. Michael Gervais:Yeah. I can hear it in your voice too. Like loneliness is, it's hard. It's hard when you feel like you can't manage it.

43:23Jeff Byers:Yeah.

43:24Dr. Michael Gervais:Loneliness is fine. You know, like it's normal moments of feeling loneliness, but when it's enduring, when it's sitting kind of in the, in the bed of everything that you're doing, it's like, so much so that it is on the rise as an epidemic. Death Death by despair is a real thing. Suicide is in the US, there's about 49 ,000 suicides per year. Death by despair is this new category that has emerged, which is people that are so lonely, so desperate in their lives that they are accidentally killing themselves. They're overdosing by accident. To just cope. So let's address loneliness because it's a real thing, especially when we're promised to be more connected through social media and all that stuff, that loneliness by definition is like you're in a public place and you still feel lonely.

44:17Dr. Michael Gervais:Alone is different. Sometimes when you're alone, you don't feel lonely. So the point is like when you're away, I think that this question is when I get out of my environment and I go away, this loneliness thing emerges. The way I hear the question is really framed in when I'm in the grind and I'm kind of doing my thing and I'm hustling, I'm doing whatever the thing is. It's like got enough noise that I don't pay attention to the thing that's underneath the surface, which is this sense of loneliness. Then I travel away and I don't have my familiar kind of practices and my familiar people, my familiar conversations, that there's enough space that that loneliness bubbles up.

45:01Dr. Michael Gervais:And I think the question is really important for this reason is because you're aware of something and you're recognizing a pattern, which is grind to kind of in the hotel room. And when you're in the hotel room, it's telling you something about what you need to work on. So how do you work on loneliness? One, do exactly what we've been talking about in this conversation. Feel it, create the space. Okay. For the next 10 minutes, I'm going to be connected to what's happening inside of me. And if loneliness emerges for that 10 minutes, feel it. You might cry. You might curl up in a ball. You might like have surprising emotions or thoughts that emerge, but you're going to time box it for 10 minutes.

45:43Dr. Michael Gervais:So you're going to train the uncomfortableness of loneliness for 10 minutes. And after that 10 minutes, 15 minutes, 12 minutes, 20 minutes, just time box it. That you say, right, good work. That's good training. I just exercised in this way. And then you kind of just go on to the next thing. But when a loneliness feeling emerges later, you're like, wait, I'm going to actually go get in touch with that tomorrow in my training. So it's not ubiquitous across the entire day. You box it in, in a way that you can train it, get to know it, be connected to it. You can wrestle with it. And it's not bleeding throughout your day.

46:19Dr. Michael Gervais:No different than when you wake up in the morning and you're like, okay, I'm going to exercise later in the afternoon. And it kind of just is sitting all day long. Like, yeah, I got to exercise later. And then you get home at four o 'clock, you're like, I got to exercise, but I just need a break. And just kind of sitting all day long. This is one of the benefits I think of exercising in the morning. It's time box. Yeah. And then it doesn't bleed into my day. Okay. So. And then you don't do it. And then you. And then you feel. If you, if you put it, if your training is in the afternoon versus in the morning.

46:47Dr. Michael Gervais:Yeah. So that's what I'm suggesting is when you time box it and you wrestle with it, you do the thing, it doesn't bleed throughout your day. Same with loneliness. Yes. Yeah, exactly.

46:55Jeff Byers:Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really powerful actually. Yeah. If you just like continue to kick, then you never address it. You never do it. And then you go to bed and you're like, for me, it's like, man, I should have worked out. I had every intention to do it. Yeah, I wanted to. I feel lonely. Yeah, right. Right. That's exactly right.

47:11Dr. Michael Gervais:And Jeff, one more thing on this is that loneliness is one of the symptom clusters for depression. Yeah. So depression is a, it's a real condition. There's nothing to be afraid of. More people know what depression is than you might think.

47:26Jeff Byers:Yeah.

47:27Dr. Michael Gervais:Okay. And so I don't want to just miss that it's part of a cluster of something else as well. It's not just loneliness itself. It could be on a path of depression, okay? Major to minor depression to dysthymia to something that's really kind of like, you know, it's just kind of garden variety down in there. The last thing I want to just hit on this thing is that people that are connected, according to research, people that are connected, they increase their survival odds by like 50%. That's a huge number. So I don't want to scare the lonely person like, yeah, I'm going to die early. But there is evidence that loneliness, there's an increase in mortality rate by like high 20%.

48:08Jeff Byers:Yeah. It's interesting because it sounds like at home, they are great. It's cool. And I mean, who knows what Claude does for work or requires them to be gone for months at a time. And that, to me, makes it feel like they have a real sense of purpose where they're from, right? They have connection. to people. Oh, that's how you hear this. Right? And then when they leave, that whole system that they have is left behind. The people, the things they love, their comforts, the known. And who, like, I, again, don't know who they are, but like, and then it's like, when they leave, it's like the world, right, is not how I expect it to be.

48:45Jeff Byers:And I don't know how to navigate it. And therefore, this is the, you know, what's rattling behind my head. Like nobody here knows me.

48:56Dr. Michael Gervais:Okay. I think you're right. And so I like where you're taking this. And so there's a couple best practices and you'll know these as an elite athlete is when you're in a hotel room, let's just use an example, and you're at another place, it might be really easy to not go outside for a while because you go from your hotel room, you don't have kind of some outside stuff. You go to the office or the setting and it's inside the building or whatever. So you could be totally whacked on circadian rhythm. You'd be totally disconnected from nature, totally connected from sunlight. That is a, like a central nervous system depressant.

49:28Dr. Michael Gervais:So depression, central nervous system is depressed from biological, from psychological, from a lot of things. Oh, you know, what's important? I can't believe I didn't even think of this is that somebody were to come in an athlete or somebody comes in and like, Hey Mike, I'm, I'm really struggling with depression early in my career. I'd be like, okay, let's go to kind of a cognitive behavioral training, you know, let's do best practices for that. Okay, good. I'll be it that the relationship between us is really the fabric of the whole thing. But I don't know, like 10 years in my practice, which was way too late, I was like, wait, hold on.

49:59Dr. Michael Gervais:They might have a pituitary gland issue. There might be a medical thing. They're just calling it depression or loneliness, but maybe their pituitary is not firing. Maybe there's some other stuff that's happening that their central nervous system feels depressed, but it is biologic. It's more organic, if you will, that way, rather than unpsychologic. And so let's not rule that out. And I look at you because there could be some supplementation. There could be some nutrition, dietary things where people are like not feeding their Krebs cycle the right way. They're not feeding, you know, like if somebody were to say to you, I'm depressed.

50:35Dr. Michael Gervais:Okay. I'm not asking for medical advice. Okay. But they're saying I'm depressed. And when you say, would you say, Hey, how's your, how's your vitamin D?

50:43Jeff Byers:Would you say that? No, I would not. But I think like part of it is like what I read and think about this is when you're at home, you have routine and a practice, right? I read that Claude has this. When you're on the road, right? You go out to eat, you order, you don't cook, right? You don't get outside very much. You might just go to the hotel gym by yourself where you have like a workout crew at home. And it's like, how do you, right? Like think about the things that is your community that drives connectivity where you live. And you have to like, it's work, but you have to replicate those things, right?

51:19It's like, hey, I'm on the road.

51:22Jeff Byers:I try to still take all the same nutrition supplements. I try to sleep. Like, I'm like, oh man, you know, I'll stay up and watch a movie tonight because I'm laying in my hotel room. Like, I don't have anything to do. Like no kids, nope. I try to keep a rhythm. And I find myself when I'm on the road, right? There's this terrible habit of like, wake up, go to a hotel gym, you know, hotel breakfast, right. Go to my meetings, come back to the hotel, right. After dinner. And like, there's no space, right. Like nobody's like, oh man, I'm just like relaxing my hotel room. Like I feel like, let's go sit in the lobby.

51:58Jeff Byers:Let's go to the coffee shop. Let's go to like, cause at home, like you have an outdoor space to sit. You have a couch, a living room, a dining room table, and everything just is like there in a hotel room. You live in this 20 by 20 box and it's depressing. It is like, I dislike it a lot. And I'm on the road a ton.

52:14Dr. Michael Gervais:You know, I think you relate to this is that when I'm with a football team and it's camp and camps are a grind, as you know, right? Three weeks of like, it's a grind. Now, when you're done with a long day, all the coaches, most of the coaches at least, and most of the athletes go back to home, wherever the home is. Maybe it's a roommate or maybe it's family. And you know where I would go? Back to my hotel room. by myself.

52:38Jeff Byers:Yeah.

52:39Dr. Michael Gervais:You talk about like being tired and alone. I'm a social creature. I don't want, I don't like going back and just sitting in the hotel room, but I'm like, damn, I don't have anybody.

52:48Jeff Byers:Yeah.

52:49Dr. Michael Gervais:Of course I have this huge amount of space for, for the love I have for my wife and my son, but they're not there. I can call, but it's just a little bit different.

52:59Jeff Byers:Yep.

52:59Dr. Michael Gervais:I relate to this.

53:01Jeff Byers:Yeah. And I think like it's, you guys just got to find what to me. You go to community.

53:06Dr. Michael Gervais:yeah you go to like environmental conditions and community conditions i go to psychological as well you know i want to point to that and i'm also just creating space for biologically you know to make sure that i don't know it's just uh there's not something else yeah i think that's very wise yeah finding mastery is brought to you by linkedin earlier i mentioned linkedin hiring pro and i want to come back to something a little more personal we talk a lot about the people who make extraordinary things possible. And I want to take a moment to acknowledge some of ours. Janelle, Taylor, Alex, Emma, and our newest teammate, Chelsea.

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56:04All right.

56:05Jeff Byers:Next one's from Matthew. I was introduced to finding mastery through a development program at work and the course was genuinely transformative for me. Wow. Thank you. He says, it helped me see how much of my day was being driven by reaction rather than intention. Even with that awareness, I still struggle to protect time for reflection and self-investment when work and life are full. How do you recommend people build a sustainable rhythm that honors both responsibility and personal growth, especially in leadership roles where others depend upon you? I could ask this question. You could have asked that question.

56:42Jeff Byers:A hundred percent. So the question I'll read again, how do you recommend people build a sustainable rhythm that honors both responsibility and personal growth, especially in leadership roles when others depend on you? Like he's struggling to protect time for reflection and self-investment.

56:55Dr. Michael Gervais:Yeah.

56:56Jeff Byers:I love this question. It's awful. I love that. Matthew, I feel you every single day. Lots of times I go to bed, I'm like, man.

57:05Dr. Michael Gervais:You know what's cool, Jeff, is like you're kicking ass in life. You got a healthy family, you got a healthy business you've had like this high performing career before that in sport like you're doing great and and for you to say uh i struggle to have enough kind of reflective time i love hearing that because i understand it too myself and i think most people would say oh of course you know jeff and mike have it all together and like because they're not in the corporate grind or they're not whatever. This is a real thing. So what I do as a best practice for me, and first and foremost, like I've, this is an unfair advantage because I've been studying high performance psychology for, you know, 30 some years or whatever, you know, so it's an unfair advantage of the, the mountaintop I've been able to climb to, to understand all of what goes into living a high performance life.

57:57Dr. Michael Gervais:I know that this simple solution that I'm going to share with you will fall far below the complexity of your unique life. Okay. But the solutions in psychology are relatively simple. What's complex is it uniquely fitting for this individual that I have not met yet. Okay. So here's my, and I want to hear how you deal with it, like to your best. One is I carve out time in the AM to do the work. That is not a new idea. If I miss it, because I don't know, I got to be in the office earlier or I got an early flight or whatever. Then I'm looking for times throughout the day to do it. And if I can't, if I can't do that internal reflective work, I'm not mad at myself.

58:41Dr. Michael Gervais:I used to be like, oh man, I'm gonna, but now I'm like, oh, tomorrow. So what is that internal work? The morning mindset routine, and I'm sure that we can put a little show note link in here to send it to folks. It's a very simple four-step process that is part of every one of my mornings. It's four things I do before I get out of bed. And it's fast. And it's the bare minimum. It's one breath. Maybe if I got some time, it's 20 breaths. It's one breath. I'm in control of this thing, okay? It's one thought of gratitude. It's one clear intention. I'm using mental imagery for the intention. And then I just pull my sheets off and I take a moment to be where my body is.

59:18Dr. Michael Gervais:So then I'm practicing being present. It's those four steps every morning. It's a baseline. And if I can open each one of those up for a handful of moments, I'm winning. But if it's just one, one, one, one, and I'm literally in and out in 90 seconds, okay. Yeah. All right. So I just need to just say that I really appreciate it because I think we have this idea that we're supposed to be doing everything at full tilt. Sometimes it's just a 90 second training for me.

59:48Jeff Byers:Yeah. How about for you? I feel like I'm not quite in the phase of, it's okay, you didn't do that today. Like you are. I, a lot of days I'm like, son of a, I like, why didn't I spend 30 seconds on myself? One of the things I really realized, and this was about two years ago is like, I needed like, not like a 30 seconds today. I need like a three day get out of my chaos. That is Jeff, a father and husband, Jeff, right? The CEO, co-founder, right? Not that. Like go somewhere and do something that is very out of my normal. And that deep grind that I've found, right? It's always outdoors. It's always physical in the back country, in remote places where there isn't distraction, right?

1:00:39Jeff Byers:I literally have to create an environment where I can't be distracted. And it honestly takes me a little while to get out of my own, right? Work mind, family mind. What can I do for the inward reflection? I found that if I do that once a quarter, it's really healthy for me. And that's like, it's kind of like a Masagi, right? Like a long, hard adventure where it's like, my body's tired, my mind's tired, and I'm not thinking about work. Like I am a little bit, right? Because my mind is wandering, but I got to give it space on it. And then, yeah.

1:01:12Dr. Michael Gervais:Yeah. Matthew asked, like, how do you recommend people develop this?

1:01:16Jeff Byers:Yeah.

1:01:16Dr. Michael Gervais:And you and I are both answering in slightly different ways, but the same commonality is to schedule it.

1:01:22Jeff Byers:Yes.

1:01:23Dr. Michael Gervais:So get ahead of the calendar. Schedule it quarterly. Yeah. Like the three-day or annually. I don't know what it is, but like really schedule it. And now, you know, beginning of the year type of stuff, like cool, like get it. Think about you've got another handful of months, you know, schedule it. My alarm goes off or my wife's alarm goes off. And then we purposely hit the snooze button. That's six minutes. Now I'm not falling back asleep. Trying not to. 95 % of the time. That's my six minutes to go do some internal work. So I'm scheduling it and it's small. It's tiny. It's deliverable. It's habit building.

1:02:00Dr. Michael Gervais:Start small, celebrate. So here's another thing for Matthew is that when you schedule the thing, your three-day, just scheduled it. You've put it in the calendar. Celebrate like a wild person.

1:02:11Jeff Byers:Yeah.

1:02:11Dr. Michael Gervais:Okay. So you're pairing this wonderful feeling with the first act. And then when you buy the ticket. Like celebrate like a wild person. Talk about it. Like back yourself, like have fun with it. Now on my path, I just do like one breath, celebrate. Like, that's right. I'm a little bit better today. So I am trying to pair positive states with the actions that I want more of.

1:02:32Jeff Byers:Yeah. Yeah. So one of the things that does help me on this is right. I'm like the sticky note person on that. Right. Oh, you do. The athlete, you know, of like, I'll write something. like I used to write things on my wrist tape of like what I wanted to, like, what is my intention? You did. Right. And I wrote attitude and effort almost consistently of like, because of those things you can control. And one of the things that, right, I've done around this of like, I don't know if it's helping me with more time for reflection or self-investment, but it's more of this reminder is like be, I think Courtney Thompson said this, who you introduced, like be where your feet are.

1:03:12Jeff Byers:Yeah. Right. It's like this reminder. It's okay to be where you are, right? Like stop chasing.

1:03:18Dr. Michael Gervais:It's a requirement. It's a requirement. It's a requirement. Right.

1:03:21Jeff Byers:But it's like, oh man, I wish I had time. And it's like, no, I'm in this meeting. Right now. Or like, oh, I have 30 seconds to do it. Right now. Do it right now.

1:03:30Dr. Michael Gervais:And then when you do it right now, I'm going to pair it with that other kind of best practice for creating sustainable habits is celebrate like a wild person. Like, oh, I just did it. I'm doing it. Great.

1:03:38Jeff Byers:Yeah.

1:03:39Dr. Michael Gervais:Over time, the celebration is not necessary.

1:03:41Jeff Byers:Yeah.

1:03:42Dr. Michael Gervais:Because you're just in it. And that is the inherent reward itself. So yes, yes, yes.

1:03:48Jeff Byers:But I also think what is so important, Matthew, with this is just like, you just knowing that you struggle to protect time to do it is like incredibly important. Like the self-awareness to have that, hey, I want to do more time for reflection and self-investment is like 95 % of the battle. It's like have that space to know you need to do it. And now it's just the action of it.

1:04:11Dr. Michael Gervais:And I'll just kind of wrap it up is that schedule it. Yeah. Is it 90 seconds in the morning? Is it a three day, once a month, once a year, whatever it might be. And that's kind of like using the planning part of you to invest in the things. You don't, it doesn't need to be massive.

1:04:27Jeff Byers:Yeah.

1:04:27Dr. Michael Gervais:But it might grow. Yeah. It just might grow. And I'll leave with one story is that the CEO of AT &T, I hosted him at the Seattle Seahawks game. And so we're on the sidelines and the stadium is 68 ,000 people at the Seahawks, as you know. And so we're standing there, it's starting to fill up. And I looked up and I said, hey, how many people do you indirectly manage? And he looked up and he said, how many people are here? I said, 68 ,000. And he says, four times up. Oh, okay. And I said, I looked at him. I said, John, really? And he goes, yeah. And I go, oh, and it clicked because earlier in the day, he was talking to me about his practice.

1:05:07Dr. Michael Gervais:So his morning practice, he started with a 10-minute meditation. And he's like, man, that was good. After that 10 minute, I just kind of felt better, okay? And then he said, so I doubled it to see what the experiment would yield. Man, my emails were better, my conversations, I was more switched on. So I'm at 20 minutes a day, Mike, and it's pretty good. He says, I got up to four hours a day. Of meditation? Not a meditation, of like internal work in the morning. So reading some stuff, his was meditation and prayer, writing some stuff. I go, four hours? that's half a work day for most people. He goes, yeah, I work, you know, I work 10 hour days, no problem.

1:05:42Dr. Michael Gervais:He goes, but I was so much better in my remaining six hours of the day. I was crushing it. And he says, I became bedrock for people as opposed to surface crust. Daunting. I'm not at four hours a day of the internal investment, but I point to like - Nobody's busier than he is.

1:06:02Jeff Byers:No, exactly. Right, like - Exactly. I mean, when you say I manage four times 68 ,000 people.

1:06:08Dr. Michael Gervais:320 ,000 people.

1:06:09Jeff Byers:I'm just like, oh man. Yeah. Man, I think I got, I think it's hard here.

1:06:14Dr. Michael Gervais:Well, to be fair, he's got probably 12 direct reports.

1:06:16Jeff Byers:Yeah. But it doesn't matter. That's cascaded. I don't have like, I have the same probably direct reports as he does. That's exactly right. Yeah. I'm not responsible for 300 ,000 plus souls. Isn't that amazing? And their livelihood.

1:06:28Dr. Michael Gervais:Maybe even more importantly that he was doing the internal work. 100%. And I'll just start that story one more time. is that he started with 10 minutes and he liked how efficient and how good he felt. So he kept doubling. So anyways, Jeff, this is awesome. Congratulations on how you're designing your life. Thank you for being a great co-host to the AMA here. And congratulations on like what you're building at Momentus. We love the partnership and I feel really safe with what you put into your products. So thank you.

1:06:55Jeff Byers:Thank you. Awesome to be here. Next time on Finding Mastery, we're joined by Michelle Kari, creator and host of Challenge Accepted, the hit YouTube series where Michelle trains with elite performers to take on some of the world's toughest physical and psychological challenges. In this conversation, Mike and Michelle explore what separates preparation from bravado, why courage is a system, not a personality trait, and how Michelle has built a serious, sustainable business in the creator economy without burning out. Join us Wednesday, March 11th, 9am Pacific, only on Finding Mastery. All right.

1:07:33Dr. Michael Gervais:Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, We have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up.

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1:08:45Dr. Michael Gervais:Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your health care providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.