Addressing Anxiety and Uncertainty at Work

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0:49Hi, everyone. I'm Amy Gallo from Harvard Business Review. And today I'm talking with Maura Ahrens-Mele, the host of the HBR Presents podcast, The Anxious Achiever. Maura, thank you so much for joining us today. Oh, it's good to be here, Amy. I probably don't have to tell all of you, we are living through unprecedentedly uncertain times, and many of us are feeling anxious. I saw a comment on Twitter recently that someone said that she had broken down in the middle of a Zoom meeting with all of her staff. I talked to a friend who told me that she hasn't slept more than four hours a night since March, since she's terribly worried about losing her job.

1:30And that's what we want to talk to you all about today. Anxiety as it relates to this crisis and our work and our careers. We want to answer as many of your questions as possible. So please chime in in the comments. Let us know what you're feeling, what you're thinking about, what you're worried about. and we'll try to get to as many of those questions as possible. A little bit more about Maura, in addition to being a podcast host, Maura also is the founder of the social impact agency, Women Online, and author of the book, Hiding in the Bathroom, which is a great book. I highly recommend it. She also recently wrote a feature article for HBR, which is available now online called Leading Through Anxiety, and I recommend checking it out.

2:15So let's get started. Maura, my very first question for you is, what are you feeling most anxious about these days as it relates to work and career? How long have we got? So I think for me, I don't know if this is true for you, Amy, my anxiety kind of changes every day. Sometimes it's based on the headlines. So So, for example, yesterday, all this news came out about how COVID may be affecting children. And I have three young children. And so that's where my anxiety went. Last week, I was working through PPP, you know, getting the loan from the CARES Act for my small business. And so my anxiety went there.

3:03I almost think of my anxiety as a bunch of water and it will go into whatever vessel is most pressing or wherever my brain is focusing. I don't know if it makes sense. Yeah, no, that makes absolute sense. I mean, I think that I feel the same, that it's just this fluctuating, a little bit like whack-a-mole almost for me. You know, like one anxiety pops up and I feel like I get it under control. And then another one, like you said, the news about children being affected by COVID yesterday was really, really hard as a mother. You know, one of the things that I'm noticing is that if I had felt the level of anxiety I feel right now six months ago, I would have been really worried.

3:46And I just feel like we all have this heightened level of anxiety. And I'm curious if you think that our baseline has just gotten higher. Are we just sort of accepting that we have higher levels of anxiety? And has our, you know, the point at which we get concerned, has that just gotten higher? How could it not, right? So I think that we're living in a time that for most of us is very strange, logistically, physically. So our entire routine has been disruptive, which makes us anxious. the news is anxious we feel that the people in charge also are anxious and have no idea what the future holds right Dr.

4:32Fauci will say we think it's going to be really bad but he doesn't have a crystal ball so you know as humans we tune in that's what we do we take our cues and when everything that we've built our society Hey friends, Olivia from OLLI between new routines and the ultimate group project known as parenting you need science-backed solutions that work with your life. That's where Oli comes in. Start your mornings off right with Maltese made to support nutrition and immune health. Choose from our lineup of gut-supporting probiotics, and we've got occasional sleep support to help the whole fan chase their big dreams.

5:04Head back to class with the number one gummy supplement brand. Stock up on Oli.com today. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. Propel Fitness Water. With Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar, and vitamins, Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade electrolytes. And our systems around is just totally disrupted. How could we not be anxious? I think what I want to say, though, which is that this feels this level of anxiety is actually kind of normal for me.

5:47and because I have a, I have an anxiety disorder. And if anyone out there watching is like, you know, actually this feels, this feels normal to me. Like I've been waiting for this and it's finally happening. I think you're not alone. You know those of us with anxiety disorders, I don't feel like this 365 days a year, but when I'm in an anxious cluster, I will feel like this. I felt like this last fall for a good two and a half months and the world was okay then, theoretically. Relatively speaking. It all depends on your own anxiety baseline too. Yeah. And you say in the article you wrote for us that those with anxiety disorders were made for this moment.

6:31Can you tell me a little bit about what are the coping mechanisms you've developed that you think make you equipped to handle this? You know, it's interesting and that sounds flip, but I think that those of us with clinical anxiety can sort of take heart in a way that finally everything we've been preparing for might have a use because when you live with anxiety, you may rehearse through several of your worst scenarios, right? Right. So if one of your worst scenarios is I'm going to not have I run a small business, I'm not going to have any new business coming in because people don't like me. Right.

7:18That might be your anxiety thing in normal times. Well, I better have a plan B. Right. Right. And you may have through the plan B. You may have you may have a thing where you stockpile food and supplies. I did. I talked to one woman who said, you know, my friends always made fun of me because I was always the person who had like 87 flashlights and enough food to last me three months if I needed to. And now I have that. And so in a way, the rehearsing for worst case scenario planning that those of us with anxiety tend to live with every day now has a channel that we can put it to. towards. Well, and it's almost like all that worrying feels justified in some ways right now for folks.

8:06And I've definitely heard that from - Which is a terrible thing, right? It is. It is. Objectively, you know, okay, wait, this is, I didn't really want this to happen. I mean, it sort of makes you step back and look at your relationship with your anxiety. Right. But in many ways, I have felt less anxious at times during this pandemic than people who have never felt anxiety before because I'm used to feeling uncomfortable and scared. That's interesting. So for those of us just joining, I'm Amy Gallo, editor at HBR, and I'm talking with Maura Aarons, merely host of the HBR podcast, The Anxious Achiever, about coping with anxiety.

8:42We want to answer as many of your questions as possible. So please use the comments, let us know what's on your mind. What are you most worried about as it relates to work and your career? So Maura, I want to ask a little bit about those coping mechanisms. We actually have a question here from Ashik from India, who's talking about getting back to work, but feeling lazy, and it's hard to innovate or focus with everything going on. Any advice for people who are just really struggling to stay focused, to stay motivated, especially when anxiety is really weighing on them? Well, thank you for your question.

9:20And Ashish, I feel it. I think it's really helpful to think of your brain as a computer CPU. Hey friends, Olivia from OLLI. Between new routines and the ultimate group project known as parenting, you need science-backed solutions that work with your life. That's where OLLI comes in. Start your mornings off right with Maltese made to support nutrition and immune health. Choose from our lineup of gut-supporting probiotics and we've got occasional sleep support to help the whole fan chase their big dreams head back to class with the number one gummy supplement brand stock up on ollie.com today these statements have not been evaluated by the food and drug administration this product is not intended to diagnose treat cure prevent any disease propel fitness water with gatorade electrolytes zero sugar and vitamins propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self what propels you propel with gatorade electrolytes.

10:15Right? You only have so many gigs in your brain. And the crazy thing about anxiety is it uses up a lot of your hard drive. It's like when the computer starts overheating. Because your planning, all the things that you might normally apply to creativity, to planning your day, to all your work life is being used instead for your anxiety, right? All the what-ifs. And so what I find really helpful is I'll say to myself, you know, brain, let's open up some CPU, right? I know that we're scared and I know that there's a lot of what ifs and there's a lot of things to think about. But today, between 10 o 'clock and 5 o 'clock while I'm at work, I'm going to open up my CPU for the work that I need to get done.

11:11You know, it's a little bit of mindfulness mixed with a little bit of cognitive behavioral techniques. But if you can literally see your brain as that hard drive that you need to clean out, you might be able to free up some time to focus when you need to. And then say to your brain, OK, brain, after work is done, I'm going to worry. I'm going to go back to the what ifs. I can even imagine cleaning out that CPU. I love that metaphor. Helping with that could be writing down, what am I worrying about? I mean, I think one of the things I find is that in the past nine weeks, when I've been really anxious about something, I've sort of kept it.

11:52I feel like I keep it right here in my chest. And I think, well, I'm just going to keep it there. I'm just going to keep it there so I can focus, or I can be a mom, or I can clean the house, whatever it is I need to do. But then it just sort of, it keeps taking up that space. And so I find I need to get it out. And that might be writing it down, talking to my partner about it, right? Just sort of getting it out of that wherever it lives in your body at that moment. Well, you're right, because it is living in your body. And when it's living in your chest, it's hampering your breathing, which makes you anxious, right?

12:26Because you can't breathe well. And it's affecting your voice. I did an interview, it hasn't aired yet with Poppy Jaman, who's an OBE in the UK, which means the queen has named her. She's a wonderful person and she's a big mental health advocate. And she said that over the years, she has learned that she literally puts her anxiety in her throat and her jaw. And so she'll find if she's anxious at work, she can't talk as well. She can't project her voice. it literally affects her work and so the reason why I love the idea of freeing up your hard drive and taking it out of your body is that you want your voice you want your breath you know you want it doesn't at work and so I love the idea of writing it down Amy you told me once that you have a worry hour I don't know if you want to talk about that yeah yeah that works for you yeah well I'm I am fortunate to live with a therapist who actually gave me this trick which is that, you know, there's, I just decide on a time, you know, some oftentimes it's like seven to eight at night after dinner, but not close enough to bed that it'll keep me up.

13:34But it's just where I give myself permission to just worry and think through what are the things I'm really worried about. And it does clear that hard drive. As you said, it sort of gives, gives me more space. And I mean, I think one of the things about holding my anxiety and my trust is the other thing is I, at the beginning of all this, I was also noticing I was starting to mimic symptoms of COVID. So I was feeling this tightness in my chest or short of breathing, of breath. And I realized, oh, actually that's anxiety, not symptoms. And I think that's one of the things that's been hard to decipher between all of us because we are so much worried about our physical body.

14:15Hey friends, Olivia from OLLI. Between new routines and the ultimate group project known as parenting, you need science-backed solutions that work with your life. That's where Oli comes in. Start your mornings off right with Maltese made to support nutrition and immune health. Choose from our lineup of gut-supporting probiotics, and we've got occasional sleep support to help the whole fam chase their big dreams. Head back to class with the number one gummy supplement brand. Stock up on oli.com today. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.

14:45propel fitness water with gatorade electrolytes zero sugar and vitamins propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self what propels you propel with gatorade electrolytes the anxiety is manifesting itself there but then also mimicking things that we're we're anxious about well and anxiety is a full body reaction right? Not everyone may manifest their anxiety the same physically. There's no one way. For some people, it goes into their chest. Some people put it in their jaw and their neck. Some people hunch over like they're physically protecting themselves.

15:24Some people get a lot of gastrointestinal symptoms. There are a million different ways. I get a twitch in my eye here, which is annoying. But I say in the article that really understanding your tells is powerful. And that's what Poppy was basically saying is she calls it her stress signatures, which is very elegant. What are my stress signatures? Right? Right. So for those of us just joining us, I'm Amy Gallo, editor at HBR. and I'm talking with Maura Ahrens-Mele, the host of the HBR podcast, The Anxious Achiever, about coping with anxiety and uncertainty at work during this time. We will be answering as many of your questions as possible, so please keep posting them in the comments.

16:12We have a question from Vanessa from Brooklyn who's asking, is it worth meditating? Which I think is a funny question. I'm sure meditation teachers would love to hear that question. But I actually, I wanted you to address this question because I have tried really hard to meditate. I'm not a regular meditator. I'm a, you know, sort of an in and out when it works. And I have found it nearly impossible to do right now. So I'm curious your take on that as a coping mechanism. Oh, Vanessa, I love that question because I feel that those of us who are anxious achievers probably are like, darn it, I'm a bad meditator.

16:51I have to be a good meditator. I got to conquer this, right? Because it's like, whatever we feel that we should do, and we can't do that well, it just is another thing that we have to master. So I would love to tell you that being a good meditator is not something that you need to ever put on your CV, right? And that you need to let any pressure to be an expert meditator go, especially at this time. I think that meditation is overwhelming to a lot of us, but what I love to think of are little mindfulness tricks that I can use in a heartbeat. So the computer CPU thing that I just mentioned is actually meditating.

17:36Does that make sense? And for those who may have just tuned in, we had a question about what happens when you're working or you're heading to work or you're going back to work after being out of work for a little bit because of the pandemic and you can't focus because you're so anxious. And I said, well, you know, sometimes it's helpful to think of that anxious brain as an overtaxed computer hard drive and you've got to free up some gigs. And so I have a, I have a program called Clean My Mac and I love, it's a little cute pink icon and I click the icon and it gets all the junk out of my Mac. And so you could literally think, I'm going to clean the anxiety out of my brain for a little while.

18:21That's a meditation. Yeah. Taking two minutes to breathe meditation. If you are the kind of person who is very anxious, but it might work to say, but you know what? I'm healthy and I'm grateful for that. That's a meditation. It's anything that pulls you out of the worry spiral, opens up a little bit of space to put in a different thought or a different energy. So take the pressure off yourself. You do not need to sit cross-legged on the floor for three hours. Is there a trick that will work for you or a visualization?

19:28because visual... prevent any disease propel fitness water with gatorade electrolytes zero sugar and vitamins propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self what propels you propel with gatorade electrolytes measures are very powerful for people is there a song you can sing i have talked to a lot of people who have a singing meditation so that when, and I actually try this with my son, if you're in a spiral, is there a verse of a song? It just is anything that interrupts the cycle. That's my mind. You know, it's what you're reminding me.

20:06I'm actually going to show you all. I have this post-it I put, this was pre-COVID, but I put it up here on my desk because it's a friend's daughter's school. This is the mantra they say every morning. And it is, my body is calm. My heart is kind. I am the boss of my brain and my mind. And for me, it's the thing that I go to like in these moments, because, you know, often my stress is here sitting at my desk, getting emails, talking to people. It's that thing where I go to when I have that feeling in my chest, my tail, as you call it, Maura, I look at that and I read it. Sometimes I even say it out loud to myself.

20:44That's right. It's whatever works for you to recapture the space between the anxious feeling and the fear response. Yeah. So I want to talk a little bit about anxiety and work. And we have a great question from Leticia from Chicago, who says, how can I communicate to my manager that I'm struggling with anxiety? I think this is something so many of us are facing. We, we've seen everywhere, everyone's feeling more anxious, but we don't actually admit that to the people we work with all the time. What advice do you have for her? I think the fact that you're asking the question is the first step because you're in touch with the fact that you're anxious.

21:24And so I just applaud you for that because knowing that this is going to be something that you're going to bring with you to work is really important. And I want to give a plug actually to Dr. Ellen Hendrickson, who has, she's a psychologist. She has an article in our leading with anxiety package about, I actually, I have it here because I love it so much. And it's when I, when anxiety becomes unbearable. So the thing I would ask you, Leticia is, you know, is your anxiety bearable? Do you think that you can get through the workday with some hiccups? Yes. Or is it, is it really bad? Because that's a question that you have to we're all in a very fragile state.

22:08So honor yourself by thinking, can I go back to work? If the answer is, I'm okay, I may have some moments during the day that I need to address. Then I would think about, you know, and I don't, it all depends, again, on what kind of relationship you have with your manager, what kind of culture it is. But I think it's really okay to schedule some one-on-one time with your manager right now and say, you know, this is a tough time. I've been having some big feelings. If there is something in your life that is making you extra anxious, you know, Ellen talks about in her article, my sister is a nurse in New York City, she's on the front lines, or, you know, I have a kid with asthma.

22:56If you're comfortable saying that to your manager, that might help them understand more in a visceral way. You know, and saying, you know, I'm excited to be here. This isn't going to impact my work. But, you know, a lot of us may be having feelings right now. And that may prompt your manager to say, gosh, you know, I've been anxious too. This is a really tough time. But I think it's okay to do that if you feel like that's the kind of office you have. I've also gotten questions from people who've said, we don't even acknowledge any emotion in my office. The idea that I would go tell my manager that I'm anxious is like telling them that I have four heads.

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25:16you need to put in place for yourself to be able to get through the day. And whether that's having a therapy session that your boss doesn't need to know you're going to therapy, you know, building in time to take a walk, you know, really, I call it your critical infrastructure. having peers you can talk to having a safe person to talk to making sure that you're taking care of yourself if you're not going to get the care at your office yeah well and I think that's I do think many people work in places where it's not possible to talk about these feelings or to say you have anxiety you know whether it's the organizational culture or the regional culture are just very taboo in some places still.

26:04And, you know, I like the idea, I go back to the CPU comment of like, can you clear your CPU from 10 to 5 or 9 to 5 or 9 to 6 whenever you need to be focused on work? And then as you say, find people or resources to help you with anxiety outside those hours. Right. It's got to go somewhere. I think where we get into trouble is that we, and this is extremely common, right? That's why therapy is a booming business where, and as is massage therapy and body works, you know, we don't allow ourselves to feel the anxiety and put it anywhere. And so we put it into ourselves and in our bodies. And that can be really hard.

26:43What I wanted to say is mental health stuff is taboo in our success driven culture, because we see it sometimes as being weak. I see it that way. I see it as being strong and in touch with yourself. But, you know, a lot of organizations are very much command and control. Never let them see you sweat. This is how we roll. I think that now everything's different. I mean, I was reading an article in the New York Times yesterday about how some of the biggest, most corporate companies in Manhattan are saying, we may keep our workers remote as long as we can. The idea that you could be a power player at a Manhattan law firm and work from home was anathema four months ago.

27:31And I know because people, lawyers would call me up in tears saying, I just want to work from home one day a week, but I'll never make partner. So things have changed and there's any silver lining in this. It's that maybe now is the time where we could talk about how we feel. We all feel anxious. Yeah. So we actually have a question from Sharif from Egypt, which is very relevant to what we're just talking about. How do you see the role of leaders in addressing their employees' anxiety? Oh, well, thank you. That's my favorite question.