How to Build (and Repair) Love: The Gottmans on What Every Couple Should Know

23:41Dr. John Gottman:Incredible. That's it. That's all it takes to turn towards a bid. So what I'm doing there, you saw John, when I first pointed out the bird, I was just looking to share a moment with him.

23:58Dr. Michael Gervais:And you're saying that's the bid? That was the bid. I've had this wrong for years. Okay. I'm so glad we had this go. Because I've been thinking the bid was, it took place as the first kind of entry into repair. I thought what she did was the bid, and then they're going to have a conversation later that was going to deepen the repair. And that's, I don't have it right. Okay. Awesome. So bids for connection are much bigger than that. So they include bids for shared interest in something. That's what I was doing just then. A bid may be making a request. Honey, would you please clean the counters in the kitchen?

24:45That's a bid. A bid also can be much deeper. Like, honey, I'm having a terrible time dealing with this relationship. I really need you to talk with me about it. Would you please? Can we make some time to do that? Is that okay? Yeah, that'd be fine. See, there you go. So those are all bids for connection.

25:11Dr. Michael Gervais:You have a second career waiting for you. Like you guys should take this on the road, which I know you have quite a bit. All right. So bids for attention, bids for connection. and really what we're looking for is a response right is that is that what we're turning toward we're looking for a particular kind of response that we call turning toward which is typically affirming of the other person so joining the other person if they're asking to share a moment where they're interested in something. It can be a response of, yes, sure, I'll do that. A positive response might even look like this. Honey, I don't have time to do this right now, but I promise you I'll get it done before the end of the day.

26:08Dr. Michael Gervais:You always say that. And honestly, I'm starting to think that you don't really want to do it. You're just saying that because you know that it's the nice thing to say. Okay. Well, I can understand you feeling that way because I've let you down many times. But right now, I really truthfully am saying, I promise to do this task you've asked me to do. So see what happens. You know, I'm really glad that you bring this up because honestly, I feel like every time I'm into something and I'm doing something that requires a lot of focus, it's like you're kind of needy. And it's like, I know we're doing the bid thing, but I think you're overbidding.

27:02Okay. So I'm going to step out of roll for a minute.

27:06Dr. Michael Gervais:Oh, come on. It was almost so good. It was almost there, Julie. That was a criticism. Yeah, that's right. It was a criticism. That's where I was going. I'll go back into role. So, you know, Mike, I'm feeling really defensive right now. Can you say what you want to say in another way? Okay. Well, I feel like when I am really trying to focus on something that I want to be there for you, but it feels like there's another game that's being played. and I'm really agitated by it. Can you help me understand what you mean by another game? It's like when I'm deeply into something, those are the times that I feel like you want my attention most.

27:54Dr. Michael Gervais:And I don't know, I just don't quite understand what's going on. Like, you know, I'm focusing. You know, I need to get this thing done. And, you know, I'm writing right now or whatever. And it's, I don't know, I just feel exhausted by it. Wow. So let me make sure I'm understanding you correctly. You're saying that it seems to you that when you are focusing the most on something, something that you are doing, it seems to you that I approach you particularly at those times to get your attention? Julie, that's the way it feels to me. Yep. Oh, God, what a drag. That must feel pretty crummy because you're divided between.

28:41Yeah, that's what I've been trying to tell you.

28:43Dr. Michael Gervais:That's what I've been trying. Like all this time, that's exactly what I've been saying. It's like, I want to spend time with you, but like, not now. home. Okay. So tell me what would be, um, what would be the ideal for you? If I have something that I am needing to share with you and at the same time, you're really focused on another task, what would work better for you? I think you got to be better at reading the cues. And I know you want me to say what I need, but like, I just need you to like, know when I'm, how about I do this when I put my headphones on it's like I'm in I'm trying to get in my zone you know that's perfect that'll be a great signal to me that this is a time just for you to be focused on what you're choosing to focus on and I should give you that space is that right that would be a great signal to tell me that cool that that was it's all pull out now Julie that that was like that feels like the normal kind of circular thing that could happen.

29:51Dr. Michael Gervais:Like I went to irritation, frustration, blaming, pointing finger, you know, criticism and defensiveness is what we're stuck in. And you pulled us out of it. And can you tell, can you, can you describe what you were doing to be able to do that? Yes. Because yeah, this is the takeaway, right? What you're about to say is, is going to be gold. And so if you explain this for folks, maybe silver, not quite. Okay. Actually, I think this is more, you guys know this. This is where people get stuck. Defensiveness, critique, defensive, and like it's the spiral snake eating its tail. And then it gets like, then frustration is part of it in a way that it's like, what are we doing?

30:30Dr. Michael Gervais:Why do we keep having this conversation? Right. Okay. Okay. So here are the, here are the steps that I took during that conversation to change the course of where it was going. First of all, when you spoke your first criticism of me, you're too needy, you know, basically, I took the feeling I had, which was ouch. And I turned it into, I'm feeling defensive. So rather than going defensive and getting angry about what you said, instead, I described what I was feeling. I'm feeling defensive. That's part of it. And then asked if you could rephrase what you said that wouldn't make me defensive, basically.

31:28That was the first. Then, let's see. Then I think you started getting frustrated and a little bit angry. And what I did then, I realized, wow, this is really a big deal for you. I could tell that from how you were feeling. And so I moved to another skill, which is to summarize what I heard you saying and not only summarize it, but give it some validation. There's gold number two. Validation means from your point of view, I could see how you feel that way. That makes sense to me. I step into your shoes. I empathize, try to, with what you may be feeling. And I think to myself, yeah, if I were him, I might feel the same way.

32:34So I say that to give you some validation. And validation is one of the biggest tools that calms down the conversation. And you might note, you calmed down after that. The frustration vanished. I checked it with you. Did I get it right? Make sure I heard it correctly. And then I asked you for what you needed. and that was my being open to you having needs not just me having needs but you having needs and sorting out um the nugget of what lay inside our difficulty connecting with one another when And you were focusing on something else. Okay.

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35:20Dr. Michael Gervais:And with that, let's jump right back into our conversation. I'll double down, not silver, gold, like, like gold. And the reason it's so powerful to me is because like, I was acting like a child and you held the adult framing or the adult space, like, hold on, I don't need to get every one of my needs met. And I just got triggered by, you know, the ouch type of thing that you talked about when I was being critical. And you said, and, but what you did is you didn't respond from the emotion, but you made sure that you were acknowledging the emotion and then sharing the emotion rather than lashing out or retreating from.

35:59How long does it take to get not even great, but just good at this?

36:05Dr. Michael Gervais:Because emotions are so raw and big and overwhelming to so many of us. How long does it take to get good and how do we practice? That's a quick question. First of all, let me just note something that I want to correct. You said I started acting childish. So let me just say for your listeners that what you were expressing wasn't childlike at all. It wasn't childlike. You were, you know, we had uncovered something that was really frustrating. And yes, you are entitled to get your needs met. So am I. and sometimes we've got to work out how that's going to look so needs are not childlike wanting your needs to be fulfilled is not childlike uh it's normal it's human we all have needs every single one of us so how long does it take to learn to do what i was doing I don't know I think it depends on how much you practice

37:22Dr. John Gottman:Well we do it with guests and we do it with friends all the time Good point So we have those skills when a friend comes over and spills the wine all over your tablecloth you don't say get out, you ruined my tablecloth you say hey, that happens can I get you another glass of wine You know, we're kind and generous towards strangers and friends. And so I think we have the skills. It's a matter of really in the moment, just listening. You know, there's a let me give you just another very, very, very simple formula that encapsulates all of this, that people can just brand on their forehead. describe yourself don't describe your partner simple as that describe yourself just i i i describe your feelings describe your needs when you slip into describing your partner especially when you're upset or angry then you move into criticism you're so lazy you're so selfish.

38:36You're so needy. You, you. That's not going to work. So you start, if you want to bring up a problem with your partner, you describe yourself. I'm feeling what? I'm feeling frustrated. I'm feeling angry. About what? What's the situation? Not the character trait of your partner. What's the situation? I'm upset that the bills haven't been paid yet. That's the situation. Then you ask for what you need, the positive need, meaning how can your partner shine for you? It's not what you don't want them to do. You ask for what you do want them to do. awesome

39:25Dr. John Gottman:can I add something here the original idea of being a great listener was really flawed I think that's part of the problem so the original idea of being a great listener was to say I feel something when you do something so it turns it back on you So I say, I feel angry when you are too needy. So it turns out to be an attack. It's not really listening. And listening has to not have that attack in it. It has to say, you know, I really feel angry when I'm concentrating and, you know, I get interrupted by your needs. Right.

40:11Dr. Michael Gervais:I feel sad when you keep doing this. Yeah, that's not that. That is not the recipe here or the prescription.

40:20Dr. John Gottman:Exactly. Yeah. Right. Right. So taking your situation here would have been a way to say it right from the get go. I feel frustrated when I'm focusing on a task and something pulls me away from it. And I just want to stay focused on it. Cool. There's no attack, you see. There's no, yep. Right. What we found in our research were there were four big predictors of relationship demise over the years because we followed couples for as long as 20 years to see what would happen to their relationships and videotaped them. We took physiological measures like heart rate. We took how much they sweated in their palms and so on.

41:18And then we brought them back every few years to see what happened to their relationship. So we learned there were four big predictors. One, criticism. So criticism means blaming your partner, some character trait of your partner for the problem that exists between you. And there's where the words like lazy, selfish, mean, blah, blah, blah. You always. You always and you never. Those are also criticisms, interestingly enough, because they imply a personality trait. You always forget to do the dishes, you know, whatever. So that's criticism. The second one we saw, defensiveness. And defensiveness is a way of warding off an attack, what feels like an attack, by either counterattacking, oh yeah, well, you haven't cleaned out the garage, counterattacking, or whining.

42:25Oh, yeah? Well, I did the dishes last night. Right? That's defensiveness. The third is contempt. And Mike, that one is like sulfuric acid for a relationship. It's the very worst of the big predictors. What it is, is looking down on your partner from a place of superiority and treating them with a little disgust and scorn.

42:59Dr. Michael Gervais:And it can be a look. It can be a look of disdain. That's right.

43:05Dr. John Gottman:Rolling your eyes.

43:06Dr. Michael Gervais:You don't have to drop the F-bomb. You don't have to use the hate word. You can look at somebody cut right through every word of disdain and contempt. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Is that, can it, when that happens, if that happens a lot, is that, is it like, probably should get a divorce if you guys can't figure this thing out? Like, is it, is it that? I think, but they need therapy. Correct. You know, um, people, uh, who were doing a lot of that are going to have a lot of emotional injuries in the relationship, a lot of pain, Lots and lots of pain. In fact, we found that the number of contempt expressions a partner hears in 15 minutes not only predicts how badly the relationship will go, it also correlates with how many infectious illnesses the listener will have in the coming year.

44:08Dr. Michael Gervais:Meaning... Oh, I've missed that bit of your research. That's phenomenal. Contains, destroys the immune system. How about that? Isn't that amazing? And just to be clear, it's not like you randomly would measure 15 minutes. You'd give them something to wrestle with. You give them something emotionally charging to think through. Mm-hmm. And talk about, try and solve. can talk about yeah and then inside of 15 minutes and like what kind of numbers are we talking about like is this four contempts experiences or is this like 14 sometimes it's even the way a conversation

44:48Dr. John Gottman:about how the day went begins i remember this one guy who said um why don't you talk about your day It won't take you very long. Oh, geez. Oh, my God.

45:03Dr. Michael Gervais:How do you guys keep it together? Honestly, I mean, I know like you've got to come from some real compassion, you know, because when somebody says like that, something like to me, I'm like, guys, like, do you actually think this is going to work? They're not thinking about what's going to work. You know, they're feeling bitter. They're feeling angry. Perhaps they've gone through a lot of attack within the relationship that's taken them to that place.

45:34Dr. John Gottman:Or they come from a family where there's a lot of contempt and disdain.

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48:28Dr. Michael Gervais:And with that, let's jump right back into our conversation. My wife and I, we come from loud families. My wife is Latin, Cuban, identifies most with her Cuban descent. and um i've got some irish italian uh i identify mostly with italian and so we'll get loud and like it's fiery and we almost like yeah it gets loud and then we can like we can look at each other but okay okay okay okay you know what and there's a there's a repair that takes place i think that's one of the reasons we've done well and we've done a lot of um relationship work ourselves um like with a radical therapist that just held us at the highest standard and was loving and warm and knew her stuff.

49:10Dr. Michael Gervais:I'm sure she knew your work intimately. And so what do you say to folks that get loud and have kind of that emotional flair? It's a cultural thing and it's also a style of communication. What do you say to those folks, me in particular? Okay. Well, so we address three of the four big predictors. The fourth one is called stonewalling. But let's talk about what stonewalling is and what's behind it, which relates to your question. So stonewalling means during the middle of a conversation, one partner gets so upset that they shut down, they withdraw, and they act like a stonewall. They don't give any responses, any facial expression, no eye connection, no words, nothing.

50:03There's just nothing there. And it's not for a few seconds, might be for a few minutes. That's stonewalling, which is very upsetting to the other partner. But what we discovered is that inside people who stonewalled, they were getting what we call flooded. And flooded means you're feeling so attacked that your heart rate is over 100 beats a minute, right? And you'd rather be, as John likes to say, you'd rather be on Pluto than in the room talking to your partner. And that is a state, actually, in which blood is moving out of the front of your brain back behind it to the part of the brain that controls movement, the motor cortex.

50:59And as a result, you can't hear well. You can't problem solve. You're going to feel attacked even if your partner lovingly says, honey, I really love you. You've got tunnel vision and tunnel hearing. Everything feels like an attack. And what you have to do then is ask your partner to take a break. Can we just take a break? And tell your partner, this is very important, when you will come back to talk again. So your partner isn't just left hanging, wondering if you will ever discuss this topic again. So you say when you'll come back. It shouldn't be any shorter than about 20 minutes to a half an hour, no longer than 24 hours.

51:52And during the break, you do not think about the fight. Do not. otherwise you'll stay physiologically aroused. What you have to do instead is something that's self-soothing. And that can be reading a book, reading a magazine, listening to music, going on YouTube. It might be going even for a run because there are different physical dynamics involved. Just something that really takes your mind off the fight and allows your body to metabolize the stress hormones you've released in your body so that you can calm down and then return at the time you said you would to continue in a calm state. Are you done?

52:40Dr. John Gottman:Can I say something here? I want to talk to that Irish-Italian-Cuban cultural thing. And, you know, before we did this research in the laboratory, therapists thought there was an ideal way to talk about conflict. And it involved staying calm, being rational, listening well, you know, low key. And that turned out to be completely wrong. In fact, you know, there are people who are very emotionally expressive and, you know, and that's fine. It works well, as long as you're not attacking your partner's character. You're not doing the four horsemen. And then there are some people who are really, you know, they're so laid back that, you know, they just don't get upset by anything.

53:31Dr. John Gottman:They're really, they avoid conflict whenever they can. And that's fine, too. That works also. And, you know, and there are people in between. So these cultural differences turn out to be unimportant. It's really the way you connect with one another and feeling like your partner is actually on your side. You're working on a problem together, like you're pushing the ball uphill together. And it doesn't matter if you do it calmly or you do it with a lot of emotion, as long as you're not enemies attacking one another.

54:11Dr. Michael Gervais:I, I, I love that you've added that because I'm just, I think my, my style and I, not, not that this is materially important in the conversation, but I, I'm, I'm really mellow, really mellow in intimate or fiery conversations. Like I just kind of, I have that ability. And then all of a sudden I feel like I get thrown off a cliff. Like I, like I lose my, and all of a sudden my voice gets up, but it's, it takes a long time. And what I've done my early life, and I hope people listening can appreciate this earlier in my life, I didn't do well with criticism and like I just didn't have the skill. And this is why I'm saying to you guys both, thank you, because like your work materially changed my life and probably what was definitely in the DNA of what saved my wife's and my relationship.

55:02Dr. Michael Gervais:And and now like that, it's the same style. It's like really slow. and then all of a sudden I get cranked up and she's not surprised by it. It's okay. You know, and then, but what I don't do is I don't talk about her. I talk about my experience and now she's not on her heels. We're pushing the ball uphill together. And I just want to tell you guys, um, I blew it this morning. I'm listening. I know your science. We, I, we jumped out of, um, Um, um, my son and I, uh, my, my wife, uh, myself and my son, we dropped them off at school. Uh, we get back to the house, our dog's in the car as well. And I was kind of rushing to get to my first meeting.

55:43Dr. Michael Gervais:And so I jumped out of the car and usually it's like, Hey babe, will you get, we grabbed the dog, you know, or it's like, Hey, I got the dog. Um, whatever. Like we're, we're just communicating on, I jumped out of the car, like a selfish, you know, whatever kind of ran into the house. Cause I wanted to get my stuff and get back out and get my car and take off to the office. And, uh, she said something under her breath and I go, Oh God, I'm in trouble. And I looked and I was like, what, I'm halfway into the house. I'm like, Oh my God, what am I doing? And so I said, I'm sorry. You know, like that.

56:11Dr. Michael Gervais:And she's still processing it. Like that was really rude. And she was right. And, and then, so I'm coming downstairs from grabbing my stuff and I look and she's grabbing, um, a dog bag to pick up the dog's mess. And I'm like, I really screwed this up. Not only is she like, literally she's having to pick up after the dog. And so I sent her an emoji once I got to the office. I didn't do the immediate repair bidding. And I sent an emoji of a panda bear. And that's our little code word. We're trying to be more like panda bears. They just play and they roll and they're fun and they're not threatened by stuff.

56:48Dr. Michael Gervais:They're just more playful and big. And so I got a heart emoji back. And so the repair worked. So the repair worked. But I literally was like. Oh, but you know what? You're a human being, Mike. Oh, yeah. How about it? And you're not selfish. You were maybe a little forgetful and you ran. And we all do stuff like that all the time. John and I do stuff like that as well as worse stuff. You know, we're always making mistakes. Everybody does. And that's why in our research, the biggest, biggest difference between couples who succeeded, couples who did not, was the successful ones made repairs. They made repairs after their mistakes.

57:38And the sooner they did that, the better. So look at you. You did everything right. Right? As soon as you got to the office, you made a repair. and she accepted the repair and boom, it's gone. So that's terrific. You cleared the channel between you. Nice job.

57:58Dr. Michael Gervais:So, okay. You guys are great. I love that you bring into the conversation, like, you know, you guys make all the mistakes as well. Minimizing the mistakes, yet not eliminating them necessarily. But like, I don't, when I say I'm sorry, like I didn't know really how to do it earlier. and I really, it's a promise that I'm making to not do that shit again. Whatever that thing is, I'm going to do my absolute best to not kind of step back into this pattern. And I'm not perfect there. Of course, nobody is. But I really mean it when I say it. So that's taken us a long way.

58:35Dr. John Gottman:Yeah, I think that's a very important thing. I mean, all the failures that I've seen in being a therapist, it always comes back to that, that, you know, the couples that fail, one person is really not willing to take any responsibility for their side in the miscommunications. And that invariably makes therapy fail, I think.

59:04Dr. Michael Gervais:Before we end, I mean, again, amazing. And I know you guys wrote the book, eight dates which interestingly enough um our producer of this podcast read it and um you know it it was the trigger for him to realize that he wasn't in the right relationship and um that's it was so powerful in in the in the mastery lab like you guys have made a dent here now. And so can you, can you just talk through like just quick high overview of eight dates? Cause I highly recommend it. I saw it work really in a powerful way for him. And so can you just quickly hit that? And, um, and then maybe like, what should Lisa and I do tonight?

59:53Dr. Michael Gervais:Like the repair is kind of done like a heart, you know, but like, so there's a two parter eight dates and then super actionable what Lisa and I can do as a proxy for what anyone that is wanting to be better in their relationships do tonight. Yeah.

1:00:09Dr. John Gottman:One of the reasons we wrote the Eight Dates book was because a study was done in the Sloan Center at UCLA of dual career couples in Los Angeles. And these were couples that had children and two careers. And what happened was that they just completely ignored the relationship. The relationships had devolved into just this long to-do list that they were getting through together. And they had neglected romance and fun and play and adventure and really kind of sitting down with one another and saying, hey baby, how's life treating you? How are you doing? And so we wanted to create these eight dates so we field tested these dates where people were prepared for the date and think about questions they wanted to ask their partner on the date to really get those conversations to have some meaning.

1:01:08So let me say a little more about eight dates and then the other question. So what eight dates is, is a roadmap for essential conversations couples might want to have, especially either newer couples or couples who've been together a really long time, but they haven't stayed close. They've gotten more distant from one another. And we had seen a zillion couples like that, which is why we wrote this book. So with each date, you are given a topic to think about, and then on the date, some questions to address with your partner to talk about. And their questions, each chapter is about a particular topic with questions to discuss pertaining to that topic.

1:02:05Some of the topics include things like trust, you know, what tells you that somebody is trustworthy. How do you like conflict to be handled? So conflict is another one. Not to have a conflict, but if there's a conflict, how do you want it to be handled? We talk about parenting. We talk about sex. uh there's also um play and adventure what ways you really like to play um let's see there's one on uh spirituality money and money right uh money is another biggie so each topic is really a way for couples to explore their values, their needs, their experiences, and share those with one another pertaining to each of those topics.

1:03:06That's eight dates. Now, your second question, what can you and Lisa do tonight? This is one thing that you can do, and it's part of our love prescription book. And that is go home and focus entirely on what your partner is doing right. Not what they're doing wrong. What are they doing right? Every single thing, whether it's doing the dishes, whether it's making coffee, whether it's It's helping your son with his homework, you know, whatever it is. And say thank you. Every time you partner, I'm on it.

1:03:53Dr. Michael Gervais:Thing right. You know, it'd be fun. And maybe you guys have done this. I just haven't seen it. It'd be fun if like we could pull our community together and like, and like do a worldwide kind of like catch what's good with your partner day or week and capture that in some way. you know, socially, like there's something here that would be, um, it would really move a needle. Um, but a great little experiment. That'd be beautiful. Yeah. You guys are awesome. Yeah, it is. Maybe we talk about it offline in some kind of way, but like you guys are awesome. Thank you for being so sound in your science and your research and making it applicable to, to all of us.

1:04:33Dr. Michael Gervais:And I just want to say, um, I can't wait to see what you guys do next. And I want to encourage folks that are, you know, part of the Finding Mastery community here to go get these books. And I don't know if your lectures are available to be purchased. I know that as a professional, I was able to be part of your trainings, but where do you want to drive people to? Sure. People can go to www.gotsman.com. That's G-O-T-T-M-A-N.com. And there's lots and lots and lots of stuff that they can find, including actually a software platform people can go to, to learn all the interventions, to hear little snippets of information and lectures about how to fight well, how to have great intimacy, etc.

1:05:29It's all there on that software platform. And last but not least, we've just finished a book that I think will be called Fight Right. And that'll be coming out in, I don't know, as long as it takes to print. Valentine's Day. Valentine's Day. Valentine's Day.

1:05:50Dr. Michael Gervais:That's awesome. Yeah. Good. Well, hopefully we can have you back on to learn those insights that you're sharing there as well. Thank you, Mike. Thank you. This was a great interview. It was very successful. Thank you. That's so good. You guys are great. Good job. Good job. So how about this? How's an ending? Before we go, in one sentence, maybe even a word, what is love? Well, first of all, we like to say love is a verb. It's not a noun. It's a verb. And it means placing your partner's feelings, needs, and dreams as either as important as your own or at times more important than your own and treating your partner accordingly.

1:06:40That is brilliant.

1:06:42Dr. Michael Gervais:Thank you. All right. So on to love, on to the next. And I'm wishing you guys absolutely the very best. again, thank you for making such a big dent. And John, like maybe I think I might have stepped on your words with the delay here. Did you want to add or did you?

1:06:58Dr. John Gottman:No, her definition was perfect.

1:07:01Dr. Michael Gervais:Yeah, it was, wasn't it? Okay. Thank you guys for making such a massive dent in the world. And I really appreciate it. Thank you, Mike. Thank you, Mike. It was a great interview. Next time on Finding Mastery, we're kicking off 2026 with Cal Newport, best-selling author of Deep Work and Slow Productivity, for a conversation that will completely change how you think about focus, busyness, and what real productivity looks like. Cal and Mike break down why doing less can lead to better work, how constant distraction is quietly draining us, and what it really takes to protect your attention in a noisy world.

1:07:40If you're ready to start the new year with more clarity, more focus, and a smarter way to work, this is the perfect place to begin. So join us Wednesday, January 7th at 9am Pacific and a happy new year from all of us here at Finding Mastery.

1:08:17Dr. Michael Gervais:If you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals at finding mastery dot com slash sponsors.

1:08:52Dr. Michael Gervais:And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional.

1:09:28Dr. Michael Gervais:So seek assistance from your health care providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring. Come on.