The Psychology of Youth Sports | AMA Victoria Garrick Browne and Dr Michael Gervais

22:47And I was like, there's no way I can endure this for four years. But then fortunately, my love of the sport was so strong and powerful that I did pretty much every single thing I could do to figure out how to make this work. That included, you know, seeking help and working with a school counselor, mentorship, reading so many books, Mindset by Carol Dweck I loved, The Inner Game of Tennis by Timothy Galway I loved. The podcast, I mean, I was in, yeah, weekly therapy, got on antidepressants. I went through a lot, and I did take a mental health break in between my junior and senior season, but I struggled a lot, and I was constantly balancing and navigating my love for the sport.

23:33I cannot imagine quitting. I cannot imagine walking away from something I've put so many years of my life into, and I also am not enjoying it, and I'm crying, and I'm depressed, and I'm really in a dark place and how do I cope?

23:48Dr. Michael Gervais:Was the anxiety depression, what was it more? If they're both the same coin, but an opposite side. I feel like the depression was a result of the performance anxiety that was not treated. And eventually after being so wired and so anxious and so like just exhausted by that, you can't help but fall into a state of numbness because I feel like my body didn't have any more like anxiety. It was on the fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, flight, flight, flight, run, run, run. Yeah, that it became like, I'm literally numb. So yeah, I feel like just a major depressive episode is what followed the performance anxiety.

24:27Dr. Michael Gervais:Was it more on the lonely side or more on the sad side? Honestly, both. I definitely felt really isolated and alone at times. Was it more on the lethargic side or kind of the flat side? And there's a subtle difference between those two. Like I feel heavy or like I'm just, I am numb and flat. I think it was numb and flat. And I'm a very enthusiastic, caring, talkative person. So for me to be in like a, I don't care, hit me with a car, like was shocking for my brain to compute, you know? Have you ever talked about how bad it was? And I'm not asking you to talk about it if you haven't. Yeah. And I'm so happy to talk about it.

25:06I definitely had a stretch in my, during one of my seasons with like just thinking of suicidal ideation. And I think the thing that I always describe to people is prior to this episode, I never understood why someone would be responsible for their life ending. And it was in this moment of time, I was like, oh, I totally get it. And that was crazy for me because I could see why someone would die by suicide. Whereas now out of that place, I'm like, oh, I'm back to, I can't understand it. We can help you. There's light at the end of the tunnel. Like stick to the trust. Like you're going to get out of that.

25:48So that's kind of how I would describe it.

25:51Dr. Michael Gervais:Yeah, and to add a cool feature to this conversation is that you've taken that hard road and created The Hidden Opponent, which is a nonprofit organization that is in college campuses to help people that are struggling with the inner game and to provide tools and resources. Well done. Thank you. Really well done. To take a thing. You are an emblem for what it means to have a purpose-based approach, a purpose-based identity, and to be in service of something far larger than you and to try to muster your best to your abilities, people and resources that will help move this purpose forward. Well done.

26:26Dr. Michael Gervais:The Hidden Opponent. Thank you. Dot com, dot org? I appreciate it. Yeah,.org. And we have an Instagram page as well. But I mean, that could be helpful for Megan too is, you know, we work with high school athletes. We're slowly going down, even though our focus has been college, but really helping shape and create mental health leadership in student athletes so that we can then impact culture and make it more socially acceptable to be struggling with your mental health as an athlete. And then also really bridge the gap between your struggling and then the resources and the help that you need, which I guess brings me to your initial question of, you know, what would I advise to someone whose student or child is struggling with mental health?

27:07And I would say, I mean, the most important thing is ensuring that you create a space and a place where they feel like they can talk to you. I mean, that is like so number one because, yeah, how do you do that? I feel like building a safe, close relationship with your child or the student.

27:25Dr. Michael Gervais:How? How do you do that. How does your mom or dad try? Yeah. I really feel like my parents were also my friends and being judged is something no one loves experiencing. And when you're worried, you're going to tell something to a parent and they're going to immediately judge you, or they're going to overpower your ability to have any space in this conversation by their emotions about it. So if you're like, well, I can't tell my mom, I'm depressed because my mom will freak out and my mom will be worried sick and my mom won't sleep at night. And then now I have to worry about my mom and I don't even have the space for that because I am depressed.

28:04Dr. Michael Gervais:So I better keep it together. Keep it private. Yeah. I do think there's something healthy about making sure your anxiety doesn't become your child's anxiety and not - Let me pause. It will. Yeah, it will. It does. We give what we have. If we have intolerance or frustration, and anxiety, we give that. If we have love and benevolence and excitement and opportunity and whatever, we give that. So same for me too. There's no one immune from that. And I don't have kids yet, but I could totally empathize with like, that's so human. My mom always says that to me. She's like, just wait till your kid's struggling.

28:41You think you're not going to worry. So then, okay, can we find them the right support person that you as the parent trust. You love the credentials. You like this person, all that's there. And your child feels like they can trust them and they're getting the right type of support for their situation. And you're encouraging that and you're not judging it. And you are not making them feel badly that they need a therapist or a counselor.

29:06Dr. Michael Gervais:I'm going to tell you one of my favorite moves. Like when I was, so I don't see many athletes or folks right now, like maybe eight a year at this point. But this was when I was early and I was seeing like, you know, 40, 50 clients a week. And it was like, I was cutting my teeth for sure. I loved doing this. And I think just this initial question set or framing helped the athletes more than maybe I did in any sessions. A mom comes in with a young child, let's say it's a, I'm thinking of a gymnast in this case. And it was mom and dad actually with a gymnast. And they were super respectful. They're really eager.

29:45Dr. Michael Gervais:You know, they were struggling because their kid was struggling. So there's the four of us in the room. And this was, again, first 15 minutes of the conversation. And so we're talking about the kid and I'm asking the kid some questions and just kind of having a balance. So we're not talking about this person that's not there. I go, oh, now here's the move. I go, oh, okay. I totally get it, guys. I go, I'm so happy you guys are here. I'll just make up a name. Joanna. This work is actually not for you. This is for your parents. And Joanna's eyes got big and she started crying. She goes, wait, it's not my fault.

30:22Dr. Michael Gervais:I said, no, you're doing great. Mom and dad got some stuff to work on. We'll come get you in a little bit. We go in the lobby and just kind of hang out and there's some books or whatever. So she goes out and I turn to mom and dad and I goes, look, you're making her the patient. it's you guys you're creating the ecosystem in this family i said you guys want to change like and grow and they're like yeah of course okay great we're gonna start with you guys she's brilliant she's figuring it out she's going for it she's the one that's taking risks she's the one that's like say all right there's nothing broken but there's some work to do do you guys want to do the work and they're like yeah okay good so we do a little bit of work that session bring her back in she's kind of like well what has just happened and i said look as a family we're all going to do some work here.

31:08Dr. Michael Gervais:And she's like, oh, okay, good. And she looks at her parents like, is this okay? Because I thought I was the one that was... She's like, I could never call you guys out, but I knew it. I knew it. You guys were... And she felt broken. She felt like she was the patient and it was actually the unit, the system. I'm glad those parents were receptive. I can think of parents that would be like, screw that. We're going to a different therapist that tells me I'm right and my daughter's wrong. Uh-huh. Right. So yeah, good. Yeah. Let's keep it moving. Speaking of that... The Body Master is brought to you by LinkedIn Jobs.

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32:39Dr. Michael Gervais:Get started by posting your job for free at linkedin.com slash mastery. Again, that's linkedin.com slash mastery. Terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by AG1. Summer is here, at least for those of us in the Northern Hemisphere. You can just feel it though. Days are longer, pace picks up, and there's this sense of momentum that comes with the season. For me, that also means more travel. It's more early mornings, more late nights, and it's just really a schedule that isn't consistent as I'd like it to be. That's exactly when having a simple, reliable daily foundation, it matters.

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34:30However, there are a number of individuals I work with who are under immense pressure to perfect their craft to the point where I'm worried they're on the path to burnout before they even turn 16. Here's my twofold question. How can we tell the difference between healthy competitiveness and unhealthy pressure? And what are some warning signs that a young athlete may be experiencing burnout?

34:50Dr. Michael Gervais:Okay. Thoughtful question. Let's just first frame burnout. Burnout is that full exhaustion. It's not depression to our earlier conversation, but it's a full exhaustion that somebody's feeling. And technically it's reserved. It was originated, mostly reserved in the workplace. When you adopt that framing in a sport context and they are mentally, emotionally, physically exhausted, the remedy is like six months away as a starting place. Now in elite sport, we don't have time for six months of a hiatus. That kind of the field, the pack just kind of rips right by you if you're going to pull out for the most part, not always.

35:31Dr. Michael Gervais:And actually, as I'm saying that, I'm like, there's plenty of examples that I can think of right now in the last kind of say five years that have taken time off and it's been the best thing for them. And they are rewriting some of the rules. It's great. So this question, there's a model that came out of the 1990s from Canada called Long-Term Athletic Development, LTAD. It's worth researching for parents and coaches. There's phases that I have identified that demark, for the most part, an age bracket for the most appropriate type of training. Okay. So the first phase is you just want people to get active and just have fun, young kids.

36:08Dr. Michael Gervais:and like to make it, bring it home a little bit. Our son, we did like tumbling classes and just kind of moving around, that type of basic stuff. And remind me to come back to two types of teaching for parents and coaches. And then you're starting to teach them the fundamentals and you're trying to do it in a fun way, fundamentals. Then you're teaching them how to learn, how to follow kind of instructions. So now I think they're in the like age eight, somewhere in that range. Then you're teaching them how to train, okay? So that happens around age 12. This is where at age 12 in the US, most parents and coaches are actually getting them into competition mode, which is the next phase.

36:53Dr. Michael Gervais:So it's the kind of movement, fun, learn how to learn, learn how to train, and then learn how to compete. And we are trying to get ahead of it. So we are putting these 12, 13, 14-year-olds in these high competitive experiences. and when you ask parents, like, what do you think? Like, how's it going? Oh, you gotta, they gotta start early. The research on this is that, no, they should be learning how to train first, how to do physical conditioning, mental conditioning, how to train to be a good teammate. All of that stuff should be coming first. And then you layer on top of that base how to compete, deep focus, how to commit, how to kind of stay in it a little bit longer than other people might be able to.

37:35Dr. Michael Gervais:And that's what a competitive spirit is. how to design and develop your ideal competitive mindset. I can go on and on and on. So we are shorthanding this training segment for competing. And we've widened the window of competition when developmentally, they're not quite ready for that. The irony of this is that it comes from the parents wanting their kids to succeed and be successful, like so badly that they're like, if I don't get my kid competing in kindergarten and their third grade, like whatever, they're like, I'm doing a disservice to my kid when really you're actually, you're harming your kid.

38:11Dr. Michael Gervais:You're right. Most parents, most coaches, youth coaches, they want to do good for their kids. Yeah. That's why they're in this. They have the best intentions. Yeah. So honor the learning phase, honor the training phase, honor the competing phase, right? And do those appropriately. And then after that, once you get up into like early twenties, 19, I think it's 19 is where the threshold starts. Like that's where you're really focusing on winning according to this model. And I put a line through that one. I totally put a line through that because if the aim is to win and I can hear my wife's aunt saying, yeah, the reason we compete is because we keep score.

38:48Dr. Michael Gervais:Like, and I put a line through that, like, not for me, what I'm trying to develop for my son, for myself, for folks I work with is a love affair with figuring out getting better. A love affair with like this thing, this ball, this field, this whatever it might be, trying to figure out this angle, that angle, how to be a great teammate, how to have the right resources, how to let go of mistakes, how to come back because this phase is not going to be forever. So I need to learn how to compete within myself to compete to be a great teammate, compete towards like unlocking the stuff that I want to unlock.

39:24Dr. Michael Gervais:I'm so uninterested at this point in the win-loss thing. And I understand if I don't help a team win, I mean, the owner's still flying back on a jet and I'm in my dinghy rowing back by myself. I understand the business of this thing, but not yet, not for these young kids. It's not about that. Is it crazy for me to say that something Peter should do, I empathize with the school counselor who's seeing their students in a pressure cooker and being like, I just want to tell these kids like, hey, Rebecca, it's all going to be okay. If you don't get into an Ivy League school, shit, if you get held back a year, like that does not like mean your life is jeopardized.

40:11And that is how these kids feel. I remember because I was that kid. I remember feeling like, oh my gosh, I got a bad grade in my AP chem class. Why the hell was I in AP chem? I don't know anything about chemistry, but because I was like, I got to take an AP. I got to have APs. And I remember getting this bad grade on this test and actually having to leave school assembly because I thought that that grade is going to be the reason I can't get into this school. And then my life is totally derailed. And it's like, I just want to tell that girl, like, it will work out no matter what. You know what I mean?

40:42Dr. Michael Gervais:You know, in some respects, it's easy for you to say that because you went to one of the best universities on the planet. Like, it's hard to hear it from you because you've had so much success. Yeah. I'm going to tell you a different story. Okay. I want you to say that a lot, you know, and then to teach people. I probably haven't told this to you. I got a zero on my PSAT. I went surfing. I got a zero on my SAT. I went surfing. I went surfing. And I didn't have any options. So I had to go to junior college. If I didn't go to junior college, I think I would have, like, I would have had a lot of troubles in my life.

41:18Dr. Michael Gervais:I'm really thankful that my parents sat me down and said, listen, we didn't know how to help you here. So you got to get a job and get out, or you can still live here, but you got to go to a junior college. I was not ready to move out. So they gave me this kind of ultimatum. And that's not the route that is the narrative for kids now. But I'm telling you, as much as I can muster up the infatuation about this, thank goodness that the route I took was my route. So look, you don't have to go straight into a big name school to have it work out. I really like my life. Yeah. And so, and the Dean of Discipline at my high school pulled my wife aside.

42:02Dr. Michael Gervais:We've been dating since high school. She pulled my wife aside and said, hey, what is a nice girl like you? Like, he's not going anywhere. That type of thing. Like, you know, I want to encourage you to. So she wasn't able, No one really was able to see this thing, but I had to figure it out. And I'm saying right now, even to my son or whatever, I want the most optionality that people can have. And you got to work oftentimes for that optionality. And it's not over, though. I refuse to accept the conditions as final. Yeah. You know, and so. I love that story. I didn't know that about your past history.

42:39And I think that that's so powerful for people to see is like how brilliant you are and how amazing your career is. And let's put that into perspective with the parent today who would literally think it is the most embarrassing, worst thing to tell their really like small bubble of a private school that their kid's going to go to a junior college before they go to school. Like that is actually how they view it. And then I think back to what you said about me. Very true. I am successful, however you want to define it, or I define it with my current life. However, there were definitely times where like when I went on the TEDx talk stage and said, I've been depressed and I wanted to, you know, drive my bike into oncoming traffic.

43:19My parents said to me, are you sure you want to say that? Your future employers will see it. This will always follow you. You have no idea how they received. So I think it like comes back to this trust in yourself that like if you're a good person and you have a good work ethic, those two. Like, I find it like it's the pieces will fall in a way that you could try to keep making work, even if it's not the puzzle pieces that you think your parents and family like want you to put into the board, you know?

43:51Dr. Michael Gervais:I do. Yeah. And you've got to be active with it as best as you possibly can. Keep working it. You know, refuse to have it be final. Yeah. That idea. But yeah, like really cool. You're doing a massive service to folks saying, yeah, listen, behind the velvet rope of all the success, like there's been some real hard times. And it doesn't mean that you're not going to face hard times. You know, like there could be hard times in the future, but you've now got more tools. And so do I to be able to navigate that. And so this was not that long ago. My wife and I were having like a really honest conversation.

44:25Dr. Michael Gervais:And she says, Mike, I think you need to work on this. I was like, I think you're right. You know? And so I'm a work in progress. And I'm just super thankful that I know what the work is. And there's people that I know can hold me to a standard to do the work. So when my wife said to me, I think you need to do some work on this, what do you hear in that? What do you hear the work is? The issue is immaterial. But if I were to say to you, oh, have you been working on this? What is the work for you? Like currently what's something I'm working on? No, no, not what are you working on, but what is quote unquote the work?

44:58I think prioritizing that element of my life and ensuring that I'm being really intentional about it when it arises and I'm trying to course correct and like recalibrate it so that it can be no longer work I have to do.

45:15Dr. Michael Gervais:Yeah, that's it. Yeah. So it's like if there's something that is tripping you up, get in the way. If it's in a weight room and you're like, oh, it's my left shoulder. I know I need to do some rehab work or something on my left shoulder. Like you go to work on it and there's prescriptions for it and there's people that can guide you. Same is true for a broken heart in some respects or anxiety or depression or whatever it might be. we all have these tripwires the work begins with self-discovery go to work on yourself to understand yourself your blind spots to your best abilities your tripwires the things that you know set you down a path of i don't know self-critique or self-doubt or irritation or whatever the thing might be and then see if you can rehydrate the seeds that are a counteract to that.

46:03Dr. Michael Gervais:Because when you stop watering seeds, they die. When you water other seeds, they grow. So that's the work is to go in and do self-discovery. And then there's all these cool mental skills like self-talk and breathing and blah, blah, blah, blah. They're mechanical. We put a pin in the difference between coaches and teachers you wanted to explain or coaches and parents. No, two types of coaching. One is formal instruction and the other is guided discovery. So formal instruction is, let's say that you are going to teach somebody how to do a roll down a hill, a forward roll down a hill. Formal instruction is you would say, and I'm thinking of like a five-year-old, you would get next to him and you'd say, okay, tuck your chin down, put your hands in front of you, kind of get in a small little ball and then put the grass on the crown of your head and then roll, right?

46:49Dr. Michael Gervais:And you might do it in front of them so they could see it. Formal instruction. And then they would do it and they'd flop to one side a little bit and You'd say, no, no, no. Okay, come on back. We're going to do it again. Tuck your chin. Now have your chin touchers and then put your hands right here, just like this. Okay, great. And formal instruction. Formal instruction will help you get good at something relatively quickly. It's good. Structured. Guided discovery is you would say to that same, you know, three or four year old or whatever, five year old, you say, okay, let's roll down the hill and you go first.

47:19Dr. Michael Gervais:And they go, this hill? And it's like, seems kind of big to you. Yeah, however you want to go down. So you don't show them, you don't teach them, and they just figure out how to go. It might be like a log on the side, and then the next one you might say, okay, let's do it differently, but you don't show them. And then they roll kind of head over butt, and they do it like that. You might come back up the hill again and say, okay, try it a different way. So it's just giving them all of the discovery mechanisms. That kid takes longer to do a forward tuck roll, but now they have all of the dimensions.

47:52Dr. Michael Gervais:They've discovered what an off-access role, a log role. It is such a rich platform to build from. Yeah, they built courage in themselves. They figured out how to try something new. Yeah. And they've got all the physicality of different movements instead of like, no, no, no, that's not quite it. Do it again to get it right. And so I want to do like an 80-20. Like 80 % of the time, you've got a discovery. It's asking you questions. It's pulling it out. You know, it's already in you kind of helping you discover the stuff that's already true for you. And then 20 % like some formal instruction. I love that.

48:27I think that's helpful for everyone to think about. I've never heard guided discovery said like that. And I really like it.

48:33Dr. Michael Gervais:I want to take a second here to tell you about a morning routine that I've been using for years. For me, it's a great way to switch on my mind, to ready myself, to take on the day. So before I check my phone, my emails, market updates, or text threads, I choose how to start my morning. That's always in my control. That's always in your control too. This is the same morning mindset routine that some of the world's top performers across sport, business, and the arts are using. The best part? It only takes about 90 seconds to do. So just head over to FindingMastery.com slash morning to download the audio guide for free.

49:08Dr. Michael Gervais:Again, head to findingmastery.com slash morning to get your morning mindset routine. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. I have spent my career studying the mind, how to develop it for high performance, how it can be great in high stress conditions, and what helps it stay sharp over the long arc of life. And one of the things I've learned is to pay close attention when science starts pointing somewhere new. Creatine is one of those places right now. We've known for decades what it does for the body. strength, power, recovery, it's about well studied as any supplement out there. But the work emerging on creatine in the brain is what has my attention.

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50:19Dr. Michael Gervais:It's made in a pharmaceutical facility, six stages of testing, four independent agencies, and it's NSF certified for sport. When you take something every day, that level of quality compounds. Go to livemomentus.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery for up to 35 % off your first order. That's live, L-I-V-E, momentous.com slash finding mastery with the code finding mastery. Roberto submitted a question about vulnerability. My favorite said, this is a tricky one for athletes and parents to navigate during recruitment to the college process and or while on a college roster. Will a prospective coach view this as a sign of weakness or a red flag?

50:59recruiting is a very competitive space and every athlete is looking for an edge over the next one roster spots are coveted for the big name schools will an open transparent honest sharing moment about the challenges and pressures of competing end up costing me about it what do you think i completely understand where robertro's coming from because i remember when i did give my tedx talk as a sophomore at usc thinking oh wow i have two more years here of like playing against girls and shaking their hands. What if in the film room, they say, let's all serve number four. She's got anxiety. Like that crossed my mind.

51:34I'm like, they're like, well, that girl says she gets nervous on server Steve. So let's serve her. But I, at least for me, this is where maybe I take more of like a, like a woo woo holistic approach to this. But I'm just like, Roberto, if you feel like you're living your most authentic life by sharing your story, and it may make someone think something different of you. and it may affect, which I don't even think I believe. I think no matter what the big name schools you mentioned, if you have the best numbers, you're getting recruited. They don't care if you like think the earth is flat and have like, you know, they don't care.

52:12Because you're getting it done. Yeah, they don't care. They just want you to get it done. And so I always tell myself -

52:15Dr. Michael Gervais:But you've got a body of work to show that you can get it done. Yeah, exactly. So I personally don't think that if you were to share your mental health story on the internet and you were good enough at your sport to even be recruited by the school in the first place, that it would affect, that it would be the difference. And if in for some crazy chance it was, then I don't think that's the school that's meant for you. Because for you to flourish and be your most full self in this lifetime, you should be attracting the things that want you as you are. That last line is rad. And there's still a taboo around psychology.

52:45Dr. Michael Gervais:There's still a taboo around quote unquote mental health. I think the phrase mental health is actually problematic in and of itself because it does not indicate vibrance and zest and fire for life. Mental health stands for like this, I don't know, like, are we okay? So there's a branding problem here. There's still a hangover from the generation before me. I'm Gen X and what are you? I am right on the cusp of millennial and Gen Z. So it depends on the day. I was born in 1997. So someone let me know. So the generation before me was the boomers and they had this taboo about psychology. It's that there's nothing strong about going and working on your mental health.

53:25Dr. Michael Gervais:It's changing now. It's totally changing. And first and foremost is that if you are going to bring this up in the college recruiting or mention it online or whatever, I'm going to follow your lead and say, if I'm on the other side of it and I am recruiting this athlete and they talk about something that's been meaningful and significant and it still has a little bit of taboo, which people like you, Victoria, are changing. Thank you. I'm going, oh, okay. So there's some risk involved. This person understands the risk. They've been through it. That's called social risk. There's like five or six types of risk, physical risk, social risk, intellectual risk, moral risk.

54:05Dr. Michael Gervais:There's a couple more. And this is social risk. If this person in front of me can take a social risk and do it for a noble cause, for an honest, reasonable cause, oh, you know what? You know what I also know? this person is not going to be overwhelmed by FOPO, fair people's opinions. They are being real and honest, and the lights will not be too big because the lights represent the eyeballs, the critiques of others. So this person's like awesome and stable, and they've got the numbers to back it up in their body of work, like whatever their stats are. Oh yeah, kid, let's go. I love that it's a strength.

54:40A lot of coaches would think it's a blessing that a student athlete coming in knows potential problems they have and already works on them. Like, do you know how hard it is for coaches to convince these college athletes? Like, can you work on this thing? And they can't even see it yet because of like the lack of, you know. Yeah.

54:55Dr. Michael Gervais:And I'm going to totally back what you said is like, if a coach can't see that or recruiting folks can't see that, they might represent the biggest brand university. They might be the top 10 university or whatever. That's not your spot. That ain't your coach. That is not your place. You want someone just like you said, you want someone that sees you, understand you, get you, and then can take you further, take you deeper. Yeah. And that's the kind of coach you want to be around. So if you've got to hold back in that process, like, I don't know. I don't think the juice is worth the squeeze there.

55:23I feel you. Florence is a big fan of you and listened to your interview with legend Michael Johnson. And Florence said that really hit a nerve with me. So thank you for the interview. And the question is, how is it possible? Is it even possible to achieve the same sense of knowing? I have it in me to succeed in my field without the external, but without external validation. So when Michael was describing the moments before the race and how he learned to mentally prepare himself, the main element was that just knowing he could win it. So Florence is wondering, is it possible to achieve that without external validation?

56:00And do you have any suggestions for really getting to know oneself on a deep level the way Michael did?

56:07Dr. Michael Gervais:Amazing question. I know. They're so brilliant and smart. Thank you. Yeah. Okay, so Michael Johnson, one of the fastest humans ever to run the planet. Usain Bolt took his record at some point. And I don't know if you've had a chance to listen to it, but this conversation is so good. He has done so much internal work. He, again, is an emblem for doing the self-discovery work and having the mental skills to navigate high stress moments. Wow. Amazing. And he was the fastest in the world for a long time. He mentioned this part about being in the ready room. There's all that kind of pressure, stress, whatever, that is pretty natural to that.

56:41Dr. Michael Gervais:It is possible, by the way, to dissolve pressure. That is a possibility when it comes to the art of performing. But we're not talking about that yet. And he had this idea that he just, he'd done all the work physically, mentally, technically, and he had a knowing that he was going to win. And in that moment, I remember thinking, I don't understand this. So Florence, we're on the same page. Coach Carroll, head coach of the Seattle Seahawks, that he and I had a great run together. And he would say that that's the ultimate state, a knowing that you're going to win. And I would always say, coach, I don't think so.

57:15Dr. Michael Gervais:I don't think the knowing is where we want to get to. The knowing that I'm a handful, the knowing that I'm going to stay in it no matter what, the knowing that whatever comes my way, I'm going to figure out how to adjust. The knowing that I'm a fill in the blank type of person, that type of knowing I can count on. that knowing that I can face down difficult things. I know this about myself, that I can face down difficult things and give it everything that I have. That's all I need. I don't need to try to know an unknowable. The outcome is an unknowable. I actually want that to be part of the mystery.

57:53Dr. Michael Gervais:I want that to be part of the unknown, unfolding excitement of the whole thing. I wanna know that I can navigate myself in this environment to my best abilities. and I am, again, less interested in the outcome, but as many opportunities in my life as I possibly can that bring me to that high art way of expressing. So I am not interested in knowing. Florence, we're on the same page on this one. So I think it's really about knowing who you are and then adjusting. I'm so happy that that was your answer because the same thing popped into my head is something April Ross, Olympic beach volleyball gold medalist once said to me on my former podcast was, I know that no matter what happens, I will have my back.

58:39And that's always stuck with me. And so Florence, you actually, you can never know. Even Michael never really knew. It's a fun thing to say, but hey, there had to have been a race that maybe didn't go the way that he thought, but you could step up to the line and know win or lose, I will have my back. And that's actually, I think, confidence that gives you the freedom to play great league.

59:00Dr. Michael Gervais:You know, I oversimplified this. Take magic for a story arc. There's at least two types of folks. Maybe there's more. I don't want to be kind of reductionist by any means. But there's folks that are in the middle of a magic show and they just want to be excited and like, oh, the mystery of it. And this is so fun. They know that there's an art to this, right? And then there's the other person that's like, oh, I'm going to figure, I'm going to find the answer. There's no chance. Oh, did you see his finger? He did it with his finger. He put, I don't know. There's something about being kind of in the throes of the unknowing that is really fun and exciting.

59:33And I'm not saying be naive like the magic show, kind of just be naive with the whole thing.

59:38Dr. Michael Gervais:But just love the unknown. Yeah. If you are overwhelmed by the unknown and you're looking for the absolute certainty and knowing, you are working against the nature of reality. And would it be okay if I tie that up to the very first thing we talked about, which is understanding who you are? because I found that the thing that's actually brought me the most peace with trying to answer this question of who am I is that there is no words that can follow that question. When I put myself in a box, I just freak out because I'm like, oh, I am a, okay, if I'm not going to say I'm a volleyball player because we're not identifying with sport, then that means I am a daughter, I'm a wife, I'm all these things.

1:00:17But you're also just like labeling and you're associating with other identities that are equally going to be as devastating if they don't work out as it would the sport. So it's like, we are unlimited beings. And to the point that you were just saying, like, all we can know are our traits, that we are hardworking, that we don't bail on ourselves, that we love deeply, that we are kind, that we always try to do the right thing. And then those things manifest in whichever avenue we're in that day. Yeah.

1:00:47Dr. Michael Gervais:I think that idea that we are all those things and so much more, that you are a daughter and so much more. Right. You are an athlete and so much more. You could go that direction or you can go the other, I think where you're going, which is like, I don't even want to put labels to any of it. Like there's something here I can't. I am dot, dot, dot. Yeah, dot, dot, dot. The ellipsis of all. So yeah, very cool. And Florence, I hope we answered your question. I think you did. Yeah. I like that one a lot. I'm going to keep that one with me. We're getting close to the end here. Curtis asked, how do you deal with imposter syndrome?

1:01:17Point blank period. Point blank period. Curtis said, tell me, Dr. Mike. Yeah.

1:01:21Dr. Michael Gervais:When folks come in and they say, you know, I've got this worry that people are going to find out, you know, that, I don't know, I kind of got lucky in the interview or if they only knew how hard I'm working to keep it all together, that they would know that like, I'm not that talented. I'm just a hard worker. And like, I'm afraid they're going to find out. I say welcome to the club me too like I understand that and I don't feel like as much of an imposter as I once did but also I'm looking to be on the edge where I I'm in the rooms in a places where I don't know and so it's changing for me so at some point welcome to the club you are going a little bit faster than you know how to ski and it's a it's a little scary on the sail cold so are most people.

1:02:10Dr. Michael Gervais:The thought that they over there have it all together and I over here by myself don't, it's not honest, but it feels that way. And just welcoming people to the club, like I'm the custodian of this club, like it's not how this works, but there is something welcoming about like, yeah, I understand that too. And then the other piece is go back to this idea of having a love affair with what you don't know, like really being enthralled with like how things can unlock and what would happen if, and is that possible? Do you think if we did A, B, and C, could that maybe be a possibility? That's really exciting.

1:02:43Dr. Michael Gervais:I wanna be teammates with people that don't pretend like they have it all together, don't show that way, but they are committed to figuring it out. And that's the, I think, the major anecdote for imposter syndrome. Be honest with yourself. You're not expected to have it all together. Who actually cares what they think of you? FOPO, fear of people's opinion, the greatest constrictor of your potential, my potential. And I just think it's not that big a deal anymore. And so if you're really struggling with that, I don't want to make light of it. I'm just saying that I think it's normal. Most people have it.

1:03:18I mean, so much is diffused when you call out the thing you're afraid people will think of you. I remember I once spoke at Harvard and my imposter syndrome was like, oh my God, I couldn't even like get into school here. Why do they want to hear from me? What could I say? Everyone in This room's going to be smarter than me. Like I had such imposter syndrome. And what was the very first thing I said when I stood in front of this room of people to speak? So I have to be honest. I don't know why you guys want to hear from me. Like you guys go to Harvard and they all start laughing. And right there, it's like, I've called out, hey, I'm a little insecure.

1:03:51I'm not as smart as you. I've said it. I've owned it. I feel weight off my back. Like I'm not walking in there. I don't like fake it till you make it. That, I don't like that advice.

1:04:00Dr. Michael Gervais:That idea will not hold at Finding Mastery. Yeah. So just, you know, I think Curtis trying to own it a little bit like Dr. Mike described. And then this is our last question before we'll close. And then I have a question to kind of round out this conversation. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Fatty 15. Okay, let's talk about longevity. Longevity is much more than simply adding years. It's about maintaining health and a zest and a vitality and enhanced performance as you age. And that's why I'm excited about Fatty 15. It's an award-winning supplement. It's powered by C15, which is the first essential fatty acid discovered in over 90 years.

1:04:40Dr. Michael Gervais:Okay, so C15, it's a geroprotector. What that means is it helps to slow biological aging by strengthening your cells, basically protecting them from damage. You can think of it like kind of like a 401k for your health, where you're investing in cellular quote-unquote resilience. And I dug into the research on the relationship between C15 and heart health. I love what I saw. Fatty15 is on a mission to optimize your C15 levels to help you live healthier, longer. Get 15 % off your 90-day subscription starter kit by heading to fatty15.com slash findingmastery and use the code findingmastery at checkout.

1:05:19Dr. Michael Gervais:That's fatty, F-A-T-T-Y, 15.com slash findingmastery. Start investing in your long-term health today. So this last audience question is from Sally. What advice would you give to coaches to make sure they're taking care of their players' mental health? First and foremost, I don't think, I mean, please, somebody chin check me on this thing, but I don't like to give advice. I like to work from first principles, share those first principles. And then maybe more importantly, I like to ask a lot of questions. So in this case, I would ask the coach a ton of questions, not like gotcha types of questions, But I'd say, hey, coach, I just want to say thank you for investing in my kid.

1:06:01Dr. Michael Gervais:Like, he loves this. You know, he's really looking forward to this year. How important is the mental part of the game for you? And the coach is going to say something. And whatever the words are, your job is to figure out if there's an energy or an intention that's matching those words. All the spidey scents are up when something is said but not believed. So I'd ask the questions and then I'd poke around a little bit. Like, is there mental training involved in all, in any of your practices? No, you know, I read some books, but I'm not really sure what to do about it. Then I could maybe say, oh, you know, something like asking them for three goals that are 100 % under their control before each practice.

1:06:35Dr. Michael Gervais:I found that to be a really useful practice if this is me having the conversation. I like that. Like being vocal to my teammates. 100 % under your control. Running to every drill. 100 % under your control. And keeping a positive attitude this entire practice. 100 % under your control. Love it. Yeah. Scoring, not. Acing, not. home runs, double bases, those are not, they're good. There's nothing wrong with those, but you want to put your kids in a power alley and controlling the things that are in their control is actually what mastery is about. So that's something super mechanical and small, that little practice, but it's a really nice practice.

1:07:13Dr. Michael Gervais:I would just ask questions, but not as an inspection, as a curiosity. And then if there seems like there's some opening, then I might suggest like, Let's say I wasn't trained. There's this book that I've really enjoyed. And Mind Gym is a great book for coaches. And so I would suggest that coaches, it's a small book. Gary Mack wrote it. You read like a page and a half a day and they're small pages. These are not full-size pages. And ask your kids to do the same. And they show up at a practice and you say, hey, we're all on play with fire chapter. It's like two pages, a page and a half. Joey, what do you got?

1:07:49Dr. Michael Gervais:Johnny, what do you got? And so that is a really simple way just to introduce some ideas. I love that so much. Finally, I think everyone listening to this or watching this, they're watching it on their phones or on the computer. They've got headphones in and social media is a huge part of everyone's lives. And I think it also impacts, of course, the youth and young athletes, young kids growing up. So if we had to close this conversation kind of coupling a lot of what we've talked about today and also relating it to the effects and impact of social media, are there any skills or daily tools you could offer to parents and coaches trying to ensure that their kids don't get impacted too negatively by social media?

1:08:37Dr. Michael Gervais:I do not have an answer. It's the right question. I will tell you what we're doing at my family. My son's 17. He still does not have social media. How is that? Is he isolated at all from like his friends? No, we gave him Snapchat when he was like 16 or something like that, you know, and because there was a communication type of thing and like, I don't know, he didn't really use it. They don't really use it anymore. They text and text, text is more of a way. He does ask probably, I don't know, I'll say four times a week. Hey, mom, can I look at my Instagram? So he's curious and he'll respond that way.

1:09:14Dr. Michael Gervais:But it's like in a car ride or it's like for 10 minutes. It's on mom's phone. So you have his Instagram account exists on his mom's phone? On his mom's phone, yeah. And so it might sound to some like it's super controlling or whatever, but the data is uber clear. Brain is not designed for that type of stimulation. and psychologically. So I'm talking about cognitively, we are not designed. Psychologically, we are not designed to see everybody else's highlight reel. It's a dishonest representation of people. So the harm does not outweigh what we can manage. I would be so interested in reading. I believe you, and I'd love to read.

1:09:53I'm sure people listening would too. I don't know if you guys are able to put in like some of the studies or the things that have made you feel so confident about these choices because I would love to learn. Because we hear, oh, it's not good for them, but I'd love to see it. Because I mean, even today, nowadays, I was thinking Max and I watch a lot of TV at night. The minute we start having kids, like I don't want a kid watching TV five nights a week. And then I'm like, oh my gosh, that's a huge mirror in our faces that we stare at the screen five nights a week.

1:10:21Dr. Michael Gervais:It's different, different stages, different phases, like totally different. Jonathan Heights, his book. Okay, Jonathan Heights. Yeah, I'll send you a copy of it and I'll put the link in the show note, what he's done for, it's called The Anxious Generation, and what he's done from ground up research has been really important to understand his position in his research. And so he's done a really nice job outlining there. So much so that this is not uncommon at this point, but my son's school, it was three years ago, maybe, as soon as that book came out and the administrators read it, the headmaster said, yep, no social media, no cell phones on campus.

1:10:58Dr. Michael Gervais:Sorry. Love that. Yeah. So this is like as a freshman or sophomore. I can't remember. So it's really clear. Yeah. And there's also a subgroup of parents at our school that are like, yeah, me too. That's great. I did see this cool news piece where a group of moms whose daughters are all in a friend group got them all landlines. So they're like, if you want to dial numbers and pick it up and you want to talk to your friends and listen to them, go ahead, talk to them all day long, but I don't want you looking at the screen doing this. I thought that was a cool way to keep them social after school, but in a way that is like healthy technology.

1:11:33Dr. Michael Gervais:Have you seen, I don't know what generation is, but it's like going back to the flip phone. There's like a resurgence of that. Yeah, people going, getting like an old razor or something. There's no social media on there. It's like, I don't trust, that's basically, I don't trust my ability to be pulled by that dopamine. And so I'm going to design my life in a way that doesn't have the optionality to be at my fingertips. Totally cool. Yeah. So keep it away as long as you possibly can. And I think that you're in a better position for brain health and psychological emotional health. Well, it was a pleasure to get to facilitate this conversation through the questions from your audience.

1:12:09So thanks for having me.

1:12:10Dr. Michael Gervais:Listen, Victoria, I wanted to do this with you because you understand what it takes to invest in yourself, to be your best. You've been living it. You've been showing other people the way. I really wanted to do this with you. And Hidden Opponent is awesome. I want to celebrate that. Thanks. Can we drive people to that website and on social? I think it's honestly, if someone, if you're here still listening, you will love what we're doing at THO. Go to the Hidden Opponent on Instagram or our website. We're always posting about the latest news updates in the athlete mental health world. We are creating mental health leadership in student athletes around the country.

1:12:44I mean, if your kid is in high school or college, they could be a campus captain for The Hidden Opponent. So check us out.

1:12:52Dr. Michael Gervais:The Hidden Opponent. Thank you. And you know what? You and your husband are a force, Max Brown. Max, shut up. Yeah, you guys are a force. You guys are doing so much good and having so much fun. Congrats on your new place. Thank you. I appreciate it. And I'm just always honored anytime I get to collaborate with you in any way and get to talk to you. Let's do more. Well, it's been a handful of years now that we've been floating in the same ether. It's great. I love seeing your success. So congratulations on all of it. And hopefully our community kind of floods you. Hopefully some donations come in, you know, and some support in other ways as well.

1:13:27So that'd be great. Thank you again. Thanks, everybody. Next time on Finding Mastery, we're going back into the Finding Mastery Vault with Seth Godin, bestselling author, entrepreneur, and one of the most influential voices in modern business and leadership. Together, Seth and Mike unpack why leadership isn't about authority, why authenticity isn't always what we think it is, and how to stop letting the fear of other people's opinions dictate your life.

1:13:52Dr. Michael Gervais:Some conversations only become more relevant with time, and this is one of them. So join us Wednesday, August 12th and 9 a.m. Pacific, only on Finding Mastery. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify.

1:14:27Dr. Michael Gervais:We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. punch over to finding mastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors. And we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals at finding mastery.com slash sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same.

1:15:10Dr. Michael Gervais:So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend, and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your health care providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.