Olivia Rubin on embracing colour, slowing down, and balancing motherhood and business

0:01Coming up on Happy Mum, Happy Baby When I look back on those photos of myself, it's almost like the exterior showing how I felt inside. I don't look like myself. Black, dark clothes. I think afterwards becoming obsessive about my weight and manifesting other problems. I didn't even think to myself, there must be a way out of this or surely I can talk to someone or how can I help myself with these feelings? I think I just ploughed through and tried to like ride the wave, but it did go on for a while. I remember arriving back from New York, literally just dumping my cases. And the girls were like, oh, mummy, mummy, and wanted to catch up and find out what I was doing.

0:48And I wanted to hear about their school things. And I had to just go straight out because I'd already committed to doing a customer event. And I opened my handbag and then in the bag was a note from my daughter. And she's like, mummy, you're doing such a good job. It really makes me emotional. I think at that point I was like, something's got to give.

1:18Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of Happy Mum, Happy Baby, the podcast. I am so excited about today's guest because she's a fashion designer. but she is a fashion designer who just puts so much joy and colour into everything that she creates. Just looking at it makes me feel happy and then wearing it is something else. She's also the mother of two daughters. It's Olivia Rubin. Hello. Hi. How are you? Yeah, I'm really good. So happy to be here. How are you? All well? Yeah, all good. How old are the girls? Really good. They are nine and eleven. So you've just got the about to go into secondary school thing?

1:54About to go to secondary school. How are you feeling about that? emotional just kind of want to stop time as well i feel like time's just going by so quickly when you're in a moment it feels like you're stuck in that moment and nothing's changing and then in a blink of an eye lots happens and i can't believe i've nearly got a teenager nearly but boss goes to secondary school in september as well and i just can't believe that we're there i know also because I look back at like photos and videos and it literally feels like such a recent memory. Yeah, I get you. I feel you. Because also I don't feel old.

2:33I don't feel 11 years older. I know. But then when you think back to when you were their age, someone in like their 40s or 50s seems ancient. So I'm like, I am that person now. But it's the adjustment of teenage life and girls. one thing I don't know how I'm going to feel about is the whatsapp groups I don't think there's generally a parent whatsapp group for secondary school no I think it's they go and they fly on their own I feel a slight a slight twinge of relief of not having that whatsapp group but also I guess it's the safety net of having having it knowing what they're up to knowing their every movement and being able to like give them more independence yeah I'm very bad though i will pack buzz's bag his uniform will be at the side of the bed so i do all of that stuff yes but from year seven i'm not really gonna know what he needs in the same way i know i feel like my eldest i'm the similar yeah with you with my eldest and she's a bit all over the place and i have to organize her whereas my youngest i don't know if it's a personality thing or a second child age thing but she almost organizes everything for my eldest she's more organized than me these days so it is a bit having to let them learn and go off and fly and make their own mistakes which I'm trying to start to do a little bit more now yeah in preparation but I think it's just a part of growing up I say you know you're gonna make mistakes you're gonna forget your homework you're gonna you know forget things in in senior school and that's just part of life I think the less we make of it, the better, like big deal of it.

4:16She's just got to learn and not get stressed over it. That's my main concern is just keeping anxiety and stress levels low. I think as long as she's excited by it, which she is, and I think there's that readiness to move forward and have new experiences, which I'm excited for her. What was your childhood like? I was thinking about this actually yesterday before I came on here yeah and I actually recently I don't know if it's an age thing or just the fact that I'm still my closest friends are my school friends really we talk a lot about school days and growing up and I feel like I was just so lucky with like my childhood with my family with the relationship I have with my close family.

5:05And I think I was quite naive at school, thinking that everyone had that same bubble of love and kindness, acceptance. So the fact that you're still mates with all of your schoolmates, are you all still living in the same area? Similar areas, yeah. Wow. I know, I know. Not exactly the same area, but we all live near our senior school. Yeah. and I feel like it's a constant subject of conversation really yes I think because a lot of us also have kids that age where they are going to senior school it's relating our issues and our problems when we were at school to what the children are facing now yeah it's quite a hot topic for us and I guess if you've had a childhood that you really loved and you had that experience at that secondary school that you really enjoyed, there'd be almost a temptation for all of your children to kind of follow that same route.

6:01But the reality is sort of 20, 30 years down the line, it's a very, everywhere's a different place than it was when we were younger. It is. They both actually go to the same primary school that I went to now, which isn't the most convenient because we don't live in that area. But when they were little, I just really wanted them to go there. And they've loved it. And it brings back so many memories for me and for my mum when she picks them up for school. She says, you know, it's like picking you up from school all over again. So it was really sweet. And I felt really close to the school having them there again and being able to relive similar moments to me and wear the same uniform.

6:43But now that my eldest is going to a different senior school, it's an adjustment. and I think it's great that she's going to experience something different to me. Where they go to senior school, all those big decisions, whether they go to primary or anything, I can never get over the fact that that will always play such a massive impact on who they become, on their interests and everything like that, because it's about who they surround themselves with, the environment of the school and what they push and promote. That has such a massive impact on them. Yes, because it did have a massive impact on me.

7:16And as I say, like my closest friends are still my school friends, which I don't know if it's rare or not. I guess a lot of people make friends, more friends like at university or college or when they become mums or jobs. But they are still like my core, the ones that know me, that get me, that understand me. And I think it's a bit of a safety net having them there for any like problems or issues. yeah did you always know when you were younger that you wanted to have a family yes yes I think also because I grew up in such a safe environment yeah and I got on really well with my parents I think it was just a natural progression of thought that I would eventually have kids I think I also wanted to because that's what I came from and a lot of people want that I feel like my friends who come from a big family also now have like four kids and I think it kind of echoes in that way when you're starting a family.

8:19Was there a moment where you felt like the time was right to start trying? I think back then it was more of an age issue. I know it's not that long ago, like my eldest is 11, but I feel like so much has changed in those 11 years from like when women are having children now I feel like they're having children later yeah so when I look back I feel like actually I was quite I was 30 but now that's considered quite young and I think if I was if I was to have kids again I probably would have waited maybe a little bit longer but I did feel ready so there's no regrets like oh I wish I'd waited longer and experienced more when I'd got married it was the right time but I feel like there's no there's not that pressure anymore yeah or less pressure there's obviously still pressures from society and what what women should and shouldn't do and when they should do it all these rules so-called rules but I think I just followed my my kind of gut instinct yeah I wonder if we go back to the start of us trying to have kids whether that whole you know because I was 30 as well whether that thing is it a biological thing that happens to our bodies where there's just suddenly that need and it has to happen now and that becomes almost sort of that level of desperation for it to happen.

9:39Yes. Or whether there is that whole big thing of societal pressure, you know, whether it's a mixture of the two when your body suddenly goes, yeah, you know, whether you're just like in almost panic mode, whereas actually now maybe there is that whole thing of actually there's time. Yeah, I think there's so much more of that now than there was then. Yeah. In many different aspects of motherhood. Well, you see people having kids in their late 40s now. and Tana Ramsey was on a little while ago, and she had her last baby at 48. And I was with Denise Lewis last night, who fell pregnant at 46, thought she was going into perimenopause, and actually she was pregnant.

10:14Oh, my God. So there are people out there that it is happening for at a later age. Yeah, and I think that's great. I'm all for that. I don't think anyone should feel pressure from friends, family, or society to do anything. And if they're riding the wave of their career or they're not ready, then I'm all for that. Well, talking about career, career-wise, when you first started trying for a baby, where were you at in that world? I think that also played quite an important part in wanting to have kids because I pretty much, from starting fashion college all the way through to then starting a brand and working for other people, there were no breaks for me.

10:58It was like one continuous line of going from internship to job to freelance and. And doing incredible work as well. I pretty much worked solidly from university was a four year course that I studied at Central St. Martins with one year in industry. And then from then I pretty much launched a whole more of a wholesale brand still under my own name. But it was quite intense selling to buyers, traveling a lot. and then I think I got to the stage after I got married and we'd just moved house that I felt more of a need for a break. Right. Ironically. I'll have a baby because that will make me stop.

11:41I know. I was like, I'm going to stop. I felt like I just needed a break from fashion. Yeah. I think I probably then, with the mind that I have, being quite organised and regimental in my thinking, was like okay break maybe I should now start trying for a baby I don't know how long it's going to take this would be a good time to have one and yeah and then I did break before you yes I took a I decided to wind down the business that was going at the time I thought I wanted to freelance for other companies have the flexibility that I didn't have in my own business and thought about trying and I got pregnant quite quickly.

12:27Oh really were you surprised? Yes and no I didn't think it would happen as quickly but then I think if you're trying you have to expect that you never know yeah so yeah I was I was pleasantly surprised got one from from one type of work to another so Quite quickly? Quite quickly, yes. I think the day I brought home my daughter was the day we moved into our house. Oh, wow. So everything was like quite full on at that time, which wasn't planned, but my eldest was early. So it was like new house, new baby, no career. Well, that's not so much to happen in such a short space of time. I mean, in hindsight, it was too much for me to deal with.

13:17but I didn't really have any choice. Especially when you've taken that break to kind of ease that pressure so you can kind of lean into, you know, motherhood. Yeah, because me and my husband, we were living with my parents and the house wasn't ready but we didn't really have a choice. There wasn't really space in my parents' place and we just, we had work to do on the house so it was just going to be one of those ongoing projects but it was a lot because I remember feeling quite unfamiliar in my surroundings and then having a new baby and I was already quite a nervous stressed mum leading up to it right I had I'd had a couple of friends who had babies but I feel like at that time the whole thing oh you never know until it's your own you never you never feel the same way and I was always maternal like I love kids and I loved my friends kids and family but But it was a different feeling when it's your own.

14:16I feel like I was a very nervous early mum. What sort of mum did you think you would be? I knew that I wouldn't be relaxed. Because I'm not like, I'm not necessarily, I am much more these days. I've never been like a chilled person. I kind of like to know what I'm going to do. I like to have a plan and I think that's maybe where myself and early motherhood butted heads almost because there is no plan with a newborn you've got to take it in your stride and she was actually a really easy baby so I think I was probably too hard on myself looking back thinking I'm doing everything wrong and you know is there something wrong with I kept on thinking there was something wrong.

15:05Really? Yes. Well, let's go back first and talk about your pregnancies. Yeah. How were, did they differ to each other? Not really. Really? And they were both exactly two weeks or is it three, two or three weeks early to the day. So they were quite similar. Did you feel sick during them? A little bit, nothing major, but I didn't enjoy being pregnant. What about it didn't you like? I feel like I'm not very earth mothery. So I wasn't embracing, you know, the bump. And I don't know. It wasn't that I hated being pregnant, but I speak to so many people and they love being pregnant. It was their most favourite part of motherhood and they can't wait to get pregnant again.

15:54Were you one of those people? No, I loved my first pregnancy. I think I felt more womanly than I ever had. Like I loved everything. And then I think all of a sudden the baby wasn't there and I was like, oh, you know, suddenly in a very different place. Yes. And then I think the subsequent pregnancies, my body just hated me. All the aches and pains. Yeah. Yeah. It is funny how the body trains the mind to forget. Because otherwise one wouldn't get pregnant again. No. My second pregnancy, my second birth was a lot more traumatic than my first. So what was your first like? Easy. Really? Had you done hypnobirthing or anything like that?

16:33No, I did. Yeah, I did NCT, but nothing else. And how did you feel going into it? Nervous. Did you? Yes, because I'd had friends who'd, who had had babies. Not that they relayed any horror stories to me, but I think it's that kind of apprehension and nervousness of going through something for the first time. But the birth was my first was easy. And I feel like that's quite a reflection of her character. They say that now when I when I talk to people about having children and birthing. a lot of people say that like the birth is almost a reflection of some part of the personality of the child whether my second was a nightmare no I shouldn't say that though it wasn't a great birth so what happened with this one and did you go into it a little bit I find it really fascinating because going into my first I felt quite excited and kind of I'd done all the hypnobirthing I felt like let's just see what happens.

17:44Did you know what you were having? No, no I didn't find out. No I didn't either. That's such a nice surprise. Yeah it's a nice surprise. It was good. But then I think going into the second you've almost, even though I had a great experience with the first, almost there is another level of apprehension because you did it before, it went really well but I don't know, I was just nervous going into the other birth. The second? Yeah. I was but don't you think every I feel like there's a lot of chat amongst pregnant women and nurses that the second is automatically going to be easier than the first because you've done it once before.

18:18So I actually think that I was less nervous going into the second. Yes, because my first was quite easy and not traumatic and it all was quite quick. But with my second, I think I had that mentality already set in me like, oh, I've done it once before, it's going to be okay. and like the actual birth itself I found quite traumatic it was like very long they couldn't get her out it was like super painful for me second time way more and the recovery was like months after yes which I kind of wasn't expecting but again I don't know if I was listening to too much kind of NCT chat at that point and that's hard because you think having gone through it once You've kind of got to the point where you've gone, oh, you know, we're on our own journey.

19:13It doesn't matter what everyone else thinks. But actually, you still crave that. I don't know, other people sort of having a reflection of your story as someone else. Yes. It makes me feel more at ease. Yeah. And I guess everyone's saying to me, oh, my second was so much easier and it was quicker. and all these, I don't know if they're called wives' tales necessarily, but it did a 180 for me and it was the other way around. How did you feel after that? It was really traumatic. I found it really hard to recover. The breastfeeding part I found much easier with my second because my first I wasn't super, I think, because of the nervousness that I was going through with her.

19:57I wasn't really like at one with breastfeeding. I did try it a little bit, but then when it didn't work, I kind of stopped immediately. So I wanted to give it more of a chance second time, which worked really well. But I think the birth had an impact on her as well because she was like crying all the time. And everything that I'd been through the first time kind of came back, but in a more impactful way. So the first time round, you were saying how mentally everything was quite heavy. Yes, yes, it was. It took me a long time to feel like myself again. And then the age, the age gap is about two and a half years.

20:38So when I came round to having my second, I felt more at ease having been through the process once and knowing what to expect, almost. but I did find I did find it probably less traumatic because when once you've been through something once you're you're prepared but it it did take its toll and I did feel that stress and anxiety creeping in did you have postpartum with the I think I did but again I was discussing this with a friend the other day I don't think postpartum was really even talked about that much about like 10 years ago I don't I never felt like I needed to go and see someone or go to a doctor but again I think it's because I thought what I was feeling was just I guess normal yeah but when I look back I definitely had well you might have even had perinatal depression or anxiety if you were feeling that in the lead up as well yeah maybe but I guess I just had no information about it.

21:47None of my friends had really suffered from it. I hadn't really I guess there was not really there wasn't really much social media like 11, 12 years ago. So there wasn't that many resources about it. And I think it was just the unknown and thinking. It's just me. It will pass. I've just got to ride this wave. I didn't even think to myself. there must be a way out of this or surely I can talk to someone or how can I help myself with these feelings I think I just plowed through and tried to like ride the wave but it did go on for a while when I look back I I don't even really remember what my thought process was back then because I felt like I was constantly like stressed and not being myself if that makes sense yeah yeah And also to a stop and find yourself in that place.

22:44Having gone from a really busy work life into moving into having a baby and then actually where you are then would have been so vastly different. Yeah, I think that definitely played a part, the fact that I was so busy and all consumed by my career and what I was doing to not having any of that, not even like a glimpse of it and being thrown into motherhood with this anxiety definitely the combination of the two I had took its toll and had an impact on me like to the point where I didn't even feel like myself and recently when I've talked about it I've had like crazy amounts of women messaging me and relating to it and I think when I first posted about this which was a year or a year and a half ago I honestly didn't expect the reaction that I had but it related and it it really touched a nerve with so many women that I was then like yeah you know that that was actually postpartum anxiety I don't know if depression was was the right word because I don't I've never been depressed or suffered from depression so I don't know what that feels like but how I describe it now would would be some sort of anxiety if you could go back to yourself at that point yes and say something to yourself so as you weren't talking to people and you weren't sharing about how how you were feeling what would you what would you say i would probably tell myself to go and speak to someone and i think that's also that was more taboo back then now i feel like everyone has therapy and they talk about it and it's super common which is great even with like my daughters when i'm talking about things and i refer to someone who's you know having therapy or speaking to someone it's not considered taboo whereas back then I think if I'd said that everyone would have been what's wrong are you okay and I don't think I would have wanted that reaction back then I felt like it was something that I had to deal with but if yeah if I was going to say something to myself then I'd say go and speak to someone go and get some advice go and speak to someone who can help you come to terms with these emotions and these feelings yeah absolutely I feel like it maybe didn't feel safe to say things like that yes 10 years ago maybe part of me would have felt like a failure in some way or that I wasn't doing a good job as a mom or that I was inadequate I think those feelings probably would have come to light more, but I kind of kept them in.

25:30Which is also really difficult when you've been bossing it career wise. Yeah. And then you become a mum, which is, you know, this thing that's meant to just apparently come naturally and we've all got it within us. And actually, then that doesn't go as you thought. I think that balance of that, like Jo Elvin was one of our first guests on this podcast. And she was talking about that, that whole thing of, you know, being the boss at work and being in control and being able to sort of lead a room. Whereas actually when you're at home with your baby and suddenly feeling so out of your depth with everything that could possibly go on with this baby.

26:03Yeah, it's true. They're very different experiences. And it was it was it was hard, I think, when I look back. And I think maybe because I wasn't aware of the emotions. I know I can verbalize them now and understand them more now than I did then. But I think what shows it to me more now is looking at the photos, which is what I posted on Instagram with people saying, you know, that's not you. I don't recognize you. And then when I look back on those photos of myself, it's almost like the interior, the exterior showing how I felt inside the interior, because I just didn't, I don't look like myself.

26:49And when I look at those photos, they bring back the emotions that I was feeling then. But it's almost like I express them through what I was wearing, which was black, dark clothes. Almost, I think, afterwards becoming obsessive about my weight and manifesting other problems, like becoming obsessive about what I was eating and having to have that kind of control. Yeah. So. And having control of those things. Yes. You're able to. Yeah, but I mean, I obviously got through it and managed to find a way out of those and I put that down to like starting my brand again. So did you start the brand again between babies or after the second?

27:39After the second, but very quickly after the second, I think I felt at that point, I'd done a couple of freelance projects in between for other brands. But I think when my second daughter was about six months, I started an art class again. And my husband has always been super encouraging. He's never said, you know, don't work or stay at home. It's complete opposite. Really, really encouraging, really supportive. and he was like why don't you just go and do an art class you know you love painting you love creating and I was like you know what yes I said I don't think I can leave them for like every day all day yet but I started doing an evening class oh that's nice yes and that gradually brought back my spark from going to painting again and then I started to be more interested in clothes because also I think it was a combination having been burnt out in the fashion industry when I did have my first and everything that I found negative about the industry kind of culminated in me not wanting to go back to that so I just took it slowly and I became interested in clothes and fashion again and wanted to start making myself a few bits and that was the turning point.

29:01I think if I hadn't have had that, I don't know where I would have ended up.

29:14Were you prepared second time round if things, I know you said before that physically things were much more difficult to get through. Mentally, were you more prepared for things to happen? they I was but I don't feel like I had fully recovered when I was like an ongoing yes almost like this is life now yeah I don't I don't think it was two years of ongoing anxiety and worry but I don't feel like I'd I didn't feel like myself yet even in those two and a half years I feel like there were ups and downs but I hadn't fully immersed into like my true self like becoming a butterfly I don't know but I didn't feel that there was like I suddenly got better and then I had my second and I got worse again or those thoughts kind of those thoughts were kind of creeping in throughout and it wasn't until I honestly think until I started creating again and as selfish as this might sound like doing something maybe for myself outside of the arena it doesn't mean that I don't love my children just as much but I almost did feel a little bit guilty when I went off even though it was an evening class and I had support and encouragement throughout no one it's not like anyone was saying to me or judging me oh she's gonna go and work or she's gonna go and do an art class and leave them the baby's only six months I had nothing like that it was myself which is I think in a way worse because you are your biggest self-critic in a way but it was that that brought me out of it gradually did you feel that yes I did I did because painting again and being surrounded by other artists and then finding some designs that I like doing and making myself making myself my first piece was like it changed me and I can see it in the photos really yes because I did I did a timeline from the past 10 years right of of how my exterior reflects my interior and it goes from like fully black like really really slim and then I wore like a red lipstick and then I wore like a navy tiny colored print skirt and then it it grew from there to like full-blown rainbow well the first sequined skirt that you that you made yes that was my first piece yeah but that How did that feel going from wearing black and grey to suddenly putting that on?

32:01Yeah, it felt it felt really good. It felt really good, not only because it was colourful and it felt like me because I'd always worn colour. And even before I had children, the aesthetic of my brand was always focused around colour. And that's what I studied at St. Martin's was fashion prints. So there was super focus on print and color and creativity within surface design. But it was it was the feeling that I'd also accomplished something for myself, although it was just a skirt. I felt like, oh, you know, I can't find I can't find this in the shops. And I've made it with the help of my pattern cutter.

32:44And there was a process making it that was almost soothing to me and maybe gave me that feeling of like being able to do something for myself again. Because so much is about pouring it into the kids. So often we forget that actually we've got to pour love. Yes, exactly. The most important thing. Yeah. yeah so that's that's really where it started and I honestly had no and ever because the question I get asked the most by people is like how did you start your fashion brand what was your business plan but it it wasn't I didn't have one I didn't even mean to start a brand then I just started making clothes and then it was when Instagram I think first started I posted one and then my friends saw and they're like oh I love that I don't haven't seen anything like that around can I can I buy one I was like yeah sure and then I would get dms from influencers and celebrities saying oh I love your skirt where can I get one and it was a bit of a organic snowball effect to the point where I then quickly started a website just to be able to sell these pieces and just started packing orders on my dining room table.

34:11How old were the girls at this point? Well, my youngest was barely even like nine months. But ironically, I didn't feel stressed then. I had help with the kids and I just kind of made it work. It was, I didn't really know what I was doing really. Really? business-wise I was like oh like lots of people want the skirt what should I do oh I better oh I better make a website oh I better get almost like trying to play catch up to what was going on on board and I think the way that it was organically set up didn't make it stressful because I obviously didn't want to add more stress to my life but I didn't find it stressful then I found it was it gave me back my mojo having these ideas and then I thought oh this skirt what else can I make?

35:06And I've realised now that being an ideas person helps calm me. Thinking of new ideas, new designs or ways of marketing and socials in a way is my calming. But that's why someone becomes a creative person. Do you know what I mean? You don't want to get caught up in the back end of stuff or the hows, like the creating of it. Yes. It's got to be the thing that surely leads most people into those those worlds. Yes. Yes, that is true. But I think from the full circle that I've done within my business, like growing it to how to the point that it got to and then slowing down again. I feel like I've I have done a 360 and I've seen all the different angles of what having a business can be.

36:03And at the peak, I think I was probably like my most unhappy because I wasn't really creating. I was managing. Yeah. It felt like more of a corporate business. Which again is not what. No, not what it is. But I did I did study. I did study like business of fashion for one year before I started my brand. after university because I wasn't naive and thinking that having a fashion brand is just about creating and having ideas. It's so much more. So I wanted to be aware of what the business side would be, which I do. But I think when it's your own brand, you can't help but fall into that managerial role in some way.

36:47And at first, did it feel like you had a nice balance of work life and creativity? Yeah, it was great. That first year or actually kind of after COVID, those three years, four years of growth was amazing because I fulfilled so many dreams that I wanted. I think when I had my eldest, I'd always talked about and dreamt about being in Selfridges. I don't know why, but I'd had actual dreams and I managed to manifest it, which is why I really do believe in manifestations. But I made a small collection and they contacted me and they wanted to be the first ones to have it in their store. And I said, this is really, really weird.

37:33I had multiple dreams about selling in Selfridges from when I was at uni all the way through, like a reoccurring dream. And then it was happening. I was like, this is really weird. Wow. Like, yes, obviously. So there were moments like that. And then getting to travel, which at first was quite daunting, leaving the kids behind, but was also exciting and my own adventure. and them also growing up seeing that I was doing something for myself was important to me, striking that balance. Did they understand it at different ages as well? I think they did. They did because when I ask them now, they are very aware of my career and what I've done and super proud.

38:17And I think they've learned a lot from my journey as well. But I think it's past those years to, I mean, COVID was incredible for the brand. in the fact that it grew like a hundredfold. Well, it's funny, isn't it? You probably think at a time like that that people aren't going to be buying beautiful clothes because they're at home. But actually for some people, buying clothes that made them feel happy was one of the few things that they could do for themselves. Yes, and I think the fact that my brand is centred around rainbows and with the NHS and rainbows and we did quite a lot of charity collabs and people being on socials and wanting to have that interaction, it was quite extraordinary because I would be homeschooling in the day and my husband was still working during COVID and then packing like hundreds of orders at night so I would go to the studio in my in my mask in my gloves get as as much stock as possible get all the deliveries to come to me and then just be packing while every night had I've got photos of stacks high of boxes and then our living room was essentially just like a factory a warehouse full because I think when it first started it was so unbelievable and I had kind of flipped into panic mode because all the stores worldwide at this point I think I had over 50 worldwide stockers were all cancelling the orders and I was like oh my word what am I gonna do our fact the factory's closing but I managed to flip it I suddenly thought during Covid what would I like to wear and I thought rainbow loungewear so I managed to get it made and produced and sell it yeah during Covid so So it was quite a time.

40:15Yeah. It was quite a time. And then at what point, did it feel like it was all running away from you at any point? Did you feel like the balance was off? Yeah, definitely. Because it's very hard when opportunities pop up. Yes. And I said to someone the other day, I used to feel like I could never say no. Yeah. because I felt almost it was a sign of being ungrateful if I said no to things whereas now I have to see whether I can actually fulfill it while maintaining my level of control saying yes to everything is great on one side because you get to experience so many things But I think it threw so many parts of my life off balance.

41:05And I became stressed. I became burnt out. I was choosing work related events and commitments over child related events that I actually wanted to do. Yeah. So I was making too many sacrifices. And I know, obviously, what comes with having your own business is making sacrifices like I still do. like it's a non-stop job it's 24 7 it's not like working for a company where you can switch off essentially at five or six it's ongoing but I didn't really understand what the balance was until I felt burnt out and I felt upset and I felt unhappy even though it was riding the wave of success and I think there was one pivotal moment when I'd been traveling I'd been to New York and at this point everyone thought oh wow she's going to New York she's going to Paris look at she's posting these amazing photos of the collections in luxurious showrooms but I didn't want to be traveling four or five times a year it wasn't glamorous I didn't enjoy saying goodbye to my daughters and leaving that life behind and then coming back and being jet-lagged and having more commitments here and I remember arriving back from New York and then literally just dumping my cases and the girls were like oh mommy mommy and wanted to catch up and find out what I was doing and I wanted to hear about their school things and I had to just go straight out because I'd already committed to doing a customer event right and I had and I opened my handbag and then this in the bag was a note from my daughter and she's like mommy you're doing such a good job and it like it really like makes me like emotional

42:59yeah that was that was the moment and then I found the photo of it I think I think at that point I was like something's got to give yeah so is that thing like my big thing is at what cost how can you function if you're constantly being pulled into and you you're feeling guilty the whole time you're feeling run down the whole time everything you do I feel like you can feel like constantly prodded in different directions the whole time yeah and I mean the fact that she my daughter my eldest wrote that and she wasn't like you know I think if I look back now I'm surprised she didn't be like mommy I'm so annoyed with you why have you gone out and left me I don't I don't want to be with daddy and the nanny I want to like I if that had happened now that's the kind of note I'd probably get in my handbag but the fact that it was like mommy just remember you're always doing such a good job I was like oh my god like I can't like I just found it by surprise and I was in the taxi and at that moment I've got the photo I took a photo of it and when I was scrolling back pondering what the next step for me was like a year down the line and I was embarking on like slowing down and just deciding whether to stop or slow down I looked at that photo and I was like I'm definitely making the right decision because I think sometimes when you've I'd spent seven years building up this brand and I did say to my husband I was like I think I just want to stop now yeah like it's enough and he's like do you really is this you know this is like your third child in a way you've put so much into it it's all you it's not like I've ever had investors or other people telling me what to do it's been my own decisions and I was like I think I don't know I said I said I think I do and he's like why don't you just think about it like it was coming up towards a Christmas time and it's like let's just have Christmas think about it and then actually I did and I was like I don't want to but I only want to do the good parts of it I only want to do the good parts selfishly and he was like we'll do that then what do you have to do to make that happen and then I did what he said he's quite pragmatic unlike me I feel like I quite fiery Scorpio so I just wrote down everything that I really like doing concerning the business and things that I didn't and I gradually just slowed down and tried to make it work in my own way and I think it's been the best thing that I've done because not only has it given me more of a balance with home life and work but it's also made me learn a lot more about sustainability within fashion so it was almost like slowing down my life but slowing down in the fashion world and I've learned so much about it and I've had amazing opportunities like who would have thought like slowing down telling stockists I don't want to sell to you anymore which takes quite a lot when you when you've got that many people stocking your brand and waiting for a collection saying no is quite hard but I've realized you know did I need to do six collections a year each consisting of 30 pieces it was thousands of samples being made and showed and then not being able to choose what was going into the stores and then coming back to me was all these terms and conditions and I thought I don't want that anymore and I don't want that for the I don't feel that's where the future of fashion lies so it also gave me a really deep insight and quite a steep learning curve into sustainable methods within fashion well like the jumper that you're wearing now I know that I ordered that when it wasn't made yet you know what I mean so it's you're all you're making stuff not to order but in essentially you're you're knowing more about oh yes how much is going to be and i'm not doing full collections anymore either so i stopped doing the collections which is great for from a sustainability perspective because i'm not overproducing but i'm also taking away the pressure myself on having the designs done by a deadline and oh that collection needs to be done by july and made by august and shown and September, all these different deadlines and rules and regulations I didn't want anymore.

47:35Does it feel more organic now? It feels way more organic. It feels more me because I can spend time on designs. I can spend time, I'm still painting so I can use those prints and paintings that I've done in my work. And there's no waiting around either. So if I like something, I can just get it made or I can put it up for pre-order and it's very much a process with customers and followers as well I want them to have a say in what I do yeah I don't want the big buyers to have the say and then buy weight buy hundreds of garments half of them go into sale contributing to landfills over producing when I can have the interaction with my customers so I almost swapped interaction with stores for interaction one-on-one with followers and dms and customers hearing their feedback on what they like and what they don't like and i always ask their opinion because it was always important to me but i never had the time to spend on that i mean you said it was a slow process everything slowing down was it a big relief though as soon as you did decide to take that step um it was a relief but it wasn't immediate yeah because I wanted to do it in the right way like the team I had to cut down I had to move showrooms and downsize and do all the unglamorous things involved in fashion but I then realized that maybe when I was at my peak I wasn't really being my authentic self I would show fabulous photos of collections, but not the reality of the situation of me being unhappy and of like making hundreds of samples and then half of them being like stored away and not used.

49:33And I thought, you know what, when I slow down, I just want to be myself. I want to show, you know, I am working in a tiny studio with two people and I am happy with that. bigger doesn't necessarily mean better for everyone or for for brands yeah I hear a lot at the moment and I see a lot of female run brands which is amazing to see because you know I'm all for that and I'm very much a women supporting women type of person but I can see how growing a brand and being like super successful doesn't always mean happy yeah Yeah, absolutely. Was there a point where you felt things were back in balance?

50:17Yeah, I feel it's been about a year and a half since I've slowed down and probably the past year, it probably took six months to get it into working and find a new rhythm. But the past year, I'd say, has been like one of the best years because I don't have to say no to things to do with family life and my girls. But equally, I don't have to say I don't feel like I'm saying no to work opportunities. yeah and funnily enough I was worried that people wouldn't be interested in the brand or wouldn't want to work with me from slowing down really yes because I wasn't I wasn't Stockton Selfridges anymore I didn't have my own shop I didn't have new collections I didn't have loads of styles ready to buy but amazingly I've I worked with sustainable fabric company they approached me and I was like wow like yes I'd love to and then another ironically like John Lewis who I used to sell to they were like oh do you want to make our bag for life I was like yes like wow that's amazing like being able to work on projects that like I'm really passionate about now yeah in my in my slower slow fashion phase is amazing and I wouldn't call it a phase because I don't see it ending but being able to work on projects that promote slow fashion and and environmentally friendly is important to me I'm still on a journey I wouldn't say I'm fully sustainable yet as a brand because it's quite a long process but I'm working on getting like my b corp I'm trying to cut out as much polyester as possible being transparent about factories and where things are made all of that has hand in hand become much more important to me it must be amazing as a mum for your kids to be able to see you flying but I wonder if it's even more useful for them now to see you slowing down and reassessing a phrase we've been saying a lot in our household is it's okay to change your mind yeah and actually my husband came up with that and he says it a lot but it is and I remind them as well it's okay to change your mind yeah even if it means it has potential negative connotations like if they've it could be from anything small to signing up for something a club that they don't want to do or you know something more major like I did like completely changing my business and it's something that I often think of when I'm in doubt like it's okay to change your mind yeah absolutely uh you thought you were going to be an anxious mum yes so what kind of mum are you now well I can't I can't lie and say that the anxious no no the anxiety has definitely died down yeah I would say that I'm a more present mum whereas before maybe physically I was present I was always like thinking of work things to do on my phone on my laptop and although my daughters would say I probably still am on my phone a bit I'm much more present with them yeah and that's important to me like I want to hear what they have to say when they come home from school and not be like busy typing on my laptop so hopefully I'm there for them more if you could write a letter on motherhood who would it be to and what would you say I would think I would have to write it to myself 10 years ago because I feel like I've come such a long way from then but equally I feel like it would resonate with a lot of women now who maybe are experiencing those feelings but can't vocalize them don't know what they are and are scared to get help so I think I would write a letter telling my my new mom self go and get help talk about these thoughts with someone phone a friend it's normal it's okay and there There is a way out and you don't have to do it alone.

54:50I mean, I managed to get out of that darker time when I was having those internal turmoil. But if I hadn't have done it myself, I often think what would what would have happened? So it's by getting rid of the stigma about talking about feeling. Do you feel like that? I know we were saying how back then that conversation was being had. do you feel like the fact that it is being talked about a lot more now do you feel like it's somehow healing in some way definitely I even I was driving along the um the an a-road the other day and I saw like a big sign about you know postpartum anxiety and numbers to call like it's a lot more talked about now and I actually think that's a great thing it can't it can't do it can only do good for more people to to know about it yeah absolutely um we end the podcast with you completing three sentences the first one the first one is being a mum means being a mum means being the truest version of myself being honest and being present like I said before since having children i since having children i feel like i'm being pulled in a million different directions yeah i mean as as you know there's there's never a dull moment there's always a drama it never stops those everyday phrases that you're saying to your friends oh my god I'm so tired.

56:37I think it's just a roller coaster of emotions. And I'm happy when? I'm happy when I'm switching off with my family in a moment. And I think to myself, enjoying something and I thinking, I want to remember this. I want to bottle up this feeling and remember it. Olivia, thank you so much. Oh, thank you. I love this chat. Thank you. I didn't expect the tears, but I get things get emotional here. It does. It does.