The Psychology Of Speaking Under Pressure | Matt Abrahams

21:53Dr. Michael Gervais:How do you prepare to see something as an opportunity? What do you ask people to do prior to a moment? So when it comes to the opportunistic approach, one, I do a rationalization with them. help them understand that in most circumstances, people are not out to get you. They're actually there to learn something from you. So helping people reframe the situation as one that is positive rather than negative. Second, I ask people to recall and remember situations that are similar, that went well, and how does that benefit them? And to forecast if this is like that, what could the potential positive outcome be?

22:28So it's really helping people to reflect on past experiences to really help them see the situation, rationalize it a little differently. And in so doing, they begin to feel much more comfortable.

22:39Dr. Michael Gervais:When you ask people to go back in time and talk about what went well, are you more interested in them rewriting a narrative about what could be? Or are you more interested in them recalling what was great as a reminder that they can be great in the future? Actually, I think it's both. And I really like the question. It's insightful because I want them to remember what was, think about what could be, and then have them come up with, along with me, the steps that help them to get to the potential future state that they like. It is, for me, that thought process that, oh, the connecting the dots. If I do this, that's possible.

23:18That's very empowering. At least I've seen that in my teaching and coaching. Okay.

23:21Dr. Michael Gervais:So let's go a little further. So remembering times in the past that were successful, sorting out what led to that, creating imagination of what could be in the future. Like that's - A visualization. Yeah. Like performance imagery is kind of table stakes for athletes. And so, however, all that being said is we're not doing it outside of athletics the way that athletes do it. They rely on that skill. Right. Yeah. A lot of folks haven't had that skill. Or what's interesting to me, and I wonder if you see this in your work, I will ask people, have you ever done any kind of performance? Maybe you've been an act, you've acted, you've done some singing, dancing, or you've done a sport.

23:59And they'll say, yes. And they'll say, what were the skills you used to help you get through this? And they'll share. And I'll say, have you ever thought of applying those to your speaking? And it's like an epiphany, like, no, I haven't. It's really interesting to me how people compartmentalize their skill sets. And when they start looking across, you know, I work with many athletes who have to get up and give presentations or run meetings. And the preparation that they did for their sport serves well in their preparations for their communication.

24:26Dr. Michael Gervais:Okay. So I'm a super visual person. If you had an equalizer, let's do round knobs. Okay. So imagine you've got a little dashboard, equalizer dashboard, and you've got a bunch of round knobs. What are the knobs that indicate a specific skill that you would like people to be able to work with? So I think the knobs, there's several, but the first has to do with confidence, confidence in yourself and confidence in the topic that you're communicating. So the first knob we have to play with and adjust is confidence. And if we're looking at an equalizer board, there's some sliders that we're working on on that for sure.

25:03The next thing is depth of knowledge with the topic that you're speaking. You have to have an appreciation of that. Finally, in that, the three knobs I would want people to turn is that you have to have the ability to structure the information in a way that is accessible to the audience. A lot of us, when we communicate, especially when we get nervous, especially when the lights are bright, we just list and itemize information. And we make it very difficult for somebody to follow along what we're saying. We take our audiences on a journey of our own discovery of what we're saying while we're saying it.

25:35And that can be very difficult. So if I'm sitting there futzing with the knobs, I'm really starting with confidence. And then I'm really trying to help make sure that people know their material and then use structure.

25:47Dr. Michael Gervais:Okay. So let's go in reverse order on the structure. Can you walk through the structure that you find valuable for people when they are telling a story or when they are spontaneously on the spot that you found useful for you? So you're right. There are myriad structures. A structure is nothing more than a logical connection of ideas, a beginning, a middle, and an end. And there are many different types, and certain types serve best in certain circumstances. Before I would ever deploy a structure, so I'm going to take us one step back, I have to be very clear in the goal that I'm trying to achieve.

26:19When you have a fuzzy goal, your communication is fuzzy. It meanders. To me, a goal has three parts, information, emotion, and action. What do you want people to know? How do you want them to feel? And what do you want them to do? Once you have a clear goal, then the structure helps you achieve it. So you asked about a storytelling structure. I have one that I love. It is very simple. Three questions. What? So what? Now what? The what is the information you're sharing. The so what is why is it important. The now what is what comes next. If I have a clear goal, I can then apply that structure in service of that goal, in service of my audience.

26:56And it helps. It's a roadmap. It's hard to get lost if you have a map. and structure provides that mess. Super simple.

27:03Dr. Michael Gervais:You know, this has been around a long time, right? Like what, so what, now what? Yeah. And it is one way that people write briefs. Absolutely. What is the thing? Okay, why does that matter? And you know, what are we going to do with this? Absolutely. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. Travel a lot at Finding Mastery. And sometimes travel makes it tricky to eat well. Best intentions, and then you're at the airport. And then suddenly the only options around you are the ones that you'd rarely choose at home. Something I come back to often is that discipline isn't really about willpower in the moment.

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29:47Dr. Michael Gervais:you had also invited another structure that i think we could almost kind of borrow which is like setting up the problem yeah helping people see themselves maybe if they're aligned with that problem and then working through a solution or something like that on the it's very simple it's problem solution benefit yeah there it is if if you've ever seen a television advertisement you've seen this play out there's some issue or challenge in the world the product or service helps remedy that and then you benefit in some way. So the foundational structure is problem, solution, benefit. There are lots of ways of tweaking that based on what you know about your audience, based on what your goal is.

30:23Dr. Michael Gervais:You know, when I read that, I was like, yep, that seems exactly what's happening in the world of marketing and whatever. And it's problematic for me. Okay. So when you address a problem, it's easy to see yourself in the vision that you've just created. It's easy for someone to see themselves in that vision that you just created. If you're a good storyteller you create a problem it's like freshmen in college taking a psychology course and they go i think i have that yeah oh i think i remember those days disorder too right wait i probably i've got them all because you can see yourself inside of the narrative that somebody is is painting so when marketers sales folks are creating the problem you're actually inviting part of somebody's psychology to see themselves as part of that problem or having that problem too that's the whole design of it right and i was talking to one of the senior leaders at a company i'll keep nameless fortune 250 company and he says yeah we don't do it that way we only talk about what could be amazing and invite people to see that and to imagine themselves being part of that don't you want to do that with us and from that point it was like i don't know 12 12 15 years ago i said that's how i'm going to do almost my whole life yeah whether it's you know i'm selling an idea if you will a product or where i want to go on vacation like it's always above the line in that aspiration so with that with that kind of lenses on what i'm suggesting how would you design or structure for impromptu conversations.

32:01So there's actually a variant of problem-solution benefit where you flip the problem to be an opportunity, and that's exactly what you're talking about. So I paint an opportunity for you, and when I pair that with what I call time-traveling language, the ability to take you into the future by saying things like, what if you could, picture this, imagine, I then take that very structure, which works very well, and leverage it, turbocharge it to have people see what's possible. So it becomes opportunity solution benefit. So if I were trying to get you to follow me, to suggest you take on a different attitude or belief, I might paint the picture of the potential future.

32:40Wouldn't it be great if we could do this? Here's the opportunity and way in which we can, and here's the benefit for you if you do. So again, it comes down to what you know about your audience and what your goal is to decide which of those framings work best for you.

32:52Dr. Michael Gervais:If you're with a, God love you, if you're an attorney, but if you're a bunch of attorneys, you should probably figure out what the problem is that you're trying to solve, as opposed to just the opportunity. Well, absolutely. It depends on the audience. So I tell people, if you're dealing with somebody who's very technical, scientific, deeply financial, they like solving problems. When they were in school, they did problem sets. They didn't do opportunity sets. So frame it in a way that makes sense for the audience you're speaking to. That's the adaptability that you need to have, the agility to be effective in communication.

33:23Dr. Michael Gervais:So we're working backwards from having a structure and practice that structure. So when you get called on randomly, you've got something to fall back on. Okay, good. The second is depth of knowledge. You just got to do your homework. You have to do your homework and you have to think about the topics. One of the things that is really concerning to me in a world of AI where everybody can be polished, if you don't have the depth of knowledge and the deep critical thinking that's involved, you can get yourself in trouble. I see this in the students that I teach. They'll do a lot of work with AI to memorize answers for job interviews.

34:01And they answer the first question really well, but the follow-up question, they fall apart because they don't have that depth of knowledge. So preparation to me is not just knowing the material. It's embodying it. It's thinking it through. It's really understanding it. So to me, that's a critical step.

34:18Dr. Michael Gervais:Okay, synthesizing information is a real skill right now. And can you talk about, do you have any insights on how to help people synthesize information so that when they go to speak in a spontaneous moment, they've got something to say more than just kind of one layer deep? I have been fascinated by this question for a long time. And one of the most insightful interviews I did is I talked to a graphic artist. These are real-time artists who take notes. You've seen them. they draw the notes. They're awesome. Think about what they're having to do in that moment. They're having to take in the information.

34:51They have to synthesize it. They have to represent it in a way that captures not just what was said, but how emotionally. There's a lot going on there. That synthesis is critical. And in my discussion with these folks, one of the things that is absolutely critical is pattern recognition. They are looking for patterns in the moment, but across everything that's being said. How do they get to that point? They train. So when they get ready or as they're preparing for one of these meetings, they're reading previous meeting notes. They're talking to people. They're trying to think about what ideas might lead to other ideas.

35:24And it is in that pattern recognition that they begin to synthesize. So I said, take me one level deeper. And they said, they're constantly asking themselves this question. What's the bottom line? What's the bottom line? So they're listening for the bottom line. They're looking for those patterns. And because they've trained themselves to be open to certain patterns, to know that certain things cascade one step after the other, it really helps. And we can do the same thing in our communication. Even if I know I'm stepping into a room where I have to make small talk or people are going to ask me questions, I can think about what are some of the topics that might come up?

35:58What topic might lead to another topic? In this pre-work, we prepare ourselves, much like an athlete does a lot of drills for different situations. What happens in the moment is unique, but the training can prepare you to respond. So it's about synthesis. The synthesis comes down to pattern recognition and looking for the bottom line.

36:18Dr. Michael Gervais:What is the difference for you between preparing and training? To me, preparing is a mental activity. I'm thinking about the different connections, the different ideas. Training is actually doing it. And here's where AI, I think, can be a really valuable tool. Let's say I'm giving an important pitch. I can go to my favorite LLM and say, giving a pitch on this topic to these type of people, generate questions for me. It will spit out questions and you can practice answering them. Much like a person who boxes, has a boxing partner, they're throwing punches, you're responding. It's a great way to train.

36:51So training to me is the physical act of doing it, speaking it. I don't know about you, in my mind, I'm amazingly eloquent. When I open up my mouth, I'm not always as lucky. So I have to practice that. But at the same time, mentally, I'm thinking about and preparing in advance.

37:04Dr. Michael Gervais:When we're in this conversation right now, are you using or how much of you is using get to the bottom line or what is the bottom line? Absolutely. Every question you ask, I'm thinking to myself, the bottom line of this question is this. And I've over the years learned I don't have to get it right. I just have to commit. So when you say something like the last question was about synthesis, I said, the bottom line is synthesis. Immediately I said, synthesis for me equals pattern recognition. And then I start building my message from that. There's probably a fine line between what's the bottom line and what are the first principles for me to work from.

37:40Dr. Michael Gervais:And I love first principles thinking and first principles alignment. It's not easy to do. And so to be aligned with first principles, you need to know what your first principles are. Your approach is to say, okay, what is the bottom line that is in this conversation? And that can be the bottom line for me. What do I want to say? What is the bottom line for the other person? And where did the phrase bottom line come from for you? It comes from listening. I do a lot of work helping people listen better. My wife thinks I'm a fraud because she thinks I need a lot of work on it myself. But listening, we mostly listen for the top line.

38:14I just get sort of the initial idea of what you're saying. And then I begin rehearsing, judging, evaluating. I turn very inward and I've lost the connection. So the opposite of the top line to me is the bottom line. And so that's where I came to that idea. And most people can relate to that.

38:29Dr. Michael Gervais:I was in a conversation with the CEO of Alaska Airlines, Ben Minacucci, and we're talking about like characteristics of a great leader. And he says, you have to listen hard. It's a cool way of thinking about it, like listening hard. I heard a talk once and I don't remember who said it, but the quote was, listen until you sweat. And I love that idea because it means you're very present, you're working hard, and you're there for the other person. And that's what it's all about. So when you think about great listening because you teach that skill, you're practicing it yourself, how can you help our viewer, listener, be just a little bit better?

39:05Dr. Michael Gervais:And what can they do to be better? A couple things. I learned from a colleague of mine at Stanford's Business School, Collins Dobbs, this pattern that I've subsequently applied to listening. He uses it for something else. Pace, space, grace. You have to slow things down. You can't listen well and be moving fast physically or mentally. So slow it down, pace. You have to give yourself space, not just physical space, but psychological space to really be receptive to what's being said. It doesn't mean you agree. It just means you're receptive and seeking understanding. And then you have to give yourself grace, permission, to not just listen in the moment to what's being said by the other person, but how you're responding.

39:45And from that, you can then act. And to me, the one skill I really train people to work on to listen better is to paraphrase. If you listen to paraphrase, you don't even have to paraphrase, repeat it back. But if you listen to paraphrase, you actually train yourself to be very present, to work hard, and to strive to really understand what the person is saying. So pace, space, grace, that's the mental preparation. And then the listening to paraphrase is the physical training you can do. For example, what is a listening to paraphrase? So I might say you're curious about what paraphrasing is. So that's me listening for that bottom line.

40:26And then paraphrasing to me is just naming it. And the added skill of paraphrasing is connecting the bottom line to either where I want to take the conversation or where I think you should or would want to take it as well.

40:39Dr. Michael Gervais:As part of the training in psychology, we are deeply instructed to not just pay attention to the narrative, but for all of the other information that is either not coming forward and or is just below the surface. And when you start to attend to those things, you get a fuller picture of what's actually being said or not being said, but the experience of the person. So in the space piece, in pacing, you're talking about slowing down. In space, are you trying to buy space? Are you trying to create more space through paraphrasing? Absolutely. So creating space to me is not speaking. It's taking a pause.

41:21It's using, I think, the three most powerful words of connection, which are tell me more. Yeah, exactly. And so that's creating space and giving the other person the opportunity to step forward.

41:33Dr. Michael Gervais:What doesn't work is when you mimic or parrot back what the person just said. You can half listen to someone, catch five interesting kind of buzzwords that have emotional content or are highly descriptive. And then the person say, wait, are you listening? And then you parrot it back. But they know you're not listening. or you're acting like you're listening, but you're really kind of on another. And then you say it back to them, what they've just said in using the buzzwords back. People know that's not hard listening. That's not really scrubbing to deeply understand. So I like your three. I think you're highlighting attention and intention.

42:12And a lot of people can pay attention, but they don't have the intent behind that attention to really listen. And that's what you're highlighting. So what is your intention in this conversation today? I really want to connect with you. I like your work and I think there's a lot of synergy between what you do and I do. And so I am personally here to learn about how your work and my work interlace and interact. And so to me, I'm all about learning. I'm very curious. So that's my intention is to be present and to see and connect through the questions you ask and the interests you have and see how they overlap with what I do.

42:50That's my intent.

42:51Dr. Michael Gervais:Yeah, cool. And so obviously you're from a first principle standpoint, you're honest. I like to be honest. Yeah, you could have said a lot of things, but that was like, no, I just want to make a connection because there's an overlap in the work. Yeah, very cool. So Body Mastery is brought to you by Fatty 15. Okay, let's talk about longevity. Longevity is much more than simply adding years. It's about maintaining health and a zest and a vitality and enhanced performance as you age. And that's why I'm excited about Fatty 15. It's an award-winning supplement. It's powered by C15, which is the first essential fatty acid discovered in over 90 years.

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44:10Dr. Michael Gervais:That's fatty, F-A-T-T-Y, 15.com slash findingmastery. Start investing in your long-term health today. Now, if we're using our model from the three levers that we've talked about, which is confidence, know your content with depth, and then structure. you're now speaking to confidence. Can you be brave for a moment and just kind of help me and help us understand somebody as successful as you? What do you say to yourself that doesn't work? And I'm going to also want to explore like what do you say to yourself that does work? There's a lot of chatter in my head when I communicate. And I think that's true of everybody.

44:49I feel a little extra pressure because of what I do and what I focus on. So people look at me to say, is that the right way to speak? There is no right way. There are better ways and worse ways. The thing that gets in my head, I can't tell you how much I appreciate that. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Uh, there's a lot that I say to myself that puts me at a disadvantage. I, I am constantly striving to help make sure what I say is clear and understandable. And there's a judgment that's going along all the time to do that. And I know that that judgment pulls me away from being connected to the person. And so that's where I work against myself, where I'm actively working to be very clear and connected.

45:30And yet at the same time, I'm evaluating, am I being clear? And am I being connected? So that to me is the hardest part. How I've learned to turn that dial down significantly is I constantly remind myself that I'm in service of the other person. And the actual magic in communication happens through connection. And if I allow myself to be there, I can experience that. and hopefully through being there, help somebody else experience it.

45:57Dr. Michael Gervais:What you're doing is humanizing your science and the art of your science, which is, look, somebody put you on the spot. There's a thing called the spotlight effect, which we can talk about, right? Yeah, absolutely. Is that Gilovich? Professor Gilovich? Yeah. And there's a very funny New Yorker cartoon where everybody's walking around with a spotlight shining on them, and you realize, like, oh, that's reality. Everybody has their own spotlight. But what you're reminding us is that in that nanosecond where you feel like you're on the spot, there's a voice that is your partner in there. And that voice is either like, I don't know, borrowed from a mom or dad or a coach or something like, oh, you're great in these moments.

46:41Dr. Michael Gervais:Like you really matter. You've got something to say. You're funny. You fill in the blank. Or there's a voice that says, hey, be perfect. Don't blow this one. First impressions are the only ones. they're going to find out there's another, call it positive, negative. It's really productive, unproductive, useful, unuseful. And I wish that they would over time just completely evaporate, but they do get less pervasive. Then they become more quiet and then they eventually become distant. So I'm wondering where it is for you and your work right now, like on that arc. The big unlock for me came from mindfulness and really being able to say, this is me feeling this way.

47:28This is me hearing these voices in this way. And not saying it's bad or good, but giving myself that distance. Because in some of those voices where it's like, you know, maybe you're not prepared, that actually is motivational to me. But when I hear it from a distance instead of how loud it used to be. Similarly, when I hear the positive voice saying, oh, you're going to kill it. This is great. That distance helps as well. So for me, the mindfulness of saying this is me hearing that voice, this is me feeling that feeling, gives me a little bit of space to act. And it's taken me a long time. And I wouldn't say I've reached the destination, but I've really worked hard to get there.

48:09Dr. Michael Gervais:Once you are more connected to awareness, you can see it. So to go back to the space component, is that you have more space to be able to adjust to whether it's a voice or a feeling or an emotion. And when you widen the gap and you have more space, you play more freely. And so I'm hearing what you're talking about going, oh, you've actually been down this path for quite a bit. You've invested in your own psychology to be able to help others. where did that let's call it unuseful type of thinking where did that come from for you in terms of the negative thoughts that yeah like why why would those spring up for you still as a you know i actually see it as highly motivational so i i don't know that i'd want to get rid of that i think it has i am somebody who has always been a striver i always strive for learning to understand to better connect and part of that desire i think incumbent in that is knowing that there's always more or different.

49:12And that's where I think that voice comes from. There's more, there's different.

49:15Dr. Michael Gervais:See, for me, I identify with being a striver so much that I wanted to only work with people that were as kind of wildly as motivated as I was, like call it maybe unhealthily obsessed. And I didn't understand it at that part of my life. And now what I do understand is that I needed a show for a long time that I was smart and I led with competence as a way to have people not see what was actually me because I wasn't sure and I wasn't sure if it was gonna be okay for other people. So my model was completely corrupted. And then after a lot of internal work, I said, well, this is not a right, I don't want this chessboard anymore.

50:01Dr. Michael Gervais:This is not the right game to be playing. And so I just got sick and tired of that and started playing a new game, which is how do I let go of this identity thing and be more present? And when I'm more aware, I can be more present and I can adjust more eloquently. Okay, all that being said is I think you're nodding your head because that's similar in your arc. Yeah, part of my journey has been to think about not just what I'm striving for is motivating the striving. It's what am I running away from or what am I moving away from? and that to me has been a lot of deep thought and reflection too so there's what you strive for and what motivates that but it's also what are you moving away from go ahead finish it let us in yeah well i'm trying to figure i'm trying to figure that out is it insecurity is it the feeling uh the the deep need for connection look you're at one of the brightest institutions in the world you're obviously very smart and yeah you've written something that is intelligent in a niche that is crowded.

51:02Dr. Michael Gervais:And like, so this intelligence thing, you didn't earn it. Your parents gave you intelligence, right? Like how well you express it is the performative aspect of it. And when we start to get into the performative aspect of ourselves, it's very fragile. When we're getting down into the roots and the essence of who we are, it's super stable. And what you're describing in my lenses is a performance-based identity gets triggered in these moments that you have brilliantly highlight is say, hey, Matt, can you tell us where you grew up and the most fun thing you ever did and what your role here is at the company, all that stuff.

51:38Dr. Michael Gervais:And then all of a sudden, we're flooded with emotions, feelings, and this unuseful type of narrative that is crap because we know our performance identity is at stake now. And it feels like our whole essence is at risk. That's bullshit. But it's not clear until you actually do something with it to address it, to dress it down, if you will. So can you reflect on what I just said and put it through your filters? Yeah. So this notion of performance identity is very real in my life and in the work I do. From my perspective, I see this as part of the human condition. Human beings are by evolution designed to be concerned about how others perceive us.

52:24Because in the 150-person group that we used to hang out with in evolutionary history, your relative status in that group meant everything. And if I do anything that risks that status, it could have life and death consequences.

52:39Dr. Michael Gervais:When you're marginalized for poor performance, it was a near-death sentence in some tribal experiences. Absolutely. And because we have that ingrained in who we are, it manifests itself in lots of ways. And when you're put on the spot to speak, that is a crucible moment for that to come forward. Yes. Until you actually address the performance-based identity is like this heavy armor that you've been carrying around and shining up and it's now starting to be rusty. At some point, that armor is unuseful. And flip-flops are also cool. All right. So all that being said, if we knew what you knew, how would we be better parents?

53:20Better parents. Oh, I am not the person to give parenting advice. I have two 20-somethings. And thankfully, they're out in the world doing good stuff. But for me, I'll channel my wife. My wife often says to me, say minimal words, minimal words. And that's her way of saying, one, don't lecture. I do that professionally. That's what I do. But second, part of what she's saying is listen more. Because if you're saying lots of words, that means they're not saying lots of words. So that would be the advice that I would give. And that's what I try. That's the voice I hear in my head when I'm interacting with my kids.

54:00If we knew what you knew, how would we lead better? Again, it's empathy. It's really thinking about what do people need in that moment. I am often asked, what's my leadership style? And I don't have one style. I adjust and adapt my style for the different people in the moments that I'm leading in. So it's really understanding who you're leading, what they need, where they need to be pushed, where they need to be rewarded. So to me, it's really, again, about that empathy and understanding. Why have you committed your life efforts to this? I have always been intrigued and challenged by communication.

54:33My mother was an elementary school teacher. My father was a lawyer. We were always talking about communication. My mother's like, how do you connect? How do you engage? How do you make it fun? My father's like, how do you make it clear and concise? So I'm motivated to really solve that. To me, communication is a puzzle and I'm very curious about it. And as we get more technology, as we communicate with more and different people, to me, it's absolutely thrilling and invites me in. So I'm motivated by the curiosity.

54:59Dr. Michael Gervais:What a fun conversation. Thank you for sharing and doing the hard yards to articulate your point of view and a path for folks to think faster and talk smarter, which really for me is like how to be yourself in these spontaneous moments. And you've got some really practical ways to prepare and some very concrete ways to train. I've really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you. I felt very connected. Thank you, bud. Yeah. next time on finding mastery we're back with another ask me anything episode together with mental health advocate former division one athlete and founder of the non-profit the hidden opponent victoria garrick brown mike tackles your questions about performance pressure parenting burnout confidence and the mental health challenges facing young athletes today drawing from questions submitted by our community they explore how to build resilient kids support athletes through difficult moments and create healthier relationships with performance, identity, and success.

55:59So join us Wednesday, August 5th at 9am Pacific only on Finding Mastery. All right.

56:08Dr. Michael Gervais:Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, The easiest, no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up.

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57:20Dr. Michael Gervais:Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank Thank you for listening until next episode. Be well, think well, keep exploring.