Olympic Gold Medalist: Other People Were Killing My Confidence (And How I Got It Back) - Caroline Marks

25:02Dr. Michael Gervais:And when I'm assuming that's important because you know what it's like to not have that. For sure. Okay. I think it's funny because almost everyone in my friend group, and there's been a couple of new people, but almost everyone in my close inner circle. Like there's a lot of people that are like outside the circle and there's only a few that you like really, really let in that you really trust and that have been there for you. They're really good moments and really bad moments. And a lot of people that have been in my life have been there since day one. And I noticed I always gravitate towards people like that.

25:30Like before I was a surfer, had any accolades or anything like that. And I feel like a lot of safety in that. For some reason, I don't, I don't know why, but I just, I feel like when I see someone be there for me when things aren't going great, when they're still there for me and still like, hey, I'm here for you, still give me the same amount of love. Those are the people I gravitate towards. And I feel like that shows like someone's true character.

25:54Dr. Michael Gervais:So let's just call that for a placeholder, like trust. Like I trust that they are not judgy critiquing. They're not around me because I'm famous and talented or whatever, but they are actually interested in the character of Caroline. So trust for you, is trust given or trust earned? Maybe a bit of both. I think earned a little. I don't know. I haven't even thought about all these things. This is great. I'm learning about myself. Thank you. Well, you know, it's funny. Your laugh reminds me. I'm not going to move off with the question because I think it's a really, I want to learn how you do it.

26:28Dr. Michael Gervais:And there's not a right or wrong way of any of this, right? It's like your way. This is great. but you know what your your laugh reminded me we were in tokyo um in the stands on the beach and we're having a conversation and we've been hanging out for like i don't know 10 days maybe it was like three it's i think we're the team house was together for three weeks probably yeah almost a month probably almost a month yeah what a great month so fun the vending machines in the house i mean are you kidding me that was so cool it's my favorite part really yeah it was great it's like my dream the japanese cuisine was yeah but so we're having a good conversation and we had talked about a lot up those first 10 days you know and then you lean over you go wait are you like a psychologist no idea i was really really embarrassed we were having a conversation before this and i was so embarrassed i said that oh my goodness i stuck with me because it was such a high compliment because for me it's like you didn't have this box that you put me in and it was two people really trying to sort out how for you to be your best.

27:34For sure. I was just like, this guy's super cool. What is he here for? This is great. We're getting along. This is great.

27:41Dr. Michael Gervais:You must be a manager or something. Yeah, some physio. I don't know. But we haven't done any physio yet. No, I know. So yeah, I do remember that. That was pretty funny. It was really funny. Yeah. So anyways, but your laugh reminded me of that moment. And so let's go back to the question. Do you give trust or is trust earned? I think earned and then it's given probably. Yeah. But it's funny because... I'm the same way, by the way. Yeah. But I've also like, I think that's also too, because I've had, I've given trust and that trust has been broken. So I think now I'm like, you know, maybe earn the trust then given the trust.

28:20I don't know. I am a very like with my friends and stuff, like shirt off my back. Like I'm really there for you. So I think sometimes I expect that from other people and not everyone's like that, which is okay. But I think it's taken me a minute to learn that. I'm like, wait, not everyone's, you know, has that type of personality. And that's just kind of how I was raised too. And a lot of it is how you're raised. And so, um, my family's very like, you know, if you're in, you're super in, you know, we'll do anything for you kind of thing. So. Yeah.

28:49Dr. Michael Gervais:So that's why you have a tight inner circle, which is important that you have earned the trust of them for sure. And they've earned it in reverse as well. And I think there's something important just to land on, which is the definition of trust is that I'm going to make something vulnerable that I really value. And that thing that I really value, like my heart or my time or my money, whatever it might be, it's important to me and I'm going to make it vulnerable by trusting you with it, by giving it to you. and if somebody is sloppy with it then they they should not be in the inner circle for sure yeah what do they say like trust takes years to years to build and seconds to lose or years to earn seconds to lose or something like that so yeah that stuck with me i forget someone told me that and i was like that's so true like someone can be your friend for 10 years and something happens and you're like wait a second you know but i'm also aware like nobody's perfect i'm not perfect i'm sure i've done a lot of things to piss my friends off that they're like we're never going to talk to her again, but, um, you know, there's certain lines you just don't cross.

29:51I think.

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31:36Dr. Michael Gervais:Open, secure, and on your own terms. If you take your work seriously, take the conditions you work in seriously too. Right now, ProtonVPN is offering you 70 % off a two-year plan when you go to protonvpn.com slash mastery. That's proton, P-R-O-T-O-N-V-P-N.com slash mastery for 70 % off your two-year plan. Again, that's protonvpn.com slash mastery. You're 23? 23. 23. Are you aware, I mean, you have experienced a full life at 23. It's crazy. You were on the world tour at 15? 15, yeah. 15. You picked up a surfboard at the age of 11. You, I don't know, months or a couple of years later, you're kind of thrown at age 13.

32:24Dr. Michael Gervais:I think you were on the national team at that time. Yeah. It was my first, that was my first like pro event. I got a wild card into like, yeah, the pro event. So I was around like all my heroes. It was pretty funny. And you brought it to them, right? Yeah, it's funny looking back. I was so oblivious to the world. I couldn't think about anything besides like my next way my next meal. It was great. I wish I can think like that now. Well, that's what I wanted to ask is like, so you've had a full rich life, big emotions. You've practiced being in very uncomfortable situations, probably more than most people would have in their lifetime.

32:59Dr. Michael Gervais:And because competitions and practices, and when you're right at that emotional edge of like, am I going to fall into a thousand pieces? Is this whole thing going to evaporate? You know, it's kind of what the edge feels like for most people. And you've got to, to surf well, you've got to put it on edge. You got to get to the edge of the envelope physically. And I'm talking more emotionally here for a moment. Let's come back to the physical edge and surfing in a moment because it's a beautiful concept. But are you aware of your blind spots that have caused pain in others or pain in yourself? Yeah.

33:37Like, this kind of goes back to like the people pleasing thing we talked about, I guess. another thing too you're talking about like being uncomfortable like I think almost all good things happen outside of your comfort zone like almost all good things you know like I was telling you before I'm like winning a gold medal is not that comfortable or like you know winning surfing a big wave or whatever it is you know or climbing a huge mountain people do crazy stuff that I'm like I would never do that you know so that's something that's really cool and that's something that has really motivated me to kind of get over my fears and stuff like that and I'm like I just know like if I don't want you almost like want your dreams to be scary and if they're scary it's like a really good thing um but yeah I've I've honestly I feel like I've learned more about like my blind spots the last couple years um you know when I took time off that was before that I never saw a sports psychologist or never I just didn't really you know I didn't even know what that was really like hence my question who are you so uh I think um as much as like that time that I had off was like one of the hardest times emotionally ever.

34:41It definitely was to this point in my life. And I know I might go through something else in the future, but up until this moment, that's been the hardest year of my life emotionally and for my career and everything. And, um, but looking back, I'm really grateful for it because it really made me learn a lot about myself.

34:55Dr. Michael Gervais:Okay. So just for clarity, you are rolling on the world stage. Like you are one of the top three, five best in the world. Is that fair? And then you decide you're going to kind of pull the chute and you're going to pull out of your career and you took a break. Yeah. Right. And in elite sport, it's considered a dangerous thing to do because elite sport is happening. The progression of sport is happening so fast. And when I heard that you were doing that, I thought, oh boy, watch out because she's going to, she's going to go dial in. She's going to go attack her mental emotional part of herself the same way she attacks the technical physical part of being an elite surfer and i thought it's on like competitors watch out and i know that you probably would not have felt that because it was dark and hard i was just gonna say like it's cool that you thought that way because i thought the opposite um in that moment yeah what did you think oh i just was like you know all the questions like am i ever gonna come back to how i was before Or like, am I ever going to be able to be at that level again?

35:59Like, can I handle it emotionally? Like more than the physical part, I just emotionally, I'm like, am I going to be able to handle this? Like, that's just so, I just remember the emotions were so extreme. Like, just so like you're on the highest of the highs and then the lowest of the lows when you lose. And it just was like so much to handle. And then I'm like trying to figure out who I am as a person. I'm like, well, who am I? Like what, you know, like you just, it's confusing kind of. I think COVID had a big, big part to do with that too. just kind of like everything being on pause and then I just had to sit there and be like

36:30Dr. Michael Gervais:wait a second what do I what do I do now what are you feeling as you say it it's kind of emotional for me like looking back to how I felt in that when like when I was just in that state of mind I was so like low you know and it was pretty sad um but at the same time it's so beautiful too because like I know where I'm at now and the best things in my career have happened after I went through the hardest time of my life which is so beautiful and it's such like a big part of my story. And now I'm almost proud of it. But I think as an athlete, what I've struggled with is being vulnerable sometimes is shown as like a weakness.

37:01And I think I kind of like reframed that thinking to like being vulnerable is actually really powerful. And a lot of people feel like the things that I felt. And so once I was like open about how I was feeling and, you know, like struggling with motivation and not really enjoying surfing as much and just mentally not being in a good place, you know, once I was open about that, I was like, well, so many people can relate to this and like, I'm not alone. And that just made me feel so much better.

37:24Dr. Michael Gervais:What did you just do two minutes ago when you were flooded with all those emotions, when they were right at the surface, you allowed some emotions to come to the surface. And then did you make a decision like, no, I'm not going to open it up all the way, or I'm just going to recognize that they're there and see where they go. Like, what did you just do? Yeah, definitely. Like, you know, I definitely, I don't really want to cry on the podcast to be honest so yeah you hold him back no i'm it's okay i'm fine you guys no i'm just i promise no but i think yeah was that the guiding thought like i don't want to cry no no i has to i think um i think just kind of like peeling it back but i'll just reframe my thinking of like oh it's maybe like yeah in the moment it was sad but now i'm like so proud of it so it's actually like a happy thought almost so i think just like both i think yeah for sure happy sad.

38:16Dr. Michael Gervais:Because I think what you just did is probably part of your crown jewel is that you don't stuff it down. You feel a lot and then it comes up to the surface. And if there's a lot of sadness, like that's hard to work with. And so you said, I'm going to take a break. Okay. So when there's a lot of joy, it comes to the surface and you're like, oh, this is easy. So I think I just saw one of your crown jewels, which is the emotions came back up, which was like, it was dark. It was hard. I was sad. I was lonely. And then you're like, yeah, but then I worked through it. So then the other set of emotions came through.

38:53So I think that that is probably part of like

38:58Dr. Michael Gervais:the demystifying why you're so good at what you do. That's cool. I've never thought of it like that. But I guess now that you just said that makes a lot of sense. Like, yeah, that's really cool. So stay here for just one more kind of turn of the screw. Was it lonely? Was it sad? Was it what was the main thing that was a fatigue? I think my priorities were a little bit out of whack. Like surfing wasn't my number one priority anymore. And I was focused on other things. I think I wasn't around the best group of people. I wasn't making the best decisions. That kind of led into some like depression and just not really enjoying where I was at, which is crazy because I feel like I've always been a very like I was raised so well, like great childhood, like great family, you know, very positive, no, like, you know, talking down me or anything like that.

39:44I feel like I've always been a really happy, secure person. And then I kind of found myself pretty insecure and just overthinking everything and worried about what everyone thinks about me. And, you know, it's hard. You grow up in a bikini in front of a camera and it's a very subjective sport. And I've been doing it since I've been like 12. So like at some point, I think all those emotions now looking back, I didn't realize this in the moment, but looking back, I'm like, oh, like, no wonder you, like, got burned out. Like, fair enough. You know, like, there's a lot that you kind of went through.

40:15And, and it is sometimes a bit lonely. Like, you know, in order to get to the top, it's pretty lonely. And I think you have to be really good at managing those emotions, which is hard for someone that loves people and loves family and loves those deep connections. Like, it's crazy, because, like, I talked to this about, like, Lakey Peterson's one of my good friends on tour, and we laugh about it, because, like, she's, like, it, we, there's, like this wall that's up. Like we're really good friends, but there's this like wall because like you don't want to get that close. But I'm also like, dang, like I can relate to you more than like any of my other friends.

40:46Cause we do the literal exact same thing. You know, we have the same feelings, but we're not really going to talk about that until this is all done with. And we kind of laugh about it, you know, because it's so true. Um, but I don't know. It's just, it's a, yeah, a lot to deal with, but I feel like I've now have found a really good balance, um, with my emotions like I'm a lot more even keeled than I used to be I think and that also comes with maturity too I think you just kind of get more used to like okay cool I think this will be my eighth year on tour now so you kind of just learn how to deal with those emotions and also find what works for you like I think when you're younger you're kind of looking at everyone else like what are they doing and now I'm just like I'm so secure in my own program and that's been that's been

41:25Dr. Michael Gervais:really cool so how much time did you invest in your psychology a lot I mean when I took time off it was like six months of like intensive therapy. Like all, like I didn't touch a surfboard. Like it was all like, okay, who's Caroline, you know? And like, I also went home to, cause I live in California, originally from Florida. Um, but I went back to Florida and like, just went back to my roots and just was like with my family and just like, just back to how I grew up. And I think that was really, really helpful and really cool. When it comes to living a great life, I think it's something we all want.

41:59Dr. Michael Gervais:I think we want it for our nephews and nieces or kids. I think we want it for our loved ones with one of ourselves to live a great life. And I'm not sure you can have that if you don't have one of these big rocks to put in that container, which is who am I? What is a compelling future that I want to work toward? And what are the first principles and values that I'm going to navigate this twisted world? For sure. You know, twisting, I should say, world. And so So that big rock, like who am I? That's, I mean, once you kind of ring that bell and it's like, that's who, yeah, that now I understand me and I understand like my, my core.

42:38It's crazy. It's a crazy thing. I don't know. It's, it's a funny thing being an athlete. Cause it's almost like a reverse career in a way. Like you start very young and you finish very young, you know, like a lot of people, like, I don't know, like if you go to college and it's like a normal, like you're getting your life started almost at like 30. I mean, some people younger and stuff, but you're like more established where like as a surfer, like you're starting at like 12 and you're like, I don't know if you 30 or what, that's like 15 years on tour. It's like, so think about those years. Like you're so vulnerable.

43:07You're so young. You're learning so much about yourself. But you're also put on this like stage of like, you're supposed to be perfect and have everything figured out. So I think like just kind of balancing that has been interesting.

43:18Dr. Michael Gervais:You've slid a few things in here, which is your connection to your body in a public setting. Your sport is critiqued and judged. And that collapses on the way that you look and the way that you perform. So there's a body thing in there. Like there's an art and a skill and it's being judged by others. And you still don't know your identity. You're a teenager. So how could you? Yeah. So there's a lot and you slipped in there like the loneliness to make it to the top. I'm glad you said that. Yeah, it's true. It's real. Like and I I don't know now I almost love it because like I don't think like super hard, like super good things like don't come easy.

44:02Right. And it's almost like fun. Like if you like reframe your thinking about it, it's almost like fun. Like, OK, cool. Like this is really hard right now, but I know like it'll be so worth it in the end, you know. So I think just reframing that. But sometimes you're, you know, you're in a hotel room, you're in a different country. Like, you know, you have you're on a different time zone. You know, your friends can't call your friends. You're kind of just like it's raining outside. The waves are bad. You're just sitting there like, well, this is kind of hard. Like, you know what I mean?

44:28Dr. Michael Gervais:And the handful of people that really understand are your competitors. Totally. But you can't really talk to them because like you're trying to beat them. I mean, you can, but it's like kind of weird. You know, it's like this weird wall that's up. Like we're we actually all are really good friends. Like, I mean, I see these girls more than my family. You know, like we're on tour so much. But I think if you had any of them sit down here, they would say like there is like a little bit of a wall that you just you don't go like that deep because, you know, you have that competitive build block up.

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47:31I can only, I guess, speak from like personal experience. For me, it was like just being around those people that like really care about you, whether that's like friends. For me, I'm so lucky. I have such a great family and great friends and just it's OK to like seek help and get support. Like, you know, like people that really care for you will be there for you. And sometimes like the people that care about you know you better than you know yourself. So I think leaning on those people for me was really helpful. Like my family in those moments, they're like, you probably should take some time off.

48:04And I was already thinking that way, but they kind of just helped me make that decision.

48:07Dr. Michael Gervais:Let's do one more. This is great. Can you speak to the teenager, probably a girl that is struggling with how her body looks or how she feels in her own body? And maybe she's in a public sport, you know, whatever, but just as somebody that is overly connected to how they feel in their body and they don't like how it feels. Can you speak to her or him? This is something that I've like constantly had to work on. Like I said, you know, I'm in a bikini a lot of the times I grew up in front of a camera as a girl, there's a lot of hormones and things are changing all the time and whatever you sometimes look good.

48:43Like, like I can look good today. And then tomorrow I'm like, gosh, I don't feel like I look that great. You know, like we all know how that feels. um and I think then like that's when being around people that make you feel good I think is really important also doing what makes you happy like everyone has such a different body type and everyone like they're healthy looks so different you know and I think just knowing that and accepting that is really cool and just being proud of that like you know being strong is beautiful and it's allowing me to like surf and do the things that I love so much you know and so yeah I just think genetically everyone everyone's made it look so different that's what's so cool about the world.

49:19Like if everyone looked the same, it would be boring, you know? So I think just understanding that is really, really cool, but it is something that I'm constantly working on it. And I think a lot of girls can probably relate to that.

49:30Dr. Michael Gervais:I have a first principle in life that everything you need, Caroline, is already inside of you. And so my partnership with that, or my part in that with you is to, to go back to your answers are already inside of you. So you don't need anybody else to feel completely at home with yourself, wherever you are on a 15 foot, you know, wave of consequence or an intimate conversation or walking and feeling vulnerable because there's a camera or people looking at you like it's already in you. So I would go back to that first principle and like, okay, is it working? And you go, no, that's why we're talking.

50:06Dr. Michael Gervais:I say, okay, well, what would you want to change? And you say, well, I want to lose weight or I want to gain muscle or I just want not care. Great. Now we've got a plan. Totally. Right. It's a thinking thing. It's a feeling thing. And then we would practice, you know, kind of radical honesty and compassion in the way that you speak to yourself. Yeah. Which I think is actually quite rare for most of us. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's also even more rare for elite athletes. Are you more critical or are you more of a great coach to yourself? Do you back yourself or you cut yourself? A little bit of both.

50:39Dr. Michael Gervais:And I don't mean cutting like that. I mean, like, cut yourself down a little bit of both i think being critical is good and to an extent like you know i think what does that sound like when you're critical i think just like on a wave or something i'm like god do not do that turn it like what are you doing you know what i mean like and that's just me like wanting to get better and just like you know what i mean so i think that you don't say i'm so stupid i'm so that um no i've said that well honestly i'm pretty like sarcastic like i'm kind of like that a little bit but i guess it is coming out of my mouth so maybe i should breathe we might need to talk.

51:12Do you talk to yourself in third person or first person? A little bit of both. Like I'm a little bit like I will say I do feel like I do feel like I have a pretty healthy balance of of like of not talking down on myself, but also like being critical to where like, OK, like not being super satisfied. Like I want to I want more and like I want to keep getting better. You know, I think that's really important, too, and really healthy.

51:37Dr. Michael Gervais:Yeah. So you believe that you can do more. You believe there's more, there's, you can put it more on the edge. Totally. You can trust yourself on the bottom, turn a little bit more. You can hold a line that's hard to hold a little bit longer. So you believe there's more in you. Absolutely. Do you think there's more in you? Do you know there's more in you? Or do you believe? I believe because I, and I've also like, I've seen it with other athletes too. Like I look at like my peers, like a Stephanie Gilmore or even a Carissa Moore. And I'm like, you know. Explain to the listener who might not know them.

52:08Stephanie Gilmore is the she's the GOAT greatest female surfer of all time has eight world titles um incredible also just such a great human and um Carissa Moore is also one of the GOATs five

52:19Dr. Michael Gervais:world titles first Olympic gold medalist um which is your teammate competitor yeah exactly um you know I look at them and I'm like Stephanie Gilmore she won the world title when she was like she didn't win the world title for a few years and then she got the eighth world title um she was in her in her 30s and I look at that I'm like I'm 23 like I can have the best years ahead of me and now with all like the science that's out with like how you can you know the training and like the nutrition like you can stay healthy for so much longer which is really cool do you think you're gonna be the goat no I don't know we'll see oh you do I don't know I saw it you don't want to say it no I like it no I like that yes I'm definitely I look I I don't know no I think what I I think you know I I saw it in, this is what I'm saying.

53:03Dr. Michael Gervais:When we were in Tokyo and the way you handled the complexity of those emotions, your technical, your style of surfing is world leading. It's not just world class. You are pushing. And so is Carissa. For sure. Right? And take nothing away from Lakey. And like, she's a really powerful surfer as well. But the way that you are managing your internal life in an honest way is the largest pillar to get the foundation right. And you're well on your path. Thank you. Yeah. And I don't think you're just going to take casually your physical fitness and your technical fitness. And I don't think that you're going to take any of that stuff casually.

53:45Dr. Michael Gervais:The thing for you will be to make sure that you manage your energy properly so you don't lose the love affair with with progression with growth totally and i think that's the in at women's women's sports in general which is like so cool like the progression in all women's sports is just skyrocketing which is like so cool to see but especially i think in surfing um it's the talent level is just like it's going like this like at such a fast pace so i think keeping up with that is um it's definitely a really fun challenge you know and also like i think with having now the world title and the gold medal, like you have to find different ways to be motivated and stuff like that.

54:23So, um, I think these younger girls coming up are something that's been really motivating for me. And even though they're, I guess only a few years younger than me, it's still like, I'm like, I don't, you know, you still want to, you have that fire in you. They, they fire you up, which is pretty cool.

54:36Dr. Michael Gervais:Competition's amazing. It is. It's great. Yeah. It really does keep us on our toes, on our edges, if you will. So wait, wait, I distracted us because I was asking about the goat, but how do you, you believe there's more in you. So it gives you some sort of more space to be able to be critical. I'm not a fan of critical self-talk because it starts to niche away or chip away at like the belief. So if you think about like you've got this crown jewel and each time you say something to yourself, like, I suck, I'm stupid, I'm this. It's just you take a tiny little bit off. I don't know if that's what you're doing or not.

55:12Dr. Michael Gervais:It feels like you're also replenishing that by the way that you back yourself for sure so how do you back yourself how do you how does it sound in your head when you are coaching yourself you know in an amazing way well I think for me just doing the things that like whether that's like training really hard or putting the hours in the water like doing things like a lot of practice like I feel like that like leads to confidence like just what do you say to yourself just saying like hey I did everything I can to prepare for this heat right now this event right now, like me, Caroline, like I put everything I can into being my best.

55:48And that just like, how can you not be more confident when you feel that way? But if you, you know, if you're doing things that maybe aren't, you know, aren't making you the best version of yourself, like that could cause some like doubt and insecurity and stuff like that. So I think, and that's like the only thing, there's not many things you can control in life and in the world. And I think that's something you can control is like how hard you work. And I think knowing that, um, and, and like doing that breeds confidence for me, at least.

56:16Dr. Michael Gervais:Did you train at that kind of 10 out of 10 level going into the, um, into both games? Yeah. Yeah, I did. I think the second one, I was a little bit more prepared just because the first one, I didn't know what to expect. Everything was new. Surfing was also never in the Olympics. So like, you know, I had no idea, like everything just felt like, I know, I feel like I was going in blindfolded. I was like, what do I have to expect here? And not that I didn't watch the Olympics before, but I was so fixated on surfing that, you know, it wasn't in it. So I didn't really pay too much attention to the Summer Olympics.

56:48And now I'm like the biggest fan ever. I think it's the coolest thing ever. But the second time I was a bit more prepared, I'd say, and just mentally stronger, you know, like just for everything I've gone through and just being more emotionally tapped in with myself.

57:02Dr. Michael Gervais:What was it like for you to wear the USA jersey and to represent the flag and the people of the country? Oh, it was incredible. Like it's, it's kind of hard to like articulate the words to like, for that feeling, um, with anything in the Olympics, like it's so like, I remember when I first qualified for the team, my parents were like, you don't realize like how big of a deal this is. And I didn't at all until I went. And then I was like, wow, this is like such a powerful, like honorable feeling. Like you just sort of like, I'm representing my country. Like this is the coolest thing ever. Um, and surfing, it's such a small pool.

57:36Like it's, it's not like a huge team so it's like kind of very on you um it's incredible it's coolest thing

57:42Dr. Michael Gervais:ever can you take us to the so you you took fourth in tokyo which is as you've established and i 100 agree it's the hardest position in the olympics you win third you win gold you lose gold and get a second though you when you when you lose gold you get a second when you lose the third fourth match, you get nothing. You get the experience, which is meaningful in a lot of ways, but you don't get the kind of that the hardware, if you will. Okay. So when you were in Tahiti for the last Olympics, going into that match where, or into that heat where you either go home with nothing or you advance to the medal round.

58:28Dr. Michael Gervais:Do you remember that heat? Yeah. Like the, it's, I love that you bring this up. Cause that was like, when people ask me like what was like the most like emotional heat for you like that heat was more emotional for me than the gold medal because like I remember what it felt like to lose and it was like not a good feeling at all um and I remember like when I was I was in this heat with Joanne DeFay and like if I you know if I made it I was in the gold medal match I didn't and I remember I like needed a seven and I got a seven like exactly the score which is like really rare in surfing and I won like on the highest count back like my top score was higher than her we were tied but my highest score was higher than hers.

59:05So it was like as close as it gets, it was really slow that day, the waves. So that, you know, sometimes it's pretty nerve wracking when you're going into a heat and the waves are very slow, you know, cause you gotta be very selective and very smart and you kind of have to have some luck on your side too. Um, and I remember I just like started crying. Like I was just crying because I was just like, Oh my gosh, like I'm getting, no matter what, like I'm, you know, I'm not getting forth.

59:26Dr. Michael Gervais:I'm on the podium and yeah, I'm on the podium. You know what I mean? Like, and then after that, we had like six lay days until the final day. But I remember that was like a huge, huge moment for me, super emotional moment for me. I'm more interested in what it was like on the boat or the beach. It's a boat in Tahiti, but pre-surf. How did you manage your pre-surf mindset and emotions going into a thing that the last time you were in that situation was traumatic for you? I feel like I was pretty like when I was there I felt like I had great equipment like I was around we had a great team again and um like you said in Tokyo like it was cool even though it was a bummer it was COVID like it was cool in a way because we were all like kind of forced to be together and Tahiti was like kind of like that too because it's you're on an island so like we had our family staying and stuff but like most of the time we were all together so I think just you know we had John John and Griffin Colapinto was on the team he's like a good friend of mine um and then Carissa again, which was really cool.

1:00:22Katie Simmers is also a good friend of mine. Like we just had a great, like great team. We're all pushing each other in a very healthy way, like going against each other, but also like pushing each other, which was really cool. Um, and I felt pretty present, like surprisingly, I felt pretty present and just very like grateful to be there. And I wouldn't say as, as fearful, you know, I think I was just kind of like, whatever happens happens, you know, but I do know I was like putting in, in the work, like leading up to all those like free service and stuff, which again, kind of gave me a lot of confidence.

1:00:52Dr. Michael Gervais:So you've given three kind of variables there. As you were facing down a moment that the last time you faced it, you came on the short side of the outcome that you wanted, but you gained a lot of experience. Call it small T trauma, right? Is that fair to say? Yes. Yeah. And then, so in that, when you're repeating a similar type scenario, you go to gratitude, You go to acknowledging the work that you put in it. And what was the third thing that you said? I had it in my head. Yeah, just being around good. I think I said like good equipment, but also like being around good people and surfing. I don't know.

1:01:26I felt like I was in a good rhythm with surfing. Oh, you said present.

1:01:29Dr. Michael Gervais:Yeah, being present. Being present. Okay. So that's kind of your, let's call it, I don't know, equation. If I'm present and if I'm grateful, if I'm around good people and I'm backing myself that I put in the work. Yeah. And then there was this thing of trust. Like whatever happens, like I've done my very best. Totally. Is that right? Yeah. So there's your there's a bit of your formula for success under pressure. Yeah. And like sometimes it changes. I don't know. Like sometimes I've also gone into competing and like not feeling that great and like kind of doubting myself. And it works out, too.

1:02:02Like that's the crazy thing about like competing. And that's sometimes where your talent kind of kind of overtake your emotions sometimes.

1:02:09Dr. Michael Gervais:By the way, that's what most people do. Yeah. They over-index on physical and technical and under-index on mental. And their physical, technical just kind of show up in a way that is not as good as they could be, but it's good enough for that moment. But it's like an empty meal. It doesn't feel great. It's like relief as opposed to like, I really brought my stuff. Totally. Yeah. But okay, two more questions here. How do you train gratitude and how do you train being present? um being present that's something I've had to really work on for sure I think that's it's hard because like we're always looking forward to a date like I'm always like okay like I'm here right now but like in two weeks I got this event and I'm booking this flight and like that you know you're just constantly looking ahead and I think athletes are very future oriented which is great but also like I think it is important to be present I think that's we're having a very healthy mindset like not having for me like I was telling you before but like a lot of times when I talk to a psych like a therapist it's like not much about surfing it's all about like my personal life and I feel like for me when my personal life is in check surfing a lot of things flow like it just everything feels so much easier like it's never easy but it feels a lot easier so I think for me when when I'm good up here and like I'm just happy with everything and not everything's gonna be perfect you know but that's when I feel the most present for sure yeah me too yeah I think a lot of people can probably relate to that.

1:03:35Dr. Michael Gervais:I appreciate the simplicity and how you're saying it. Yeah. It's, I mean, you know, I, I'm definitely not like, I have so much to work on, like I'm, but I'm figuring it out. Me too. But I, I kind of am starting to understand some things, which has been really fun. And then gratitude, I think just like being all around the world and like seeing different parts of the world has, I'm like, wow, like we're We're really lucky to live the lives we do. And I think just being raised the right way too, like how my, my, the outlook of life that my family's kind of taught me has, has been, has been really good and positive.

1:04:13So yeah, those two things.

1:04:15Dr. Michael Gervais:I think reference points, having really interesting, compelling, just reference points in life is part of a high performance approach. so as many reference points as you can gather whether it's you know in sport or outside of sport they become almost these guideposts about like oh wait i've seen or smelt or i've experienced something close to that or like well listen this is really hard but it's not like what i saw over there reference points is a really important part of living a great life yeah yeah okay so So thank you for letting me understand kind of how your psychology works for you to navigate this confusing world.

1:04:57Dr. Michael Gervais:And it's not lost on me the investment you've made in your inner life to be able to change kind of the way that other people see what's possible. You are a beacon for so many. And so thank you for the friendship over the years. And thank you for being an inspiration to so many. And this has been awesome. Awesome. Thank you so much. It's been super fun. love it wait before we go can can you give us a little treat can you share the metal with us of course yeah

1:05:33show and tell yeah awesome i like i almost like the back of it better because it's like it's like paris on it which is cool um wow but yeah yeah look at that can hold it

1:05:48Dr. Michael Gervais:Look at that. It's pretty cool. I like this part. And in the middle of it, that's the Eiffel Tower, as you know. Yeah. Just really cool. This was the only games that they pair snuck in their icon on the back. So the front is always different and the back is always the same. And this back, for all the games, the back is the same. I didn't know that. Except for this one, they snuck in the Eiffel Tower. Wow. Yeah, which is really cool. And then this is a piece of the Eiffel Tower. Yeah. Right? The Eiffel, it was so cool to see. Like it light up every like 30 minutes it lit up or something, had the rings on it.

1:06:21It's the coolest thing ever.

1:06:23Dr. Michael Gervais:Caroline, thank you so much for spending time with us today. Thanks for having me.

1:06:32Dr. Michael Gervais:Next time on Finding Mastery, we're going back to the vault with Dr. Robert Waldinger, psychiatrist, Zen teacher, and director of the longest study on human happiness ever conducted at Harvard. In this conversation, Dr. Waldinger and Dr. Gervais explored what truly makes life meaningful and revealed a single factor proven to increase happiness, health, and even longevity. Quick hint, it's not diet and it's not exercise. Join us Wednesday, November 26th at 9am Pacific, only on Finding Mastery. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you.

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1:08:26Dr. Michael Gervais:If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your health care providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.