Why Free-to-Play Marketing Failed for Real Money Gaming

0:00This show is brought to you by the Global Talent Co, a marketing leader's best friend in these times of budget cuts and efficient growth. We help marketing leaders find, hire, vet, and manage amazing marketing talent for 50 to 70 % less than their U.S. and European counterparts. To book a free consultation, visit globaltalent.co. Hey, everybody. Thank you for listening. My name is Andres Figueira, and I'm going to be your host for the day. I'm located in Buenos Aires, Argentina, and this show is brought to you by the Global Talent Company, a company that's connecting top remote professionals from Argentina, South Africa, and all around the world with leading tech companies worldwide.

0:40So if your team is looking to hire world-class talent and just looking for somebody to add to your team, just head on over to globaltalent.co and see how we can help. And also with me today, I have Nancy McIntyre, Chief Executive Officer at WorldWinner, a company that is the most recognized and trusted skill games technology platform. And it's a brand for players who want to play to win. So Nancy, it's great to have you here on the episode. How are you doing? Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to it. Yes, we're very excited. I can say that I am an avid gamer and I looked up what WorldWinner was before this.

1:19And just so that we can get the audience a bit more in context of what it is that you do and what World Dinner is, would you be able to elaborate a bit about what you guys are? Yeah, World Winter is a 25-year-old skill gaming platform. And what that means is that we deliver games that are based on skill that a player can play head-to-head or in a multiplayer format in real cash tournaments. So we are for people who love playing video games and love the potential for winning real cash and real prizes. We've actually priced out over$2 billion in the time that we've been around. And we have about 30 games across our platform that range from Wheel of Fortune to Scrabble to Boggle to card games, etc.

2:11etc. So no matter what kind of gamer you are, we have games for you and tournaments for you that are appealing. Wow, this is amazing. So this is a way that people who really like games, no matter which game it is, as long as it's on the WorldWare platform, but a way they can monetize by playing them? Yeah, actually, you can either play head to head or you can play in multiplayer tournaments. And the way that it works is, say it's a dollar tournament, I put a dollar in, My opponent puts a dollar in, we play a tournament, and at the end, a prize comes out the other end. So every tournament is a cash tournament.

2:49So I'm paying an entry fee. And depending on the entry fee, I have the potential to win a prize that could scale from a specific prize or a progressive prize, much like if you go into the casino and you play a slot machine that has a progressive prize. We also run a range of tournaments that have progressive prizes. So the more entry fees there are, the more prize I can win as a player. And we're saying all of our products are skill matched. So that means I am going to play against a player who has the same level of skill as me. So it's always completely fair. We have a proprietary fair matching system.

3:32And so you as a player can be guaranteed they're going to play against somebody at the same skill level and have the best possible chance of winning. Wow, that is so cool. And I know in at least the games I play, which aren't any of world winner, but I do know that matchmaking is a whole thing in and of its own because it can get a little bit harsh for players who are just starting to be matched up with, I don't know, some veteran player that's been playing the game for like five years and it can be a bit unfair. So it's so cool that you have that proprietary matchmaking technology. And Nancy, I heard big names such as Boggle, such as Scrabble.

4:10How do you guys determine what games to add into your wallet of games? Or how do you come about that process? Yeah, that's a great question. Everything at WorldWinter starts with the fun. Is a game fun? So we look at games in the marketplace and play patterns in the marketplace and ask ourselves, is this a game that would lend itself to a skilled game? So does it take skill? In the same way that chess takes skill, whereas roulette may not take skill, some games are really skill games. So whether it's playing solitaire or playing bingo or playing a puzzle game, it really takes skill. And whether it's speed or mental agility or just, you know, general knowledge, those are skills that apply.

5:00So we tend to look at games that are fun first, but also really fit with the skill gaming platform. Okay, wow. And is there any specific gaming marketing strategy you guys use when you decide on a new game? Or do you have just the platform to just like roll it out and the usual users start just looking it up? Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, in some ways, WorldWinner is like Netflix in that we aggregate a range of games together. And our focus is primarily on getting people into the WorldWinner experience because it's really like a WorldWinner ecosystem, if you will. And so in our marketing, we are selling the brand proposition of WorldWinner, which it's completely fair.

5:47It's trusted. We have fantastic games and there's ability to win big cash on prizes. And so that's the overall value proposition to the player. But we also market the games themselves so that we are saying, hey, we have a new blackjack game or we have a new puzzle game, et cetera, much like you would see with Netflix or HBO, where they're promoting a new show, but they are still trying to get you into the overall channel umbrella. And that's really what our strategy is. Okay, okay, I understand. And have you seen any weird or interesting thing that gamers decide when spending on the WorldWinner platform?

6:30Like, I don't know, is there a game that they prefer to play the most? Or do most games have like an average user base, and it's almost the same? Not sure if there's any metrics like that that you guys watch. Yeah, I mean, what's interesting about it is whenever we roll out a new game on the platform, what we pay attention to more than anything is games per player per day, because that's a good measurement that tells us, is this game actually fun? You know, a game that's played three times a day versus a game that's played 10 times a day, you can sort of tell. Then we dig in with the customer segment and we see our VIPs playing this game, our new users playing this game, our regular people playing this game, and how are they playing it?

7:14And what you tend to see is that our audience has a variety of cohorts. Because we've been around for 25 years, there's people that have been playing WorldWinner for more than five years. And then there's people that are, you know, in the last couple of years. And then there's people that have only been playing in the first year. Newer users tend to come in and they play the branded games out of the gate. They're attracted to Wheel of Fortune. They're attracted to Scrabble. They might know about Solitaire or Bingo. So they tend to play a wider range of games. Players that have been around, in contrast, for five plus years, they have games that they love.

7:53and they tend to be solitaire and bingo and Yahtzee. So depending on your length of time on WorldWinner, that really may determine what are your favorite games. But, you know, generally speaking in the skill gaming world, card games, bingo, slot type games and puzzle games are really what dominate. Wow, that's so crazy. And are you guys like I imagine by the name WorldWinner, I imagine it is. But have you gone global? Can you be accessed in any country and play and win the prizes in any country? Or do you have certain regions that you don't function in? Yeah. So right now we are live in the US and Canada only.

8:33And there are different regulations in different markets in the world. So eventually we will expand and we're always looking for distribution partners that might help guide our entry into other markets. But right now we focus exclusively on the US and Canada. Okay. Okay. Okay. Interesting. Interesting. Oh, my God. I'm in Argentina at the moment. And if I saw World Winner was here and I could play, for example, a game of Catan and it would and I believe it's a skill based game. Do you have those types of board games available on the platform or is it more on? I want to say arcade, but bingo and that type of games aren't arcade either.

9:10I think you would say arcade, casino, and casual games are really those that tend to work best in a skill gaming tournament environment. Because typically, players want to play a game experience that can be culminated in three to five minutes. Okay. And so they want to play games that are in short bursts, give them a lot of satisfaction. Hey, I played a game of Scrabble Cubes. I won$5. Now let me play again. You know, that's very different than playing a long-drawn game of Catan or Monopoly or Risk or whatever, which are all great games, but are not necessarily skill games per se. Okay, now that you mention it with your perspective, I completely agree.

9:56And I believe that is also part of the strategy that keeps users hooked and like driving the traffic on the platform and the website, just like them having and playing game after game after game after game. And just out of curiosity, is there a certain or more popular age group that accesses world winner? Or do you see like a lot of Gen Z, a lot of Gen X or a bit of more of a boomer type of user demographic? What can you tell me about that? Yeah, that is an amazing question. And, you know, skill games as a whole has always been slightly older. Like the audience has been sort of soccer moms and soccer grandmoms.

10:38And skill gaming as a category tended to be slightly more female and slightly older. What we've seen in the last year is that there's a lot of entrance into the category that are really bringing younger people and bringing men. And in particular, you know, we're in business with FanDuel. We operate a product together called FanDuel Faceoff. And FanDuel's customers tend to be more male and younger. and FanDuel Faceoff has been doing amazingly well. And I think we've proven to ourselves that, you know, men and gamers are really kind of synonymous. And so we've really been able to expand the audience quite a bit through our partnership with FanDuel.

11:25Wow. Okay, okay, okay. Super cool. And so how are you able to also create excitement around a game that people might not know of when you want to roll out something new that might not be as known as a name like Boggle or Scrabble or those brand names that you mentioned? How is it that you go about marketing that? Yeah, so fortunately, games are a visual medium, you know, and so in the gaming business, we are typically making a lot of very interesting assets and video in particular that shows people how the game is actually played and what's fun about it. And like many other companies, we have a whole strategy of getting those videos out to as many different people as possible.

12:12And we use social media, YouTube, et cetera, to get as much visibility as possible. And then sometimes we actually create playable demos of products so people can play it and see what it is. And we do a pretty good job of communicating with our users about like, hey, if you like this game, you might also like that game. But gamers tend to just want to jump in the water, not watch reviews, not watch a lot of content. They expect in a mobile game or a web game that they'll be able to pick it up instantly, play it and decide whether it's good for them. And they're willing to try many, many things, which is cool.

12:51It's true. Me personally, I don't look at many reviews unless it's something I'm really, really interested in because I don't want any spoilers. So I just prefer to play the game and try to figure it out by myself unless it's too hard or something like that. Yeah, well, in a world where you needed to pay, go to the GameStop and buy Call of Duty for$50, you would read the reviews, you would know whether it was for you and whether you wanted to invest your time in it. But in a world where most games are free to download in the App Store and you can sample them just by downloading and playing for free.

13:26There's actually no risks there for the consumer. And so they let their own opinion be the driver of whether it's worth playing or not. Not some reviewer. Of course, of course. And is there a certain process to get a player from going from a free demo to actually paying money and starting to consume on the platform and go into tournaments and stuff? Like, do you guys catch who's a kind of a warm lead in the users you get in your traffic? Yeah, I mean, I think most game companies work kind of in the same way that you bring the users and you get them to download your product. You give them a free experience and a first time user experience that is robust enough that they really get a feel for how the product is going to work and whether they like it.

14:15And then once they've had the opportunity to experience it a little bit, then we ask them to deposit so that they can play cash games and tournaments and get them excited about the benefits of the product. And so we're using the player's own data and their experience in the product to know what is most likely to get them excited and most likely to make them want to convert into a paying user and start entering cash tournaments. But we do offer a robust free experience to the user so that they can discover whether they like the product before they ever have to deposit and start into cash tournaments.

14:56Okay, that's great. And I bet that also adds more trust into the brand because allowing players to experience a free trial, I think it helps them not feel tricked. Like if I need to put money to play a game that I'm not going to like, it's going to be a bit of hard relationship if I don't like the game and then I already gave you guys the money. It could be weird. So I think that's really cool. And mentioning how you see the metrics and what players are getting into and if they play this, then you might suggest that. Are you guys leveraging AI, which is a trending topic of the moment? But do you guys use AI in your standard processes or could you shed some light into how that is?

15:31Yeah, so today we use AI quite a bit in our creative development. So how we make videos, how we make advertising, how we write customer communications, our CRM, et cetera. And we've really gotten quite good at delivering very custom messages to users that are important and relevant to them. And so I would say we've made great strides on the creative development front with AI. We're using machine learning, just like many game companies, for managing our customer relationships and our CRM and how we talk to particular segments to make sure that what we are delivering to them is really what they want.

16:20But the range of tools available for us as a game company to make sure that what we deliver to customers is what they want is, you know, significantly better than it was a year ago and a year from now to be better again. Yes. And with AI that it learns from itself and from the input users have, I imagine you guys are creating a more complete platform of everything you're doing. And Nancy, with seeing that WorldWinner, I believe, was founded in 1999. Is that correct? Yes. It's been a while in the market. How do you guys know when it's time to expand the team of the company when you need to stay put?

17:00Because being around for so long, I imagine you've had to handle these types of topics quite often. Well, first we're saying I haven't been around for 25 years. So WorldWinter has a very storied history because the company was really the pioneer in skill gaming. And several years ago, 15 plus years ago, WorldWinter went from being a startup to being acquired by Sony and became part of Game Show Network, GSN, which was part of a larger group of casual game companies in casino business, game show business, etc. etc. And WorldWinner really scaled under the Sony umbrella and became, you know, one of the largest game companies out there with over, you know, 30 million people had played the product.

17:52And then about almost five years ago now, Sony sold WorldWinner to our current owners, Platinum Equity. And Platinum Equity had a vision of building, you know, expanding WorldWinner and really making it into the dominant skill gaming business on the market. So we've been owned by private equity for about five years. And during that time period, we did the partnership with FanDuel and developed FanDuel Faceoff. So we have a true white label business that we operate with FanDuel that has scaled quite rapidly. Then we also completely rebuilt our technology platform. We've launched over 20 new games in this time period, and we've really been focused on expanding our user base and expanding to a new audience where we can reach, you know, skilled gamers of all shapes and sizes.

18:48Okay, okay. And have you guys considered moving into Web3 and kind of like putting on blockchain what you guys are doing and maybe giving the users a bit more control in what they do? Or are you comfortable where you're at? Yeah, I think we're interested in, you know, crypto, all things crypto, etc. Right now, we are focused on being the best skill gaming business that we can be. And, you know, we're very interested in expanding our distribution and expanding our distribution partners around the world. And that's really what our focus is, because we see that, you know, the interest in Social Casino, iCasino, Sweeps Casino, all these different real money platforms around the world is really beginning to overlap quite nicely with skill gaming.

19:39And so we see lots of opportunity to expand our business with products that are appealing to a wider audience and really appealing to that audience out there that wants to go after gaming products that provide big wins. So that's really what our focus is. Rather than payment platforms, et cetera, we're really focused on how do we deliver the best possible experience that helps us bridge the gap between skill gaming and ultimately iCasino and other types of real money gaming products. Okay, I get that. I get that. And I believe it's important that WorldWare maintains its vision that it's a skill gaming platform and it's not a casino.

20:20and it has the bad-making fairness because I think that's what keeps users coming back. Yes. And another question just out of my genuine curiosity, what's your favorite game of the platform? Like, what would you play? That's hard because I love everything. And as the CEO, each month I choose a game of the month. And my focus is that I'm trying to build to a high skill level on every single game so I can be credible in every single game. But I personally still really love Solitaire. Solitaire Rush is my favorite game. I could play it for hours, but I love Mingo, Puzzle Match, Scrabble. I mean, virtually every game on the platform, but I am very attracted to cards.

21:05OK, that's so cool. Yeah, I know my mom loves Solitaire and loves card games. It's crazy. But listening to you say that every month you choose one to just get better at it and be credible sounds like a very fun upskilling opportunity just to be playing those games. Yeah, well, it's kind of funny because each month I ask customer service to put bonus bucks into my account so I have money to play in all of these tournaments so that I can really experience the product in real time with real players. Of course, I'm never taking money from them. I'm playing with bonus bucks. But also, I mean, I've played over 18 ,000 games on the platform in the last year, you know, which is a lot of time.

21:48It is. Because I really want to understand everything there is to know about the player. And that's really our mantra at WorldWinner as a whole, that no matter who you are, whether you work in customer service or you work in marketing or you're a producer or you're an engineer. Everyone has an employee account. Everyone is playing games. Everyone is providing platform feedback as well as playing all our competitive products because that's really what it's all about. Being able to put yourself in that hands or the phone of the player and know what they're thinking. Yeah, no. And also experiencing, as you say it, experiencing it real life, how tournaments work, how long the money takes to arrive to the player's account after they won, because I imagine it's a pretty anxious moment.

22:35Like, hey, I got this, but it hasn't arrived. I don't know if I should keep playing. But it does seem like quite a thrill. I can't wait until you guys are able to expand maybe even to Argentina so I can try these out because I'm a sucker for games. I love them all. That's great. And Nancy, here running through my other questions, what is one of the marketing strategies that you've used that you think was great about three to four years ago, but that you feel that is not functioning now? Yeah, that's a good question. You know, I think if we were to go back historically, we were really marketing WorldWinter like it was a free-to-play game.

23:13You know, come in, play it for free, try the experience, get into the experience. And we really treated this like it was any other game company and we were marketing it like a free-to-play experience. I think what we've discovered is the people that want to play these games, they recognize that they need to deposit money and that they're depositing money, that they are entering tournaments, that there is something to win here. And so our marketing communication has shifted from like, try it for free to, hey, make a deposit, we'll match the deposit and we will give you a fantastic experience like out of the gate.

23:57So it's much more similar to how other real money gaming businesses market their products, like showing the ability to deposit and win as opposed to come play this product for free indefinitely. And so that's really shifted. And that's something that we've learned from other real money categories, whether they're casino or sportsbook, etc., that you need to prove to the customer it's fun, it's trustworthy, and it's worth making a deposit and entering into cash games as quickly as possible. Because for people that are playing games, having skin in the game with a paid entry fee really adds to the fun factor.

24:44It does. It makes it actually feel like you have something to lose. Because if If you play ranked in other games and you just lose a few cups or whatever the game gives you, I believe it's all good and it's all in good fun. But when people put their own money in it, it's like there's something more on the line and it makes them even more invested in coming back. And even if it's somebody that doesn't need that money, but they can make a bit more and then just go out and splurge on it, they could maybe want to play those games. But seeing as like, I don't feel World Winner is a direct competitor of these online casinos and these other types of gaming platforms online, being in such like niche market, do you feel like you have a lot of competition or is WorldWinner placed as the number one in that area?

25:29Well, there's actually quite a lot of competition for real money gaming because, I mean, here's a statistics that would probably blow your mind. And that is that most gamers, over 70 % of them have gambled in the last year. Gambling could be defined as buying a lottery ticket, playing daily fantasy sports, going to a casino, etc. But the dopamine hit that you get playing skill games and games for money and casino games is very similar to the dopamine hit that you get for playing video games. And so there's quite a lot of crossover between people that game and people that gamble. And so, you know, like once you recognize that as sort of a foundation, then you realize the people that are playing skill games are probably doing sports book.

26:26They might be playing iCasino. They might be doing Social Casino. They might be doing Sweeps Casino. They might be going to real casinos. They might be buying lottery tickets. Like if you like real money gaming, you like real money gaming and the ability to win real cash across all formats. And so what we believe fundamentally is we have to deliver something that is fun and is exciting and gives you the ability to win. But if it's not fun and people don't want to play your games, it's really difficult to win as a business and win for the customer. Oh, my goodness. Right. I love that because you've mentioned it several times, but it's real money gaming.

27:09So it is right in there with casinos and other stuff. So it's all like the same industry. And do you guys at WorldWinner have any controls to measure or gauge how much user can play? Like, for example, I know there are cell phone games like Candy Crush that give you five lives. And if you spend those and you can't play for a while, or do you not control that in order to leave the play as much as they want? Yeah. So we don't have a mechanic like that because we are not a free to play business. And so we have a free experience and players can play as many practice games as they want because we're a skill gaming business.

27:45We want people to be able to practice and build their skill level. But those practice games, those free games are unlimited on most of our games that we have. And then if you want to play cash tournaments, you, of course, have to deposit or you have to earn your way into the cash tournaments. OK, so a player could begin with a free trial and earn enough, I don't know, points or something that world winner grants in order to access their first tournament. Like you wouldn't have to put money out of your pocket. Yes, correct. You know, there's a set of goals as a new player that you can participate in that will give you access to cash tournaments.

28:23And if you win, you can begin building your balance that way. Oh, that's super cool. I love that. I love that. Okay. And I know we're almost at time, Nancy, but I would like to ask one more question. And this is more for the audience. And if there's anybody that is entering the gaming business that wants to maybe start a platform for this real money gaming industry, what would be some advice that you would tell them that you would have loved to know when you started with WorldWinner? That's a good question. I think it all comes back to the fun factor. You know, in order to be successful, every game has to do two things.