Have You Started Thinking About Retirement? | Women at Work | Podcast

25:10Ann Bundy:I thought of guilt when I got to be in my late 30s and thought, oh gosh, I haven't put a cent away. So as much as I agree, it's never too early. I also think it's never too late. So if you're sitting there going, oh no, I already messed it up, right? It's like, no, no, just start now. Just start now, right? That's right. I'm so glad you said that. That's exactly right. So if you are 40 years old and you haven't put a dime in, go. You must begin. It's not too late. You have to begin. And so no matter your age, start thinking about it and start getting help. And don't despair. Don't despair. Just go get some help.

25:46Yeah.

25:47Ann Bundy:Audrey, what was your experience with the financial piece? Well, I wasn't as good as Donna. I'll tell you that. But one thing I know my dad and my mom would say early, and I didn't do this until later, but they said, pay yourself. When you're paying your bills, pay yourself. And I was like, what do you mean pay myself? Pay yourself. If you can't get around the idea of saving, then look at it as you're a bill and you need to pay yourself. Right. One of the other hurdles I had to get over, because you both have mentioned financial advisors, as I remember in my late 30s thinking, if I'm going to start saving, I need someone to help me do this.

26:30Ann Bundy:I don't know how to do it. And I was embarrassed to reach out to a financial advisor because I had more debt than I had savings. And I thought, who would want to work with me? Like, I don't have any money. But one of the things that was really helpful when I did find someone who I felt comfortable working with is he told me, no, no, it's about future. This isn't about what you have right now. He's like, we're working on your future. So I'm not judging you based on what you've done. I'm judging you based on what the decisions you make going forward and I'm trying to help you make those decisions That's exactly right.

27:03Ann Bundy:Um aside from the financial and investing right now any other advice you would give People who are you know, 10 20 30 years out from retirement So that they're ready to make the transition you all have just made. Yeah, you know You said something at the very beginning about many times we think of retirement as the end of something And I would encourage everyone, no matter where you are in your career, whether at the beginning, the middle, the end, to really think towards retirement as the beginning of something and to plan for that, the beginning of a new phase of your life. Don't just take for granted that it's all going to work out exactly the way the back of your mind thinks it will.

27:54To really have a plan, whether you're a planner by nature or not, it can be the beginning of something fantastic. And while I admit to having a smidgen of an identity crisis, that's one small part of what I'm experiencing right now. It's the beginning of what I hope to be a really fantastic part of maybe 35, 40 more years. I'm young, I'm in my mid fifties. Right. And so, yes, it's the end of what has been an amazing career. But it's the beginning of something fantastic and a new phase of my marriage, a new phase of maybe a new part of a career in executive coaching, a new phase of my parenting of my boys.

28:39And I have grandchildren in Ohio and so much newness, but only if only if you plan for it, right? And it can be so much more wonderful if you give some thought and intentionality about it. And so you want to plan for it now. You want to think about it and jot down what would bring you joy and bring you a lot of happiness in new phases of your life. Exactly. Exactly.

29:06Ann Bundy:Well, and it's not just a new, I'm hearing, what I'm hearing from, or what I'm taking away, I should say, is that it's not the end, it's something new, but it's also a return. It sounds like it's for both of you a return to what you really value and care about in life. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I agree. Yeah. And that just makes me so hopeful. So thank you both so much. Oh, yes. Thank you so much. This has been both a joy and cathartic as well. Absolutely. Audrey, it was good to meet you. Good to meet you too, Donna. Amy, thank you. It was great to hear two firsthand perspectives of what this process is like, especially just a few months out.

29:50Ann Bundy:Yeah, it was so good to hear their stories. And of course, we had more questions. So when we were thinking about who else might help us better understand how women are retiring these days and how we can prepare to make that transition ourselves, Anne Bundy came to mind. I know her because for over a decade, she was part of the same executive coaching network as I currently am. She spent much of her career advising individual leaders on their careers and also teams of people on how to best manage big, complex projects and changes. A few years ago, she applied that knowledge and those skills to writing a practical guide to retirement.

30:28Ann Bundy:It's called Encore, Living Your Life's Legacy. The book covers everything about preparing for life after work. And then a few months ago, she retired herself. Anne, thank you so much for joining me today. Oh, it's my pleasure, really. So you have both personal experience and professional experience then with retirement. I'd love to just pick up on our conversation with Audrey and Donna. Audrey talked about how she intuited it was time to retire. She just felt it and she knew it would be time. And Donna talked about how really financial planning and working with her financial planners drove the decision.

31:04Ann Bundy:how else in your experience do women make this decision? I think that listening to yourself is really number one because everybody wants to offer advice. And I think that you have to really be honest with yourself because I think there's a lot of myths about retirement. And even though I've done a lot of research, talked to tons of people, it's kind of like childbirth. You don't know what it's like until you personally go through it. Sometimes there's external triggers that are making it happen, but oftentimes it's how do we inside ourselves feel and what is it that we want from this next phase of life?

31:36Ann Bundy:Yeah. So when you work with women who are on the cusp or trying to make the decision, what do they tell you that feeling is? Like, what's the voice or thoughts they have that it's really time? I think part of it has to do with the post-COVID workplace and feeling like they're not really getting their groove on and maybe they're feeling a little bit obsolete. Maybe they've read an article by Arthur Brooks, who writes a lot about professional diminishment. And when I read his work, at first I thought, oh, that's so scary, but it really is kind of true. Others, they find their attention wandering and they can't kind of keep up.

32:08And ironically, they don't want to keep up. And so that's kind of a surprise to them. And they kind of keep it quiet because it's almost like a shameful private thing. And what I do know universally is that people want to control the discussion and the actual announcement of it very much themselves.

32:23Ann Bundy:Yeah. What is professional diminishment? I'm not familiar with that. Well, Arthur Brooks, he's done a lot of research and he said that if you look at our kind of natural lifespan, that around 55, 60, our performance starts to go down, even if we think it's not going down. And that's a tough nut to swallow for those of us who have been very much identified with our work, our career, and serving others in our career. Yeah. But if you think about it and you start to really watch yourself and observe yourself without judgment, I think we can see little glimmers of that. And I was starting to see it myself.

32:55And I thought, I do not want to go out on a mistake or have a lapse, but I've seen it happen. You have.

33:02Ann Bundy:Yeah. Must be heartbreaking for those people. Exactly. So how do you architect your own decision-making process and how do you get the support you need so that when you do retire, you feel like it's a really positive experience. But let's be clear, it is a death. It's a death of the way you used to be in the world and your identity. And it takes a while until you kind of reconcile this new version of yourself. Yeah, one of the things that Donna and Audrey really articulated that I found helpful as someone who's, you know, a few decades, we'll see, but a few decades out from retirement is that it did also feel like either a reconnection or a rebirth.

33:39Ann Bundy:And I think that's one of the things you say, it's a death. And I think, oh gosh, that's terrible. I don't want to go there. But that's not the whole story, right? Absolutely not. I think what's so hard for people talking about retirement, it is associated with death because it's the last stop, if you will, in our productive life before we leave this planet. And because our culture is afraid to talk about death, we're often afraid to talk about retirement. And so there's a lot of mystery and shame kind of associated with even discussing it. And during COVID, I did a lot of observing nature, my own and mother nature, and things have to die for new things to come up.

34:12And I think the people that are most successful in their retirement, like what Audrey said, is those who plant seeds to their next future self. So when that old self dies off, you're saying hello to someone that you've already been kind of cultivating and enjoying. Has that been your experience? Absolutely. What seeds did you plant? Well, I knew that I wanted to have the last part of my life be dedicated to the arts. I'd already spent so much of my life dedicated to business and I took a docent training class. So I learned how to be a docent up at a national park where we live and I teach kids how to be at the farm camp and that's really joyful.

34:48I took a fiction writing class and have been writing short stories and taking workshops. I play water polo and I have done that for 20 years. So that was my way to offset the stress. So I'm still doing that. So I felt like I already had a community. I had some intellectual pursuits and I've taken some classes.

35:06Ann Bundy:Yeah. So let's talk about the identity crisis because Donna's very clear and you can even hear the emotion in her voice when she's talking about how she sort of feels lost in her identity. And Audrey's sort of like, no, I'm fine. So I'm curious, are there any indications for how easy or hard the transition will be emotionally? Yes. And I think the clues to look at is how do you identify yourself? So when Donna walks into a room and she hasn't met anybody, I'm guessing that previously she would say, I'm an EVP for XYZ company. And I think if she's trying to bridge from her past self to her future self, she might say something like, well, I'm taking my skills and competencies as an EVP in media and merging that with academic research that I'm learning in my coaching program so that can be an executive coaching service to other women.

35:56So that's bridging her world.

35:59Ann Bundy:Beautifully said. Is that something you recommend people begin to think about before they even decide what the next evolution is going to be? Yes, because it is a huge, huge transition. And I thought I was being so smart. I had my glide path all worked out and it all was different. And I had so much more emotion than I ever thought I would possible. Yeah. And that's actually, I don't know if reassuring is the right word, but that's comforting, I guess, to think even with all the right planning, it's still going to be unexpected. It's still going to bring up things you don't realize it will. My mom retired a few years ago, and I remember the summer after she retired, she was hanging out with a friend, and he just looked her in the eyes and said, you're unmoored.

36:41Ann Bundy:And she said she just started crying and was like, yes, that's what it is. And she had prepared a lot financially. I do think her identity was very wrapped up in her work, and I think that, to me, is an indication that it might be hard. Although I got the sense that Audrey loved her work, identified as an aerospace engineer, but she seems okay. on that front. She does. So her sees that she'd planned her with her church. So she already had a board position. She already was very active in that community and they knew her outside of her professional capacity. I think if all your contacts, and I'm guilty of this, a lot of my energy went into work, my family, and I didn't have that much time for friends and other pursuits.

37:25And so it's kind of a shock to the system. I look back on my calendar, it was so packed and And I would spend my day thinking, how am I going to get this all done? You know, I'll get up at five in the morning. I'll do this. I'll do this or this. And now it's the opposite. You have to create all this structure for how you're going to spend your time. And it is daunting.

37:42Ann Bundy:So I want to get some practical advice for those listeners who are starting to make this transition or think about it. And for example, if you're planning to retire, say, in five years or three years, but you're not ready to tell anyone. You're still sort of making those plans in your head, just figuring it out for yourself. You know, how transparent do you recommend we be with our boss or others at work, especially if they ask us about our future at the company? You know, where will you be in five years kind of questions? Well, I think you have to really look at what is the organizational culture, what is your role, and what are the expectations around communication?

38:21Because I'll put it this way, once the cat's out of the bag, you can never put it back in. And so I think it's really incumbent upon the person that's thinking about this to maybe make a one-page, almost like business plan, of how they would actually make that transition. Because what I hear over and over from all the women I work with is they don't want to leave their organization bereft. And that's very laudable. But also, you don't want to put yourself in a situation where you're squeezed out a little bit early or you lose your opportunity to actually leave when you want to leave. So I think it's a little bit of a delicate dance and I think you have to really pay attention to the nuances.

38:56Ann Bundy:Yeah. And I guess it doesn't even matter if you're going to make the announcement next month, because I hear what you're saying, which is that at some point you start to lose control of the train, right? And it either moves faster or slower than you want. And you really need to maintain your control of the narrative and of the process. Absolutely. By which you leave. In an effort to serve others and serve our organizations, we overdo. And so I think the tendency to overdo and over worry about the organization, I think you need to turn it back to yourself and say, let me really be very clear. What is it that I want?

39:31Why do I want it? And how am I going to get it? And I think asking those three questions are really important. And I really strongly suggest that people that are at the start of this journey get a journal and actually start to write their thoughts and ideas. And one of the things I always did throughout my career, which will help me a lot in retirement is I would do vision boards for myself. And it's kind of like Harkins back to high school when we, you know, to make collages with magazines for those of us a certain age. Drawing or stick figures, where do you vision your life five years from now?

40:02Where are you living? What are you doing? And it's a right brain activity. And for so many of us who are left brain, it's a really good exercise and things pop out that you don't even realize. Yeah.

40:11Ann Bundy:I shared an office once with someone who used vision boards, and it was actually really fun to see where she was and what she was thinking for her future. I'm much more of a spreadsheet kind of person. But those three questions you point out, that can be the beginning of a journal prompt. That can be the headers on my spreadsheet, right? Like there's so many ways to engage with those questions, no matter what type of tool you use. Exactly. So let's repeat the questions for people. It's what do you want? why do you want it which is a hard harder question to answer and then how are you going to make that happen yeah so this goes back to the question you were asking and is how would you let the organization know and what do you say what do you not say so that you've really really clear and honest with yourself because there's a lot of myths around retirement and what's going to happen what's not going to happen yeah you mentioned myths earlier and i want to just pick up on that what are some of the most pernicious ones that you hear that if you have enough money everything's going to be fine.

41:07And that's the most dangerous one. Because if you do not have purpose in your retirement, even if your purpose is self-care, that's a purpose. And I actually, you know, wrote mine down because I would feel more or less too, like your mother, like, how do I judge a good day? What have I learned? And so I wrote down my purpose statement and I look at it when I'm feeling a little unmoored and it says, yeah, no, this is what I'm meant to be doing right now.

41:31Ann Bundy:Yep. Yep. We had a lot of our listeners write in about their experiences or questions about retirement. And I wanted to just share some of what we heard and get your reactions. So one woman who's 60 and is planning on retiring in eight years, she emailed us asking us for examples of how women spend that stretch of time that she's in now. So when you know it's on the horizon and she's entertaining the idea of going part time at some point, just because it seems daunting to abruptly stop, she told us. Any advice for her? Yeah. So I think that taking a page from the millennials and job crafting, how could she look at her current set of responsibilities and maybe make an is-is-not list?

42:13On the is list, this is what I love doing and I want to continue doing. On the is-not, this is what I don't want to do. And is there a way for me to take my current role and make, again, a plan for how to telescope that down to my is list and package it so that it's part succession planning and part an opportunity for me to actually have my glide path to semi-retirement. Yeah, I love that.

42:38Ann Bundy:And that's, I don't know if luxury is the right word, but maybe one of the privileges or advantages of being toward the end, right, is really having that clarity of like, this is what I like to do. And hopefully having permission from those around you because you've given so much in your career to actually do that job crafting, being able to get rid of some of the is nots. Right. And this goes back to the what, what do I want to do? Why do I want to do it? And how am I going to do it? And I think with the why part, you also have to add what's the value creation for the organization, because you can't just make it all about you, obviously.

43:13It has to work for the organization as well.

43:15Ann Bundy:Yeah, right. The is list can't be things that no one else cares about, right? That's right. Okay. So let me tell you what another listener wrote to us. I'm going to read her quote. I'm nearing the end of a 35-year career in human resources and planning how and when to make the leap to post-work life. How do we as women define ourselves if not through our work achievements? Are employers open to phased retirement schedules? How does the fractional or part-time executive fit into the succession plans? For some of us who have lost touch with who we are outside of work, I would invite you to think about your 10-year-old self.

43:51You know, what is it that you love to do when you were younger and unencumbered? And then back to selling it to the organization, I think organizations are way more flexible than we give them credit for. And I think a part-time executive, as long as it's creating value for the organization, that can be very, very helpful, especially if it's paired with succession planning and or mentoring. One of the things that I've learned about millennials and younger people coming to the work world is they really, really, really want mentors. And so if there's a way to be able to make your pitch and say, I may cut back on my executive duties, but here's what I'm going to do and be very concrete about how many people you would take on and what the value of creation would be for them and for the organization.

44:33And that can help ease the transition. Yeah.

44:35Ann Bundy:Well, and what I hear you saying in that answer, Anne, is that just because you haven't seen someone do it doesn't mean you can't, right? You really have to sort of craft the request, back it up with what the value is to the organization, and then negotiate. Exactly. All right. So one more listener question. I'm going to read this quote. I already have a fairly balanced life. I travel, lead a healthy lifestyle, enjoy time with family and friends, and I genuinely enjoy building a values-based business. I don't look at retirement the same way my parents do as freedom and a time to be able to do all the things you couldn't while you were working and looking after a family.

45:17Ann Bundy:So I wonder whether I even want a traditional retirement at the age of 65. This gets to the question of, is this the end? I did get the sense, I have to say, from Audrey and Donna, there was this sense of freedom, even if that's not what they were planning. Any thoughts about that idea of freedom and then also what a non-traditional retirement might look like for this person? Yeah, well, it feels like she's actually did a really good job of doing a values-based life planning. Good for her. And I think that just keeping her finger on the pulse of how she's feeling as she goes through because 65 is different than 67 is different than 70.

45:53So what works for a 65 year old may not work 18 months, two years from now. And just again, to be very honest with herself about that. And also I think what is the definition of freedom for some people? That means having a totally empty calendar on a given day. If that were me, that would panic me. So I think she's got to, again, figure out as an architect of her life now, are there things that she wants to add or subtract? act and is so why.

46:19Ann Bundy:Yeah. You know, listening to this listener's situation, right? It sounds like she's exercising, she's spending time with family. She's doing all these things we know that are great for us. And I get the sense, I'm totally reading between the lines, but that she's afraid of upsetting that balance by removing work. That's something I can relate to, right? Is that it's a very full life, but it feels complete. And so when you subtract work from that, how do you make sure the pieces still fit together? Right. And I think what I'm hearing between the lines is intellectual challenge. And I worry about that for myself because I love solving problems.

46:53I love thinking about new ideas and things. And that's why I had to have writing as a way to exercise my intellectual growth. And I think without something like that, that is really meaningful. Yes, you can do Wordle and you can do crossword puzzles and that's all great and good. But I think either creating something or participating in something larger than yourself, where you actually have to use some of the skills that you've developed so carefully and so lovingly all these years really is important. And I think that's what's important to her. And I think that a lot of us who were working full time, plus being moms, you know, we were like, it's like disembodied heads.

47:31And I think our spirits and our bodies took a hit. And I know a lot of women that I've worked with have exhausted adrenal glands and they don't realize how exhausted they are until they actually stop working and like almost have to go through a detox process.

47:45Ann Bundy:Interesting. Yeah. Well, and Audrey talked about that too, just that being present. She was talking about being present with the people in her life. But I also think being present in your body in a way you probably haven't been. I do feel like my life feels a little bit like a disembodied sometimes of just, you know, barely hanging on and just getting through the day. And ultimately, these are all things I want to be doing. But it's a lot. It's a lot. And so one of the things, you know, is like to kind of do a self-assessment. How am I doing with joy in my life? How am I doing with connection in my life?

48:18How am I doing with my spirituality? and looking at that and being able to say, where do I need to put some love and attention now that I've got more time?

48:27Ann Bundy:Yeah. Anne, this is great. Thank you so much for sharing your advice. This has been really practical and I imagine very helpful for lots of listeners. Well, I hope so. I mean, it's been a real joy and I admire women who've been in the workforce and there's a lot that we overcome and I think retirement can be a great gift, but it takes some planning and I think we have to be able to receive the gift in the right spirit in which it's intended. for us.

48:54Ann Bundy:Amy B., had you heard of this concept of professional diminishment before Anne mentioned it in this interview? No, I'd never heard the phrase, but the idea is one I'm familiar with. My mom, she was in the advertising industry and she finally retired. Her career really just kept going strong well into her 70s, but she finally retired around the age of 76. And I asked her, why? Why now? And she said, because I feel like I'm the oldest fig on the tree. And when I asked her what that meant, she said, people are talking about popular culture and I have no idea who they're talking about. So it's time for me to back away.

49:39Ann Bundy:Yeah. I think there's sort of two elements to that because when Arthur Brooks talks about professional diminishment. I think it's also the mental capacity to do your job, the cognitive ability. And that, I do remember my mom at retirement saying, I want to go out strong. I don't want to go out. And I think Anne says, like, having made a mistake. But then there's also what you're alluding to with your mom, which is feeling not in the loop or feeling. Yeah, like not up to date. Exactly. And that was heartbreaking when she said it, but I get it. But I also think we need to watch out for ageism in that.

50:15Because I think there's the perception that older people aren't in the loop or as capable as they once were. Right. And I do think that there's the part about staying up to date, which does help there. I mean, when you lose the threads, when you don't get the context, that's something you actually can control no matter what your age.

50:36Ann Bundy:Yes. So how do you think about professional diminishment over the next 10, 15, 20 years for you? Well, I still feel sharp and able to do my work. And even saying that out loud just made me feel like about a thousand years old. But it's true. I know you're not going to take that compliment, but it's absolutely true. Oh, shucks. Thanks. But I think about it differently. I don't think about it in terms of professional diminishment. I think about it in terms of my next chapter. I don't want to go out unable to enjoy the rest of my life. Yeah. I want to be able to do whatever it is, you know, whatever those puzzle pieces, however they come together, I want to be able to throw myself into it and do it with vigor and with focus.

51:25And so I really don't even want to get to the point where I ask myself, am I still good at this? You know? Right. Right.

51:34Ann Bundy:Yeah, I mean, I think Donna and Audrey did a great job of making sure they had the energy for this post-work life. And that, for me, is really inspirational because I think I had very much been conceiving of, not even consciously, but very much conceiving of retirement as, like, the end. Like, as Anne says, the next step toward death. And I don't think that's helpful to me because I think it'll, A, make me work longer than I need to. And B, like you say, I won't gather those puzzle pieces so that I have a complete puzzle or at least a sense of what that complete puzzle will look like when I'm ready.

52:12Ann Bundy:And I really need to start. I'm taking a tip from Anne and really start thinking about what do I want? What would I include in this post-retirement life? Not in a like, oh, I'm going to put that off until then, but as a goal of this will be an enjoyable, fulfilling thing to do when I'm no longer working the way I am. Right. So it's not a question of filling time. It's more about what brings you joy. Exactly. And I don't have any answers to that question yet. But Anne and Audrey and Donna have inspired me to at least ask it. You know, when my mom did finally retire, and this would have been 15 years ago, so I would have been around your age, I think.

52:59It did get me thinking about how I would face that turning point in my life. What I wanted to do was not run into the same kind of challenges she ran into, the what am I going to do now kind of question that she was asking herself. And I wanted to look forward, not back. Yes. Because I didn't feel like she had given herself the chance to do that. And so it does help me when I'm going through the course of my days, look at roles as options. So, you know, I mentioned working at the rescue where we got our younger dog. I went there looking to pick up the guy who became Wally five years ago. But I have to admit, I looked around, I saw what people were doing.

53:47And I thought, oh, I could do this. And this would give me enormous gratification. And so I wasn't kidding before when I said what I said. I do think about that a lot. And it has helped me. And that was my mom's work.

54:01Ann Bundy:Well, and I like that you're sort of window shopping. Exactly. Yeah, I like that. And actually, it's funny you say that I saw this movie this past weekend about election workers, which was fascinating. Now that you mentioned, I did have a thought, oh, that would be fun to do in my retirement. It's like to work at the polls every year and there's so much that happens with elections year round. I was like, okay, that's something I could get involved with. In fact, I started doing it during the pandemic. Oh, that's right. So many retirees couldn't do it. That's right. And I wouldn't stop doing it.

54:30It's really, really important. And I'm glad I did it and I encourage you to do it, but it's exactly what I'm talking about. It sort of, it gives you joy. It's also, one of the nice things about this is that it's not 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year. Yes.

54:45Ann Bundy:I like this. Okay. So I'm picturing, we're focusing on you because I still can't fathom retirement, but I'm picturing Amy B, the volunteer at the animal shelter, the teacher, and the pool worker. That's a pretty good life. Yeah, that's not a bad life. And, you know, watching TV, reading books, eating dinner, that actually doesn't sound so bad. Doing your 4 a.m. yoga. Doing, well, maybe we'll switch to the 9 a.m. class. There you go. There you go. That's the joy of retirement, the 9 a.m. class. That's our show. I'm Amy Bernstein. I'm Amy Gallo. If you're looking to hear more about how retirement changes your identity, we recommend you listen to the HBR IdeaCast interview with Teresa Amabile.

55:30Ann Bundy:That's episode number 665. IdeaCast is one of several podcasts that HBR has to help you manage yourself, your team, and your organization. Find them at hbr.org slash podcasts or search HBR in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Women at Work's editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoke, Tina Tobey-Mack, Rob Eckhart, Erica Truxler, Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates. Robin Moore composed our theme music. Thanks for listening and email us anytime at womenatwork at hbr.org.

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