Former Jamba Juice CEO James D. White: Empathy Is a Talent That Can Be Taught

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1:09Hi, I'm Adi Ignatius, Editor-in-Chief of Harvard Business Review, and this is HBR's The New World of Work. We're on a new season. Our first two episodes have been amazing. Week one, we talked to Ryan Ruslansky, the CEO of LinkedIn. Last week, we talked to Deb Leo, the CEO of Ancestry. We have another great guest this week, and I will introduce him in a second. But first, I want to read a word from our sponsor. Where some see barriers, Unisys sees breakthroughs. Unisys pushes what's possible across digital workplace, app modernization, cloud, and beyond. Unisys, keep breaking through. So our guest this week is James White.

1:54He's the co-author with his daughter Krista of the book Anti-Racist Leadership, How to Transform Corporate Culture in a Race-Conscious World. James has also led a long and successful career in business. He served as CEO, Chair, and President of Jamba Juice from 2008 to 2016, where he led an impressive effort to reinvent the brand, which we'll talk about today. And prior to that, he held executive positions at Safeway, at Gillette, at Nestle Perina, at Coca-Cola, and others. And he has more than 20 years' experience on a number of boards, including currently at the Honest Company, where he serves as chair.

2:32So, James White, welcome to the show. Adi, thrilled to be with you. All right. So let's – you know, I want to talk about some of the themes in your book first. And I think there's a useful definition for our audience. So, again, you wrote this book, you co-wrote this book with your daughter about anti-racist leadership. But I think for some of our viewers, the term anti-racist, anti-racism, it's kind of commonplace. I think some people may not quite understand what it means. Tell me what it means to you.

3:04James D. White:I think for us it means a couple of things. It's really about being human. It's about creating opportunities for all. And one of the CEOs we interviewed for the book, Todd Snooks, is a retailer in my hometown of St. Louis. Their platform around this work is unity is power. We stand against racism. And I think that kind of sums up the way we think about it. And it really requires action from a leadership perspective. So it's less about what you say and what the definitions are, but what you do every single day. And the example we share in the book, Todd and his team focus on this work every single week.

3:59James D. White:and as his chief diversity officer and Todd as CEO and the chief people officer and one operating executive on the team and something that I think is unique. I sit on that board and as a board member, I'm engaged with the team on a monthly basis. We've been doing it for two years, have no intention of stopping that process. So again, I think this really exemplifies how we thought about the work in the book. One of the other things, Adi, if you don't mind, I always read the first paragraph of the book, which really does a great job of kind of summarizing how we think about it in total. Yeah, no, please, please, please.

4:45James D. White:Yeah, so this is the first paragraph of the book, and I'll share a bit of a backstory. This book is not apolitical. This book is explicitly anti-racist, pro-black, pro-LGBTQI. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required.

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5:52James D. White:A plus in feminists. This book takes the stance that Black Lives Matter, that LGBTQIA rights are human rights, that people of all abilities deserve respect and access, and that people of all genders have the right to sovereignty over their bodies and identities. This book acknowledges that capitalism is built on a foundation of systemic racism and that to have a truly diverse and equitable and inclusive work environment, we must acknowledge the historic and present injustices faced by marginalized people. A bit of the backstory on that paragraph, my daughter, Krista, who worked with me on this book, comes to me June 1, 2020 and says, Dad, I've got a different way to start our book.

6:41James D. White:You know, so as we're working through the process, she comes to me with this program, and it's unedited, you know, from June of 2020. This was just following murder of George, the tragic murder of George Floyd. We review it with some of the members of our team, and one of the members of the team says, James, you're a mainstream business person. Do you care if you ever work again? You know, so I'll just let that kind of soak in for the audience. And the answer obviously was, you know, this is who we are. This is what we stand for. This is really an important part of the conversation. And I think the magic of having Chris, that she really saw the importance of this even before I did.

7:30James D. White:And I'm grateful. So that's really powerful. I mean, look, I mean, Colin Kaepernick took a knee and he never played football again. I mean, it's tough out there. I guess, you know, I would guess there's some people who are listening to this who would think, all right, I'm supportive and I want to be an ally, but, you know, talking about sort of the past and sort of denigrating the past, I'm not comfortable with that. I'm not comfortable with somebody telling me that I am the beneficiary of a situation that is inherently racist or something like that. What do you say to those people who are potentially allies but uncomfortable with some of the rhetoric?

8:13James D. White:I think we've got to start where you are. And I think if we all take ourselves, and again, the example I gave of Todd Snook, that CEO took himself on a learning journey as he took his organization on a journey to learn. You start where you are, you take small or large steps to move yourself to the future. But much like the platform of this program, the new world of work, anti-racist leadership is going to be required moving forward. I think we're going to have to understand it. And I think in In particular, you've got a couple next generations in your workforces, millennials and Gen Zs that are going to hold us accountable to it.

9:02So if you just joined us, I'm speaking with James White, the former CEO of Jamba Juice and author of the book, Anti-Racist Leadership. Full disclosure, that is a book published by HBR Press. I, you know, if you're watching this, if you have questions for James, please put them in the chat. Or even if you just want to tell us who you are, where you are, you know, please interact with us. And one other quick plug, if you like this content, we do have a New World of Work newsletter. Go to hbr.org slash newsletters and you can sign up for the New World of Work newsletter. So, okay, so we've talked about anti-racism.

9:39Tell us what does an anti-racist organization look like if it gets to that stage?

9:49James D. White:Yeah, I'd share it in a number of examples. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required. Compatibility and availability varies 18+. Trading at Schwab is now powered by Ameritrade, giving you even more specialized support than ever before.

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10:48James D. White:Examples of leaders and companies that I think are really on the journey of doing this work. One of the examples we give in the book is we talk about TargetSource. Their CEO, Brian Cornell, has been out front, committed to the work, has made significant investments around, you know, Black entrepreneurs and the work that they need to do there. And they're actually one of the better practitioners today. And he's been forthright on the need that they have to increase the representation of black leaders inside of Target. And they do the work. They take the action. They do the work. Another example is Bracken Darrell at Logitech.

11:42James D. White:He's focused his organization on significantly improving the diversity of their supplier network and ecosystem. And they've been very aggressive in and around their work. Those are two good examples. And my favorite example of an anti-racist report, a chief diversity officer is Libra Clemens at Twilio. And they've got an anti-racist report that they do each year on their company. And I think she does a beautiful job of kind of laying that out. So you're old enough to have lived through several cycles where, let's say, U.S. corporations at least became focused on the need for diversity, the benefit of diversity.

12:35And companies did what they do. They created incentives to push executives to achieve better levels of diversity. And then some of these movements have lost steam. We're in a movement right now. What do you think? Is it different this time?

12:51James D. White:I think it's different in a couple different ways, but I think there is still more work to be done. I think the language of this conversation that we're having, even the fact that I could publish a book titled Anti-Racist Leadership and find myself invited to sit on more boards and be active and have discussions with CEOs and corporate leaders. So I think the fact that we're talking about systemic and structural racism and that's a discussion happening in boardrooms and inside companies, I think that is different. I think there is a movement to change the overall diversity of how companies are governed from a board perspective.

13:41James D. White:I believe that is different and will be a sustainable change moving forward. And I think most importantly, the prior change has always been kind of housed in the human resources function. There are CEOs, many of them that are really out front leading this work. And this is work that I believe that has to be led from the C-suite. It can't be delegated because this is really the work of culture. All right. So give us some advice. What does a responsible CEO do to push DEI to push an anti-racist agenda? I think the first thing they do is they try to listen and learn, and they just take account of their organization, you know, where they are.

14:36James D. White:And then they chart a path that says we want to look at every process or system that touches humans. and we want to make those.

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15:44James D. White:People systems from hiring to onboarding to how people get promoted to how we get compensated. We just want to make them fair and available for all so that we can leverage all the available talent in this very challenging marketplace. They focus on ensuring that their programs are sustainable. And the way you do that, in my opinion, is you make sure that you focus on the middle management of the organization, which is often referred to as the immovable middle or the frozen middle. This is the place where if you're going to drive sustainable change and build an inclusive culture where the heavy lifting work has to happen inside the corporation.

16:33James D. White:And, you know, the final point is this is not an event. I gave the example of Todd Snook, who is invested and involved on a weekly basis on this work. And at least in my business experience, anything that matters, you measure it and it's baked into the strategy and you work it on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. Yeah, I love that. This is not an event. This is an ongoing part of the business. So usually I go to questions that come in at the end, but there's some coming in right now. And I'd like to raise a couple. So this is from Stan in San Francisco, who says, you know, what is one thing that sets back leaders who are still learning to be anti-racist?

17:18James D. White:I think the one potential area where people get sidetracked is, you know, if they have misstatements or just the discomfort of knowing that you're in a learning mode. We're all learning. This is going to be an ever-evolving topic. This is not anything that any of us learned in business school. This is about people and human beings and taking action to create an environment where we all can thrive. The best leaders know that it's a daily part of the work process where we're all going to be in a mode of learning. I'd love to talk to you about your background if you're comfortable doing so. You know, as a starter, to what extent did you face the kind of discrimination, racism that you're writing about in the book?

18:18James D. White:Yeah, I think there's a couple of points that I'd make. You know, my background, working class background, St. Louis, Missouri, is where I grew up, was the first member of my family to graduate from college. And, you know, a couple of the one of the stories that I'd never shared before 2020, my first job out of college was with the Minute Maid division of Coca-Cola. I had a selling territory that would have been largely in southwest and southeast Missouri. Missouri, my first week of work, because the territory went into Arkansas, there was a portion of the territory that needed to be carved out because the headquarters of the Ku Klux Klan set in a part of my territory.

19:12James D. White:You know, so think about, you know, 22, 23-year-old first job. No one in my family has been in business. And that's kind of where you're, you know, you're excited you're working for one of the best companies in America. And that's one of the things that you face. And if I step back, you know, a few decades later and look at my entire territory, there are towns called sundown towns where it's unhealthy to be black or brown kind of after dark. And I remember.

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20:41James D. White:A situation going into a supermarket and the manager said, James, we heard you were in town and we just suggested you're not here after dark. And if I look at my selling territory, it would have largely been sundown towns. You know, the removal of the one part of my territory is an extreme example, but probably most of that territory would have been sundown towns. And, you know, this is where empathy is required. If you, if you're sitting in the audience, and you're, you're wondering how you'd navigate this situation at the start of your career, and, you know, I've had a really successful career, but for that to be my starting point, you know, in this journey, there were many, many places, you know, for derailment in that process.

21:39James D. White:The other example that I share, I talk about never being promoted based on potential. And I've had many promotions and lots of fantastic opportunities and a really blessed career. But I share the first time I was promoted to vice president, it was a situation where I've been passed over a few years prior and started to rise. I was at Nestle Purina, started to rise in the organization and ultimately was promoted to vice president in our commercial operations. But by the time I was promoted, I was running 70 percent of that operation at the time. So that was an easy promotion. And one of the concepts that we talk about in the book is people that are coming from underrepresented backgrounds, in my case, black, you have to prove it again and prove it again and prove it again.

22:41James D. White:And really the message is for leaders to just take that necessity out of how they build their corporate cultures, how they think about succession and talent, but just to be aware of it. So the book is kind of a blueprint for how organizations can be better in these aspects, But I want to come back to your personal situation. That's tough. I mean, you know, how do you, I guess, how do you, how do you, what's your advice for people to build that resilience, you know, when sort of, you know, horrible things happen to you because of the color of your skin? You know, in your case, as you're beginning a career, that's tough.

23:23I mean, how do you, what's your advice for people? How do they, how do they keep going? How do they be resilient?

23:27James D. White:Yeah, I think the main thing is you've got to have a true north. I happen to have just fantastic parents that, you know, had me grounded in working hard. I'd say really the best lesson that I learned on the journey is really investing in my own education and development and being a lifelong learner. learner, you know, in addition to having the grit and kind of the focus and determination to be undeterred by various challenges. And at the end of the day, do you consider yourself, you know, a classic American success story or would you use a different term? I think I would be an uncommon, I'm an unlikely public company CEO.

24:18James D. White:If you think about my background and the journey of an unlikely public company board chair. But what I hope we are able to catalyze with some of the thinking around the book is that this uncommon story becomes a more common story as we have more leaders and organizations. Dave Portnoy here. The wait is over. Football is here and so is DraftKings. DraftKings is now live in all 50 states. One app, every sport, nationwide.

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25:49James D. White:They're focused on building for all environments. You know, just to, you know, to hearken back to the Snooks example, the unity is power. We stand against racism. In my mind, that should be an easy statement for any of us to make. And I think the benefits as we think about the future of working these next generations, I submit it's going to be a requirement. So here's an audience question. This is from Alexandra in Boston. What was it like to collaborate on this book with your daughter? What did it mean to you to write this with her? It's the most special work that I've done really across my career.

26:37James D. White:I had a chance to really learn. learn, you know, through her eyes. My daughter, Krista, was really just doggedly determined, you know, for us to call things what they are, to really try to deliver an ultimate work product that would catalyze the kind of discussions that we've been having and make a bit of a difference in the world. And just the intergenerational lessons that we learned across the project were just fantastic. And we're actually learning more as we take this book out into the world. And what's been the response to the book? How has it changed your life, I'd say, both positively and negatively?

27:29James D. White:It's been really all positive. We've been invited in front of incredible audiences of CEOs and corporations. Lots of folks in my networks have invited either one or both of us in. The funniest thing is we've got really many folks that are now inviting Christa without dad to many of the conversations. And that's been really exciting to watch. But it's been really all positive. And we think we're catalyzing a discussion that will represent meaningful change. So I do want to talk about your years at Jamba Juice. You know, you led a, I don't know what you call a reinvention or a refresh or something like that, that touches on some of these topics.