The Psychology Of Winning The Super Bowl | Seattle Seahawks Coach Mike Macdonald

21:22Dr. Michael Gervais:I love that you said elegant simplicity. This is where I was going to go. And my question was walk through the agitating state to get to elegant simplicity. There's a, there's an agitation of fog, a, there's like a haze, you know, and like really a prickly state to be able to work through, to get to the elegance of anything. So uniquely, can you just illuminate the way that you, you want something to be great, right? You are trying to figure out a complex scenario, um, with a complex set of personalities and skill sets on a team. And you're trying to create something that is simple and elegant.

22:03Dr. Michael Gervais:So that's the desired outcome. How do you work through when it's hard and it's not clear and it doesn't just snap into place and somebody else goes yeah but i think uh i think we put a lot of focus on understanding like like go a level deeper you know so like what what are what are the like mechanisms that make like the task go you know so like if we're if we're game playing for an offense for instance like what at a baseline what's what's their operation like you know where is it rooted in Can we get to the nuts and bolts of this thing? And then what's the technique that we're trying? Well, where does that come from?

22:45Can we kind of like inception? Can we go to like the next layer of like the dream state to kind of unlock some ideas about, well, maybe if we just kind of move that lever a little bit, maybe what's the effect as we kind of work our way back up towards the problem? But you got to be comfortable in that.

23:04Dr. Michael Gervais:What's so hard about that for you? I enjoy that. I enjoy that. Yeah. I was going to say, so I want to get to the hard part. Like you like that you're a systems thinker. You like to think first principles. You like to understand kind of the mechanics of things and tinkering and try to figure it out so that you can create something sweet. Yeah. There's friction when we don't like we, like if someone we're working with doesn't think that way to me, it's like, I see that as taking the easy way out sometimes, you know, where that's not really like a Seahawk way of operating. We're like, well, why don't we just go, just tell them to do whatever.

23:37It's like, well, not only is that not probably the best way to do it, but it's also you're not helping our player the best. Like, are you doing everything you can? I mean, we're here to serve the players. There's an incongruency there for, like, what our actual role is, you know, and that creates friction sometimes, you know, but that's good. You know, we've got to work through that stuff.

24:00Dr. Michael Gervais:And how do you do it when somebody, when a teammate looks like or feels like they're not pulling their weight, or they're just not wanting to go explore something because they're tired. You know, they got a lot on their plate, and here you are thinking about this, like, thing, and they're like, look, I got another 80 hours of work to do by tomorrow. You know, I don't, we haven't had a lot of experiences where I felt like someone just, like, is just lazy, and, you know, they don't want to do a good job or whatever. And that probably speaks to John and the folks that, like, bring people into our organization who we've hired.

24:33but what the way we communicate with our with our people is hey if our inputs are right and our and our um spirit is in the right place our intentions are in the right place but we're working together you know so like we're gonna we're gonna like you like you like to say we're gonna work this problem together and see if we can kind of come to a better way so and this happens a lot on offense where i'm not i'm not like an expert on offensive football but i can understand systems and hear how we're coaching it and you know you kind of look at it through a different lens. So there's a lot of times we're having conversations.

25:04Okay. Well, what are we, what are we, what do we, what's, what are we expecting from him here? And where's that rule coming from? Okay. That makes sense. Okay. That's cool. Okay. Well, let's, we're on the right page here. It feels like it. Let's just, let's keep going on the right down this path with the player and let's see if we get a different result. Maybe we're just, you know, maybe we've got some different results that we didn't like, but we, we like our process. Sometimes it says, Hey, like our intention is the right spot, but I just feel like, I feel like we could make this simpler for the guy.

25:31Like I'm not, I'm not from what we're seeing on tape is not decisive enough for like, for our style. I feel like what he's, it's not clear what we're asking him to do. Maybe let's rethink about what we want to say here or how we're coaching it. You know, like that's the approach.

25:46Dr. Michael Gervais:You've got a first principle called through not around, and it's one of the core tenants of your cultural model. Can you illuminate through a story or something that is some, a moment in time that you remember, maybe it was this season that it was a through not around moment. Um, yeah, through not around is, is, is how we want. It's like, look, we're going to earn what we, what we achieve. You know, we're not going to create excuses. Um, we're going to communicate in a way where, um, it's very matter of fact when we're like solving problems. So it's like, I'm taking the way I, I'm not even thinking about how I feel in this moment, like we're just, all we're doing is just working the problem together so we can, it's better for, for us.

26:33It's not a, the personal thing is just kind of out of it. Um, systematically too, it's, Hey, you know, we're, we want to be a violent team and a physical team. So it kind of, it, it's got its roots all the way, all, all through our program. But, um, the, probably the biggest part, biggest form of adversity I've had in the NFL is when I became a coordinator in Baltimore. and um and you know and it's again you're trying your best about building a team and you know we focused a lot on scheme that year trying to get our system put in and making sure we had all the calls and we started out playing pretty decent defense and we had and so we got the second week of the year and we played the dolphins and they were rolling and we played well like the first three quarters we had like a multiple score lead i think we were up like three or four touchdowns and then it was just just just bombs in the fourth quarter like they had got me you let if you let Tyree kill wide open on a nine ball nobody within 30 yards of the guy like shame on the coach like that is that's a reflection of of us and I think the feeling that I had from our team in that moment did you lose this game we ended up losing the game by three touchdowns we were up

27:43Dr. Michael Gervais:three touchdowns I think in the fourth quarter it's really hard to come back in the NFL from through touchdowns. Yeah, yeah. It can happen. That's why, like, in the Super Bowl, they're like, well, didn't it feel great that you had the game locked up in the fourth? I'm like, bull crap. There's, you know, like, I've lived that, you know, we're going to play through the echo of the last whistle until this thing's over with. So, it's a great lesson learned. In that intensity, the echo of the last whistle, you earned that commitment through being burned in the past, from going through a... Well, I think the moral, and the other part of the story was the feeling I had of our team we lacked confidence you know that the feeling that i want for our team here in seattle wasn't mirrored from our unit in in at baltimore at that point in the year and so instead of pointing fingers it just it felt like man if we came in here and we start playing the blame game not only is that not the right thing to do but i don't think it isn't the right thing to do like tactically because i think i think i'm jack i'm thinking i'm really the the root here like i'm kind of the common denominator.

28:44In Baltimore? In Baltimore.

28:46Dr. Michael Gervais:So did people square up with you and say, hey, listen? No, I felt like it was me and then, as a reflection of me, how we did business a little bit on defense and didn't feel true to how we really wanted to be. And so it didn't feel real at that point. So I said, well, hey, we got to square up with this thing and go through this problem together. And I think one thing that happened was when the players felt that the coaches were in the fight with them and they said, Hey, look, these are the things that we need to do a better job of to prepare you guys to go play mentally, physically, tactically, all those things.

29:23We started to feel that buy-in from the players and our process started to improve. And we didn't get it fixed overnight, but you did feel like we started to make a move. Ultimately, we got Roquan that year and we ended up playing great defense. But for a minute there, you know, it was Harry. And but if we didn't have that mentality, I don't know if we would have seen those like marginal gains, you know, kind of on the rebound there.

29:49Dr. Michael Gervais:It's easy to say through not around when you hold all of the power when you're the boss. And like we're going to go through it together. And when somebody else is like, I don't know, they made a mistake or they made a weird call. and they're feeling vulnerable in that situation. How do you demonstrate the required unity that you're in it with them? Do you have any memory of times when people have brought it straight to you and they've said, okay, threw not around? Yeah. Coach, can we sit down? Yeah. There's been some since you have to have those quite a bit in my role here. and I actually I tell my I'll tell myself like if it's a conversation that I don't want to have before I'll say like hey dude I'll tell myself hey through not around you know like you gotta put your money where your mouth is on this but I also feel like it's the spirit in which you want to have those conversations so it's not like you're just coming at someone with like like a blunt instrument and just bang over the head boom you know it's like there's a spirit behind what we're trying to it's through the lens of like what's best for us what's best for them that makes it takes the edge off a little bit.

30:58Dr. Michael Gervais:You know, you did something. You set the scene with you and me right away is that when we're going through your model and you're like, okay, there's something here through not around, like this really matters to me that we're going to have honest conversations. We're going to work the problem. We're going to go through things. And then you pause and you said, and that means me too. Like sometimes people got to come straight at me and say, listen, I need a through not around conversation. And at that moment I was like, Like, oh, he wants to be coached, too. He knows that he's part of the solution and part of the problem.

31:29And, like, so you do something.

31:33Dr. Michael Gervais:Even that little gesture you did when we first started to know each other, you do something to let people know that this isn't through not around just for you. That is for all of us. Well, I'm glad that that comes across that way. I think it's one of those things where if that's really what you want it to be about, and you like what you said earlier in the conversation if you demonstrate that every day about how you want to do business that's that's probably where it's going to actually happen you know like people are like you said people are watching the players are watching our coaches are our staff are watching i've fallen short on this plenty of times but if i think if they feel that that's genuinely how you want to operate um that's where you start to build that trust when it comes down to having those things, you know?

32:19Dr. Michael Gervais:Yeah, 100%. Cool. All right, let's go back to Georgia. We're not done that. We've talked about dad. We've talked about Maggie. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Sunlighten. I'm really excited about a new partner of ours. Something that I've come back to again and again is when I invest in recovery with the same intention that I bring to my work, everything gets better. My energy, my focus, my ability to show up fully for the people that I'm with and the work that I care about. That's why I am so bought in on the Sunlighten M-Pulse Intelligent Sauna. I was first introduced to their team a few months ago and was so impressed by what they've created.

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34:41Dr. Michael Gervais:It's a great natural time to step into growth, to refocus, to recommit to who you want to become. And this discount will not be around for long. So go to finding mastery.com slash course code renew 100 for a hundred dollars off today, because your future is not shaped by what you intend. It's shaped by what you train. Keep going. Well, when I retired, that was my senior year of high school. So, time to go to college. I ended up deciding to go to the University of Georgia. I wanted to play Ivy League baseball for Harvard. This is another through not around. There you go. So, I wanted to play Ivy League baseball for Harvard.

35:20I think we're actually talking about this today. And life comes at you fast. Hey, buddy, you're not smart enough or athletic enough to play for these guys. And your SAT scores back that up. And your 40 time backs it up as well. So, you're not going to Harvard. Was this a big dream, big ambition? Yeah, yeah. Kind of like you're kidding yourself.

35:40Dr. Michael Gervais:Did you put your chips on the line, so to speak? Like you declared this is your goal? I think I played it too safe. That was a bummer. I wouldn't say it's a regret because life happens for a reason, but that's something that I've given myself a tough time with over the years. Like you didn't really go for it. you know you didn't like put it on the line put it out there do the daily things that you need to be able to do you know do i think i could have played baseball there yeah yeah i think i like i think i had it in my body to get that done and just just didn't just didn't do it just didn't really go for it hard enough how come um probably probably fear of failure honestly yeah yeah open that up a little bit what were you really afraid what does failure mean in that scenario well at that part of my life, I hadn't had to work.

36:34I didn't really know what hard work was. Fast forward to working at Cedar Shoals High School when I was an undergrad, becoming a GA and a student assistant, and working the hours that it takes, and getting your butt kicked a little bit like you know just not not getting you know missing up an install or um you know it's big high level football university of georgia like when you when you mess up it's a little pressure cooker over time like you feel that as a ga and uh as a young coach and but like but the work was there like that's when i really understood like what what hard work meant and again another threw it on around like yeah that's a real that's a real thing you know

37:20Dr. Michael Gervais:if you strained if you worked really hard if you applied yourself and gave it everything that you had what was at risk well what i learned was that freed you up you know like what freed you up it's it freed you up to go for it yeah but the what you're saying is like you didn't really go for baseball for harvard right you said it you tried a little bit yeah it was going to be a nice thing but you didn't really go for it. Right. So I'm taking the opposite side. Like if you would have really gone for it, put it all there, put the chips, you know, on the line, so to speak. Yeah. What was at risk? You said fear of failure, but I'm trying to understand like what, what, what were you really afraid of?

38:01I think I had a, I think it was important for me to be viewed a certain way in terms of like a stature, you know? So kind of, it would have been a knock on like my like own identity that I saw myself. So it's, so it's, it's sobering to see like, Oh, you're like, not only did you not go for it, but your scores don't back it. Like you don't even, you lack the criteria too. Like it's not like you're, it's not like you were wrong.

38:27Dr. Michael Gervais:But you had a story. Well, I didn't really go for it. So of course I wasn't, if I would have applied myself, I could have. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. What you're describing, I, I hope the viewer really can hear this and watch this because, this is what I believe is one of the greatest constrictors for a person's potential. Because I have so much regard and respect for the people who put it on the line. That vulnerability to really go for something is so special because it could fall apart. And then you are left knowing that you did not have what it took to be able to meet the demands of something or the opportunity.

39:10What I've learned is like, I don't really know what it means to not have what it takes. Like, I don't think that's really a thing. Because the process is going to like, unless there's like one finite thing, you work up to like just one thing. Maybe it's like a gold medal, but like still, I mean, it's still like winning a Super Bowl, for example. Like so much has to happen right that is really out of control, if you really want to be honest, to win a Super Bowl. But we put everything into it, and a lot of the other teams did too. And we've had this conversation, but if we fell short, I'm pretty confident that I'd feel the same way about what we did and what our football team became.

39:56Dr. Michael Gervais:Yeah, I would too. So it's not like we wouldn't have had what it takes. You know what I mean? This is you knowing, though, the value from the sting of not getting into Harvard. And the honest story is that I didn't really apply myself because I wanted to save my stature, my identity, my sense of self and the way people saw me. The reason I know this so well, Mike, is this was my story. And I think this is more people's story than you and I know. This is my story. This is what happened to me for most of my life until I faced it. I was like, what am I doing? Like, why am I playing this game? Like, what am I afraid of?

40:37Dr. Michael Gervais:I'm afraid of looking stupid. I'm afraid of looking like I don't have what it takes. But really, if you honestly work a process, you deeply invest in the inputs, you start to quickly learn. There's a lot that has to fall into place to get these extraordinary outputs, like a Super Bowl. Yeah, it's liberating. Which part is liberating? Honest investment on inputs? Yeah, like even pursuing coaching. I didn't think I was going to be a head coach in the NFL. You didn't have that as a goal. No, but I just loved coaching, you know, and I did want to be on a certain trajectory. I did want to coach big-time football, but I didn't really know what that looked like.

41:19There's a whole world out there I just wasn't really exposed to. I thought I knew what I wanted, you know, I just didn't really. But that wasn't part of my daily inputs of like, oh, what if I wasn't worried about that? I was just, I was actually working, like to your point, I was working like an honest process behind it. And then I just, that, that let me like let go of who I was, where I was going to become a coach or, no, you're incredibly blessed. Like that the Ravens call you one day and they want to interview you. Like, you know, that doesn't happen to everybody, but would have that have happened if I didn't work the way that I did for the four years or five years that I was coaching private?

41:56You know, probably not, you know, so football was kind of like that. Like I felt like I put my whole, I felt like I got the best version of myself with football. Like, and I'm okay with like how my career ended in football because as a player, yeah. Cause I, I, I knew that like, I knew how hard I worked as a football player. Like that's when I learned, you know, different than baseball.

42:17Dr. Michael Gervais:And the relationship that your dad created that space to keep pushing, exploring and figuring out and unlocking as opposed to like you having to defend yourself and the agitation to get coached. Yep. That's something. Yeah. Yeah. It's wild how it works out. Isn't that something? Yeah. Do you, I don't know if you relate to this or not, but like, how can you speak to folks that might wrestle with imposter syndrome? And I'll paint a scenario. I don't know if you ever worked through this yourself, but like, I never played the game at a high level, you know, like, and here I am. If they only knew, like, I could barely catch a ball on a 20 yard out route.

42:52Dr. Michael Gervais:Like, you kid, or whatever. What position did you play? It doesn't matter, but linebacker and running back. Yeah, that's what I figured. You know, like, so like, do you, was that ever a thing? Oh, yeah. It was. I still feel that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How do you, how do you work it? Another one of the conversations we had last year, I just, I don't know if it's completely imposters, but we had that kind of going into the Super Bowl of, I think our conversation was something along the lines of like, hey, we grew up like watching these like epic documentaries You know, it's like this was a Super Bowl when you grew up and, you know, they got the commercials and it's the party.

43:32And it's like it's this thing on a pedestal that like giants are part of, you know, the Bill Cowers of the world. And, you know, Jimmy Johnson's and like, you know, Troy, Brett Favre, like Brett Favre running around with his helmet off. Like that's some epic, epic stuff. You know, now there's movie. You know, there's all these. And now here we are. You know, how are we? Are we are we sure we're part of that? Like that crew? Do we get lucky? Yeah. Do we really deserve to be part of this history, this kind of class of what, because that's the way I saw it when I was growing up, just as a kid and being a fan of the game.

44:09Dr. Michael Gervais:I want to pause that because this is really important, is that you had a, I don't call it a nine-year-old or 10-year-old model of the Super Bowl. Yeah. And then, and it was a good model. is what a nine or 10 year old would look at and be like, oh, look at these guys, bigger than life. And these are the heroes or these are absolute legends. And that's a good model for a nine or 10 year old, the unsophisticated nine or 10 year old. And then fast forward 20, 30 years and then you're in the same kind of space. You're like, oh, but I'm still operating from the old model. And you also know the adult truth, which is like you poured everything into an honest process.

44:49Yeah. Yeah, that's like the medicine. It was like, oh, what are you guys actually? What have you done? What have you proven over the course of our process or our year, year and a half or two years, however far you want to go back? And there's like a lot of great evidence there. And so I had to take myself out of that. I had to look at it from a different angle. You know, like, oh, if I'm just third party observer coming from, from this different, like wider lens, like that's you guys, yeah, you guys, like you should be here and you should, you should not because it was just like we've, like I've told our team from when I felt like we got to that point, I was like, we should, we should get to the point where we should, we should expect to win every game we play.

45:44if we play our best football, you know, because we've earned that right through, you know, who we are and what we've done and all that. And so going back to that thought process was really helpful, you know, going into the last few days for the, before the game,

45:58Dr. Michael Gervais:people ask me all the time. They're like, I don't want to say it out loud, but I'm kind of struggling or I have struggled with imposter syndrome. Like, you know, and I stopped right away and I kind of grin, I'm like, welcome to the club. Yeah. If you're trying to do something special, you don't know if you have what it takes. You also know that you got some breaks somewhere in there and like, you can't quite sort out why, but you do need to honor all of that. And at the same time, pause and be like, wait, hold on. What are those things that I've honestly been investing in that I know is real? And am I okay with however this thing goes?

46:35Dr. Michael Gervais:I want it so bad, but am I okay? No matter how this thing goes. And am I going to keep investing in an honest way on the inputs, the things I can control. I think it's good for you. Like you do. Yeah. It means you're out on the edge. You're on the edge. You're also like, there's a humility to it. Like you realize it's not, there's other forces at play. Um, you know, it keeps you, keeps you, like I keeps you on the edge in terms of, am I, am what the sense of urgency and behind our process, you know, like, am I really thorough and what we should be doing to get prepared, you know, know get prepared no i think on the other hand you need to be able to have those conversations yourself to get you ready to go execute and go go perform but boy said like if you catch me walking around our building like haha we got this we're gonna whip ass this week like just punch me in the face because like that's that's not that's not how i operate you know we will never say that you know as much as we're you know the points for all that stuff that's just that's not even in our stratosphere of like of how we think what's it like to um pick a handful of folks that you're like, okay, this athlete or these athletes, they challenge me.

47:44Dr. Michael Gervais:They're challenging. And I'm not saying it's negative, but like they're holding a standard. They challenge me in whatever ways. And maybe a couple of athletes that you're like, and tell it through the lens of some stories where you're like, oh my God, like this, I've learned so much. It could be the same athlete. Yeah, a few guys come to mind. I mean, Coop on offense. Cooper Cup. He, one, just like the resume that he's coming from, but again, his process, the level of like, we say shocking here, but like the level of detail that he has of understanding of like how he operates, the details of not only his job, but how the whole offense works together.

48:27To me, it's inspiring. I'm not the one drawing up our offensive scheme, nor am I the one like coaching the X's and O's behind it, But to be on that, you really respect like that is what we owe our players all the time.

48:44Dr. Michael Gervais:He's a professional sportsman. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And the way he's with L.A. for a lot of years and had a lot of success. And so he's seen a way of doing things for a while that has been really effective. And he has his own thoughts on the process and what works and what doesn't. And he's not afraid to have those conversations with you, which I really appreciate that. you know, I'm talking about as a team, like as a, from the head coaching perspective, process, travel, you know, scheduling reps in practice tempo. I mean, all those different things. Uh, he has a, he has a different perspective on it coming from a completely different like worldview from where I came from.

49:20And, um, again, another through not around thing. He's not afraid to like bring it up. And, um, and I appreciate that, you know, that's a lot of fun.

49:27Dr. Michael Gervais:How much do you think that has to do with the way you say, Hey, bring it to me. Like, and I mean that like yeah i think uh and how much is it like he's going to do it no matter what well with koopa he'd probably do it no matter what i mean he talked to clint a good bit last year he talked to clint our coordinator a little a good bit last year you know he's got a lot of thoughts on it but as he should you know i mean again he's earned like he's earned that from how he operates and his track record and and we've asked and i've asked for it you know i've asked for it i think it It doesn't take a lot of conversations, I believe at least.

50:00The players are going to know and they communicate. So if you're going to bring something up and then shoot a guy down once he comes to you, the word's going to get around quickly. I think one of the strengths that we have here is I'm not coming to the table saying, hey, look, this is the Seahawk way of doing it. Go to page 43. You'll figure out what you do on July 3rd at 3 o 'clock. look, this is the formula. It's like, no, I'm kind of new to this thing too. And we're going to apply our principles, but we're all going through this thing together. And so we are scrimmaging ideas out and we are kind of in search for the best way of doing things for us.

50:41And it turns out it's not just me making those decisions all the time. Ultimately, I'm responsible for what shows up, but the ideas can come from anywhere.

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51:28Dr. Michael Gervais:I've been building businesses for over two decades now, and I'll tell you, the right team, that matters so much. It's the difference between grinding and flowing. So this partnership, I believe in from the inside out. When you hire through a platform like LinkedIn Hiring Pro that surfaces people who are genuinely aligned with what you're building, you get a different quality of candidate, not just in skills, but in fit and values. the kind of energy someone brings to a team. So if you're thinking about your next hire, I want to strongly encourage you to be intentional about where you look. The right person is out there and LinkedIn Hiring Pro helps you find them faster with a lot more confidence.

52:07Dr. Michael Gervais:Post your job for free at linkedin.com slash mastery. Terms and conditions apply. Again, that's linkedin.com slash mastery. Finding Mastery is brought to you by AG1. Summer is right around the corner, at least for those of us in the Northern Hemisphere. You can just feel it though. Days are longer, pace picks up, and there's this sense of momentum that comes with the season. For me, that also means more travel. It's more early mornings, more late nights, and it's just really a schedule that isn't consistent as I'd like it to be. That's exactly when having a simple, reliable, daily foundation, it matters.

52:45Dr. Michael Gervais:AG1 has been that foundation for me for over a decade now. One scoop and a glass of cold water in the morning, and I know I'm supporting my gut health, full stop. Filling the nutrient gaps that are hard to cover through food alone. And what ends up happening is I'm giving my body what it needs to keep showing up. And that really matters to me. What I love about AG1 is that it doesn't ask a lot of me. It's one habit, one scoop, and it travels easily. The AG1 travel packs are something I genuinely rely on this time of the year. I throw a few in my bag before a trip and the routine stays intact wherever I am.

53:20Dr. Michael Gervais:If you haven't tried AG1 yet, or you've been planning to think about getting back into it, now's a great time to start. Visit drinkag1.com slash finding mastery to get an AG1 flavor sampler and a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2 free in your welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription. It's a$72 value. Again, that's drinkag1.com slash finding mastery. When you've got tension with an athlete, And let's say that you've been coaching hard on something and you've been working it. And let's say it's just game day for an example. And they make the same mistake that you've been working on. Yeah. And it's costly, let's say.

54:02Dr. Michael Gervais:What do you do to erode trust? And what do you do that builds trust? I'm not perfect in this area. When you're at your worst, when you're at your best. Yeah. At our worst, it's a knee-jerk reaction. at our best we're playing the long game um you said we not me yeah well me too yeah you know um and is that something how do you prime yourself to not be reactive in a high stress environment when there's a costly mistake when something that somebody has been working on and they screwed it up well i i feel like i need to be i need to be i need to be in my pocket you know sometimes i feel like that'll that'll get displaced to the player you know that that happens i can think of like times where that's happened where yeah i'm displacing my frustration with myself to somebody else you know so it's like well i need to handle my business first you know if i'm gonna so i can so i can handle that like my job my job on game day is to lead the team and to handle the game and the situations and um it's not to have emotional reactions to things that happen on the field you know so if i'm not in the right headspace or in the right like preparation then those some that's when those that's where i feel like i'm most like vulnerable to those decisions but if i'm if i'm on my stuff the way i should be um you're kind of like in you're in you're in it with them right at that point you just you got to move and shake and adjust and And we can deal with some of those more drastic decisions at the right time.

55:40But normally right then is not the right time to deal with those things. What do you think the athlete needs after a mistake that was obviously his fault? Yeah.

55:51Dr. Michael Gervais:What do you think an athlete needs in that moment? Support.

55:57There's different ways of doing it, but it's about moving on to the next thing. You know, like what's important now is we go to the next play. We're, you know, we say we're a moment-by-moment team going and trying to win another moment. You know, going and trying to win another play. How you get that done is probably unique to the relationship you have with the player, what works best with them. Maybe sometimes it's not even me or a coach. Sometimes it's another teammate. It's just different ways to communicate. But how we do it together is really important.

56:29Dr. Michael Gervais:And you gave, you just gave the answers away to like another clue of your success is that it's the relationship. If you have an honest relationship or you've built the relationship, you'll have a better chance at supporting them. Because maybe that support is like, hey, you know, you know what you need to do. Right. Maybe that's supportive. Right. Maybe another way to support is like, all right, I got you. We'll figure this thing out. Like, keep balling. There's good in you. You know, like there's more in you or something like that. If I'm doing it right and the player has had a hard time doing that thing, for me to continually put him in that situation is on me.

57:02So a lot of times you feel that responsibility, like, shoot, I shouldn't have done that. I knew he had a hard time with that. It's not his fault. He's shown that he hasn't been able to do that. Whose fault is that? You asked him to do something he can't do, you're going to ask Mike McDonald to go dunk. I can't dunk. Shame on you. It's not my fault I can't dunk. you know so like that's that's how i look at it um and then if you if you've gotten to the point where you're gonna ask them to do something in a game and they and they don't do it and they've shown the ability to do it and the intent's in the right place and the inputs are in the right place man is that like it's it's so smooth you know it's really just a non-issue it's just just a non-issue it's a bummer but it's a it's really should be a non-issue not always that way but That's the way you want it.

57:52Dr. Michael Gervais:You've got Sam Darnold who came into the Seattle Seahawks with like a narrative about him. You got a young coach, you know, that was a bit of like the community was not sure what they were going to get. How do you navigate that with the one of the star players that that relationship, that kind of narrative around both of you guys? You address it. Do you talk about it? Like, how do you work that relationship? We never talked about it. You didn't? no especially from a defensive perspective like like sam needs to get coached he needs to get coached hard as does the rest of the team you know but like i'm not the defensive expert i'm not the quarterback footwork expert that's not my that's not my area now if if sam was like tripping about not working in practice whatever which would never happen like to me that's that's you know it's like that's that's an issue but that's that's and that's a non-issue my thing for sam is he needs someone in his corner you know he needs he needs from the head coach and it's not like i'm just making up support for him it's like okay well let me see how this guy operates well it's pretty cool like his teammates respect the heck out of him he's got a great way of of um like being a competitor and having an edge to him and being real but like it's just a great he's got a great like balance where you can kind of bob and weave through those like modes and it's just like well what does he need you know let's let's let's give him what he needs to for the best you know for as best as we know let's give him what he needs and and let's just let's go from there but if you see all the things you like seeing on a daily basis and then you know like a game like the we make such a big deal the rams game but like a game doesn't go your way well i just saw all the inputs that i liked and i liked all the inputs so who am I I'm not gonna can't switch up now this is you know we're kind of we're kind of all in here together you know like I've signed off on what we've been doing for the last x amount of days weeks months we're in the fight together at this point you know so that that's that's probably the way I looked at it but honestly try not to make it more than it is you know for folks that like love the NFL and they they might know some of the backstory of players or histories of folks.

1:00:11Dr. Michael Gervais:But their most intimate connection is on Sunday when they watch. What are some of the things that folks would be surprised to know or would not have surprised you when you first got into the NFL about leadership, about locker room rules? What are some things that are interesting to you still? I cut my teeth through scheme. Again, I didn't play. So my job was to find patterns and breakdowns and, you know, where to draw lines on a sheet of paper, how to install. But at the end of the day, I joke with people like we sell football widgets. You know, the things that are successful that makes teams successful in football are those principles are the same across.

1:00:55I would imagine most teams in all different industries and all different shapes and sizes, you know, and and it shows up. It's just not in a vacuum. You can have different coordinators, you can have different coaches, you can have different players, but it's all connected. Special teams is connected to offense, and offense is connected to defense, and the offensive line play is connected to our D-line play. How well our rookies do is connected to what the veterans are doing. Everything that's playing, it all matters. It all matters. And then there's this synergy behind it, and that's one of our core principles, obviously, but I really believe that there's a power there if you get it right.

1:01:38Dr. Michael Gervais:What would people be shocked to know about the NFL that they don't know? I think people, to most fans, the NFL is like contracts and big names and superstars and who's the defensive genius. You know, it's like, okay, yeah, like great players matter. You need great players. Coaches matter. but like it all matters and, and there's a multiplication effect behind it. You know, you know, one of the things that if, if you, you were to ask me that question, I would say just how honest the locker room can be. The coaches rooms sometimes are not honest, but the locker rooms, like they're really honest rooms because they're counting on each other and they, they tell the truth to each other.

1:02:25Dr. Michael Gervais:And when they don't, there's such tension. They figure out a way to kind of break through that, to get to it. Like that's one of the things. Yeah, I buy that. Yeah, you buy that. It's really refreshing. You know, where people threw not around is what we're talking about, but it's really refreshing, you know. It's like I've always said players know. Well, what do they know? Well, they know who's full of shit. They know who's a good coach. They know who the best players are. You know, they know what the organization is like. They just know. They know. So if you go around trying to fool them, like shame on you.

1:02:58You have no idea.

1:03:00Dr. Michael Gervais:How do you think they know? I don't know. They just know. They just know. I mean, probably to your point, this is honest, you know, like they're living it and ultimately like their livelihood's on the line, you know, so they're, uh, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. They just know. If we knew what you knew, how would we be a better leader? I think that there's just something to be said for like being like a, like a, like a authenticity to the process, like a real, like if it's a real honest process where you're not trying to fool anybody, you're not trying to pull a fast one, you know, like you actually understand what's going to work, how your industry works, what your customer wants.

1:03:44You're not going to fool your customer. I think I would imagine it's a pretty easy parallel. Like whoever you're serving is going to know whether or not, like, you know, you can go to a company, you can go to a restaurant and know, like, do they care about the customer? You can feel it. You can feel it. Like, we joke about, like, certain brands that we have relationships with. Like, do they really care that I, what I want? Or do they have me in mind with what they're doing? Do they really, some companies, you feel that way. Like, that's a real thing.

1:04:16Dr. Michael Gervais:What does it mean to be the type of coach that players want to play for? the leaders that employees want to be led by like but players to be coached by i think if you if we can if we can create we're trying to create an environment where the short answer is where you feel like you can be your best version of yourself and play your best football so how to like how does that come to life well to me it's not like a rigid set of like you gotta like the same thing goes back to like the coach's playbook like you don't have to do okay like you don't have to do items a through double z in that order and you'll play your best football it's like there's space there's space where i can be myself and i can be like i can just and loosen up a little bit you know i can be you know i can move and shake and have some freedom to like okay well the coach trusts me that my i've shown that like my inputs are right and i just and maybe i was a little silly or maybe i maybe i was i did go over the edge you know we say chasing edge Maybe I did go to the edge a little bit, but I'm not going to get burned for it because we do feel like we're in it together.

1:05:22And so we're it's that kind of ongoing, like give and take relationship of there's a sense of urgency to push the envelope, to chase the edge, you know, to be great, to hold yourself to a high standard. But it's also, you know, room to wiggle a little bit and have some innovation and to try something that might not work. But maybe it does. Now you get a huge payoff. Like there's a dichotomy there, but if you get the balance right, I think, I think, uh, you can create something pretty cool.

1:05:49Dr. Michael Gervais:You got a full, full life, full plate. You are a head coach, winning head coach. Yeah. Crazy. You're a head coach. You were a husband. You're a father. You're a son. You've got lots of really important roles. You're a brother. How has being a father impacted this very full life that you have? Yeah. It's a few things. The first thing is just is perspective. Again, you're playing the long game. You're playing the long game. Like what actually, what actually, what are we actually doing here?

1:06:27Patience, you know, like I feel, I didn't know I was going to be this way with Jack that like, I just like love watching him do his thing, you know, and I love it. And if he screws up, it's like, ah, you know, but I was in the right spot or like, oh, that was a cute that it was a cute screw up or he's always pissed. And now he's he's crying. It's like, well, I guess I would rather not cry. But like maybe how do I get him not to cry? You know, like what does he need? You know, something something's up. You know, it's not just doing it because I thought I would probably have like less patience with him.

1:07:04You know, I was like, hey, you got to be the got to be a good boy. You know, I thought I kind of thought that was about myself a little bit. so I'm like puzzling surprised I guess but seeing through the lens of like okay this is someone that I really obviously really care about the players are the same way the people that you work with are the same way let's play a little bit of a longer game here you know and lightens you up a little bit you know loosens you up a little bit

1:07:28Dr. Michael Gervais:when I first had my son maybe the similar age is that I didn't know what to say when I was working with people so I watched you I'm like, damn, he's like, he's on it. You were on it this year. You were really on it. And I didn't know what to say. I'd sit down with an athlete or, you know, some extraordinary performer in some vein. And I was like, everything was so jostled because of this new life in my life that I listened a lot. And I lost my voice. And so I was wondering how it affected you because that was definitely not it. Interesting. Yeah, that was definitely not how you did it. Sometimes I'm thinking like, well, what do I say to Jack?

1:08:14Dr. Michael Gervais:Oh, you do? All the time. I overthink like how to communicate with him. Yeah, it's something that I'm trying to be better. What does your heart long for? With him? In life.

1:08:30legacy has always been

1:08:36something important to me. Not like, hey, I want to be the best guy or looked at the best, but how you've created and impacted for the long haul. Can you create something real? That was like the pitch as a head coach coming to Seattle is like, this is what we want to create here. You know, there's something special that people can be proud of and have like, have be, have pride in, in the team and the community and like sense of, um, connection and, you know, have people look up here to the Pacific Northwest, be like, Hey, what the heck's going on up there? Like, you know, and then that inspires people and then just this kind of snowball effect of, of coolness, you know, that's, that's the big vision.

1:09:25Dr. Michael Gervais:Make it sweet. Make it sweet. Make it sweet. That's right. I want to take a second here to tell you about a morning routine that I've been using for years. For me, it's a great way to switch on my mind, to ready myself, to take on the day. So before I check my phone, my emails, market updates, or text threads, I choose how to start my morning. That's always in my control. That's always in your control too. This is the same morning mindset routine that some of the world's top performers across sport, business, and the arts are using. The best part? It only takes about 90 seconds to do. So just head over to FindingMastery.com slash morning to download the audio guide for free.

1:10:05Dr. Michael Gervais:Again, head to FindingMastery.com slash morning to get your morning mindset routine. When you zoom way out, beyond the rules, what do you hope that the Seattle Seahawks community would understand so that they could be just a little bit better in their own lives? Whatever that means for them. I think Jody had a great comment after the Super Bowl was she wants our team to be looked at through like the merits of what we do. And and like she wants our principles, our way of life to like shine through how we go about our way of life. You know, and it just made so much sense. Is this like they deserve that?

1:10:57You know, our guys deserve that. Our team deserves that, I think. and it just keeps it simple. It is what it is. And our community, I think they see that. And I think if our hearts were in a different spot, if we were kind of playing a different game, again, I think people would feel that to a certain extent and it wouldn't be as impactful. I don't think it would be as potent.

1:11:25Dr. Michael Gervais:Last kind of thoughtful question here, and I got a couple more, is like, here's a surprise tell me tell me about what this means to you uh the first thing is is i'm wearing all my graduation regalia off of like all the crap that i won in high school back then like that really mattered to me i got the what the blue thing was uh was a national arts society i got french national arts society uh i got the ajc cup which is like supposed to go to the top senior or whatever. You had all the badges. All the badges. All the badges. All the badges. Yeah. But that's what I was thinking back then. Yeah. But like I see it now.

1:12:09I just see me and my sisters. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of cool. It's really cool. I just got off the phone with Maggie and it's just like, we're not talking about the Super Bowl. You know, we talk about the team and like what's going on and, you know, but like we're talking about life, you know, We're talking about our two boys. My dad and my stepmom just visited there. We're just talking about life. We're bouncing ideas off each other. And it's just like we've always had those conversations. It's just really cool.

1:12:41Dr. Michael Gervais:I think people would be surprised at just how much you bring the essence of your loved ones into what you do. Yeah. Right? It's one of the reasons I wanted to show that. And then I did not know you were going to say, oh, my God, I'm wearing all my stickers. That's right. And then that's the best way to put it. My stickers. If we juxtaposed your recounting of that to the way that you were handed the Lombardi trophy on stage. Yeah. Most people, when they're, when they're giving something like that, they hoist it up. They show everybody. And it's like, not about look at me. It's look at the thing, but it's like, I'm the one holding it.

1:13:16Dr. Michael Gervais:And you like, you held it like almost like, um, thoughtfully. and then you motioned for a couple of your players to come celebrate with you. Totally different than look at my stickers. It was like, let's do this together. Yeah. Which is a really like. A little different from back in the day. It's way different. It's one of those subtle things. It's in plain sight, but there's a lot. There's a lot of wisdom in that moment. I appreciate that. Yeah. What was that like for you? Oh, sorry. Go ahead. I remember when I got this trophy, we were at my, it was actually at my church where they were doing graduation.

1:13:53And, uh, and so they, they call my name and I go up there and there's a bunch of people there graduated with like 500 people and all their families are there. And I remember wanting, this is embarrassing to say like publicly, but I remember wanting to get on the microphone and deliver a thank you speech to everybody. And I did one of the, like the, I mean, it's, I mean, it's like shameful, you know, but I remember that because it mattered so much to me.

1:14:21Dr. Michael Gervais:And then here, 20 years later, whatever it is, like you're wanting to pull people forward. Yeah. We're obviously the. Yeah, it just didn't feel right in that moment to be like, hey, like. This is mine. It's like, it's not mine. They just, you know, this is. Yeah, it was our, you know, it was always it was always ours, you know, and so it's just a nod to those to the guys. Cool moment. All right. So we've got, in the Finding Master community, we've got people that are serious about the Seahawks. Love it. Great. They're everywhere. It's all through everywhere. Richard Schott asks, how do you help players separate their self-worth from the Sunday box score so that they can perform freely at an elite level?

1:15:05Dr. Michael Gervais:Wow. Richard. You weren't kidding about people listening. Our community is really smart. Yeah, that's great. Right. This is a tricky one because like you get rewarded financially so much through the block through your actual like sack numbers or touchdown numbers or whatever. So it's it's a constant communication of how the how like your production is really a reflection of like your impact on team success. and where you like fit in in the cog and how like you know people when you say right you know rising tide raises all ships but it really is that that mentality so like you can be a heck of a productive player and just play the a gap and it's our job as coaches to make that come to life on why that is so important and you doing like that dirty work man does that set up that just set up the corner for an interception believe it or not you know like you can you can you can connect the dots And so we coach that way systematically, how everything kind of like works off each other.

1:16:11It's not easy. It's a balancing act. Honestly, it's, uh, it's, um, it's one, it's one of our biggest challenges. Yeah.

1:16:17Dr. Michael Gervais:I think one of the things that you do is you, you don't tie their box score to their self-worth. The language does not support it. The model does not support it that you've built. Um, and I've never heard anyone in this organization say, you know, once you get it right, then you're worth something. yeah like you you have you just i think richard there's like this there's a clear understanding that you are not what you do you are in of yourself you have value and worth and we want to be able to honor what makes you special put you in the right situation and support and challenge you to do just that yeah i think i think a couple things come to mind listen to is we try to celebrate like the non-obvious and like you being the self-worth of like you being a great teammate we try to celebrate that in front of people like try to find you doing those things and we have like however little ways of doing it they're unique to us which is cool uh i think what what makes our organization really great is the people that john has hired to surround the players has nothing to do with your production on the field.

1:17:28Our investment in our players is the same, in terms of the person, is the same as the guy we're paying 20 million bucks is the guy that just walked in the door. They have all the same resources, and we invest all that equally throughout the team. But it's not easy.

1:17:47Dr. Michael Gervais:Joe Barsana. Okay, so he asks, what role does vulnerability play in high-performance environments like the NFL? I feel like this is a layup question. I feel like you picked this one. I did not pick this one. Man, this is something that maybe not intentionally that we got right. I think this, honestly, probably just going through the process of, hey, we're in it together, you know, the language, the model. But I do think, like, if you actually do feel like you're part of the solutions and, like, and getting it right when you do fall short like i do feel like it's my responsibility to let the guys know you know where because i'm in the fight with them so it's like if i'm if i'm the way i don't know if you're out in battle with somebody like and you debriefed after a mission you know all those high performing teams are always like oh i yeah i should have i should have cleared that i should have gone right when i went in that room i i screwed you up there and that's you know and it's like that's it's just to me it's like a no-brainer and we we go to our we say to our players look my job is to is to put you in at premium situations where you can have success that's my job whether how we train you how we call the game how we game plan the expectation that i have for us and for our coaches that we consistently put you in the upper hand situation like otherwise you know what are we doing you know like why are we why do we study tape and i would add one little subtlety here is that you, we both know this is not just unique to us, but you can't demonstrate courage without some sort of vulnerability because courage is like, I'm scared and I'm going to do this thing anyway.

1:19:27Dr. Michael Gervais:It's like bravery and courage. And there's an energy about like, you're not quite sure, but you're still going to go for it. And you can practice vulnerability. One of the ways you can practice it is having an honest conversation with somebody about something you normally don't talk about. These subtle little hallway conversations or shaped experiences that you have invested in making sure that those happen. And it's like these small little additions, you know, to, to being courageous by moments of vulnerability that you wouldn't expect only happen on game day or on Wednesday and intense practice.

1:20:04Yeah. It's, it's, it's um it's practicing it that you know that's really i guess it's that simple like to my point earlier is like if i make if i put a guy in a bad spot it's my job to take responsibility for that in a group setting so they know that i'm i'm in it with them like when we talk about how we want to operate and we want to be a connected team how do you become a connected team if you're not if you're not willing to like lower those walls so people can understand who you are and where you're coming from. You know, it's something that we've worked on with me. And then our team and our leaders have done a great job of, of, um, setting the example, you know, in our conversations with, with younger guys.

1:20:46Dr. Michael Gervais:Answer in one word or two or whatever. It all comes down to reality. Success is marked by dedication. If you could sit with a true master of craft, true master, who would that be? Wow. That's a great one. And there's like, you can go in so many different directions. Uh, Teddy Roosevelt. Total surprise. My mind went in all sorts of places on that one. If you had one question for Teddy, I'd love to learn like his, like how he got his mindset, you know, like where, where does that come from and why, you know, because it's more aggressive than mine. You know, there's more, there's some more, you know, there's some more, like, there's more like bravado to it, you know, like more, like case in point from your question, like I like to, I like to assess and then go, I felt like he, it's a little bit of a superpower that you're really thoughtful and pensive and you're not bullied by this empty space like you just, you know, I'm sure this is out there that he had a speech writer, but his 1921 Sarbonne-Paris speech is elite.

1:22:03Dr. Michael Gervais:It is unreal. Yeah, I can't quote that. Yeah. Well, you've heard a snippet of it, the quote-unquote man in the arena. But that entire prose is like unbelievable. Pressure comes from? Lack of preparation. Vision is? Beacon of light in the Northwest. Who tells you no? Leslie Frazier. What's up, Leslie? Coach, it was so fun to be able to have this conversation with you, to celebrate your approach to being your very best, your approach to helping this team be their very best. And I've loved every minute of being able to ride shotgun in this world that you're architecting. Appreciate you, brother. It's been awesome.

1:22:53Dr. Michael Gervais:And I love this conversation. Is there anything that you want to make sure that we didn't talk about that? No, I mean, we could go. I feel like we could go all day. Yeah. Yeah. You need your own show. That I don't need, but.

1:23:08It was fun being on this one, though. Appreciate you. Yeah, you too, brother. Next time on Finding Mastery, we're joined by Dr. Volta Longo, professor and director of the Longevity Institute at USC and bestselling author of The Longevity Diet and Fasting Cancer. In this conversation, he shares groundbreaking research on fasting-mimicking diets and the remarkable role they may play in helping the body repair itself, fight disease, and even support cancer treatments. From longevity and nutrition to the science of cellular renewal, this episode explores how small changes in how we eat may have a profound impact on our long-term health.

1:23:43Join us Wednesday, June 24th at 9am Pacific, only on Finding Mastery. All right.

1:23:52Dr. Michael Gervais:Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up.

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1:25:04Dr. Michael Gervais:Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.