Getting Along with Difficult Coworkers (Live in Boston) | Women at Work | Podcast

23:55Amy Gallo:You know, there's no objective measure of how good a leader you are. So we often rely on people to tell us how good they are. And that leads to the know-it-all, the overconfidence, to people actually saying things that they firmly believe that they actually don't. So you say we reward that. What are those rewards? Is it just that we're too dumbstruck by their arrogance, or what is it? A little bit, yeah. We are dumbstruck by their arrogance. And we believe that because they say they can do something, that they can. We forget to actually test whether they can. So they say, this is never going to work, or I'm confident our customers are going to love this new feature.

24:37Amy Gallo:And instead of asking for the data or the facts or underlying assumptions, because they're so confident, we believe them. Okay, so how should we deal with that? Okay, so facts and data are your friends here. When someone proclaims something that they're absolutely certain about, if someone starts mansplaining something to you, And I have to say, we use that term mansplaining so flippantly now, but we have to understand that the costs of that behavior are incredibly detrimental. We undermine others when we demean them or talk down to them or are condescending to them in front of others. So there are real costs to these behaviors we have to keep in mind.

25:18Amy Gallo:Okay, but back to facts and data. So when someone actually proclaims something and they're so certain about it, one of the questions you can say is, oh, that's interesting. I don't think we have the same understanding. What are you basing that opinion on? That puts them on notice that they just can't proclaim things. They have to actually have facts and data. And if they say, well, I know it because of this and this and this, say, that's awesome. Can we look at the data? And if you don't have data, okay, can we actually run some experiments to make sure that's correct? That may be correct. I just would like to know whether it really is.

25:53I was once in a little bit of a debate in a meeting with someone who tried to shut me down by saying, I guess I'm just burdened with too much knowledge about this topic. Quote, unquote. Wow.

26:12Amy Gallo:Okay. Yeah. And that might have been my response. I did. I did wow a bit. And I may have I may have guffawed. But what would have been a constructive way of engaging? I think saying, oh, wow, you know, okay. And even saying, that's interesting. I think we all have a ton of knowledge on this topic, right? Or, oh, that's interesting. What kind of knowledge are you bringing to bear here? What's the basis for that? Because then you sort of start poking holes in that overconfidence. One thing I will say about any of these archetypes is oftentimes the way we interpret difficult behavior is through our own biased lens.

26:50Amy Gallo:So sometimes women in particular get blamed for being a know-it-all when they actually have knowledge. We just are uncomfortable with a woman asserting herself as an expert. So you have to also be careful that you're not labeling people with these archetypes or with these labels just because you're not comfortable with that type of person exhibiting that type of behavior. Okay, let me just ask you about that. What if you are a woman and you are picking up that someone is labeling you and know it all? Yeah. How do you handle that? Yeah. Well, this is, again, facts and data are your friends. So you can talk about why you believe you have this knowledge.

27:34Amy Gallo:Now, that doesn't mean you hand out your resume at the beginning of the meeting and say, I'm going to be the expert here because of all of my qualification. Instead, you might find ways to talk about, well, you know, when I spent five years doing X, I learned this. Find ways to make clear that you have the credentials that you're claiming to have and that allow you to speak knowledgeably about the topic. Wow, that is going to be so difficult for so many of us. Yes. And so I have a workaround. If you are uncomfortable doing that, you can also find an ally who can help verify your credentials in front of others.

28:11Amy Gallo:So actually find someone who can say, I'd love to hear from Amy on this because she's been in editing for 20 plus years. She's burdened with so much knowledge. That's right. Let's unload some of Amy's burden and hear her knowledge. Yes, that's exactly right. Yeah. And this is true for many of our responses, either whether it's to being labeled a difficult person or it's in response to a difficult person. We do have a narrower range of acceptable behavior for women. And so oftentimes we have to rely on others to help us gain that credibility, to assert ourselves, to actually counteract some of the bias that we might be experiencing.

28:54So that seems like a really good strategy. How do you bring that to life? Do I say to Maureen, sitting over there, so Maureen, I'm a little bit afraid of what, you know, Mr. Burden of Knowledge is going to say to me. Would you please stand up and say that Amy has four PhDs in this topic? Or how do I do this?

29:14Amy Gallo:Yes, that's exactly it. And it can be helpful to find someone who you suspect is also suffering the same bias, right? So if you get interrupted, instead of you having to say, I'm speaking, have Maureen, who would do this on your behalf, I know she's a kind person, say, Amy was talking, I'd love to hear what she has to say. And that turns out to be a really easy thing to do. Yes. And you just agree with Maureen before the meeting, hey, we're getting silenced. Let's stick up for each other. Yeah. Or I get the sense they're doubting my expertise. Could you say something about my credibility in this area?

29:50Yeah. You write a lot about how important it is to have that pal in the office. And I think this is where it comes into play. It's important for a lot of reasons. Yes.

29:59Amy Gallo:I do want to say something about that because all of you raised your hand a lot in thinking about these difficult people. Show of hands, how many people actually have at least one great relationship with a coworker? Yes, all of you. Exactly. These people are hugging. That makes me so happy.

30:18Amy Gallo:So remember that. When you're dealing with that difficult person, it is incredibly stressful. It can ruin a day. It can ruin an entire stint at an organization like your nemesis did. But you probably have many more positive relationships, and those people can be your allies either in counteracting that difficult behavior or in just helping bolster your confidence, bolstering your mood. Those are the relationships we want to turn to in these moments of stress, even though our negativity bias really makes us focus on the bad behaviors that we're seeing. so we're going to go to questions from you guys don't be afraid to ask about difficult people in your life and amy will handle them hi thank you so much for the advice so i wanted to ask you how to deal with the insecure boss who might take credit of your work and they're trying to kind of control your workflow limiting your interaction with other people in other departments basically isolating you in one little corner and just do your thing and just keep you in a need to know basis.

31:33Amy Gallo:So do you have a boss who does this? Can I ask? Yes, please. He's not here. So there's a couple of things with an insecure manager. Number one, unfortunately, research shows that genuine flattery helps to calm their ego. So if you can find something they're actually really good at, point that out, and they have to truly be good at it. Sometimes that calms what we think of as like ego defensiveness in the sense that they have to really protect themselves or protect their territory, that can calm that down a little bit. It's not fun to do. And it's a tall order to ask someone to do that. But that can help put them in a better frame of mind so that you can do some more of the aggressive calling out.

32:18Amy Gallo:I will say anytime you're dealing with someone who has more authority than you, maybe has control over your salary, your work opportunities, you do want to do a risk assessment of what are the risks of me calling out this behavior? Or do I risk damaging the relationship? What will happen? At the same time, you want to also do a risk assessment of what happens if I don't speak up about this? So in your case, you're not getting exposure. You're not getting visibility. You're not getting credit. Those are really big risks. And that might counterbalance the risk of maybe possibly damaging the relationship.

32:56Amy Gallo:So what does that actually sound like? You know, you might say to your boss, I want to make sure we have a conversation about how we get credit for the work we've done. You're not saying, I want the credit. You don't want to set up a tug of war. But how do we get credit for what we've done? You might even do something as simple as, next time you present to leadership, can I create a slide that has the list of everyone who worked on the project? Make a simple suggestion, offer to do it for them. Or next time you present about the project, I'd love to join. Can I come sit and on the meeting? Just gentle questions.

33:30Amy Gallo:Do you think you could do that? Yeah, I actually tried some of them. And I think it helps him to be a little less guarded. But at the same time, the positive change that I've seen in him is very small. And I'm trying to have that positive conversation with him, call out some of the things that he's done really great. but it's been months and I'm getting to the point where I'm a little bit anxious about this and less patient. So I wonder, like, how can we keep having this one-on-one conversation with him? Or should we somehow strategically call out once in a while in a bigger group? I don't know, just to see how he responds to it.

34:09Amy Gallo:Yeah. One of the things I strongly believe in putting any of these tactics in place is that it has to be an experiment. You have to put on your scientist mindset and say, OK, I'm going to try this tactic. Let's see what works. So you're seeing incremental, minor improvements with the tactics you've tried. Maybe calling them out in front of the group will have a different result. Now, there's risks to doing that. And you have to be prepared for those risks. But you might learn a lot from that situation. And so certainly I don't think there's anything that would hold you back from trying that and seeing what you learn along the way.

34:49Amy Gallo:I will also say that incremental improvement is actually a huge success when it comes to difficult people. I think we think we're going to put these tactics in place. I mean, I think about your nemesis. Like if you had called her out, would she have just been like, oh, my gosh, I've been horrible to Amy B. No. Right. No, she would not. And is your boss going to say, you know what? I've been mistreating this team member because I feel insecure, right? No, we're not going to get that level of self-awareness. So you're really looking for small improvements. At the same time, you have to also set limits of, I'm going to try this for six months.

35:28Amy Gallo:If I don't see, you know, these three things change, then I'm going to start looking for another job in a different department. Or I'm going to find a way to talk to that person's boss and make sure that they understand the work I'm doing. And that's the other thing with an insecure manager who's sort of putting you in that corner. Try to make connections in other departments on your own, of your own initiative. I would inform your boss and say, hey, I'm meeting with so-and-so in this other department. I want to hear about their work. I'm going to share what we're doing, right? Let them know so they don't think you're maneuvering behind their back, but make sure you make those connections so people know about the good work you do.

36:06Thank you.

36:07Amy Gallo:You're welcome. So let's go to this side now. I'm hoping to get a little bit of advice when you're dealing with a certain individual that I think difficult is an understatement, where they are passive aggressive, they are, you know, a know-it-all and all of that to the point where almost bullying in the office and setting a toxic culture, which unfortunately is what I have at my work now that I've been at for almost 10 years and I've just seen it turn completely dark, where this individual is in a different department they're at the top of their department I'm in a completely other world but now the people who report up to him are coming to me to vent and I don't know how to deal with it and navigate that do you have any advice you can give on yeah so we we call this on the podcast team the hot mess right like the the person who's all of the archetypes and you read those behaviors you're like check check check to one quick question do you have to deal directly with this person are you just dealing with the venting that's coming?

37:06Amy Gallo:I deal with the venting and I deal with the person sometimes. Okay. And when you say bullying, can you just give me one example? Of course. So texts our CEO to say that somebody is watching Seinfeld at their desk when they're not watching Seinfeld or making fun of my name. I'm also Canadian, so he mocks my accent. So things like that. Okay. Yep. You're dealing with a toxic heart mess. So there are a couple of things. Research shows those people are very unlikely to reform their behavior. So I'll talk in a minute about how to protect yourself from that behavior. But in some cases, those people do respond to authority.

37:46Amy Gallo:So you might consider escalating the issue and highlighting it to someone who can do something about it. Now, the key phrase there is someone who can do something about it. So we often think I'm going to escalate to their boss or I'm going to escalate to HR. But do they have the skills and the motivation to actually address the behavior? And usually the answer is no. So do not escalate to someone who you know is going to be inept in actually handling it. If you do have someone, and is there someone you could escalate to? Unfortunately, I think it would just have to be our CEO. Right. Yes. Okay.

38:23Amy Gallo:That is an option. If I were the CEO of your company, I would like to know that someone is accusing people of watching Seinfeld at their desk or mocking someone's accent. I personally would want to know that. And you might go with a few people so that you don't look like one disgruntled employee, but there are several people. When you do escalate, you want to make sure you're clear the impact to the business, that this isn't a personal vendetta, that you're not just hurt feelings, although I think hurt feelings are important and should be valued, but oftentimes people in charge want to know that there's an impact to the business.

38:58Amy Gallo:So that's one thing I would make sure. And I would also, starting now, I would have you and the people who are venting to you document as quickly as you can these behaviors. Day, time, what happened, how you responded, what the response was. Because that documentation is going to help you if things go south or sideways. The other thing I think you really need to do is start protecting yourself. So listening to your colleagues venting is kind of you, but you might also figure out ways to not focus your time and energy thinking and talking about this person and create what some experts call a microculture.

39:34Amy Gallo:So if this person is creating a toxic culture, can you create a team of people? Maybe it's you and one other person. Maybe it's five people where you actually agree that's not the culture we're going to adhere to. We're going to treat one another with compassion, kindness, respect. Then you've got that protective bubble that you can go to when you need a reprieve from the toxicity. And ultimately, I think you said you're at this organization for 10 years. Has he also been at the organization for 10 years? No, half that time. That's five years of a long time with a hot mess. So I also think you, you know, ask yourself, is the behavior becoming so detrimental to my ability to do my job, to my sense of self-worth, to my well-being, that I want to look elsewhere.

40:23Amy Gallo:I will never advise someone to quit their job if they love their job, but I also don't think you should stick it out in a situation that's toxic and is not going to change. Does that help? Absolutely. Thank you very much. Thank you. So we'll take the question over here. Yeah, so I think this is going to add on to the last question as well. And I want to thank you for sort of describing the torturer because I think for those of us who have had to deal with those personalities, just having that name is is helpful so I've had the um experience by the way I just have to pause for a second you called them the torturer not the tormentor and I like that maybe that's what's in my okay they torture and torment this is that's true you feel tortured yes the tormentor um for the past kind of 15 years and that kind of mentor turn um tormentor relationship and what she does is that she doesn't like to meet with us as a group, and she's gone into a leadership position, and recently her best friend is now our leader above that.

41:25But she plays the political game very, very well and manages up very well. And then also doesn't like to have meetings with everyone present. She likes to have individual meetings. You know, keep close, you know, we're gonna fly in close formation. So it's very much like you're in that inner circle or you're out. And so it really pits people against each other, And so it creates this very hostile work environment where people just do not feel psychologically safe to say anything because you never know what anyone else is thinking. You know, we're trying to demonstrate for younger people in the organization the right way and the right culture.

41:58And I love that idea of setting kind of your microculture. But are there mechanisms that you can go to with, you know, the right way to go to more senior leadership who are very well aware of a lot of these issues but yet have allowed it to persist for, you know, a decade or more?

42:15Amy Gallo:decade or more. So what makes you believe that senior leaders are aware of this? Because there's been direct conversations about that behavior. And I think there may not be knowing to the extent and sort of what that does to people's well-being and their work efficiency and just their lives. But there's definitely are aware. It's sort of like, how do you, as you're getting into a more senior position yourself, or you really want to set the stage, for those, for your colleagues and those who are coming up so that you can really change that culture. Yeah. Can I ask, why do you think the senior leaders haven't done anything about it?

42:58You know, I think it's a great question. I think they don't know the extent potentially of the damage that it's causing. I also think if you have someone who's like very charismatic and manages up really well, you know, they're obviously benefiting in some way by that individual being there. But it's a little unclear, but I think most likely just that they are benefiting in some way. And for them, the risk-benefit is better for that individual to stay.

43:26Amy Gallo:Yeah. So a couple things I'll say. One, you may be doing them a favor by actually, or not just you, but you and others together might be doing them a favor by raising their awareness of the impact it's having. and, you know, making clear this is not necessarily about her. This is about the business and the impact of the business. And this is what we're seeing. And we want to make you aware of it. That is incredibly hard to do. And I do want to point out that there's the risk of you becoming labeled the difficult person in doing that, right? So that is something you have to consider in the context that you work in, the culture.

44:05Amy Gallo:Will by calling out the behavior or escalating it, will you get labeled as the difficult person? So that's something to keep in mind. I do think the concept of microculture would be important. And you talked about trying to set the tone for the people coming up below you. And I think really trying to be clear, explicit about what norms you want to operate with, right? On this team, we work towards psychological safety. We trust one another. We have open dissent and debate. We are kind and polite to each other, but that doesn't mean we don't have conflict. Laying out what are those norms and writing them down, making them clear, asking the people coming up, the younger folks to actually contribute to those so that it's clear you're going to operate differently.

44:57Amy Gallo:One of the benefits of these microcultures is sometimes they gain the attention of the senior leaders. And they see, oh, that team over there actually is doing really well. People are wanting to work with that team. They're hitting their targets. They're exceeding their targets. And they might think, okay, how do we get more of that and less of what I'm hearing over here? So I do think that can help to really set the stage of this is how we want to interact. I would love to tell you that going and reporting this to someone in authority is actually going to do something, but I'm getting the sense from just the nodding and shaking of your head that you don't feel that will work.

45:40Amy Gallo:Is that right? I think you're exactly right. And I think you try and you're scared to do so. And others want to support you, but they're also scared. and you do run the absolute risk of retaliation and also of you being labeled the difficult personality. And I think that's been really the challenge of navigating this environment for a long time. Thank you so much. Take a question over here. Hi, thank you for being here. For those of us who had arm fatigue at the start, and as we advance in our careers, there's often a tension between having experienced so many of these behaviors from managers and transitioning into management and leadership yourself and how to be effective and still give direct feedback and achieve your goals with this constant voice in your head of fearing that you're becoming one of these archetypes.

46:29And I was wondering if you could share some strategies for how to either maintain your confidence so you don't err into that category of the unconfident, you know, emerging supervisor, or how to kind of give yourself a gut check? And is it really that I am a, for those of you here who identify as female or other identities that have often been made to think that they're less than, is that what's operating? Or am I really veering into territory where I may be out of line? And how do you navigate that?

47:00Amy Gallo:Yeah, right. So you're talking about how do you navigate what often people call imposter syndrome, right? Of, oh, I'm not cut out for this. Maybe I'm really horrible at this versus natural insecurity, which we all feel, by the way, and if you don't, you're part of that lovely group we call psychopaths, right? So you do feel some insecurity. Is that healthy insecurity that's going to help you reflect on how you want to do better? I'm not sure you're ever going to know the difference. So I would instead focus on what actions you can take. A couple things. One, write down your values. Think about those managers that really were difficult for you, the things they did, and what you want to do instead, right?

47:44Amy Gallo:I would even like fold a piece of paper in half and just write on one side, these are the things they did, these are the things I want to do instead. And that can help you hold yourself accountable. Maybe once a month, once a quarter, you look through, am I doing these things? The other key piece is to find trusted advisors that can give you frank feedback, right? A lot of times we'll go to someone and say, how am I doing? And they'll say, you're doing great, right? And we love those friends that are like, you're such a good manager. It would be a gift to be on your team. But you want the friend who's gonna say, you're really good, but you know what you do?

48:20Amy Gallo:Here's this one thing. You're a know-it-all. Like you interrupt people or you tend to veer toward negativity as opposed to positivity. You could inspire your team more, right? You want to find those people who will tell you like it is. Do you have those people in your life? Yeah. And I'm very lucky too. And those conversations can be kind of painful. Yeah. But you definitely straighten up after that. Yeah. Here's the other thing about imposter syndrome. Everyone feels it. If they don't, they're the know-it-all, right? But everyone is always thinking, I'm really not sure I'm cut out for this. So remember those feelings are normal.

49:00Amy Gallo:use that to inspire you to get better as opposed to question yourself and surround yourself with both people who will tell you what you're great at and bolster your confidence and also will tell you the frank feedback that you need to get better one tip and actually it's a tip in the book when you're dealing with an insecure manager but i think it works really well if you're also not sure of yourself which is to keep a and i have one of these in my email a compliments folder so anytime someone sends you, even if it's like, great job on that project, or I loved how you presented that, file that way in a folder.

49:36Amy Gallo:And when you're having a day where you're like, am I really cut out for this management thing? Look at that folder. And remember, you are doing many things well. You're probably not doing everything perfectly, but guess what? You're human. Well, I'm afraid we've come to the end of our conversation. I think now everyone understands why you, Amy Gallo, are everyone's first advisor. And I hope everyone goes out and buys this book and reads it. I learned so much from it. So thank you. Thank you. This has been so fun.

50:13Amy Gallo:If you'd like to learn more about how to work with anyone, check out the four other episodes that are part of Women at Work's Getting Along series. They're in our podcast feed. You can also order my book through HBR's online store, Amazon, or your favorite bookstore. Women at Work's editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoke, Tina Tobey-Mack, Rob Eckhart, Erica Truxler, Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates. Robin Moore composed this theme music.