The Psychology Of Building Team Culture | Eddie Jones

23:29Dr. Michael Gervais:Don't let it sit. You are known for high performance feedback in that way. So immediacy is better than waiting. Yeah, generally speaking. Yeah, I found that if you publicly humiliate somebody, I'm not sure you really ever get them back. You have to publicly apologize and make it right. It's really tricky. How did you do it where you would call somebody out directly early days? Or do you think that you made more mistakes than you didn't and that's why you? I don't think I ever wanted to embarrass a player, you know, so I'd do it discreetly but immediately. Okay. Just pull them aside, have a word to them.

24:05Certainly there was times I've done it the other way and you never want to humiliate a player. You know, you always want to give them a chance to come back because everyone makes mistakes and particularly under the pressure of sport, you know, you make mistakes in the situation. So you want to give them an opportunity to open the door again. And generally, I would do it privately, discreetly, but immediately.

24:31Dr. Michael Gervais:And are you coaching to make mistakes and to learn, to get them right to the edge? Or are you coaching so they don't make mistakes? Well, I reckon this is the great thing about sport. Yeah, I don't know NFL. I watch the training and everything seems so organized. But then I see highlight plays and the great quarterbacks just do it off the cuff, don't they? Yeah. Yeah. Side home and like, yeah. Like the guy from, is it Kansas? Kansas Chiefs? Oh, yeah. Mahomes. Like he seems an absolute freak. So I think you've always got to create training sessions that prepare the players for the game. The game's not certain.

25:14The game is far from being certain. And in rugby, you know, statistically 40 % is structured and 60 % is unstructured. So you've got to create trainings that allow them to meet those game day demands. Like I think the game gives you the greatest feedback, you know. So your training's got to be geared towards the game and harder than the game. Like so the game should become easy for the players.

25:42Dr. Michael Gervais:So that's why you create high pressure in practice? Yeah. And when they make mistakes in practice, do you celebrate it? Do you learn it? Do you just treat it like it's part of it? And the reason I'm asking is because in the business world, most of our audience are people that when they make decisions, there's a ripple effect. They have influence in the worlds that they're in. And we say a lot, like fail fast, fail off and fail forward. But then environments don't really feel like it's inviting that. And there's a lot of anxiety about making mistakes. and I'm just wondering how you handle that.

26:15In our game particularly, if you haven't got mistakes at training, you're not training to the level you need to be. You know, we talk about there's a sweet spot of about 70%. So you want your training to be about 70 % successful. And then you're getting 30 % failure and there are huge learning opportunities, that 30%.

26:35Dr. Michael Gervais:Are you measuring that or is that a little bit of a feel? Approximately. The longer you coach, the more you get the feel for it. But if I see a training that's 100%, everything's perfect, then you're not practicing the game. I haven't really been involved in business. But I would imagine in business you've got to make mistakes to actually have a chance to be successful. Otherwise, if you're always 100%, you're always underneath the ceiling. Because above that ceiling, we know there's more to go. So you've got to be pushing that all the time. Let's stay on relationships here for a minute. When you think of building relationships with your people, How do you do it?

27:13Well, I think more and more now. Coaching's, I think, moved from being very team-based to now being much more individual-based. And I think, again, the younger players now respond much better to one-on-ones. So, yeah, before we'd have a lot of team activity, a lot of social teams activity that you'd get to know the players. But now I think it's much more purposeful about one-on-one trying to get to understand the player. And not that you didn't do that before, but now I think you've got to be much more purposeful about it. And just try to find out a little bit about that player, what motivates them, what's important in their life.

27:56You know, we were talking before, what's the best game they've ever played, what's the worst game they've ever played, and get an understanding of where they were. I had this kid the other day. You know, he wasn't training very well. and I said to him, what's the best game you've ever played? He said, oh, I was at university and we didn't have a great catch so we took on all the responsibility and we played really well. We didn't win but we played really well and it was satisfying. I said, so what's the worst game you've ever played? He said, oh, we had a really good team but it was all driven by the catch so we just did what we were told.

28:30I didn't say anything. I didn't think it was right and we still didn't win. And so I said to him, so which one are you now? and he thought he said well i want to be the university i said well what's stopping you and he had to think about it and he didn't know but from that day onwards his performance at training just improved immeasurably and i had a little nickname for him then about his university or his high school which one are you today who are you today your high school

29:00Dr. Michael Gervais:or university yeah that's good our community at finding master would recognize me saying this, but you just kind of walked right into the insight, which is masterful coaches ask way more questions than amateur coaches. Amateur coaches say a lot, but directionally are not very accurate. High performance coaches have this blend between asking a lot of questions or asking a fair amount of questions, but like giving direction that are more pretty accurate. But the best of the best of the best coaches are constantly asking questions. They do some teaching, of course. So you find questions to be an important unlock.

29:38Dr. Michael Gervais:It's interesting. Some players need to be told, and that's how you get the best response for them. But I think generally most players respond now particularly well to being asked questions. So if you look at the range of being explicit, implicit, I think you're always bouncing between them and you're trying to work out for that player and for that group what the right influence is. What does that mean between explicit and implicit? Well, explicit. You're saying directly. Direct telling, correcting. When implicit, you're giving them situations to work it out themselves. So I think, yeah, I always feel, right, where do I need to be today?

30:21Because in your mind, you've got like a graph between those two.

30:25Dr. Michael Gervais:And you're doing it for each individual or you're doing it for the team? You're trying to. You're trying to. Yeah, of course. You don't get it right. But, you know, I know there's a few players that I've got, all they want to do is be told by me. They don't want to think about it. Yeah, and they respond well to that. And then they might want that and if they respond well, you can keep doing it. But then they might want it but they're not responding, then you might have to change your ways. And I think the other part of that I think is one of the most important things in sporting environments is you've always got to be thinking about the context of where you are.

31:02You know, where is that player today? What's happened to him? You know, I was lucky enough in England to meet at St Alex Ferguson a few times and he had this great story. He said they built a new training centre and he made sure he had his office overlooking the car park. And he'd say he'd stand there with a cup of tea, like you were drinking, and he'd watch the players come out of their car and if he saw a player getting out of the car, bit restless on the phone. Yeah. Something's going on. Yeah. Whether it's his wife's unhappy, his girlfriend's unhappy, he'd go down and he'd purposely, you know, talk to him and say, how are you, mate?

31:41You know, is there anything I can help you with today?

31:44Dr. Michael Gervais:That's a relational approach to the game. That's a relational mindset, if you will. Are you more focused on excellence or are you more focused on the person, the behavior that the person does or the person that is doing the behavior i've never really thought about that i think initially when i first when i first coach was about knowledge yeah it was when you're a young coach you think you've got all this knowledge you want to impart it you want to be the smartest guy in the room i think as i've moved on it's sort of become more I'd hope a bit more rounded, that some players it's more personal and relationship-wise, other players it's more about performance.

32:29So again, trying to find a sweet spot for that player because I think, like we were saying, about 70 % and 30 % for your training, I think also for every player there's a certain sweet spot you're trying to hit where you're trying to connect with that player, get the right relationship with them, get the right level of understanding. And some players, you know, you just can't, it's hard to break them down. You know, with other players, it's quite easy. So, you know, there's that continual battle going on.

32:59Dr. Michael Gervais:Let's stay on the relationship here a little bit longer because I think this is at the center of the whole thing. I think relationships are at the foundation for everything we're doing. And it starts with your relationship with yourself and then moves outward. And I think in many high performing business environments, it's a little bit like, yeah, but they do it that way in sport, but there's no time to do it that way in business. So can you maybe speak to like the informal nature of getting to know people? Because very rarely does the head coach sit with the players or his assistant coaches and say, tell me all about yourself.

33:34Dr. Michael Gervais:There's some of that that happens, but it's more, my experience has been more informal. Is that the way it is for you as well? A hundred percent. Yeah. So how do you do it informally? Like what are the, I think, you know, you've got to roam the room. Yeah, you've got to spend time purposely looking. I think Daniel Coyle talks about collisions. Yeah, purposeful collisions. And I think you've got to be like that. You know, so every time you walk in a room, there's an opportunity to either add to the business or take away from the business. Like, you know, one of the things that's probably always struck me, and I pinched this from another person, so it's not my originality, But I think you're either, every conversation you had, you're either adding to the business or you're taking away from the business.

34:18Dr. Michael Gervais:Yeah, I like the idea that you're either creating constriction in the environment or you are opening the environment, you know, so same thing. Good way. So are you tuning to yourself, knowing how your way of being is going to impact the others, or are you purposely focusing on them on how you'll add to it? I think, first of all, you've got to start with yourself. You walk in a room and you're shuffling, you've got your head down. It's sending a message to the, particularly when you're the leader or the organiser, sending a message. Whereas if you walk in, you're bouncing, you're saying, how are you today, mate?

34:54How's your sun going? You're talking, you're setting the environment for people to engage, then you're setting the time for the day.

35:05Dr. Michael Gervais:Research is pretty clear that leaders set a tone for the emotion of the culture. How do you think that your players feel around you? I would hope, and I don't know, and it's probably a good question to ask, but they're probably not going to tell me the truth. They'll tell other people the truth. That they feel like coach that cares about them, that it's an environment that allows them to get better. And they feel like when they come into the organization, it's going to be tough, but they're going to get better as a player. And I think that's, you know, at our level, the players all want to get better.

35:45You know, they all want to get, but some of them don't know how to get better. And so you've got to find the ways to help them get better.

35:51Dr. Michael Gervais:We've all made mistakes. And the idea is hopefully we learn from those mistakes so we don't repeat them, both tactically on the field and then relational in leadership. And when you think back to the mistakes that you've made, what are the general themes? I'm not looking for the specific story that you cross somebody this way or whatever, but generally what are the mistakes you made? Because I want to go back to context is that you're a direct, hard-nosed, high-pressured, identity-building, high-standard coach. Yeah. Say we're in this room now, right? and we've just lost against Pittsburgh Steelers.

36:32Like there's going to be all this noise banging on the roof, right? You know, this and that, this and that. Media. Yeah, media. And possibly from players as well, you know. And so I think one of the things, mistakes I've made is sometimes allowed that to affect me. You know, I feel like now the roof's coming down on top of me And I think that's always one of the most difficult things of being a leader, you know, that you've got to keep that ceiling high, acknowledge that there's noise there and maybe listen to it and work out what's true, you know. And there I think the staff that you have, having someone experienced, you know, it seems like in American sport at the moment, like a head coach generally wants to get someone experienced to help them.

37:23that's experienced the noise, that understands it, and just stay clear about where you need to go and what you need to do. And if there is some good information out there, take it, absorb it, put it into your program.

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40:00Dr. Michael Gervais:Exclusive for our listeners. That's Lisa, L-E-E-S-A.com. And use the promo code mastery for 30 % off. Select mattresses. Plus, an extra$50 off when you use the code mastery. How do you do it? how do you keep tuned to the signal? Getting old. I think, like, yeah, even probably three years ago I made some mistakes in that. You know, I allowed it to come on top of me rather than just accept it. But I just keep on, you've got to be aware of it, you know, and then you've got to find a way to keep your balance, keep your thinking clear. like i was saying to a young guy last night that one of the most important things about being a leader is is giving yourself thinking time you know allow yourself whatever it is however you do it whether it be at night whether it be a morning whether you do it regularly each month give yourself some clear thinking time i love that is this a daily practice for you or is it more like a weekly practice?

41:06Dr. Michael Gervais:No. Well, for me, generally speaking, I'll get up really early, around four. Oh my God. And I'll try to use that first hour to set the tone for the day. Like think about what I want to do, write notes, be clear about what I want to achieve today. And then I'll go to the gym and then I'm ready for the day. why four because it just gives me enough time like i need it i need about two hours before i start work work starts at six well around around that you know so it's an hour hour of thinking and an hour of physical exercise how much of that thinking time it's journaling for sure how much of that is meditation how much of that is just quietly you know aware of your thoughts I'm hopeless like that.

42:01Dr. Michael Gervais:Zero. Zero. So it's writing mostly. Writing, yeah. Wait, you're writing for an hour? Oh, well, approximately. Yeah. And I might be watching some vision as well. Yeah. What's that mean? Watching some rugby. Some tape? Yeah. Some film? And that's where I get my best thinking time. And I think, yeah, one of the things for any person is to work out what's your best thinking time. All right. Emotions. Do you approach the World Cup or do you approach championship moments as a big moment or another moment? How do you go about those tests? Well, the World Cup's once every four years. For three years, you're putting everything into it.

42:41So I think, yeah, I've never really thought about it in that way. But when I think about it now, it's a big moment. And I can always remember in 2015 with Japan, you know, we were on the bus going to the game against South Africa and I was feeling sick. Like I remember saying to the S &C coach, we've put four years into this and we've got no idea. Because you never really know how your team's going to play. You know, you do all the preparation, they've done well and, yeah, it's the only time as a coach you're hoping because something can happen that upsets you. So, yeah, no, always treat it as a big moment because you put so much work and for four years, it's all towards that one tournament.

43:21And you've got three or four games at the start of it to get right.

43:24Dr. Michael Gervais:So how do you help your athletes and your coaches work well with pressure? What do you do? Because pressure for the most part is a made up construct. And what that means is that you're interpreting an environment or set of conditions in such a way that you think that you need to think or act faster than you're capable of thinking or acting. And so that's really pressure. It's like it feels like the walls are kind of closing in. Everything gets tighter. It feels a little bit maybe darker. There's a tension involved in it. How do you help your athletes work with pressure? I think firstly you've got to acknowledge it, that it's there, and that's important because most of these games now, you know, you go to a Super Bowl final, there's a consequence, isn't there?

44:10In other games you play league games and the consequence is not so high. And it doesn't matter whether you say it's just another game. It has huge consequences. What are the consequences? Well, if you win a Super Bowl, you're happy to start with. There's always one happy team, one unhappy team. And there's financial rewards, status rewards, all those sort of things that people think about, and they do. So firstly, you've got to acknowledge it. Secondly, you've got to prepare them for that perceived pressure. So make sure you dress rehearse that as much as you can. How do you do that? Sometimes it might be setting up a training session where the players are constantly under pressure.

44:57I can remember one session we had with England where we put the weakest forward pack with the strongest backs and Owen Farrell was our captain at that stage. And so he was constantly under pressure because he's not getting any good ball and he's got the opposition bearing down. And we ended up having a fisticuffs at training and he reacted badly to it. But that's the sort of experience he needs to have. Now you can learn from that, like this is what it's going to be like. So how can we deal with this better in the future?

45:27Dr. Michael Gervais:Go back to your implicit and explicit. Will you ask questions or will you direct in those moments when the pressure gets to somebody in training and they are a smaller version of themselves. They collapsed in on lower performing behaviors. Will you be more implicit or explicit in those things? Well, generally, I think you want to be implicit there. You do. Get them to learn. How did you feel there? What was your communication like with the rest of the players? What could you have done differently? Yeah, one of my favorite is like, okay, help me understand what was going on for you yeah yeah and then they'll say something i go right what led to that yeah and they'll say something i said right what what do you think led to that and before you know it it's like you know it's like he said something 14 weeks ago beginning of the season that said and it's like i never let it go and then it showed up and how dare you know it's like oh so you've been carrying stuff you know or oh you didn't sleep for the last three weeks because you got a newborn or whatever it might be yeah okay because what you're saying there there's always like if you're driving a jeep right and imagine this there's always grenades in the back of the jeep right and they're ready to go you know and and your job as a sports psych or a head coach or any coach is to try to detonate those grenades before you get to the the big show i've never heard the analogy that's great that's great would you say earlier you pinched it from somebody else.

46:55Dr. Michael Gervais:I have pinched him. This is a good one to pinch. Yeah, for sure. We're all intellectual thieves. Yeah, right. Okay, good. All right. So are you more interested in the person or are you more interested in the player? I think it'd be both. It is both. Yeah. Because so the player is important for that tournament or that game. But one of the greatest joys of coaching is when you've got players who've had difficult careers come back to you and talk to you about what happened. Like, you know, there's one, I was talking to someone the other day, there was this Samoan boy we had with the Brumbies, you know, he's always in trouble.

47:37Like, he got his first contract right,$20 ,000, he'd spend it in one week. Like, he was just one guy trained hard and he was always in trouble. I remember we put him on the diet because he was overweight. After dinner, I saw him pick up six bananas and four yogurts and take it back to his room. And I said, what are you doing, mate? He said, I've been told to control my weight, so I'm trying to eat healthy bananas. So he was one of those guys. And so he keeps contacting me all the time. We keep chatting. I've gone to where he was living, helped him set up a club. So it's one of those things that make you feel really good about coaching.

48:17that you've had.

48:17Dr. Michael Gervais:It's always the relationship, isn't it? It's fantastic, mate. So, okay. So you're trying to strike the balance between the person and the player. Do you remember a moment in your life when a coach had a dramatic influence on the way you felt about yourself? Yeah. When I first cracked the top level in rugby, I was on the bus and I was this little 75K guy, you know. Is that like 140, 150 pounds? No, 160 pounds. Not heavy, not heavy. It was light for my position and I just made it and I sat on the bus and the head coach came he sat next to me I remember he put his hand on my he said what do you think today mate I thought why are you asking me but then it made me feel like really important that I was important for the team that I knew something yeah and I love that coach ever since you know I'd do anything for that coach because he made me feel like that he made you feel like what important I heard it in your voice just now Did you feel it?

49:14Dr. Michael Gervais:Yeah. What is that emotion? Guys down in the air. Wait, wait, wait. What just happened for you? You want to cry. No. Yeah, you do. But yeah, no, it's just that really good feeling. Hold on. This is amazing, Eddie. You're a tough coach. And you've turned around so many organizations. and part of the origin story is that you want to feel important, like you matter, and you want the same for your people. I want the same for the players. I want them to have that feeling that they're really important and they can do things they think they can't do. Like, you know, we're always trying to encourage players to be the best version of themselves, but a lot of time they don't really know what the best version of themselves is, and there's, you know, There's all these, whether it be a mental obstacle, a physical obstacle, a social obstacle, and as a coach you're trying to unleash that.

50:20And just one conversation like that, you know, it's crazy, isn't it? That was 30 years ago and I still feel. All of it. Yeah. So it's the power of good coaching.

50:31Dr. Michael Gervais:Thank you for bringing that forward. I hope that your community that listens really understands you in a different way and I hope that everybody listening thinks about how they're making that impact in the lives of others as well. How do you work with your emotions? I saw you just struggle with it. You let it come to the surface and then wanted to do, you know, push it down or move it to the side. Well, I think, yeah, the generation we came through in Australia, we were all taught to be tough, you know, don't be vulnerable, don't show any emotion. And generally I'm like that. I think that's old.

51:06Yeah, no, no, it is, but it's a hard habit to break. It is a hard habit. but how do you want to be? No, no, no, I'm happy how I am. I think we all want to have emotional control because it's important to have stability, particularly when you're a leader. Like you don't want to be too down and you don't want to be too up. You know, when you're winning, you shouldn't be too happy. When you lose, you shouldn't be too sad. So emotional control is important, I think. But, you know, all the stuff you read now, and I think it is true that the ability at the right time to show vulnerability is very important.

51:42And I'm probably not that good at that. You just exercise it a little bit. Yeah, it might be one off. Might be one off.

51:51Dr. Michael Gervais:Yeah, it's so right. Like, you know that idea, victory and defeat, those two imposters are the same. That idea, not be too high, not be too low. What ends up happening, I think, is that many are unskilled with working with emotions. So what is accepted is frustration intolerance anger if you will yeah and so that's what comes out and that scares people right no one wants and that embarrasses people and it keeps people on their toes now there's a time and place to be pissed right on a bad behavior meaning unacceptable behavior needs to have some sort of consequence in my mind yeah okay so all that being said is when we are more like what bruce lee talked about like mind like water we can just kind of roll through things and we are more like buddha or the dalai lama talked about like being unbothered you know and childlike in their mind a beginner's mind there's so much freedom but to do that you have to really work with emotions yeah yeah how good are you let's just do one to ten how good are you dealing with anger when you feel it probably now i i give myself probably a seven out of ten pretty good yeah yeah yeah Yeah, before when I was young, terrible.

53:04Two out of ten, three. One, one, one. One, okay. Probably likely to get a one sometimes.

53:08Dr. Michael Gervais:How good are you at working with fear, like things that you're really afraid of? Yeah, not bad. Probably six or seven again. Six or seven? And sadness? Sadness, yeah, no, probably six or seven. And joy? Joy is, I think, one of the most difficult ones. Oh, that's surprising for me for you. Tell me more. Well, I think joy or enjoyment comes from the game. For most players, I think, and again, I think it's changed a little bit that players like to get, and I'm going to contradict myself here, which is part of coaching. I think a lot of the ability to create a joyful environment now is important and I don't think it was as important before, but I think now, particularly for the younger generations they've got to feel that joy and the balance you know if you look at that high performance triangle where you've got high performance there enjoyment or joy there and and hard work and learning there the ability to get that balance right I think is really important these more so than before where you know previously maybe you could just have a hard working everyone just front up grind away but now I think that balance is really, really right.

54:26And I think in a lot of ways, the American coaches have led the way in that area. You know, you've worked with Pete Carroll. I think his ability to balance that, Steve Kerr at Golden State Warriors, from what I've heard about him and seen a little bit of his stuff. So I think that's important. And that's probably the area I'm probably not as naturally as good in, you know, in understanding how do we get joy? Yeah.

54:49Dr. Michael Gervais:It's interesting that you're saying joy comes from the game. I actually, I'd like to challenge that idea a little bit that joy comes from yourself and the way you interpret and what you bring into an experience like joy in my mind is a frameable experience yeah you know and it takes discipline but I'm curious because you gave yourself the lowest score on joy I had this moment where it still sticks with me today it was a technology it was I can't talk about it because it's, call it secret. I don't like that word, but it's, I can't talk about this technology. It triggered joy in a way that surprised me.

55:28And it was a flood of joy that was taking place.

55:33Dr. Michael Gervais:And I was overwhelmed by it. And I pulled myself out of it. And so I knew from that moment, like, oh, I've got to increase my sphere of being able to deal with like this love, joy, something. Right. And like, why would I be afraid to go on the other edge of this thing? And so I wish I could share the technology, but I think the most important part is that it led me to an insight that like, oh, I'm not as good as Joy as I thought. So for the last four years, my team will love this. Every year, we don't set out to do resolutions. We know they fall apart, right? But every year we recommit to something that's important to us.

56:12Dr. Michael Gervais:and at finding mastery this is one of our practices i do it with a bunch of teams is like what's this year about yeah and i'll ask athletes and coaches like okay you can do the year can be january 1st it could be the start of the season yeah what's the promise like what's the promise you're making to yourself what are you committing to what's the fundamental commitment that idea and for three to four years in a row i can't remember it was play like i know i need more play because it's intense i'm serious i'm only saying so my muse was like a panda bear okay Like no predators, they're just rolling around.

56:43Dr. Michael Gervais:They're having a good time. So if you were to kind of recommit right now or declare, I should say, what is this next year or what is this next phase of your life about? If you were a panda bear, I'd be a beaver. A beaver? What do you mean? What is a beaver doing? I love this. I love how they're industrious. Like they can just build something out of nothing. They've got the, they can swim in the river. they look they look free but then at the same time they can work hard and build something oh and they're really community minded too right they they work well together together yeah oh so beaver okay that's my resolution that's that's your documentary eddie the beaver okay good unbelievable finding mastery is brought to you by our flagship mindset training course finding your best anytime you feel the pull to reset to zoom out to refocus and ask am i moving toward the person I want to become.

57:37Dr. Michael Gervais:It helps to remember this. Lasting change comes from training, not resolutions, not short-term sprints, but deliberate practice of the skills that shape how we show up in work, in relationships, and in the moments of great intensity as well. That's what finding your best is all about. It's a science-backed framework for training your mind. And it's the same set of tools that we've taught to Olympic athletes, top executives, elite military teams, and artists at the peak of their craft. In this course, you'll learn the foundational psychological skills to be your very best full stop. And the best part is you can start anytime.

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58:46Dr. Michael Gervais:Finding Mastery is brought to you by Fatty 15. Okay, let's talk about longevity. Longevity is much more than simply adding years. It's about maintaining health and a zest and a vitality and enhanced performance as you age. And that's why I'm excited about Fatty 15. It's an award-winning supplement. It's powered by C15, which is the first essential fatty acid discovered in over 90 years. Okay, so C15, it's a geroprotector. What that means is it helps to slow biological aging by strengthening your cells, basically protecting them from damage. You can think of it like kind of like a 401k for your health, where you're investing in cellular quote-unquote resilience.

59:26Dr. Michael Gervais:And I dug into the research on the relationship between C15 and heart health. I love what I saw. Fatty15 is on a mission to optimize your C15 levels to help you live healthier, longer. Get 15 % off your 90-day subscription starter kit by heading to fatty15.com slash findingmastery and use the code findingmastery at checkout. That's fatty, F-A-T-T-Y, 15.com slash findingmastery. Start investing in your long-term health today. okay so one thank you for all of the insight thank you for bringing all of yourself into it what we haven't gotten to though is like like practices what do you do to switch on a culture to activate the identity that you want to do do you have rituals that are maybe i don't know fun to celebrate or point to that are important i've done all sorts of things and again it varies on the team.

1:00:21I remember, you know, the Japan team, we used to have this really hard training regime. So we trained three times a day, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, seven, ten, three. But then on a Wednesday night, we'd go and have a Korean barbecue, yakuniku, for two hours and everyone would relax, enjoy themselves and the players would look forward to it. So that really worked with that group. So for each group, I think there's things that work, that help reinforce the identity, that help reinforce the behaviours that you want. One of the interesting things, post the game, like if you think about 20 years ago, post the game, the old thing was don't touch the players for 48 hours.

1:01:06Let them chill, let them get themselves right, right, which is the rugby thing. And now we'll come back to a room like this, we'll have tables set out and we'll ask the players for 15 minutes in in their positional group to have a quick chat they might have a beer they might have a soft drink to have a chat about the game and reconnect on the game and have a think about what we need to do and that's been a something that's really i think worked well for this group of players and it's athlete learned we try to encourage the players to lead as much as possible so for my group i might sit down and say right the for instance the high ball didn't work well today boys can you guys have a think about what we need to do to improve it for next week or it might be they lead it so combination of it that's different

1:01:53Dr. Michael Gervais:when i went and spent some time with like a couple of the rugby clubs in europe a couple things that are different rugby versus american sport is in rugby they play for the shirt yeah for the tradition right and so culture is needs to capture that heritage if you will and the other thing is it's way more athlete-led than in the US. It's very much coach-led. And we adopted some of that up at the Seahawks where there was like, how do we bring the voice in of the athlete in a way that drives their engagement in a deeper level? So is that why you do it? Yeah, 100%. I want the players to own the game.

1:02:30And you've also got to realize in rugby, we're not allowed, coaches aren't allowed on the field. So once the whistle goes, the players are in charge of the game. So they've got to adapt to the game. They've got to make decisions. So we want to encourage that as much as we can. So we try to drive that player engagement. And I think, you know, the way you run meetings now are completely different than before. And we're trying to get much better in engaging the players. You know, if you just look at how school teaching's changed over the last period of time, you know, before it was a teacher at the front lecturing, telling them what to do.

1:03:06Now teachers want to engage. They want to use multimedia. They want the kids to work out problems in groups. So I think coaching's moving in that direction, and particularly in rugby where, as I said, players have to solve the decisions by themselves, problems by themselves. If we knew what you knew, how would we lead better? I always find, like I always come back to it. I think if you look at how you teach or how you lead, there's being explicit and being implicit. And then within that, you've got all your players, right? And somewhere on that line, there's a sweet spot for each of the players and there's a sweet spot for the group.

1:03:48And as a coach, you're always trying to find that. Where is it?

1:03:54Dr. Michael Gervais:That's very cool. Yeah. What have you had to unlearn over your decades of working with multiple cultures? And, I mean, Australia, Japan, England, and then the multi-cultures of players that are on your team. What have you had to unlearn over the last 30 years of coaching? I think the one thing you've always got to stop yourself doing is assuming. Assuming, yeah, you see a player and you assume something, you've been told about this player, you assume something, you've got a staff member. You should never assume in coaching. You know, you should always confirm. And you can only confirm by getting to know that person.

1:04:34That's awesome.

1:04:35Dr. Michael Gervais:Rassi is a coach that, you know, who's making some noise and having a way. And what do you respect about his coaching approach? And what do you fundamentally differ, if anything? His is an amazing story, you know, because he, Japan beat South Africa in the 2015 World Cup. That was a shocker. Yeah. Right? Was it a shocker to you? Yes. It was. Yeah, it was a shocker. South Africa, for folks that don't follow rugby, is like a dominant, always have been. They are an incredible nation of sport. Yeah. And a small little nation as well. And so when Japan, also small in size, was rivaling this big, you know, South African reputation, It was a moment now.

1:05:17But post that, the interesting thing was South Africa said, right, we can't play rugby like we used to, which is physical, a lot of kicking, not glamorous sort of rugby, hard, tough rugby. So they brought in a new cage, right? And if you can imagine, he wants them to play like Patrick Mahomes, right? The ball's fizzing around everywhere, right? The ball's moving. But it doesn't suit them. So they win 40 % of the tests for two years. So Russi comes in and we talk about identity. He goes straight back to South African identity, like kick, chase hard, be tough, be brutal, and they win the next two World Cups, right?

1:06:02Next two World Cups they win by going back to their identity. And the other smart thing, and I don't know 100%, but I've heard enough, One of the things he does that a lot of teams have gone away from, on the first training day, Monday, if you don't train on that day, you're not eligible for selection, right? And it doesn't matter who you are, whether you're the best player in the world and they train reasonably hard. Like it's not a walkthrough, it's not training shoes on, they train reasonably hard. So you've got to be ready on the Monday, which again, you know, if you just think about it, you're setting the tone for the week.

1:06:38be ready on monday be ready to go be ready to train so i think those two things he's done absolutely brilliantly so there's a standard there yeah yeah right and so he identity yeah so he knew

1:06:51Dr. Michael Gervais:the ethos of that region of the world and what what south african and you could do this for your company as well like what do we stand for and then you back in behaviors and standards and ways of talking, you know, that would back that thing up and make it honest. Yeah. But if you did that with Australia, you'd get absolutely nowhere. Like you'd have the players on strike. Yeah, because Australians want to have a say in how they play, right? English should follow it for a while and then they'd revolt. Yeah, and it's different for – particularly in international sport, There's a social norm that you've got to take into consideration of how people behave.

1:07:34I think what Russ has done is understood South Africa brilliantly. He's a highly detailed guy. They like a lot of detail. And generally speaking, South African players like to be told. They like to be told what to do. Look at that. Where do you disagree with his approach? Nothing. You like it? Yeah. And I think he's, the only probably thing I don't like is that I think he's used social media to put a lot of pressure on referees, which I don't think is probably the right thing to do.

1:08:05Dr. Michael Gervais:When you're coaching Japan, which you still are right now, but when you went up against South Africa, this might be one of the greatest upsets in rugby, in world sport. How did you mentally prepare them? So two years before the World Cup, we saw the draw came out and we had South Africa first, right? And traditionally Japan had always played their B team against the top team and saved themselves for the other World Cup games, right? So I immediately said to them, we're going to pick our best team and then I put up their beat the box and these are the things we've got to practice. There was three things we've got to practice.

1:08:45Then we came up with a modified game of how we're going to play against Springboks. And every training session we do that. Right. This is how we're going to beat them. So you had this vision. Yeah. For three years. You backed into it. And just practiced it, talked about it. This is how we're going to beat them. This is how we're going to do it. You know, stop training. This is going to be the time where it's going to happen. because there's some time in the game where their power is going to take over and we've just got to hang in there. Because they're so powerful. Yeah, we've got to hang in for a period of time.

1:09:20And if we can hang in there for a period of time, they start to get uncomfortable. So we just dress rehearsed it, dress rehearsed it. And because of that, the players believed we got them super fit because we said we were going to be the fittest side in the world. So we got them super fit, dressed rehearsed, spoke about it, messaged it and had a bit of luck.

1:09:41Dr. Michael Gervais:What does competitive unity mean to you when you hear that term, competitive unity? That everyone's working towards the same goal. And is the goal in that framing, is it to be one's very best or is it to be better than the others? The only thing you control is be the best version of yourself. And that's the great, I remember watching recently, There was something on Netflix on the American gold medal team in basketball, the recent one, and they had a great shot of the Croatians and the Croatians had got beaten by America and they were having their post day and they were sitting around and they were so proud of what they'd done.

1:10:25And one of the players who plays NBA, I can't remember his name, was saying, look, we played really well but we're just not good enough to beat them and there's no embarrassment to that and that's all you can do and and i want every team that i coach to sit down at the end of it and say well we did our best like did we win well hopefully you always want to win but if you didn't win you you just gave your best and you feel that we did our best you know and that and that's a powerful feeling that's where the relentless

1:10:59Dr. Michael Gervais:uncommon standards for weeks and years leading up to this moment, whatever this moment is, meaning this conversation even, if you were uninformed for the three decades that you've been coaching and haven't thought about much, and then here we are talking about deep, honest conversations, you would fall apart, right? And that's for all of us, whether it's in a living room and a loving conversation, or it's in a boardroom with an intense conversation, it's the relentless uncommon standards to practice being your very best over time with tension so that at some point you you can be in flow with you know how it's going and so that's what i hear you saying is like we said this is the mission beat the box and that comes from spring box right the the name of the club and then it wasn't just about being better than them it was about we're going to be our very best in these three ways and we're going to practice it and then you would call it out reward it praise it you know and correct it when it wasn't yeah yeah man i think i understand i would like to be coached by you good yeah but i reckon that's one of the questions you any coach should ask yourself or a leader should ask themselves would you like to be coached by yourself would you like to be led by yourself i think it's a great question and so i think sometimes i scare myself i think i'm i think i'm really hard on myself sometimes But I no longer cut myself.

1:12:24I'm no longer mean to myself.

1:12:27Dr. Michael Gervais:I wasn't really always that mean, but there was an exacting standard. I'm still looking for that standard, but I like my friend within myself. Do you like how you speak to yourself? I think you've always got to take yourself to the edge. If you're not on the edge, you're not really where you can be. The edge for me is like being radically honest. That's the edge. because I can tell stories to myself to make myself feel okay about how something went. But if I'm really honest, it usually is about the preparation leading to that was not quite up to standard. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the most important conversation you'll have, isn't it?

1:13:06Dr. Michael Gervais:Yeah. Yeah. That's a great point. When you think about the countries that have the best emotional control, the ones that are cool, they're just cool, they handle it. They're all about the business and they stay connected when it gets really hot. I think of Irish rugby. Yeah. You do too? Yeah. I think of South African. Yeah. Yeah. Who else do you think of? Do you think of, do you think of Australia? New Zealand? Not recently. Probably New Zealand are falling off a little bit. Historically, I think that's a really interesting point. Yeah, because a lot of sport now, you're being encouraged to celebrate good moments, you know.

1:13:49And I was watching a rugby league in Australia and the team that did really badly, right, and they played their first pre-season game. And every time they're doing something, they've got 13 blokes, they're all giving high fives, and there's all this energy, right, in this trial game. They win easily. They play the first game of the year, they get beaten by 30 points. and after 20 minutes, there's no celebration. You know, there's nothing there.

1:14:14Dr. Michael Gervais:In other words, the circumstances are dictating the behavior and the behavior is not driving the circumstance. So when you get that thing out of whack, I watch for that. What do you do after? What do you do when? And if it's not consistent, I'm like, oh, they don't have a system. They don't have a way of going about it. They're just riding the momentum. Yeah. So getting back to Ireland and South Africa, You know, my perception of them is that they enjoy the game and they do celebrate but they don't go over the top, you know. So imagine we're having a party today and there's four crates of beer coming, which is just about enough for everyone to have one beer.

1:14:54Dr. Michael Gervais:Okay. They don't bring in eight crates of beer, right? You know, so they don't go nuts. And I think that emotional. So when you get disappointed in it because I think the big thing is not when you're doing well, it's the disappointment of the game, how you cope with the disappointment of the game. That thing about getting your mental modelling as close to reality as you can so that when something goes bad, you can stick at it, right, let's get this right. And I think they're really good at that, both of those teams. I know the Irish system for a long time would coach up against that. Yeah. And who else comes to mind that really that we can look to and watch that has a…

1:15:33Dr. Michael Gervais:they're probably the best, those two. They are, yeah. And who are the wild cards that they are like, you know, like I want to pick on Brazil for a moment in so many sports, like moments of brilliance. And then as soon as it starts going sideways, some of the teams, the national teams, you know, they start to turn on each other even. France is a bit like that. France is a little bit like that, yeah. Yeah. Isn't it funny how the cultures and ethos, there's so many ways to get to brilliance. Yeah. Right? Yeah, very cool. What would you give, what guidance would you give to the U S in, you know, growing the accelerated rate of rugby here?

1:16:11Dr. Michael Gervais:That laugh is too much, man. I don't know if we've got enough time here. Yeah. It's such a good game. Why has it not? It suits USA. I think it's a gentleman sport. It's rough. It's rugged. It's tactical. Discipline and joy and high performance come together. There's a bonding about it. You know, like I don't, I don't quite get it. what's USA rugby look like? What does a USA rugby team look like? Identity. Yeah. What is it? Okay. Yeah. If I had an idea, I think you've got to be big, you've got to be physical, and you've got to be fast. Like that's what USA have got. They've got big, physical, fast athletes.

1:16:51Right. So then you've got to add to that some level of smartness to it. So how are you going to play a little bit smart, but really put yourself on. that's how we're going to play. Yeah, this is USA. Oh, I see how you're doing. This is USA.

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1:19:08Dr. Michael Gervais:Again, head to FindingMastery.com slash morning to get your morning mindset routine. And if you were coaching USA, how would you establish the values or the, yeah, would you, would you start with values? I'd start with the rugby first and then, and then go down from there. You would start with the tactics? Yeah. Like this is how we're going to go. Because I reckon, you know, in establishing the culture of a team, there's, there's two ways you can do it. You can, you can start with the values. these are the values we want to have and then build your team up from that. Or you can go, this is the game we want to play and from that, these are the values that are going to be important.

1:19:51Because, you know, like you do a lot in business. You go to a business and there's all integrity, respect, you know, all those things are up there, you know, and they're just words, aren't they, in reality. You've got to have a clear model of what behaviours are important and sometimes those can come from the game, right? So, you know, we play a hard-working game and if you're one player, you might only touch the ball for two seconds. So the other 79 minutes, 58 seconds, you're running around supporting. Like, and that's a selfless game. So there's some values that are non-negotiable and then you've got to work out, right, what do we want to still see in our game?

1:20:34Yeah, if I use an example, when I first coached the Brumbies in Australia, we were a team that was basically led by the players. So we'd get together on a Monday night, six senior players for two hours, we'd thrash out the game plan. Never done it with any other team. But they loved doing it and it was their key behaviour that they wanted to be smarter than everyone else and they wanted the players to lead it.

1:20:59Dr. Michael Gervais:Very cool. And when you work out the behaviours, do you teach, explicitly teach the behaviors? Or do you say, right, this is how coaches, we're going to model it. How do you get into the actual behavioral change? I think coaches modeling it, making sure you're rewarding it, making sure you're praising it, and making sure you're correcting it. And as much as you can show it at team meetings, this is what we want to see, this is what we don't want to see. After a blowout where you really underperformed and you go to film or tape, do you point out the mistakes or do you point out the successes of what we could become?

1:21:41Again, today, mate, I reckon you just got to find the good things. Yeah.

1:21:45Dr. Michael Gervais:Find as many good things as you can. What is your ratio there? Almost 80-20. 80-20. Generally 80-20. 80 % good stuff, 20 % is what we've got to get better at. When I bring that idea into non-sport environments, they're like, wait, you don't, because the old image of like Monday morning, kind of after a Sunday game, Monday morning, you're going to get blasted by the coach. If you, that's old, it doesn't work. And you still hear the commentators talk like that. Yeah, on like media. Yeah, it's old. It does not work that way. I need to flood my imagination with what is good, what I'm working toward, what I could become more.

1:22:26Dr. Michael Gervais:Like I need to flood myself with that because there's so much noise. Don't show them. I know where I screwed up. Believe me. But like reinforce how the things, I do need some insight about, look, I've told you a thousand times, don't take a full step. It's a half step. That's right. A half step. Yeah. Okay. But generally, you're saying we want more of this and it might be at the end or at the start, we need a little bit less of this voice. A little bit less of this. Yeah. But let's have more of this. But do you say it with a smile like you just did? I think that's one of the most important things now, to be optimistic and positive.

1:23:06I think, again, if I think back to when I first started coaching. Wait, Eddie Jones is talking about optimism.

1:23:12Dr. Michael Gervais:Is that right? You have to be. You have to be. Yeah. I think it's really important now. Have you always been fundamentally optimistic? Optimistic, but could be a bit dour and tough. Yeah. You know, and had that tough persona. Frustrated. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think now one of the things you don't want to show is frustration, right? Because? Because I don't think the younger generation can cope with it. If I think about my father, right, he fought in three wars, right? He's a soldier, right? So he had a tough life. I haven't been to any war. I've never had to look at anything. You're still flip-flops.

1:23:51Right. Yeah, right. Never had to, right? I know, right. And my daughter has had an even easier life. So that's the way life's going. So this is not something that we should think is unexpected. You know, it's expected that people are going to tolerate less tough things as we go on, you know. But the way we've still got to teach them to play tough, you know. How do you do that? Well, that's got to be training, standards of training. Standards and training.

1:24:21Dr. Michael Gervais:Yeah, yeah. So I've got a leader that I work with where she's amazing, by the way. She's smart. she's articulate she understands excellence she's great and her team will say mike it's a little unreasonable though i go what do you mean well if we show her a powerpoint deck that we're you know we're going to present on whatever and there's a period out of place like it's a thing and if there's three lines when it should be two lines because all the other things had two lines and we we couldn't quite figure out how to say it. So we just made it look asymmetrical. It's a thing. And like, we all get berated and, you know, it's like, it's overwhelming.

1:25:01Dr. Michael Gervais:So then my question back was like, okay, what are you working for here? You know, and let them tell me what the, well, we want to be great. Well, there's some standards here. So are you attention to detail? Is that what standards means? It's a really good question. I remember I had this PA. And PA means? Personal assistant. Okay. And she was fantastic. Best person in the world. Do anything. But, you know, say she had to write up food, nutrition, ingredients, there'd be five spelling errors. And I remember one day I drilled her on it. And I reckon by doing that, I took away a bit of her love of the job.

1:25:43So I think it's always balancing. You need to have standards, right? So I'm probably going around this in a funny way, but you need to have standards, but you've got to understand for your staff or for your players, is that going to make a difference to what they do? Does that make sense? Say those documents, like I hate seeing spelling errors and I hate seeing sloppiness in documents. But drilling down into that, is that going to help you win? Like that's the thing you've always got to be thinking about, not just having it for the sake of having it. Is it important to help you win?

1:26:22Dr. Michael Gervais:How do you finish this thought? If you don't get this right, you'll never understand what you're capable of. How do you own that? Well, I think getting it right for each person is different. So you've got to know what's right for them to make them want to, You know, run faster, play harder, give more love to the organisation. I think you've got to understand what's right for them. You know, if I go back to that PA, I still think about it all the time and I regret it so much that I took her love of the job away just because she was untidy in one area. And the value she'd give to the organisation was far greater than those errors.

1:27:03And that was probably the best lesson I've had. So I always try to weigh that up when I'm thinking about those things now. And particularly in Japan, you know, we've got a multilingual situation. So some of the English spelling we get, you know, it's off the charts. So I have to just put my head down. No, no. Let's keep going.

1:27:23Dr. Michael Gervais:Okay. A couple of quick hits. It all comes down to? I think you've got to inspire people. Inspiration. If you could name a boat, what would you put on the name of the boat? Ensemble. Relationships are? Most important. Success is? Hard work. The uncomfortable truth that most people would not admit about winning is? That the grind sometimes becomes the grind. Eddie Jones, what a gift. Thank you so much for how you've shown up today. and the way that you've put your words together is evidence of years of understanding of what it takes. And it's been a real joy to get to know you in this way. So thank you so much.

1:28:14Dr. Michael Gervais:No, thanks to you. It made me think a lot today. That was quite a difficult podcast and I see why you've been so popular. So I hope this becomes the best podcast you've ever done. Let's compete. Let's compete. Okay. Appreciate you, Eddie. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Next time on Finding Mastery, we're joined by Dr. Stacey Sims, exercise physiologist, nutrition scientist, bestselling author, and one of the leading voices in women's health and performance. For decades, much of what women have been told about nutrition, training, recovery, and aging was built from research conducted primarily on men.

1:28:50Dr. Michael Gervais:Stacey challenges that foundation with a simple but powerful idea. Women are not small men. In this conversation, we explore why so many women feel like their bodies suddenly change the rules, what's actually happening during perimenopause and menopause, and how to work with your physiology instead of fighting against it. We also discuss what partners, coaches, and families often misunderstand about these transitions. So join us Wednesday, July 15th at 9am Pacific, only on Finding Mastery. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you.

1:29:28Dr. Michael Gervais:We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. punch over to finding mastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors. And we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show.

1:30:06Dr. Michael Gervais:If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals at finding mastery.com slash sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend, and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only.

1:30:42Dr. Michael Gervais:If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your health care providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.