1043. Insights: Inside HSBC Innovation Banking UK’s future with CEO Emily Turner

12:51Emily Turner:Yeah, it's a balance. Like you say, it's a balance of speed of change and impact at scale, isn't it? And getting that intersection between the two of them and getting that right, you can do amazingly, you know, fast, innovative things that have such a huge impact for so many people. I've, back to the kind of consultancy side of things, I kind of made a conscious decision at some point to focus on the things that you've built rather than because I having worked at a big management consultancy, I had so many lovely PowerPoints, you know, so many lovely PDFs. But, you know, when you're kind of 30 years from now, when you're thinking about doing something else, I don't think you're going to be talking about those PowerPoints, are you?

13:27Emily Turner:It's the lives you've changed.

13:29David M. Brear:Totally. You know, I think when I think about the things that I'm most proud of, it's company, when I think about the number of people that are employed, for instance, by companies that I helped start and the lives of people's lives who have become fantastically successful financially on the back of that. It's those types of things that really matter to me. If I just go back, though, to what you said before about sort of the PowerPoints and that side, I think there's a real, I don't know if it's an irony or jumping off point when it comes to innovation in large institutions, because I'm very much in favor of building in public to your sort of point of get it in the hands of customers, do those things.

14:05David M. Brear:But what I think or what I've found to be successful is that you build in public when it comes to your customers and you build in private when it comes to the rest of your organization. And it's a very different way to think about things.

14:17Emily Turner:Sure. And talk a little bit about the difference there because obviously when you're, so the private part of that is about making sure you're getting alignment, that you're getting the momentum, that the culture shift is, because there's things that you're happy to admit publicly and there's things that you're not. And it's like a family, right? You know, actually, culture change is difficult and it's often, you know, messy. So, you know, doing that privately makes total sense, doesn't it?

14:42David M. Brear:Yeah, I mean, I think there's two points to it that I've, you know, sort of developed over time. So one is large institutions and particularly regulated financial institutions for very good reasons have immune systems. And those immune systems are against change, just like the immune system in my own body. And so that means that if you don't want the antibodies coming to prevent your change and keeping you on the path, you need to do things to inoculate yourself from that. So it's one is sort of understanding the immune response of the organization that you're in, trying not to prompt that immune response.

15:12David M. Brear:That's one part. I think the other part, and this one took me a long time, at large places, and this is true across different industries, and to an extent at smaller companies too, but I've found it more at large companies, there's people who are excellent at ideation and coming up with the idea, you know, where you should go, how to think about it. There's people who you need for execution. and they're great at execution. And then there's people who have the ability to say yes, which I contrast from people who have the ability to say no. And very rarely are those three gifts in the same human.

15:42David M. Brear:And to the point of building in private, it's very much also around making sure that you're going to the right people at the right time. There's tons of people who will be curious, who want to give you their ideas. But ultimately, if they can't say yes, if they can't execute, and if they're not the idea people, they might actually just be a no person and for now focus on the yes yeah yeah it's interesting

16:06Emily Turner:having got that wrong uh you know working at a big bank in the uk for a you know you learn that quite quickly don't you in terms of the the route in order to achieve things in order to make things happen don't you and then it almost the uh the breaking of that mold then becomes the new process it becomes the path doesn't it yeah and i mean i think you know one of the pieces of advice that i

16:26David M. Brear:give to founders today trying to work with big banks or large institutions in general, you should be asking people, who has the ability to make this decision? Do you have the ability to make this decision? And sometimes it can be uncomfortable if you're having a great conversation, people are taking meeting after meeting. Who needs to sign the contract? Who needs to say yes? What is that critical path? And being very clear on what that is.

16:48Emily Turner:Yeah. So I guess in that, I mean, I've definitely seen this as, I've seen great ideas sort of stop or great projects stop because that hasn't been followed. You must have seen that in your career as well.

17:00David M. Brear:Yeah, I mean, I've seen it many times.

17:04Emily Turner:It's hard, isn't it? Because you feel almost helpless to that change, even though you know the idea is great or it's not what they've done, it's the way that they've approached it, which has meant it's failed.

17:15David M. Brear:Yeah, well, and I think also, you know, it can be, I find it very hard to understand the difference between politeness and interest versus accountability. Sure. And so unless, for me at least, unless I ask, I don't know.

17:28Emily Turner:Yeah. Yeah, it's always interesting. So how can you help us make this happen? It's always an interesting ending point to it, isn't it? But obviously that transition from the US to the UK as well. I mean, have you found a difference in people's, you know, you say about the slightly odd British politeness sometimes that we have in these situations. But, you know, you having worked internationally, those cultural differences is often quite an interesting learning curve as well.

17:55David M. Brear:Yeah, I mean, I've, you know, I've chosen to work here for a long time now. I find I love living here. You know, I think we've got the benefit of time zones that I sort of talked about a little bit before, obviously rule of law. But importantly, you know, if we think about the largest capital markets in the world, if we're just focused on fintech, this is a place to be. I mean, fintech is by far the largest sector in the UK innovation economy. It means that when you talk to some of the brightest people in venture, in innovation, they will also have a sort of second specialty, if not a primary specialty, in fintech.

18:27David M. Brear:So for me, this is an awesome place to be.

18:29Emily Turner:Yeah. And I guess stepping out of one large organization to one even larger at that stage, HSBC, I mean, how did you prepare for that in terms of, you know, we talk about learning the culture, learning the processes. How did you approach that? It's like dating, isn't it? You've got to kind of figure out all of the weird and the wonderful to know whether that's a long-term thing, right?

18:52David M. Brear:Yeah, it's a good analogy. I haven't thought of that one before. But so I knew the previous CEO very well, and she was actually the one who called me about the job, Aaron Platt, who is exceptional. And so we actually spent a lot of time talking about the culture, talking about the fit. And importantly, you know, where is their heritage to build on and where are things to keep going with or to think in a different way? And I didn't, not by design, but you mentioned before sort of regulatory approval. So I'm in a role that required regulatory approval, which meant that I was in the door working with the team, with everyone knowing that I was going to be CEO, for a number of weeks before, from the end of February until early June, without the actual role.

19:35Emily Turner:That always feels like a weird process, doesn't it? Like, I feel like there should be some sort of process with a sword where you're appointed at the end of it or something, you know? Yeah, I mean, it needed some sort of something at the end, but also along the way, it was sort of like, am I an intern?

19:52David M. Brear:Am I, you know, what do I do? No authority. And what I hadn't realized was it was a great opportunity. So it forced me in a way that I was making sure, trying to, but it forced me in a way to slow down on decision-making, some of those things, because I wasn't in a position to do those. And then also really get to know people as individuals. and it was a great forcing mechanism. So anyone who's doing a large change, if you've got that time to spend with the team to see it operate, but where you actually can't make decisions and you take more time to understand the context and those types of things, it's very valuable.

20:26Emily Turner:Yeah, you often get a greater on-ramp there than just, you know, okay, what's the five things we need to solve for in terms of moving stuff forward? Yeah, I mean, that is good. And like I say, getting used to or getting ready for that level of change. And have you noticed since you were not quite the sword ceremony, but the point where the regulator is happy and they've, you know, they've done all the checks they need to, have you felt a change at that point as well?

20:51David M. Brear:Well, yeah. So, I mean, we don't really have sword ceremonies or swords in the office overall. I should probably be, you know, clear on that. Okay.

20:57Emily Turner:I think the regulator would have frowned a point there, actually.

21:00David M. Brear:Yeah, I think they would. We do use gongs when we win deals. So, you know, you do hear the sound of gongs pretty regularly. But, you know, I think it's, I joined this business as a scale up, right? I mean, we are a large, you know, when I think about sort of in the context of our clients, we have product market fit, we have scale, we have real competitive advantages. And the question is, how do we then go from here? And what does that sort of next phase of growth look like?

21:28Emily Turner:Very good. And actually, we'll talk about that in part two. So that is it for part one. But stick around because what we're going to be doing is warming up a little bit more on actually what it is that Emily's vision is for HSBC innovation banking in the UK. More broadly, what the UK scene is really doing now because there's been some interesting shifts and changes in the market. And really where she sees the next big opportunities and risks are coming from. So buckle up, guys. We'll be back with you in a second. Hey, folks, if you're anything like us, you're on the road constantly. Airports, hotels, conference centres, half the time the Wi-Fi feels as safe as shouting, my pin is 1234 across the departures lounge.

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23:29Emily Turner:Hey, folks, welcome back. We're going to be switching gears and looking ahead in this part of the show. We're going to be diving into Emily Turner's vision for HSBC Innovation Banking, the UK fintech ecosystem, and where she sees the next big opportunities and the biggest challenges really coming from. I mean, you touched on it a little bit before the break, but I mean, HSBC Banking UK, I mean, you guys have got a very unique proposition for the market. I've never really sort of talked to a company where the structure of knowing people's businesses is more of a focus. And that's amazing to see.

24:05Emily Turner:So that DNA, as you sort of referred to it, feels like it goes all the way back to, you know, the origins of the business, which I always kind of think with any financial services business, there was a really clear purpose when it was started. But it feels like that's as strong as ever. Talk to me a little bit more about that.

24:23David M. Brear:Yeah, I mean, it's... I think I've got the best job in HSBC and arguably, you know, in the city and financial services here. And it's exactly what you said. It's that I work at a business that's purpose built around our clients front to back with specialization all the way through. And where we're not, you know, yes, we are there to deliver lending products and transaction banking and all of those things and with distinction. But ultimately, what everyone comes in every day is for their clients to succeed. And, you know, even in some of my portfolio companies before, I would feel bits of this, but you feel this front to back of the entire business.

25:00David M. Brear:And it's, you know, it's an extraordinary place.

25:03Emily Turner:Well, and talk about that difference a little bit more, because obviously, when you think about, you know, SME banking, you know, often the banks are experts in banking, but they're not experts in people's businesses. So tell me a little bit more, because when it was first announced that you were going to take this role, I was like, that makes total sense. Because like, given your background, and you've done a little bit of all of the bits to make those bits, like you can, you talked about empathy earlier on, you can be deeply empathetic to the problems that you're facing when you're running a business, right?

25:35David M. Brear:Yeah, I mean, I think so. So let me bring it to life in one way, and then I'll come back to your question. So, you know, when I'm asked by be it a policymaker, a government official, you know, anyone, and we spend a lot of time in that space about what's going on, I'm never talking about banking regulation, what's in it for us. It's all about our clients. What do they need? What do they need to be successful? And specifically what I mean is, what does it take for people to be able to start companies, scale companies, exit companies in this country, right? Like that is what I mean pretty simplistically.

26:08David M. Brear:And then I'll see, of course, and given there are clients as well, what does it mean for the investors in those companies to be successful? And, you know, so I think we have a really prized and privileged position. And I, you know, and I don't take that for granted. And one part of that comes from the history, the DNA, the culture of the business. And, you know, for those of us, for those that don't know us, we effectively have three segments of the market that we cover. So one is we cover technology companies. Two, we cover tech life sciences companies. And three, we cover investors in the innovation economy.

26:38David M. Brear:And so who are investing in tech life sciences and beyond. So that's all we do. And like so many great companies, I think that by focusing on what we do, we can do that really well. But also by having scale, we see parts of the market that no one else can and then have insights around that. And so, and it's been, you know, a learning journey for me as I get to know the business, but also, you know, talking to clients, talking to key stakeholders in the market, talking to other colleagues at HSBC. What we have, I think, one part that's very different for us is we do a significant amount of convening.

27:11David M. Brear:And what I mean by that is, how do we help our clients put their hand on the scales if it's around regulation or regulatory friction, around access to talent, these types of things? How do we make sure that we do those? And so we only know that by not just saying, you know, help us understand, you know, your working capital needs or, you know, your inventory turns, but really, what do you need for your company? What do you need to go to market? So we spend a lot of time, for instance, with founder success and investor success and these types of things, which you wouldn't think of in a normal bank.

27:42Emily Turner:Yeah, and that feels almost like it's, we often talk about the difference between sort of products and services. You know, you guys are a service business in that regard in terms of the community and everything that you curate around that. It isn't just about financial instruments and giving somebody a financial product. It's the experience of being with you in that way. I mean, as far as, you know, you say you only do three things. You pick the three really interesting things, right? You know, as far as any economy anywhere, you know, they're the things that are fundamentally changing how the environment or the society works, aren't they?

28:17Emily Turner:So that's a pretty fun specialism to have.

28:19David M. Brear:It is. I mean, you know, I'm very lucky to be able to spend my days and be paid to spend my days with people who have already changed the world and who today want to change the world more and tomorrow want to change it even more after that. Yeah, it's a very awesome place.

28:35Emily Turner:And as you say, I mean, the UK market is shifting, you know, every day, right? Where there's something new happening or there's regulatory changes or, as you say, there's sort of strains and stresses in various different ways. I mean, that's an exciting thing, but also an interesting sort of threat, I guess, for your customers. So you guys staying ahead of that curve, I mean, like you say, you've got almost the obligation to continue that learning process, which is an amazing thing, isn't it?

29:07David M. Brear:Yeah. And I mean, you know, our aim is very much to be lockstep with our clients as they grow, as they scale, as they have various opportunities and challenges. And certainly being part of HSBC now, we can go global with them in a way that no other bank can.

29:21Emily Turner:And I guess to that point on the scaling bit, I mean, what are the challenges that you're particularly seeing for entrepreneurs that are growing those businesses or businesses that are growing today? Yeah, I mean, so I think, I largely don't think this is fintech specific, but if I just speak

29:36David M. Brear:to sort of startups and scale-ups across the UK and beyond, it's, so first of all, you know, it's access to capital. Second, it's, you know, access to talent. Third, it's access to customers and procurement is, you know, a big issue. But ultimately, this is a very fast-changing world and an area of, by design, high risk. And so being a founder is a hard job.

30:03Emily Turner:Definitely. With 10 years under my belt at 11FS, I can definitely say it's a hard job. Because the point you make on talent, talent is everything, right? If you can get those things right, you seem to sort of overcome most other challenges to a certain degree. But you never know until you know, though, on that one. So, but I guess, have you seen any particular differences, obviously having worked in other geographies as well, to here? Because I've always sort of found with, we did a, bizarrely, you talk about the financial crisis, we did a documentary talking about what happened since 08 here.

30:39Emily Turner:And actually the M25 is a weird moat. You know, we've got the regulators and we've got the Bank of England and we've got all of the banks and, you know, all of that ecosystem inside the M25. is quite rare, you know. So the UK seems like quite an interesting petri dish for fintech.

30:56David M. Brear:I think it is. I mean, it's interesting you make the M25 analogy because one of the things we've seen over the last few years in fintech and beyond is the growth outside of the M25. And so, you know, when we think about fintech in the UK, I mean, it is a London, London, London story, but you need to think about Cardiff, increasingly, Manchester, Edinburgh, because there's an ability to innovate in all of these places. And, you know, I think that's also very exciting.

31:19Emily Turner:Yeah. Yeah, I'm trying to fly the flag for Norfolk FinTech, but it's not catching it on, I'll be honest with you. Nobody wants that commute, so unfortunately. And in that ecosystem is the sort of collaboration between big incumbent organizations and startups. I mean, that's always an interesting sort of threat or opportunity sort of dynamic. I mean, how do you see that balance working? And you've sort of seen it being fostered on either side of that equation, I guess.

31:47David M. Brear:Yeah, so I mean, I think... I think overall that's generally improving across, you know, industries and geographies across the world as change is becoming more natural in many different places. And importantly, sort of historically not built here type of biases and things like that. We are seeing that erode in a very positive way in my view. But if I take it just to sort of my own lived experience at HSBC Innovation Banking UK, you know, so we have one company, Attler, who's one of our clients. If you don't know them, they're in the sort of modern treasury management space. We could see that many of our other clients were working with Adler.

32:25David M. Brear:And so because of the vantage point we're in with such a large portion of the market, but also, to your point, going beyond traditional financial services, what are the problems you're solving? Many of our clients are trying to solve for getting their tech, their engineering resources focused on their core business versus, say, building their financial infrastructure. And how do we optimize that time? Well, if you can work with an API-first treasury management system, you can deliver that plus a sort of distinctive experience and capability. Now we actually directly integrate and have joint clients that we go to market with.

32:56David M. Brear:So I think, you know, that's just one example where we're able to see where our client's going. What are they talking about as their problems? How can we deliver that in a new way?

33:03Emily Turner:Yeah, it's a balancing act at that stage, isn't it? Because how do you stay innovative and make things happen and balance risk and balance the sort of operational side of things as well? It goes back a little bit to what we said. It's, you know, everything would be easy if nobody had any customers. And the minute you've got loads of customers and loads of data, then actually the controls around those things are really, really important, aren't they?

33:27David M. Brear:Indeed. I mean, trust is a prerequisite and super important in this job.

33:31Emily Turner:Yeah. I guess, you know, as CEO, that must change the dynamics slightly, you know, for you as well. I know, obviously, in other things that you've done, you've, you know, you've been the person in charge, you've been running it. but the title is slightly, well, the regulator doesn't get involved in other titles, do they? So how have you found that change and have you enjoyed that sort of transition?

33:55David M. Brear:Yeah, I mean, I think from a career perspective, it was always something I had in mind of sort of, should I, could I? And it's been great. I, you know, I like to think I thrive in feeling accountable it's you know ultimately for me down to the people and if people in my team can succeed i feel like i've succeeded um and the title just emphasizes that and i know it's something we've

34:20Emily Turner:talked about before off uh off the pod but uh how do you sort of measure success in that because i know you know when you had that time sort of on that on-ramp it was something that you gave a lot of thought to because uh you know often uh you know the the spreadsheets aren't the only sign of it. And back to my point earlier on, it's not going to be the spreadsheet or the PowerPoint that you look back on. So how are you going to measure your success with this role?

34:44David M. Brear:Yeah. So I mean, I think...

34:46Emily Turner:Feels like a performance management appraisal suddenly, doesn't it? I didn't mean it to sound like that.

34:49David M. Brear:It is that time of year. So I think, you know, ultimately for us, you know, our aim is to be the undisputed leader, you know, commercial bank for the innovation economy in this market. And so one part of that is very much alpha. So how do we deliver distinctive products and services and with an emphasis on services to your point. But also, we very much want to put our hands on the scales for this market to grow. And so that's another part of it. But it's all of that. Today, the UK is the third largest venture market in the world behind China and the US, but with a lot of room to grow. How do we continue to close that gap and make it easier, better, faster as a place for capital, but also for a place for entrepreneurs and doers?

35:34Yeah.

35:35Emily Turner:And that's, I mean, that approach has a fundamental impact on the culture of the type of organization that you're running as well, right? Because people get out of bed for a very different reason than just, you know, not just a happy customer, but you're talking there about the customers of your customers and, you know, scale that up. And it has an impact on GDP of countries, you know, which is, that's a pretty cool thing to do.

35:57David M. Brear:Yeah, no, I mean, it's meeting people who have ambitions to change the GDP of where they live and importantly change lives, not just the people that work for them, but sort of customers, customers, customers. It's awesome.

36:11Emily Turner:Very cool. So you've got your feet under the table now. You've been given the approval. Where do you see the next three to five years going then? There's a lot of changes in the technology space. There's lots of regulatory changes. There's government changes and all sorts of stuff. So how do you think this is? How's it all going to pan out?

36:29David M. Brear:Yeah, I mean, so I'm an optimist, as I said before. And, you know, so I think that this market is going to continue to grow. I think that we're going to see that across all stages of growth. I think what we saw from Revolut, you know, last year, but, you know, we will, you know, there's a lot of very highly valued fintechs and growth come here. You know, so for me, this is about continuing to deliver on that value proposition of being a great banking partner, but also pushing the market overall. And then I think it's a question of, you know, how do we encourage scaling cross-border? And as many, many businesses try to go cross-border, how do we be there for that?

37:04Emily Turner:Yeah. And I guess that brings a sort of a distinction between, I mean, innovation, you know, you've got a dirty word for a long time, but there's sort of a balance there between things that are actually transformative, aren't they, or just sort of nice little innovations. And how do you sort of, you know, in all of the roles that you've seen, you must have a lot of things come across your desk. So like, ready, reckon it. Like, what's your talent there?

37:28David M. Brear:Yeah, so I mean, I think, if I just take it back to us, so HSBC bought a HSBC Innovation Banking coming up on three years ago. The transaction was financially very lucrative just thereafter. And then since then, we've paid a few hundred million in dividends to our shareholder, and we've shown the strategic fit. On the back of that, confidence across HSBC has grown as well as investment, and we're now in 10 markets. So you can see sort of the big changes there, which is not getting to your question, but I just sort of give that as sort of, you can see the pace of change, you can see the confidence, you can see the investment, and you can see the ROI on that.

38:00David M. Brear:When I think about sort of transformative change versus not, I guess I struggle a little bit. You know, every trillion dollar business at some point was a billion dollar business. Every billion dollar business was a million dollar business. And so for me, it's about just that relentless pursuit of, you know, delighting your customer, delivering something of value, and then continuing to challenge yourself for more.

38:25Emily Turner:Yeah. It's interesting that you say, we, and, you know, I've asked that question to a lot of different people and actually when you sort of like, you know, Patrick Collinson or, you know, Bill at Standard Charter and the answer is quite similar and people always think it's going to be something that there's like some sort of like, you know, how you make gold kind of moment. But actually it's exactly as you say. It is a, you know, solve a problem for a customer, get the permission to solve the next one. And, you know, hopefully you've done something that can scale to a level where you're really having an impact on people's lives.

39:01Emily Turner:But it's interesting, you know, the old saying of like common sense isn't that common. You know, it feels like that sometimes.

39:09David M. Brear:Indeed. I mean, behavior change is hard.

39:12Emily Turner:Very, very. And having, you know, seen it for, you know, many years, then I know we obviously always sort of say, you know, digital banking is 1 % finished, but it feels like this journey is so much more ahead of us than it is behind us, doesn't it?

39:25David M. Brear:Indeed. I think it's, you know, we can see it more easily, I would say, in sort of consumer fintech side, but on enterprise fintech, it doesn't even feel like we're 1 % finished. I think we'd have to measure that in basis points.

39:36Emily Turner:100%. Yeah. So I guess the, we talked a little bit earlier on around the sort of, it's not just what you're doing, it's the way that you do it. something that I've always really enjoyed. You're a direct person, but you're very empathetic. And I always enjoy conversations that we've had in the past. Building that type of culture, you know, being innovative, but asking, you know, stupid questions out loud because they might not be stupid. Like, how do you sort of build that type of culture within an organization of that scale?

40:08David M. Brear:Yeah, I mean, I often talk about trying to be 51 % right. And what I mean by that is in almost all of our jobs in financial services, you have imperfect information. And being so open, my attempt to articulate that sort of 51 % is to make it very acceptable to be wrong a lot of the time. And I think you just have to live it every day. So it's saying things like, I'm going to start with a terrible idea because the aim is to make it better. or I want to be 51 % right. And I think you just continuously do those things and then celebrate as you get better.

40:48Emily Turner:Yeah. I mean, it's, yeah, starting that end rather than I'm always right and, you know, them being proved wrong is a, it's a hard place to live in that, isn't it? But I think that that's an interesting point from a leadership perspective as well, because you're creating the space for other people to be wrong, not just yourself, aren't you?

41:05David M. Brear:Yeah. And I mean, I think as long as you're clear on what your values are and that those are the red lines, you know, and, you know, we've talked about trust already here, having the trust of our clients is the most important thing. That's, you know, anything that would erode that trust are things that you need to surface. And then there's a lot of degrees of freedom within that.

41:23Emily Turner:Yeah. And then it's a behaviors conversation more than anything else, isn't it? So I guess we're going to rapidly run out of time. So as the months and quarters go by, you'll definitely have to come back and talk to us more about the progress you're making and the things that you're seeing in the market. But I guess to wrap us up, is there sort of one piece of advice or one thing you've seen in your career that would stand out that you would give to founders or innovators or somebody who's struggling in a bank now and is like, you know, how do I start making the scale of change you've done? What would be the advice you'd give to people?

41:57David M. Brear:I'm a big fan of work joy. And what I mean by that is, you know, I'll speak for myself, but I know it's true of so many people. We spend more of our waking hours at work with people we work with than a lot of other things in our life. So if you don't get a pretty good balance of trade on joy from that, it's not worth it and so as opposed to thinking about sort of what are the things that you know get you more successful make you more money think about the things that make you happy and then focus on those yeah

42:21Emily Turner:that's great because it's if you've got to put the amount of effort in that you do you've got to love doing it haven't you it's going to feel like work unfortunately isn't it

42:29David M. Brear:but it starts to feel less hard yeah if you love it

42:32Emily Turner:definitely I completely agree with that all right we are going to have to wrap up today's discussion though so a massive thank you Emily for coming in and joining us in the studio today Where can people learn a little bit more about you and all the great work you're doing?

42:45David M. Brear:So you can find us on our website or on LinkedIn. And then also, you know, if you're in the innovation economy, chances are you'll see us in an event or around town. But any of those work.

42:56Emily Turner:Very good. As for me, you can always find me mostly lurking on LinkedIn these days. So thank you so much for listening, everybody. If you like what you heard, follow the podcast. And don't forget to leave us a review. It helps us make it better and helps other people find the show as well. As always, if you want to join in the conversation, you can find us on pretty much every social media channel. Just search for 11FS or Fintech Insider. Or if you really fancy it, email us on podcasts at 11FS.com. Thank you very much for listening, everybody. Goodbye.

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