Millions Watched Me Dance — No One Saw My Trauma I Derek Hough

25:12Dr. Michael Gervais:So this is a little bit of a circuit. Yeah. And somehow they saw you at 12. Yeah. I was in their class, and they always described me as being sort of like the eager beaver. I was like, you know, up front asking the questions and answering the questions. And I was in the adult class. Like I just, I wanted to like. Oh, so you had a spark at a young age. Yeah. Oh man. Yeah. I was, I was, once I was hooked on it, I wanted to become great at it. And, and I also knew that when they came, I felt like there was a shift that I was getting some different type of information I've never got before. They spoke the language.

25:46They were, it was just like, whoa. And after even just like a few hours of working with them, I just felt like instantly better.

25:52Dr. Michael Gervais:So for folks that don't know, I mean, this is like, I don't know, the Michael Jordan coming into town absolutely right and so for ballroom be specific and so would you say that this is a little provocative but are they masters of craft or are they extraordinarily high performers i would honestly i would honestly say masters of craft because and for different reasons too their dynamic is very interesting their story as a whole that's a whole other episode trust me Shirley Ballas was a world champion at age 19 years old she's extraordinary even to this day she's in her mid-60s and she can hang she can dance so she's got foundation she's phenomenal yeah she's phenomenal she's always had that like understanding but also the ability to actually show it and to dance it and to demonstrate it which a lot of teachers aren't able to do those three parts and understanding ability and then expression yes okay all of those things she can do because oftentimes you know teachers have a lot of wisdom they have a lot of you know knowledge they can't necessarily demonstrate she had the ability to demonstrate to show you as well he is his journey was extraordinary because when they met he was a beginner and she was a world champion and he was a beginner so when they got together it was this he he experienced the long road to get to where he needed to get you know and people saying that he wasn't good and that what is she doing dancing with this beginner when you're a world champion and it was this crazy dynamic oh as a partner even as a partner and so it took her 12 years to get back to being first again because she changed a partner because they fell in love and they became dance partners oh so a first principle for her was to do it with the people that you love over the people that will help you win so their dynamic as a as champions and as a couple were, he's from Texas, she's English.

27:53It was just this exotic, in Utah, like, whoa, this is insane. And long story short, they were like, they just saw potential in me. They had a young son, Mark Ballas, and he was the only child. And they were just kind of like, why don't you come live with us for a couple months and we'll train you. We see a lot of potential in you and you're friends with Mark. And at that time, my parents were, home was just a little bit like uncertain. There was no foundation there. Everything was a bit floaty and I didn't know what was going on. And so my parents were gracious enough. And I'm saying that, I really mean that.

28:37The grace that they had to allow me as a young boy to move away, to have an amazing experience. I mean, it really changed my life. It really did. And the reason why I say grace too is as an adult, I am so, I look at my mom and I, the mornings that she would wake up crying, missing us. You just changed as you went into this part of the story. I think because I didn't think of it when I was a young kid. I was like, I'm doing my thing. I'm in England. I'm training. I'm becoming the best. They're saying, come home. It's time to come home now. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. I'm like living my life and I'm winning competitions.

29:13I'm going for the world championship in two years. I'm on this, I can't come home, you know. And they were like, okay, you know. But as an adult, learning more and being more curious about what they were emotionally experiencing was devastating. It was really devastating, you know. They sacrificed a lot. That is a lot. Sacrificed a lot.

29:37Dr. Michael Gervais:There's a risk in there too. Like how did they know you were safe? Well, I mean, we would check in, of course, you know, and communicate and talk, and of course, but and then we see the results they would see like okay they're they're doing what they're meant to do that they're they're thriving over there um but that's even seeing our success and seeing us thrive and doing what we're doing they're missing out on being part of it yeah and parents to us you know and and and at that time you don't see that right you just think about yourself you're just like oh i'm doing what i need to do you know but as an adult you're like wow Thank you.

30:14Dr. Michael Gervais:So you mentioned twice, well, it's beautiful, like the acknowledgement of your mom's sacrifice. I think it was more your mom than your dad is what I felt in here. But yeah. You mentioned twice like this is the part of the story where you had a vision and you were attacking it. You were lining up your thoughts, your words, your actions. I think those are the most powerful people. They can line up their thoughts, words, and actions, even in rugged, scary, whatever environments. They have the mental skills and the physical and technical skills to do that. But earlier in our conversation, you said, no, I was at my lowest point when I had an idea of who I wanted to be and I couldn't be it.

30:57Dr. Michael Gervais:So do you work from like a vision, if you will, of who you want to become? Or is it more like a clarity of who I am at my best and it's already in me? Is it something out there to go get version X or is it something inside of you to open up and express? It's definitely the latter. It's already inside you. Yeah. Everything you need is within you right now, you know, essentially. It's the first principle that I live by. Really? Which is everything you need is already within you. Yes. So it's born out of Carl Rogers. Right. Rogerian therapy, which is like an unconditional positive regard for you.

31:36Dr. Michael Gervais:It's already in you. It's all there. it's already there and which is ironic because I think this feeling of always needing to achieve something to be successful to win I equated all that with love it was like in order for me to feel love or to feel worthy of love I had to succeed I had to achieve I had to win something and only then would I be good enough to receive love or people would like like me or or or love me did you know it at the time or is this now looking back like whoa I was screwed up oh no this is this is looking back for sure so at the time you didn't know it no no no and not for a long time because I won the world championships I was you know the youth champion I won all these competitions and then I went into Dancing with the Stars.

32:31Now I'm in a whole other type of competition, right? I won that show more than anybody had won it, three times at that time. I've exceeded... How old were you? I don't know, 26 or something like that.

32:46Dr. Michael Gervais:World champion, I think. He's like 18, 19. 18, 19. So just like your mentor. Yeah. Cracked it at like a really young age. So 12 to 18 was kind of, you were on it. oh it was relentless yeah and you were good yeah the structure there was that's what that's the key word there it was structure like i mean it was like we had an absolute how many hours a day insane regimen i mean typical day is you know wake up at seven get the 756 train thames link across the thames change get the tube go to barbican walk 20 minutes get the school so So it took about an hour 15 to get to school. And then you're in school from 9 a.m.

33:32till 6 o 'clock at night.

33:34Dr. Michael Gervais:Normal school or dance school? It's like a theater art school. Okay. So it was academics in the morning and then vocation in the afternoon. And then that finishes. Then you do the hour 15 back home. Train, two different trains. 8.30. Get home, eat something really fast, and then go straight to dance. And go train to be a Latin ballroom competitive dancer. Two hours? Two and a half hours? two and a half hours. So we go to like 11 o 'clock at night. Then we do it all over again. And that's the weekdays. Then Saturday comes. And Saturday is lessons start at 10 a.m. You have lessons all day, private lessons to like work on the craft of Latin and ballroom dancing.

34:13And then you practice at night until 11 o 'clock at night. And then Sunday is a competition. And Sunday is, and then what I mean a competition, it's like it could be a local competition, it could be a national competition. But we're driving to Manchester, Liverpool, Bournemouth, Brighton. We're flying to France. We're going somewhere to compete. So that was like for years, that regiment. But that also assured success. Each week there was improvement. I felt there was an improvement every time we go to a competition. So yes, that was relentless. Relentless.

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37:13Dr. Michael Gervais:Can you describe how you approach your mindset, your mental skills, your psychological framing? I'm giving you lots of variants here on how you would approach packing your bag to go to the competition. Interestingly enough, I was not a great competitor. I was a great trainer. I loved training. I loved practice. I loved like I loved it. And then when it came into the competition, I hated it. I just fell apart. But as a young competitor, I was so I was such a perfectionist that what would happen is when we're dancing, and dancing is such a feeling thing, it's such a feeling thing, where it doesn't feel good.

37:57If the connection isn't right, if I don't land on my foot the right way, if there's not a full extension or something happens and you have a partner there too, right? So you're not just relying on yourself. It's like this mutual experience. For me, if it didn't feel good, it just nails on a chalkboard. just like the most excruciating feeling that would overcome me and I couldn't like get myself out of it. And so in a practice –

38:25Dr. Michael Gervais:Would it be frustration or would it be negative self-talk or is it like an anxiousness? It would be all the things. It would be frustration. Super busy up in your head? Just crazy. No connection to your body? Just crazy. And how do you help people now deal with that? I mean it's the fear that we all have, right? We all have that fear of not being good enough. And that was just heightened in a situation where you're being judged. right because you think like oh i'm not good enough and they're not gonna like me uniquely for you because earlier you described that your entire kind of identity your worth to be loved even yeah was that was now at stake yes so when you walked on and they called your number and you did your thing to the middle of the floor and the lights were da da da and eyes were on you it wasn't just like is he a good dancer like look at the lines it was like my entire you don't understand my entire identity yes is at risk and if it's not perfect if i'm not in the pocket then and i'm brutal to myself i'm disconnected and i can't have that so i better i better work my ass off in the gym yeah and be like better than i was yesterday or anyone ever did it the fear of the fear of going out there and not being good was like far outweighed the joy of winning Would you, yeah, I mean, would you look your world best, you won this show three in a row, you have this big body of work of working with world's best as well.

39:54Dr. Michael Gervais:I can keep going on and on about like your body work. Would you change the torment that you had? I guess we could go twice. But I'm thinking about this internal torment to get better. Would you, is there a better way? Or is that the way? No, no, no, no. There's definitely a better way for sure. I think I wouldn't, I wouldn't wish that upon anybody, I suppose. And again, I'm not sitting here, you know, playing the violin saying like, oh, what was me? It was so difficult because I think that again, it was part of my journey and I'm thankful for it. And I'm thankful for there's things about that that I wouldn't change because it gave me a drive.

40:34It gave me this like ambition. It gave me this, you know.

40:38Dr. Michael Gervais:But that's the question. Okay, let's say you're coaching a young kid. Yeah. Are you coaching through inspiration or desperation? Because you had the desperation. Sure. Right? And this is what's happening in the field right now of, let's call it high performance or mastery, is think about old school, which is what you're capturing. Sure. High performance begins where wellness ends. We swallowed that pill. All of us did at some point. and we don't have to swallow that anymore. We know that wellness and high performance, this commitment to being your very best, this masterful way of going through life is possible, but not without agitation, not without resistance is the word you use.

41:22Dr. Michael Gervais:There's still, it's unsettling to get to your edge where the unlock happens, but it doesn't mean that you've got to yourself and it doesn't mean that you've got to be terrible to yourself and rude to others and you know sacrifice everything for the one thing that might not ever actually happen and then and that was really the realization for me was i remember being in my apartment and i was looking up and i was i think i had won like an emmy and there's at that time there's three mil royal trophies and think about how many emmys now four congrats um thank you and now but i remember like looking at this hardware and i was like i remember being really in a bad place just really in a dark spot and i'm like what the heck is going on man like what come on dude you're like you're living the dream like you're top of the game like what is going on here because my whole life like i've talked about it was like success equal love it was like you know equal love but all of a sudden here i am and i don't feel love I don't feel love for myself um and therefore I don't feel it from anybody else honestly and people keep saying wow you're great all these things but what I realized in that moment was that the fulfillment aspect of it was gone and it's it's about the who I was as a person wasn't congruent with what I want who I wanted to become and who I wanted to be and once I started diving into that and really like waking up and being like I like this person not because of what I've achieved not because of the awards not because of this stuff just just because of me just me just by myself like in a field empty with nothing once I kind of started to be like I like that person then it was like honestly it was there was like this like rocket fuel essentially and I'm the opportunities the the things that happened from that.

43:17I think I won, you know, two seasons after that back to back. And then I, you know, did this and I, but I wasn't doing it to win. I wasn't doing it for, I was, had a different intention. I had a different reason, a different purpose for doing things. It wasn't about winning. It wasn't about proving myself. It wasn't about being the best. It wasn't about all this stuff. It was a different intention, different fuel, which was like, I'm going to, I like, I like this person and I'm going to do this for a different reason, for an enjoyment of it versus the, to try to prove something and um do you know your purpose are you clear about your life purpose yeah i think so i think so i think i mean let's be real there's some days where i'm like what am i doing what is the purpose of this all but i think for the most part where i feel the most like aligned and i feel the most fulfilled is what i'm genuinely serving and i mean that even just the other day, I flew out and I taught at a dance studio.

44:14There's these little kids in there. And one of them came up and gave me a hug at the end of the class. And they looked up at me. And no joke, I just like, again, I get emotional again because I think about that little boy. And I'm like, wow, I'm able to be in a position now where I'm able to now help this person's dreams. I'm able to like guide this person and to give this person an opportunity you know and I'm so unbelievably thankful to be in that position where I'm able to help where I'm able to serve and even on tours when I'm performing man I would get burnt out I would get so tired I would get exhausted and you know I'm doing Dancing with Stars at the same time as I'm doing the shows but it would get exhausting because I was doing it for me but once I went to go out there and I'm like I'm here to like I'm here to freaking serve this audience I'm here to give them something.

45:05I want to give like, it just, it gave me this like endless well of energy that I can wake up every day. And even if I'm a little tired, the second I see their faces, it's just like, I just, it's amazing. It's amazing. But it's again,

45:20Dr. Michael Gervais:it's one of the great insights. It's not about being loved. It's having people to love. Yeah. Yeah. And if you do get the order of that wrong, the other way, it's about being loved, not having people to love. quickly you see just how of an a hungry ghost that is like a you can never feed you know or satiate that that that thing but if you have someone to love yeah and it doesn't need to that doesn't mean like a wife or a partner that that's just you can love other mother theresa was never married yeah a pretty epic woman so okay so shifting slightly here yeah this is awesome what what is your craft what is my craft i don't know because i wouldn't i wouldn't just specify and go into dance i i think that's right for you i wouldn't just go into i feel like it's obviously created i have it in my little bio thing but created to create i love creation and by the way that can mean doing yard work i love i love gardening because i love to create I love to nurture.

46:26I love seeing transformation. I love that. That gives me like, that just gets me amped. When I see something transform or somebody transform, you know, if I'm teaching them dance, do you see them not be able to do something? And then all of a sudden they can do something like that little, that transition is like, it's so exciting. Okay.

46:43Dr. Michael Gervais:This is cool. Because like your vehicle is through dance. Correct. It's the laboratory. Yes. But it sounds like your purpose is to serve, to kind of pour into other people. And then your craft is to help unlock something in others. It could be the audience that's inspired or feeling something or they're crying just watching a beautiful piece. Or it's your partner that you're coaching and helping them do something that you have this idea of is possible, but we're just kind of massaging and getting into the right whatever to unlock it. So you and I have some mutual friends, which is always fun. So I called them to ask for some questions.

47:28Dr. Michael Gervais:Oh, no, okay. Okay. Who is it? Okay, so the first one is Misty Copeland. Oh, Misty. I love Misty. Yeah. So Misty recognizes one of the greats in ballet on point. Yes, she is. And she's amazing. And so she has a question for you about creating. So it's fun that you went the creative way. Okay. so full full question or text back to me was he actually created a piece on me some years ago i believe it was his first time choreographing for ballerina and specifically in pointe shoes so i'd love to know this is misty speaking in his creative process is he shaping the work around who's in front of him and their capabilities or is he more about challenging the dancer to step into his vision before you answer this question has been a theme throughout everything we've talked about your vision of what could be and then your creative process to help unlock something in the other so again let me let me let me question is right on point for this no pun intended there is he shaping the work around who's in front of him and their capabilities or is it more about challenging the dancer to step into his vision it depends it depends honestly who I'm working with meaning for instance well first of all Misty Copeland I mean working with her was like working with it was just like having just a bouquet of flowers just like you're like oh my gosh the the it's endless what I could do with her right because I'm just like do you like oh yeah yeah do that that's great um do you oh yeah do that and oh you didn't do two do four great fantastic like it was so wonderful to work with her because her facility was so broad and her she also has that discipline you know that discipline where she's like if i say try something she goes okay like she's she's ready to go there's no sort of like question she's gonna she's gonna push me as a choreographer you know what i'm saying the best pull us yes and that's where i'm like i'm like oh you can do more than i'm i'm saying do this but you can do you can do more than that or you can go further with that.

49:39Dr. Michael Gervais:So you're calibrating against what the capability is, but do you have a vision of what you'd like this bouquet to look like? Yes. There's always a vision there. For me, it's a feeling though. It's a feeling. There is vision there without a doubt where I'm like, I can kind of see it. But my main test is this in me. It's the feeling I get when I see something. And I just know that's not right. it just it's like a it's like a little it settles it opens it's something here where when i watch it it's a process because i might have like a an initial vision of what i want musically the dynamics the costumes the colors the lighting all that yes i need that sort of vision as like as a choreographer it's feeling it's like try this no that's not right do this do this move that but how do you get the feeling when you're seeing misty kind of do her thing like what's how does how does her shape give you a feeling i don't know it's it's it's just it's something it's hard to pinpoint when i'm in the process of doing something i'm creating but to go back to what she her question real fast was do I do I try to push the dancer into my vision or do I create with the person in front of me is that one to be honest with you it's great it's I create I co-create like if and I've always been like that even on Dancing with the Stars a lot of dancers will come in with routines pre choreographed and they'll come and teach it I got this routine here we go I'm gonna show you the routine I never came in prepared I heard that from our producer who also worked on your show i never came in prepared which by the way was miserable for whom for me and for them i'm sure because it was frustrating because i would constantly change things and they're like well which one is it there i felt like having that ability to sort of create on the spot and create with the person in front of me to create where they were where they were at their level and then then to exceed it as well but i felt like it was I was able to get the best out of them.

51:55Dr. Michael Gervais:Do you err more on support or challenge? What do you mean by the support? Like meaning? Okay, I'm going to try something. Let's try something together. I think you can do this and I just want to check it out and like, let's feel our way through this a little bit. Yeah. Or is it like, wait, hold on. You know, I know you've got more extension in your head. Right. Right. Like, come on, like pull that out a little further. I'll say this, depending on who I'm working with, because I think that. What did you do with Misty? With Misty? Oh, anything. I was like, oh, yeah. Add another one of those turns in there for sure.

52:26Do that. Oh, my gosh. Do this.

52:27Dr. Michael Gervais:So more on the support, like the collaboration versus like, Misty, there's more in you. Take it a little further. She certainly is a person that doesn't need that. If I were to say, hey, try this, do this, she would do it, honestly. That would only come from her being like, I don't really want to do that or it doesn't feel good. That never happened. she was like okay let's do this let's go versus like if somebody were saying if somebody says i can't do that and i'm like no you can do that i know you can do that and then but then it's up to me to get them to do that by showing the steps and not just showing them but to get them to believe they can do it and to show them the process how do you do that how do you help somebody believe that they can one is just to know who they are right what's their background what do they feel comfortable in you know in in their life what's something that feels like they they can understand and i talk in those terms so for instance like if i'm talking to you know an actor right or i'm working with an actor on dancing the stars like i can't do that i'm like okay all right well hold on now but if you could how would you do it you know what i mean like like what do you mean um but i would i would use sort of an anecdote or something that they can relate to and you're a surfer right so if i'm talking to you and we're doing a dance like okay well listen it's like when you you push off the surfboard you have to press off equal balance otherwise if you do one side too much you're gonna flip over the side right and you go oh yeah i understand that okay you utilize when you push off that what muscles are being activated it's like on my back my lats you know my my chest okay cool so when we do this move i need you to like activate those same muscle groups when you push off all of a sudden you're like oh dance is crazy but then you're like oh no no no no sir by the way surfing is is an incredible form of movement and balance and you know um adjusting and flowing and all these things so utilizing you'll seen derrick yeah yeah but it is i mean it's super athletic and i get the core engagement and all these different things working with amy purdy you know she was a paralympian she lost her legs at 19 below the knee both of the legs both double amputee and working with her um i could communicate to her in snowboarding terms and then but then but dance and then she would be like oh i got makes perfect sense yeah so you're translating from who they are what they know into what you want to feel or see yeah that's awesome because dance is that's the thing dance is a word but but movement we all move We are all moving.

55:09You walking into this room, you know, getting into your car, whatever it is, we are moving. And dancing is just a little bit, it's a little organized movement. That's it. We get afraid by the word. And so my goal is to like not make you afraid of it, but to sort of embrace movement.

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56:50Dr. Michael Gervais:How about somebody like Nicole Scherzinger? Nicole Scherzinger. Oh, my goodness. By like Tony Award winner. Yeah. She's a force. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And so how do you work with somebody who's already pretty, I mean, not Misty. There's probably, she's in a category alone, right? But somebody that really has a command, can move, can sing, comes from a place. I don't know her, but she feels very strong in the way she presents. How would you coach? Well, I think the first and foremost, I'll say this. Trust is really important when you're a coach in that position. and when I joined the show, my first two partners did not want to be with me.

57:28They were like, who is this scrawny little boy who I came on the show to dance with these strong, sexy guys and here I am like this 90-pound, like, hi guys, I'm going to teach you how to do a cha-cha. Like, this sucks. Dang it. But I actually appreciated knowing that because I knew, okay, I have to earn this. I have to earn the respect.

57:50Dr. Michael Gervais:My world championship does not hang. Oh, they don't care. Yeah, right, yeah. They don't care. Right. So even with Nicole, who, again, I remember like looking at her on billboards when I was living in England, being like, oh, my gosh, she's like this like goddess and incredible. And I go into a room and also I have to teach her how to dance and teach her how to do something. Like she's the superstar. So it's important to be very certain of myself as a coach and being like, OK, I know what I'm doing. I have knowledge I have the tools and I'm here to help her um so working with her it's cool so it's trust yes establishing trust and backing yourself so self-confidence yes knowing how to speak to yourself about what is what your capabilities and strengths and unique assets that you're bringing to this collab yes and the way that you're building trust is probably by being your best forward and being interested in their capabilities and being interested and being being strong we had a fun we had a lot of fun we had a great dynamic we were very like um we joked around a lot we have this very similar sense of humor um but i was also very strong you know i mean in the coaching style because it was sort of like if i was kind of like hey maybe do this it wasn't that it was like do this i need you to do this i need you to do that you actually have that in this conversation you've got a tenderness you've got an openness to explore um you're highly conscientious you've got a vertical alignment that is um presents with a low agreeableness you're not going to agree just to agree you might say oh i yeah but then you're going to say something that is actually your point of view right which is where your strength um how your strength is expressed it's not where it comes from it comes from the the hard things that you've been through, the relationship with yourself that you've built to be able to open the aperture and be like, here I am.

59:50Dr. Michael Gervais:And that doesn't make sense to me or that I see it this way. Sure. So do others see you in the same way that I just expressed? Or does that feel foreign to you? No. Well, first, thanks. Thank you. I appreciate it. I take that as a compliment. Thank you. Yeah, those are definitely assets. That's very kind. I'll say this. My journey as I'm just a very curious person I've been always been curious even when I was a young kid my mom would put me in art lessons karate lessons swimming lessons drum lessons guitar dance I was always learning something and so I think that that that curiosity has stayed with me so even when I even when I behave certain ways when I'm when I'm in the dance studio and I'm I've lost my patience and I'm not being kind, you know, in my earlier seasons of Dancing with the Stars, I look at those and I kind of like wince a little bit.

1:00:44Because there's moments where I'm like, wow, I was a scared little boy on this big stage trying to coach when I really had no business in that moment doing that.

1:00:55Dr. Michael Gervais:So you know what an imposter syndrome feels like? Oh, my God. Yeah, me too. Oh, my God. I mean, like, if you're going to try to do something, you're going to get over your skis and be a little bit faster on the hill than you know you're capable of. Oh, no, the amount of times I'm just like, oh, my gosh. If they find out that I'm actually not this. Yeah, I know how to dance, but I'm not a coach. People who call me a choreographer, I'm like, no, I'm not. No, I'm not. It took me years to be like, okay, I do have good instincts. You're a great choreographer. I mean, can you count? Do you know the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4?

1:01:32Dr. Michael Gervais:Because you guys all start at 5, 6, 7, 8. you guys do know one two three four we do we do we know we also know one e and a two e and a three and a four i've heard you don't count i heard you do sounds i do i do i can i hear it i don't know it's like it's because sometimes i think when you make sounds it it helps identify the move because it's like a so you know that the move is like a sustained movement or if it's a then you know that's like a it's a it's an impact movement right so i'll actually do that when i'm coaching somebody i'll say i need you to sing this with me and so they would do it as a dance so and what happens their body when they go when they make those sounds their body wants to do what they're set what their but they're they're doing their mouth so even on the dance floor they're actually making those noises as well because it helps them you know that's cool or Or if I'm working with an Olympian, like an Olympic athlete, who has been taught, do not smile, no emotion, I'm here, and I'm trying to get them to perform, I would have them just make sounds and noises.

1:02:42I'd say, I want you to go, wow, and woo, and hey, let's go. And I'd have them say that every time they would hit a move. And they're like, why are you doing that? It's like, nothing, we're just making sounds, but let's go. And I'd do it with them. I'm like, yeah, woo, yeah. and then when you watch on camera they're going like and they have this emotion and they're having fun and it's like emoting something that's clever so you're just finding little tricks who are you thinking of sean johnson okay it's funny because

1:03:10Dr. Michael Gervais:i call i call nastia lucan oh yeah so this is the other person yeah so before we go to nastia and i've got a question from nastia but yeah um what did you learn i'm going to put you on the spot here a little bit like what did you learn from misty one thing i learned with misty is it doesn't matter how good you are how what you've achieved how far you've come when you're in that studio like you're you're there to work you're there to work and she was a worker and she was so gracious and respectful and we we're friends now like we know each other like hey what's you know but at that time it's like i'm like hello discipline and by the way this is switched on this This is also right before when we created this piece for her at the Lincoln Center.

1:03:59I feel like somebody told me about her. They're like, Misty Copeland, she's this ballerina, she's amazing, she's this and that, she's making history. I'm like, I'd love to create for her. And then I feel like it was three months later, all of a sudden it was Misty Copeland, the Misty Copeland, all the campaigns and the billboards and the things. It was really cool to be able to experience her before and also to experience her after all that and how she's remained this incredible athlete, you know, and just humble and gracious. And, man, that is, man, the respect, I think people, if they even understood a fraction of what it took or what it takes to get at her level as a ballerina the hours the

1:04:58Dr. Michael Gervais:oh my gosh you just you wish wouldn't go near it what's that intensity it's super switched on it's beyond yeah it's incredible and so she's she's amazing i love her to death she's amazing that's very cool i mean i could feel like i'd have this conversation for a long time with you is that you have and i think it's relatively new that some of the stuff that's gone on with you and your wife and so when i learned about what your wife went through i was like can you go to like what that phase is like and maybe just open up what what she's gone through and and open that up because i nobody gets through this life without going through hard stuff yeah you're either in the storm or heading to it and um there is a science around resilience and hardiness and dealing with difficult things but I would love from a firsthand experience you know if you could celebrate and even share you know what you guys have been through yeah well I mean going from a thousand miles an hour being on tour performing for thousands of people with you know my beautiful wife we've just been married for three months so we're in that like honeymoon phase just life is great wonderful and dancing with the stars judging that finish the finale and finally back on the road and we're going to like Florida now where the weather is nice because we've been in the east coast and during the winter time and and to suddenly then feeling like I lost my wife because in a way I did the night it all happened she you know was having seizures on the side of stage and not making sense and what happened we actually hit heads that's what caused the bleed so then there was of course an overwhelming sense of guilt and shame you know like i caused this and uh you know even though we've hit heads many times before things happen we you know dancers always happens nothing was out of the ordinary um but uh the she actually it happened at the beginning of the show an hour and a half later towards the end that's when the symptoms started to kick in and she actually danced three dances didn't skip a beat and she doesn't remember it at all she just remembers being on stage at this one point but i was like honey you danced three full numbers and then you didn't come on stage and she has no recollection it's crazy it's insane the hospital the doctor talking to me just basically basically saying that you know she might not survive like i'm like what like and and even if she does it's so severe the the midline shift the swelling has been so severe that this is brain damage so she's not going to be the same person even if she does survive so how did how did you did you could you process that i was stealing my rhinestone shirt man i I was literally, we were just off the stage.

1:08:04It was crazy. They had to cut her out of her costume. I was. You didn't know. I was on the floor in tears. I think at first I was kind of like, kept myself together. But once I had a moment, it was two in the morning. You know, it was late by that time. And so the hospital area was empty and I was just there by myself.

1:08:26Dr. Michael Gervais:And I just. So she was already at the hospital. By that time. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when the doctor came out and talked to me, yeah, they're about to go operate. They had to open up her skull. They removed 40 % of her skull. And I was just, they were basically like, you need to go back. You need to go home and rest. You're in this for a long haul. And that's when I realized, I was like, oh, life is never even the same. And in that moment, I experienced loss one way or the other. Whether or not she passed away or she just, I've lost a person I know. she's going to be a different person so there was loss and that was excruciating but without going too much detail about everything that happened fortunately she came she opened her eyes and she was she was her and that was a victory and all of a sudden there's like these like you're going from like the lowest of lows to then like the smallest things being the highest highs so you could experience this insane amount of joy like like i don't mean by joy i mean like no award no competition no like achievement could compare to the moment when she said her own name and I knew that it was her.

1:09:53That was like, wow, like that's just the best feeling in the world. And then it was like.

1:09:57Dr. Michael Gervais:Are these tears of joy? Oh, yeah, just like so thankful, you know, so much gratitude. Yeah. The moment when she stood up for the first time to go to the bathroom, like it was like joy, just like victory, joy, like, oh, my gosh, this is incredible. the moment that she started laughing because her face was swelled up where she looked like the guy from Goonies you know and she's laughing about it and I'm just like that amount of joy that we experienced that's why we always talked about like the biggest highs and the biggest lows because of course it's a low but my god did we experience these these moments of grace and victory and joy and then it was difficult too because then it's like okay now can she do what she did before can she get back to that place and you know we've been on this crazy journey but I've always been so impressed with her because she never really shed a tear she did but eventually but that first couple weeks she never like she never felt sorry for herself she never was like oh no like why did this happened to me and I can't believe this.

1:11:06And she's looking herself in the mirror and she's missing half her skull. Like her whole head, the shape of her head is like, you know, Salvador Dali painting. Like it's like concaved and then her head's shaved and it's not even her, you know. But she didn't, she was like, it is what it is. That's what she just kept saying that. She goes, it is what it is, what I'm gonna do about it. Like this is what happened and here I am. So for me, what I really learned from her in those moments when I was so impressed was her ability to surrender. She was just like, this is what it is. I can't do anything about it.

1:11:45And that's just like, the only thing I can do is try to do what I can do. Do what I can do. And that's, what am I going to focus on? Am I going to focus on, oh, I can't do this. Oh, I look like this. Am I going to focus on these things? or am I going to focus on the nurse smiling at me? Am I going to focus on watching Home Alone 45 times on repeat on the TV that they have in there? Am I going to focus on the fact that my husband is by my side and that there's so much more to be thankful for? And she didn't just like read the books and listen to things. She just was it. She just was living it. I'm the type of person where I'm like, let me go listen to something and then like get myself into state or like let me go like read something and then I can get myself there.

1:12:30and she was just living it. And I was so impressed. People were like, thank you so much. You were amazing for being there for her. And I'm like, me being there for her? I was like, she was there for us. She was there for us. Because when we walked out of that room, we were a mess. But every time we walked in there, she would just look and just kind of smile. And she would just give us so much strength.

1:12:59Dr. Michael Gervais:god i wish i i i i pray that in my hardest moments i have the capabilities that you just expressed about your wife yeah she's impressive i'm impressed i'm just like i'm in awe of her and yeah and we're just we're beyond thankful because you know we also understand we were in the icu and we saw a lot of people coming in and out and weren't fortunate. The brain is so wild. It's really unbelievable. And it's unbelievable too. And by the way, going back to dance, the doctors were like, dude, there's no way she's going to be dancing within a year. And Haley was like, I'm going to do that in a couple of weeks.

1:13:48And they're like, no, no, no, no, like sit down. you know but her recovery was so impressive and the doctors were so in awe and so shocked and uh i really i really believe that the athleticism and her dancing was a big factor in

1:14:02Dr. Michael Gervais:that yeah i would i would completely co-sign that yeah and thank you for sharing it's like one of the hardest moments you've probably ever been through and to celebrate her ability to be there for you and you to be there for her and underneath the surface you are eloquently describing the three c's as it comes to the research around hardiness and resilience and according to research that people are resilient those that are the most resilient they focus on controlling what they can control it sounds like it was haley being the best haley she can be yeah like it is what it is and i'm going to i'm not gonna like i'm not gonna go back I'm going to just keep doing the way I do my life, which is I'm going to try to be my best.

1:14:45Dr. Michael Gervais:Control the things that are in your control. Like really commit to staying in the fight, you know, and not like pulling out of it. What was me, whatever. So a full commitment when it's hard. And then seeing this thing as a challenge more so than even a setback. It's like, okay, what's the challenge in here? What do I need to learn? What do I need? I'm going to figure it out. so it sounds like she did all three of those like you know organically yeah yeah that that again that was what was so impressive about it because it was she just was i would come in like okay baby this is what i'm gonna do and she goes i know yeah i got you i got it i got this like i i i'm i'm she would i would come in with game plans and stuff she's like yeah i got it yeah it was pretty impressive yeah i just want to say thank you for how you brought yourself forward in this conversation there's a clarity and a spark there's a knowing that you come from that only comes from deep work and so it's cool it's recognized and that deep work is on your craft and on yourself and i 100 see the the genius of creativity that others nastia wouldn't didn't get to nastia like her question is really about like how do you get through the the judgment piece but i think we've i do think we've answered it i want to take a second here to tell you about a morning routine that I've been using for years.

1:16:06Dr. Michael Gervais:For me, it's a great way to switch on my mind, to ready myself to take on the day. So before I check my phone, my emails, market updates, or text threads, I choose how to start my morning. That's always in my control. That's always in your control too. This is the same morning mindset routine that some of the world's top performers across sport, business, and the arts are using. The best part, it only takes about 90 seconds to do. So just head over to findingmastery.com slash morning to download the audio guide for free. Again, head to findingmastery.com slash morning to get your morning mindset routine.

1:16:44Can I share one thing about Nastia real fast? Yeah. Just that is my favorite moment. And this wasn't on camera, but it's a moment that I love sharing about her. Nastia looking is one of my favorite like all time moments actually.

1:16:57Dr. Michael Gervais:Nastia, for those that don't know, gold medalist, 2008 Beijing Games, five time medalist, Olympic medalist. shifted the the paradigm of sport because her body type was different than the yes so her and misty have kind of this similar type of narrative about you know who they are what they've done so anyways nasi is an olympic legend yeah nasi lucan and i asked her i sat there and i said because here's the truth was that she she i remember the media saying like oh she had this like resting rbf or something like that where she had this like focused face or she had this like look on her or whatever it was and and she's like that's just my focus face and and i was just trying to like get to know her a little bit more on a deeper level you know halfway through the season i'm trying to like unlock something i'm trying to unlock a performance aspects of her and i just asked her i said i said hey is your name nastia and she goes no no no no and she goes my name was actually Anastasia.

1:17:57And I was like, oh, Anastasia. That's so soft. That's so softer. I was like, well, when did Nastia come into this? And she goes, when I started gymnastics. I was like, well, how old was that? And she goes, well, I was about six years old. And I was like, oh. I was like, well, let's talk about Anastasia. Let's talk about before you did gymnastics. Let's talk about before you were six. And let's talk about Anastasia. And I'm not even kidding you, man. It was the craziest thing I've ever seen. her whole like face just went like softened and it changed she just like morphed before my eyes into Anastasia and I was like whoa I feel like I'm you're just you're different you are different instantly and she goes wow I never really thought about that girl kind of like what we did before Totally.

1:18:49And from that moment on, I only called her Anastasia. I'd say, Anastasia, let's go over here. Anastasia, let's go over here. Anastasia. And so she would come over and she just had this joy and then this softness to her. Because Nastia was the competitor. She was like, I got to get this shit done. Gnarly, yeah. And Anastasia was this little girl that wanted to dance and wanted to perform. And there was such an amazing shift in her. and for me it was just one of those cool moments where just acknowledging and diving a little bit deeper into somebody's history and and then to literally witness her morph into a different human being before my eyes was like the wildest thing i was honestly like where are the cameras i was like you guys missed the best the most incredible thing ever but um but we shared a really special bond you know in that moment and uh well it was pretty cool it was pretty cool i i I love that story because, again, it goes into the psychology, the emotion, and not just the mechanics of dance.

1:19:50There's so much more to it and performance in any walk of life.

1:19:55Dr. Michael Gervais:As you're describing that, I'm like, it must be amazing and terrifying to be coached by you. And I say that with the highest regard. Amazing because you're really trying to understand how to co-create something and you also understand that to do that beautiful bouquet thing that we were talking about earlier to create that thing is going to need some stretching there's going to be something that is going to need to be beyond what we're what feels safe yeah and i feel like because you care about the relationship and you're really invested in helping unlock that being in service that you would create the right condition for people to take that step into the messy unknown and to do it publicly and to do it first privately with you and then publicly in front of others and even me thinking about being coached by you I can feel my heart rate elevate because I think you you've got a unique skill in doing that so bravo really cool thank you man wait before we go ovation yeah tell me about ovation you know we were talking about serving talking about coaching teaching ovation um is a as a convention competition that my sister and i have created where it's just that you know you want to create an event and they uh where you can come and compete at a high level and any different type of genre of dance whether it be like latin and ballroom jazz contemporary hip-hop where you can like learn from incredible coaches um and we don't i don't really do these you know i mean and but this one i'm very excited about because we want to make it at such a high level and truly an experience and of course the competition as well and it's only be seven events there's seven of them across the countries from like chicago new york la dallas miami utah california arizona it's an incredible dance experience you know so if you're a dancer for studios for us as well it's about elevating dancers to give them opportunities to where they have more opportunities but also are on the same level as athletes so it's gonna be a three day weekend the first day is actually gonna be a big show where it's like it's like it could be open to the public anybody can come watch it's gonna be like an amazing production show so we can come and watch and just be entertained and be like you and your friends are dancing myself beautiful choreography amazing dancers choreographers music lights the whole thing the whole shabam and then the next day is going to be you know lessons from like you know the best coaches in the country what makes this one special is that this is a sort of a hybrid where you can take like a dance studio can take their like contemporary jazz piece that they take to all the other conventions and competitions they can compete that ovation but what we also have is the ballroom world because the ballroom world The ballroom in Latin world is its own thing, and then the convention space is its own thing too.

1:22:58Dr. Michael Gervais:So are you pulling those two together? We literally are bringing those two together. Yeah, so Ovation, I see what, this is great. This is like you. Literally the O. Yeah, right. The O and the two halves. So that's what we're doing. We're bringing those two together, and it's this hybrid experience where you can kind of pick your own experience, essentially. But, yeah, we're bringing them together. Because the thing that's amazing too is the ballroom in Latin world has gotten so much bigger and has grown in the popularity and also... I think social media has helped. Absolutely. Yeah, because they're phenomenal movers.

1:23:33And honestly, Dancing with the Stars. Yeah. It's the largest dance show in the world.

1:23:38Dr. Michael Gervais:Yeah, you guys were the first mover. Yeah, and in 46 countries. Amazing. And it's extraordinary. So yeah, so Ovation is going to be... It's a new adventure and our plan is to do seven this year. December is Chicago. And then 2026, May, like January, February, March, May is sort of like the window of the other dates. Where do you want us to follow? Is it you on social? Is it dot com? Yeah, OvationDanceTour.com is where you can get all the information about it. And of course, Ovation Dance, you know, on Instagram. But yeah, man, it's exciting. We have plans to go international. We got to find a way to dovetail, like to help them kind of invest in the mental skills, like a crash course on mental skills for these competitors.

1:24:24Dr. Michael Gervais:Yes. Yeah, like, you know, because you can do a lot of real, you know, advancement in somebody's ability to express with just unlocking how to be calm, just how to speak to themselves. My man. My man. No, I don't know why I said it like that. My man. That's honestly is exactly what we want to do. Yeah. Because, again, there's been the classes, competition. but listen I got burnt out when I was like 15 16 years old I was like well I'm done I can't do this anymore I'm like I'm tapped out I'm done with dance you know and you see that a lot you see a lot of young dancers burning out really young because it's just a lot and well it's about chasing the external and that's very dangerous because you're not in control of it but one of the simple little practices I do with professional athletes and even like my son and when I'm helping out of this team is it's a simple, simple little practice that maybe you can pass this forward is before every practice, one to three goals that are a hundred percent under your control, whether it's an NFL athlete about to on Sunday playing in front of whatever millions.

1:25:31Dr. Michael Gervais:Hey man, what are your three goals? Oh, you know, my three bang, bang, bang. And they're all 100 % under that person's control. So it puts the athlete, the mover back in a position of power. yes and so it's a that's a the simplest little thing but but it's but but those not winning but the simple things are are the things that are are needed because they're they're um you can apply them yeah right and they're not there's not like a big drag on something like that no you're like oh gosh i have to do this thing it's like oh no this is yeah i can do this hold on what what are you in control of what is the kind of where are you pointing what does success look like is like what those three goals stand for yeah so derek i just have to say like this has been a real treat a joy thank you so much for how you share and what you've shared i hope that it's been equally as rewarding as you and i do hope that we celebrate your genius because it's that i feel like that's part of my role here and so i hope it's come forward for you in the in just the right way that i'm feeling it i'm just really grateful to be able to meet you this way thank you so much man the pleasure of all mine thank you next time on finding mastery we're joined by clinical psychologist and narcissism expert, Dr.

1:26:39Dr. Michael Gervais:Ramani DeVarsala. In this conversation, she and Dr. Javai unpack how to spot narcissistic traits, protect your peace, and answer the big questions. Can someone with narcissistic tendencies ever change? And if you're in a relationship with a narcissist, should you stay or should you leave? Join us on Wednesday, July 30th, 9am Pacific for this revelatory conversation. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening.

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1:27:57Dr. Michael Gervais:And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend, and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional.

1:28:33Dr. Michael Gervais:So seek assistance from your health care providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.