Building a Company While Battling Depression | HBR IdeaCast

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0:55Welcome to the HBR IdeaCast from Harvard Business Review. I'm Alison Beard.

1:06Most of us put on happy faces at work. We project a positive attitude, even when we're sad. We act confident to mask our imposter syndrome. We pretend we've got it all together, even when things are falling apart. Sometimes that can be okay, in a fake it until you make it kind of way. But too much faking can take a toll. And in a world where we're increasingly encouraged to be open and honest and bring our authentic selves to work, why shouldn't we be talking more transparently about mental health? Why is there such a stigma around these issues? Today's guest is here to talk about her own struggle with depression, which she managed while raising six kids and building a$500 million toy company focused on bringing more joy into the world.

1:52She'll explain how she finally found the courage to talk publicly about it and what she'd like to see individuals and organizations do to protect and promote mental health. Melissa Bernstein is co-founder, along with her husband Doug, of Melissa and Doug. She recently launched a new initiative called Lifelines and released a memoir called Lifelines, an inspirational journey from profound darkness to radiant light. Melissa, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for having me, Alison. I'm so honored to be here.

2:29So we're going to get into some dark topics today, but let's start with the light and success that was your toy company, is your toy company, Melissa and Doug. How did this company come to be? That's such a fun story. You know, Doug and I always say, actually, he says, because he's the funnier one, we conceived a company out of wedlock because we founded our company when we were just dating. We were actually 22 and 24. And, you know, right out of college, we had followed the conventional path because in those days, you know, you didn't up and start a toy company. I mean, that was unheard of. And you didn't start any company.

3:16You basically studied something in college that would become your career, and you got on that treadmill, and you rode that treadmill to the end of your life. And we believed that, and we followed convention and started doing that. And pretty much about it, maybe just a few months into it, we both realized we didn't know where our meaning was. And we had a hard time getting out of bed and feeling like we were doing something worthy and that would touch the world, you know, in a way we wanted to. So we decided we would go away for a weekend to a bed and breakfast. And we wouldn't leave until we decided what we were going to do that lit us up.

4:00Great. So you decided on a toy company. And then how did it become a success? gosh i mean that took many many years you know we tried a number of different pathways that really were i guess you'd call them failures until we started to find our legs and i think the first light we saw was when we had a brainstorm for something we called a fuzzy puzzle you know it was based on just a talk we were having while driving in the car about our favorite childhood toys. And we both kind of said, huh, wouldn't it be amazing if there could be a puzzle with texture? And I think that was our first sort of little bit of aha.

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5:20Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade electrolytes. That we could take a dull, boring, lackluster category like puzzles that had never been reinvigorated from like the first designs that came out maybe 100 years prior. And that we could take that type of timeless category and inject some pizzazz into it. Yeah. And that was hugely successful. You went on to launch more wooden toys, do arts and crafts, make believe, etc. etc., bringing all this joy to so many kids. Were you struggling with depression at this time?

6:05I mean, I was born existentially depressed. So, you know, this wasn't triggered. It is who I am because of my overexcitabilities that enable me to create from the boundlessness of white space. My, my blurst, my blessing and my curse is I have this highly overexcitable personality. And I think one of the overexcitabilities is intellectual. One is imaginational, emotional. So there are five of them, but, but those really give me my ability to create, but also make me really sad about the realities of life and our existence. I always suffered from it. But what I did, you know, it was so dark and threatened to submerge me for so many years that the only way I'm still here and the only way I was able to survive was to repress and deny and disassociate from all the darkness and the demons in my head that told me life was futile and I should just, you know, end it.

7:08and really anchor to a facade that was everything's fine, everything's great, and became this high achieving perfectionist that I rode right into middle age and denied even from myself that I was suffering from such despair. Now, we know that startups are particularly difficult for mental health because it's all nighters, it's many ups and downs. did you find that things got worse during that period that you and Doug were really building the beginnings of the company? You know, I think having Doug was the best thing ever. Because, you know, I'm a cup half empty, he's a cup half full. And I definitely couldn't have done it alone.

7:59I mean, I was terrified of taking risks and failing when we started Melissa and Doug. And of course, becoming a product designer cured me of that very quickly. But, you know, the fact that I had him, I think, made it so we were in it together. And it actually wasn't that part wasn't interestingly, it wasn't challenging at all. And I think because I was such a soldier and fought through so much, I mean, fighting through existential nihilism, there's nothing harder. It's like you're fighting through quicksand every single day. And I hid that from the world. So starting a company, to be honest with you, was actually easy compared to that.

8:42And I think the years that we built Melissa and Doug and raised our children, in a sense, it sounds crazy, but they were the easiest years because I had so much going on in my life that I couldn't think. And thinking for me is a very bad thing. You know, my brain is a prison and it takes me down really quickly. When I have to do and put one foot in front of the other and like make it happen, it really is somewhat comforting for me. Right. And you were so successful with that soldiering on mentality, the damping it down, just ignore it, just keep going. So when did you decide to drop?

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11:00I was hiding it from everybody because to admit it would have been to accept myself in totality. And I had never accepted myself for being this dark, churning person that was rejected by conventional society my whole life. You know, anytime I showed a shred of my despair, or my curiosity, or my hypersensitivities, people were like, you are weird. And I didn't want to be weird. Like I wanted to fit in more than anything. Uh, and I, you know, my favorite toy as a child, we didn't have a lot of, of, of funds for toys, but I had a Barbie and like, I wanted to look like Barbie. I believed you should look at like Barbie.

11:45I wanted to be popular. I wanted to have Ken as my boyfriend. And like, I wanted to fit in. I couldn't like, no matter what I did, even when I tried to fake it, it felt so hollow. So I, you know, I was trying to be someone I wasn't. And it broke me in middle age because I reached a point where I knew I couldn't do it any longer. And one day it was like the final straw. It sounds dramatic, but I truly like cracked. And I realized that day that I can't do this any longer. It sort of just hit me. And a couple of dots, to be honest, had started to connect that made me see that I actually was afflicted with a condition called a name.

12:33And I wasn't alone. And actually, others who were afflicted with the same condition were beautifully creative. And I started to see that maybe my creativity had another side of it that left me with this sort of burdensome personality. And I started to see that the very thing that gave me the ability to create was the thing that I had tried to deny and depress and kill my entire life. So tell me about how you began sharing this with other people, you know, your family, your coworkers, and then eventually the broader public of Melissa and Doug customers. So I had two dots connect that were really profound.

13:18The first that I mentioned that I suffered from existential despair. And the second that I had what are called overexcitabilities, which is a heightened arousal of your central nervous system, which makes me feel more acutely 24-7 than some others. And it tends to show itself in highly creative people. And when I realized this, I knew I had to share it. And so I decided to come out, so to speak, three years ago on a podcast. It was a bunch of really deep soulful people that talked about their deepest, darkest secrets. And I felt like that audience would be really receptive to my message. It was a big delay between recording and airing.

14:04So I forgot that I had even done it. And I almost didn't believe I had because no one knew, including my family. And I only knew it aired because I truly had forgotten.

14:41Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Propel Fitness Water with Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar, and vitamins. Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade electrolytes. Forgotten, it aired when I started getting letters. And I'm not talking one letter. I'm talking hundreds of the most soulful letters ever saying things like, I'm sitting on the subway sobbing because you gave words to the ineffable in my life. And you are talking about exactly what I've experienced.

15:24And I knew after maybe receiving 50 letters, I knew that this is how I needed to spend the rest of my life. Because, you know, all the people who wrote me and I ended up having conversations with most of them and really talking about these, these stigmatizing qualities that they had never admitted or shown to the world. They said to me, Melissa, like, I feel so, so, so akin to you in what I'm feeling. But the difference is you found your channel out of darkness, I have not helped me to find the light. And I knew that if someone who was in the darkest despair ever and carried around, you know, a bottle of pills for a year, wondering if she should end it, if I could find my way out, I knew I could help others do the same.

16:17So that was really when the genesis of lifeline started. Tell me about the reaction within your company. You know, you are this senior leader, the founder, the chief creative, who I'm sure everyone looks up to and probably assumes it has the perfect life. So how did people react internally? I think the reaction of the company mirrors the reaction of people in general, because obviously they're just people too. You know, there's such little discussion on how we respond to people who admit they have a mental health issue. You know, there's so much work done on grief and what you say when someone passes on to someone who's suffering from that, but very little in mental health.

17:01And I would say it goes one of three ways. Either people completely ignore it, and they're really like, you can tell they're very uncomfortable. And, you know, even when I'm walking in town, like, they'll look at me, they'll look with horror, like, oh my gosh, it's her, it's the depressed lady. And I'll see them like, put their eyes down and kind of like run across the street. The second, which I get a lot is they'll look kind of very, they'll look uncomfortably at me, get the courage to come over and then sort of pat me awkwardly and say, I'm so sorry, which is, I can laugh at now, but you know, when people said that to me as a child, if I ever let it out, you know, sorry means they pity you.

17:49And when someone says they're sorry, it means something's wrong. And then the third, which is the most beautiful reaction is when someone comes over and they're like, oh my gosh, Melissa, this is so incredible. And I want you to know that, you know, I feel you. This is something I've struggled with. I want to become as courageous as you in doing this. And I am on your team, whatever you want me to do, I'm here for you. And that's when I just like, I smile and I'm, and that I get emotional, you know, and I say, thank you. Yeah. And as a senior person in an organization, how do you move your employees, your team members to the latter reaction?

18:34It's very, it's very simple. You know, all we can do is show our own light, shine our light and show our vulnerability. That is, and I wrote a verse the other day. It's, I can navigate your journey, but can't wear your backpack too, for you wouldn't learn the lessons that enable real breakthrough. And, you know, that's what I've learned. Like, all I can do is share. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes.

19:18Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. Propel Fitness Water with Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar, and vitamins. Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade Electrolytes. My story and show my own vulnerability and show people, you know, I think one of the greatest lessons I can show people is that this elusive pursuit of happiness we're all striving to achieve that leaves us all feeling inadequate is a lie.

20:05There's no such thing. You know, society sets these unattainable standards for us, and then sort of laughs at us when we can't, you know, attain them. And we end up every single one of us goes through life feeling unworthy and incompetent. And it doesn't discriminate. You know, I felt the exact same way as the person who's, you know, struggling on welfare. Like we're all the same when it comes to that. And I want to be the face of someone who says, I wanted to have it all. I went for it all. I wanted to have a huge family. I wanted to have a$500 million business. And, and it's not perfect by a long stretch.

20:46I don't have no balance. So don't think there's balance. I am definitely not happy all the time. I have lots of issues with everything in my life, but I'm still leading a really fulfilling life. Despite the fact that I have existential despair and I struggle many days, I'm really glad to be here. I'm really glad I tried to have it all. And I know now that being imperfect means it will not be roses every day. Right, right. And so it sounds like you're saying this mental health work certainly starts at the individual level. But what can team leaders, colleagues, bosses at the top, CEOs, what can they do to encourage more people to share and de-stigmatize these issues?

21:43Yeah, it's very simple. It's share their truth. Don't put on the facade yourself. If you can be honest about your struggles, others will do so the same. Everywhere I go now, people stop me. People that were wearing the facade and they say, Melissa, I want to share a story. And they tell me a story, like their whole life story. Because, you know, I shared my truth, and they now feel that they have permission to do the same. It's so simple, yet we're terrified to show that our life is messy, when it's the truth. And that's why I want to go out as far and wide as I can and say, I am leading a messy life.

22:30And it's awesome in its messiness. And I'm not, you know, I'm not trying to say otherwise. So all of you too can lead your messy lives and know that you're not underachieving. You're not failing. You're doing exactly what you should be doing. And should they give employees opportunities to talk? You know, should bosses, when they sense that someone is feeling down, when they sense that it's sort of been a long period of feeling down, Should bosses be proactive about soliciting that sharing moment from their team members? They absolutely should. I really think that, you know, it's going to become, and what I'm seeing, to be honest, just in the response from Lifelines, which has been nothing short of overwhelming.

23:22I mean, there may be after COVID, there may be no one who doesn't suffer from some form of mental illness. You know, I don't know anyone who hasn't had tremendous anxiety in the last year. So I think in a way, you know, if there is to be any blessing in this last year, it's it has, I think, made our walls a little less. Hey, it's Kelly Rowland. You may not know this, but I have eczema. So I get how it can steal your time. But why let eczema take over when you can talk to your doctor about eczema? Ebglis, Lubrikizumab LBKZ, a 250 milligram per two milliliter injection, is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema.

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24:47and given that opportunity to talk about things that we didn't talk about. I, you know, as the head of a company, I would really make these discussions every week, you know, an hour a week, like, and even as a leader to say, open door, come in and anything you want to talk about, I'm happy to talk about. And, you know, at Melissa and Doug, when we were in the office, people would come in all the time. They'd always have this look like, I know I shouldn't be bothering you because they felt bad doing it. But I was like, come on in. They'd say, can I speak to you for a minute? And I always knew it was going to be something about the work, motherhood balance.

25:28And the minute the door closed, they would just start bursting. They'd burst into tears. It was always something that was going on in their lives. And when they felt seen and heard their despair. I mean, it didn't go away, but it, but they felt so much more comfortable. And I would always say, if you need to go out, you know, and, and, and get some air, if you need to take the day off, like do it. This is much more important than your job here. It never went the other way. Like they appreciated it and they did what they needed to do to, to, you know, to heal themselves. And sometimes it took months.

26:09And, and that was just fine. Like they still were able to be productive members of our team. And what about mental health benefits in organizations? What would you like to see there? Oh, my gosh. I mean, in our society, we have such an epidemic and so few people that can afford good care. So I think, you know, something dramatic needs to change so that people can receive the help they need. And, you know, I, one of the criticisms, of course I get all the time and I'm so open to it because I know it is Melissa, easy for you to say, like you have access to good mental health benefits. And I do, I have like the best therapist in the world who really helped me through.

26:58And so many of the people I speak with say, I can't afford a therapist or they, or even the ones that can, they say the therapist I can afford, it's a three month wait. And I don't know if I'll make it till tomorrow. And at the moment, at least in the United States, you know, corporations need to provide that since there's no universal healthcare. They really do. They really do. And now, you know, co-pays, the benefits end at a certain level. I mean, it's really tragic for a lot of these, because a lot of these conditions, they're not fixed with 30, 60, 90 days. I mean, these are lifetime conditions that you need, you know, a long period of therapy to overcome the patterns that have developed in decades.

27:49Unfortunately, they're not quick fix, you know, so there aren't quick fix solutions to them. Yeah. So now you've moved from wearing two hats, mom, and your title is chief creative officer, but now you're the founder and leader of lifelines. So are you going to keep sort of balancing all three juggling all three? I absolutely am, you know, and Doug, thank goodness is my partner again with lifelines. So he is shouldering so much of, of that as well. Um, but yeah, you know, I, the truth is I love all three so much. I mean, obviously I get joy out of being a mother. I love nothing more than creating toys.

28:34It is literally like, you know, my salvation and there's nothing, uh, there's nothing more profound than connecting with someone who has always felt alone. Like it brings such bomb to my soul. and I cry with these people. I mean, you know, to, to make someone who's in the darkness feel like someone has seen them to me, there's no greater gift. And they say that to me. I mean, they're, they're sobbing and they say, do you know, I haven't felt seen in some of them say 10, 20 years. And you, you know, you, you understand why they're so depressed. I mean, they've basically untethered themselves from any sort of human connection.

29:20So I feel like responsible for all these broken souls that long to find light, but just can't quite figure out where to dig for it. Yeah. Well, I'm glad that you found your light. I hope that many more do. Thank you so much for being with me today. Oh, thank you, Alison. That means so much to me. That's Melissa Bernstein, co-founder of the toy company Melissa & Doug and leader of the initiative Lifelines.