How Do I Define My New Role to Set Myself Up for Success? | Coaching Real Leaders

28:55Can she do the job? Yeah. Okay. So the fact of the matter is you do have a different background. So you could say, yep, I do. But that doesn't mean you can't lead. That's the story part. Yeah. You know, it's funny too, because I have so much evidence now that that is the case, like that I can lead. And I've even had the same technical people come to me a year later being like, you're the best manager I've ever had, you know, and I didn't think this would work out, but it was like, great. And so I have like all this evidence, sometimes I'm just not giving it as much weight. Yeah. And that's your choice, Jules.

29:34How much weight you want to give it. Yeah. How much space, you know, we talked about like how much space is this taking up for you? So it doesn't mean that you forget it and dismiss it and say, oh my God, it never happened. No, it did. But how much space you give it, how much weight you give it. There's a part of like, we all have to acknowledge anything that's happened and it can inform us, but it doesn't necessarily have to dictate what happens next. And so that's the differentiation for you. Okay. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. I mean, here's the thing. What would it look like if every situation you walked into, that's actually the case, that people are like, she doesn't have the same background as us.

30:23How the heck is she going to be able to lead me? What would that look like for you? I thought about my response to this and what I've come up with, I think, is I was brought in to do this job not because I have your expertise. We already have your expertise on this team. It's you. I was brought in to do the thing that this team doesn't have and needs right now, which is help this team gel, helping you guys to build trust with each other, helping you all to gather and collaborate to create a sense of purpose and a roadmap for the team. All of those things I do really, really well. And you all are lacking that right now.

31:07You don't need more people with this kind of expertise. What you need is what I'm bringing to the table. Okay, great. So you have a response or at least a perspective of what you would be able to present or what you would be able to share if you were faced with resistance when you first come in, okay? Now, what if you walk in and they say, you have a different background than us, and that's it. Okay, whatever. Let's move on. What would that look like for you? Yeah, I guess it was presented in kind of a neutral way. I think I would acknowledge that because I actually think that that's a strength of mine.

31:48Yes, I do have a different background than you. And I hope over time, you'll come to see that that's something that can help this team out. I bring a diverse set of perspectives and experiences that I think will really be an asset to this team and i would love to learn more about what you do so that i can figure out how to best help you do your job okay great and i might suggest that there's an invitation to learn from each other because they have just as much to learn from you as you have right yes so that's scenario number two scenario number three is you walk in and the reaction is she doesn't have the same background as us, but man, we are so glad she's here because we need somebody with a fresh perspective.

32:36We need somebody who can bring this team together. What does that look like for you? And what's your response? Well, let's get started. Let's go. So you might be wondering, why did I run you through like those three scenarios? What we basically walked through is worst case scenario, best case scenario. And what you have just shown is that you have the capacity to deal with each of every one of them. No matter what happens, you'll be able to deal with it. So the concern shouldn't be around your inability to deal with what happens. What's really getting at you is the uncertainty about what's going to happen.

33:18Yeah, I think the uncertainty and also the anxiety that the worst case may happen. and that will poke at my soft spot. Yeah, I mean, we all have that, but here's like the big leadership skill that you're building here. You're ready for it? Dealing with ambiguity. Ah, Jules.

33:43Well, dealing with ambiguity again. You know, I mean, the fact is everything's uncertain. We don't really know what's gonna happen tomorrow. tomorrow. We don't even know what's going to happen in the next hour. We think we know, right? We think we know based on what's happened in the past. And so what's happening with you is you feel very strongly. There's a voice that's louder than you want it to be. That's telling you, this is probably going to happen again because it's happened in the past, but we don't know. We don't know. But what you do know is that if it did happen, you now have a plan of action.

34:25You have more capacity than you did the last time around. You actually have a response. That's very helpful. It's so funny because, you know, when you said dealing with ambiguity, like that's also part of what I've assumed as part of my brand as well. It's like I'm great at coming into chaos, managing ambiguity, blah, blah. That's like something I say to people about me. And then yet when I'm faced with this particular piece of ambiguity, I'm like, no, I can't deal with it. Right. Exactly. Well, you can, you just haven't wanted to, you know, you can, you can. So whatever it is that you're doing out there in dealing with like business ambiguity and your team's ambiguity you know what it's easier because there's some distance it hasn't been as close to you right it's out there deal with this the same way if it were out there how would you deal with it yeah so you used a word you know your confidence was impacted in a big way in the past by situations where your credibility for the role was questioned.

35:37Confidence doesn't necessarily come from things going our way. Confidence comes from knowing that no matter what happens, you'll be able to deal with it. So even if things don't go your way, you have to ask yourself can i still get through it you might not like it you might not want it it might not be fun but can you get through it that's where confidence comes from yeah that is very very true yeah when i say it that way how do you assess your confidence then you know it's funny when you said that i had this recollection of this time i got laid off whenever i tell people that story, especially now there's so many layoffs going on that, you know, people are like, what do I do?

36:28Oh, you know, the people are scared and wanting comfort. And I always tell them, like, that was the best thing that ever happened to me. Not only did I recover from it and get another job, but I tried a totally different industry that I was interested in for a little bit, which was a lot of fun. It led me to the career that I have now, which is a career of leadership where I, you know, again, I'm really developing myself and love what I do. And so when I think about like, how do I assess my confidence? It's exactly what you said. It's like knowing that I was able to go through adversity and overcome it and thrive even after it, or maybe even because of it is like a huge part, I think, of my personal story and potentially maybe not as huge of a part of my professional story.

37:12because I wouldn't say there's major moments of my career where I failed and overcome it. So maybe the confidence that I feel personally is definitely strong. The confidence that I feel professionally is still being developed because, again, I don't think I've gone through major failures other than that incident. Generally, it's been pretty, pretty good. Well, let me tell you something. Confidence doesn't really discriminate. Right. We compartmentalize it, right, to say, well, I'm confident in this area, but I'm not confident in that area. Confidence does not discriminate. It is the same secret sauce that you can apply on every single dish.

38:00OK, so this notion of, you know, I have confidence personally, but professionally, I don't. Again, confidence is this feeling. It's a feeling that whatever happens, I'll be able to deal with it. Yeah. You know, you asked me how I would assess my confidence. Like, I really just kind of think about where is the source of my confidence? I guess what comes to mind is like I've got this this is going to sound a little woo woo but I've got this like warm glowing ball inside of me that's like this the my values the things that I stand for the people I care about my personal worth like how I feel about myself and it's this thing that generates energy for me it generates the confidence I think I would say sometimes that feeling is very strong and very clear and crisp.

38:55And sometimes that glowing ball is sort of overshadowed, overshadowed by something else, someone else, something someone said, where I can't draw on that energy or I forget to draw on that energy and to have that confidence. So maybe I can describe it that way. That's kind of how I see it for myself. Yeah, no, I love that visual and that you have that for yourself. And I also want to point out one little thing that you said in that you said, you know, sometimes it feels like I can't draw from it. And then you move to, or I forget to draw from it. That warm light that you have inside of you, that ball that you have of you that you describe as like your confidence, it is always there.

39:43The question is, do you always tap into it. And that's a choice. I can't sit here and say here, you know, with the wave of a magic wand, here's how you do it. You have to tap into it. You have to be able to say, okay, can I work through this? Have I worked through other things before that I don't know? Have I dealt with people who questioned my credibility before and still thrived? Yes, I have. Okay. Well, I know I have the capacity to deal with it if it happens again. Very different than liking it, right? It's like my daughter, you know, when she was younger, she hated, well, she still hates it, you know, getting shots.

40:25And she'd be like, but it's going to hurt. It's going to hurt. I hate it. And she would like cry the whole way to the doctor's office. And then we'd get there and she'd scream and all until the point where they actually gave her the shot. And then she would just like get quiet. And then after she'd be like, okay, I'm done. So every time I would say to her, but you've been through this before. And what she realized is like what was causing her the most angst was the anticipation of the shot rather than the shot itself. So I think part of this for you is, am I technical enough? Am I going to be seen as not technical enough?

41:07part of it is being able to tap into the confidence that you do have rather than thinking you don't have the confidence and that's a choice and a practice a daily practice yeah

41:24we've spent a lot of time in this coaching session going through possible scenarios that jules might face in her job this is a really helpful strategy to use when coaching others or yourself when you're really not quite sure what direction to go in. Play out the different scenarios. Worst case, best case, middle of the road. The point in going through such an exercise is not to nail every detail. It's to show you that in most cases, regardless of what happens, you'd find your way through it. And that's where you find your confidence in the knowing that you can deal with whatever is ahead. As Jules reached that point, we were now ready to go back to her initial question regarding what it is that she wants in her new role, especially in terms of her need to feel supported.

42:13I'm not sure how to articulate exactly what it is I'm looking for. I can tell you what I'm liking that I'm seeing right now. The particular leader or manager that I would be reporting to in this new role has said to me many times in many different meetings over the past year that he values me. He thinks I'm an excellent leader, that I'm being underutilized right now, and he wants to put my skills to use in all of these other areas of the organization. He'll do whatever it takes to make sure that I'm happy and successful. He says all the right things, right? So those are all great things to hear if you're going into a new role and you want to know if you're being supported is knowing that you already have a fan, basically.

43:04OK, great. So you're feeling like the intent is there. I think some of my hesitation actually comes from I'm not sure if he knows how to support me. Like he says the right things. And I've seen this in other topics and areas around the organization not related to me, but where he he has the good intent. He says the right things. And I believe he believes, you know, he has good intention, but he can't back it up with action. So I worry about that a little bit. So what would you do? What would you do if you had a team member and you're like, you know what, this is a team member that I really want to support?

43:40I think one thing that actually comes to mind is I would actually start out by trying to be really clear about what I can and cannot do. like I would try to set the expectations as realistically as possible and I think maybe that's where things are in question for me with this new manager is I think the intention is there but I think the expectations with me I want to know really like what in reality can he do versus what does he want to do or would like to do but realistically what can he do and what can he not do because if he can't do something for me I need to know about it because I need to know what I'm getting into or what I'm going to need to compensate for.

44:21So like when you phrase it that way, what I would do for my own team, I would come in and I would let them know like, I'm here to do this. This is what I'm good at. This is what I'm committed to doing for you. I can't do this right now for whatever reasons, or this is not what I'm going to be focusing on. This is not going to be my priority right now. Or I can't, like, I don't have the resources to do this right now.

44:45Just with the expectations for the team of me. Yeah. And I would want the same, I think, for my managers. I would want him to be real with me. Like, tell me for real what you can do and not do, because we all want everything, right? We want to do everything for our teams, but we can't always do that. What I'm hearing from you is I just need to get, like a really good sense of what the expectations will be, what's possible, what's not possible, what's in scope, what's out of scope. So I can make a realistic assessment as to whether A, it's something, you know, really that I want to do, B, what is it going to require of me, C, if I'm going to need additional resources, what those might be.

45:37Okay. I would suggest that you have that conversation with this person. There might be parts he might not know still. Right. You're trying to make an assessment. You're trying to make a hypothesis, a very well-informed one. And then once you're in it, I mean, this happens with everything, right? You know, I dream up my vacations all the time. Like I imagine I do all this research, you know, and then I get there and it either surpasses my expectation is right according to what I expected or is like doesn't quite match up. But no matter how much research I did before, it would have never replaced the reality of it when I'm there.

46:19So you're doing as much research as you can, but you also have to understand that once you get there, it might not necessarily be exactly as expected. Yeah. And that's OK. Why? Why is that OK? Because I'm good at dealing with ambiguity. Exactly.

46:41Good for looking back at your notes. OK, so I think this piece around not technical enough. there's some inner work which we've talked about right you have the capacity to deal with whatever happens and then there's the outer work which is you need to go and clarify expectations with your manager you need to see over and beyond your manager are there other people that you can identify who can be champions for you and i would say go have the same conversation maybe even ask explicitly how can you support me in this role here's one of my concerns i have very different background than the team i'm going to lead what can you do to help me on board so that it mitigates not dismisses but kind of mitigates a little bit makes people feel more at ease about me being their leader and if they're like i don't know what do you want me to do okay i want you to introduce me.

47:38I want you to come to the meetings and have my back. I want you to, you know, be here to bounce things off with me so that I can differentiate between what we can do. I want you to be able to champion if I decide that we need additional resources. Are you ready to do that? Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, I think going in asking how you can support with the specific concern, I think gives them a little more, something more concrete to really understand how they can help me that's right okay so the other part that you had the other blocker was around you feeling like you have limited time and energy and being very conscious of boundaries that you want to set to ensure that you're not being set up to head into burnout yeah what would make you feel in any job that you have boundaries or what are the principles that you want to be able to operate within that make you feel like it will mitigate getting into burnout and honor the time and energy that you do want to give to your job the one that comes to mind immediately is flexibility And I think this is not just with my time necessarily.

48:58It is time, but also flexibility in the way that I do things. I don't like, I mean, nobody likes being micromanaged, but I don't like being micromanaged. I don't like somebody kind of looking over my shoulders, not observing, but like scrutinizing my process and that sort of thing. I don't mind people knowing about my process. I just want to feel like I have the freedom to experiment. and then also like with the time I want to feel like if I'm tired like if I spent a lot of energy in meetings that morning I can go take a break I want to have the freedom to manage my own energy based on how I'm spending it at work and not be you know stuck on a certain schedule or feel like I've got too much in my calendar that I can't make that space or make that time the other one is I think purpose.

49:51So feeling like what I'm working on matters. People want it. People see the value of it. I like it. I think that's a big one. Like I feel like I'm getting something out of it. And what I enjoy getting out of things is I enjoy learning. I enjoy growing and I enjoy seeing like how what I'm doing is adding to my repertoire, to my toolbox of things that I know how to do as a leader. And then the third one is the people in the community. Because I think that's a piece of it too. Feeling like I've got a community of people who this would be both my direct team and also like the support I've built around myself.

50:33Feeling like I have that community and I have that support I think is really important. So feeling like my team has my back. You know, get overwhelmed or if i get too much on my plate feeling like they have the capacity and have the ability to take on some of that work feeling comfortable delegating basically for my support team feeling like they're in on what's going on with me like they know what's up and i can call them up at any point be like i need your advice or i need to vent or i need whatever it is i need in that moment feeling like I have that. Okay, great. So what do you feel is in your control to help fulfill all of these areas that you talked about?

51:20Flexibility, purpose, learning, community of support, usefulness, not futility. I think the community piece, definitely my support community. It's something I've been really trying to build and strengthen over the last six months or so. And I think I'm making some good progress there. So that one, I definitely feel like if I invest time in, it will pay dividends. I think the personal growth one is interesting because I usually have a growth mindset. not always but usually and I'm usually able to sort of extract some wisdom or learning from a situation okay I don't know if I have a lot of control over the flexibility piece this is probably one that I am concerned about because right now there's a lot of fires that need to be fought or at least that the leadership thinks need to be fought um and so I worry about those getting thrown at me a lot and not being able to make the space to re-energize and just being constantly in firefighting mode.

52:27I think that's one that I'm not sure I have control over other than maybe holding some boundaries, but I don't even know what that looks like right now. I mean, I think that's it, right? So what's your ask? When you said that, I said, well, what do you want in terms of flexibility? Like if I said to you, oh you want to be flexible what does that what does that mean to you like i need you to stop throwing fires at me i think a little bit of it is like it's not that these fires aren't it's not that they don't need to be fought but maybe if i had a few questions i could ask him that like would help distill or to diffuse the anxiety a little bit and let him really think clearly about like, does this need to be addressed right this moment by me?

53:16Okay. That's a good place to start, right? Yeah. But I also think there's some setting of expectations. We started off this conversation by you saying, I'm sort of holding all the cards right now so I can ask for things. Okay. So what if you ask, or what if you set the expectation? Look, the way that I manage my calendar is, you know, you might look at it and there's probably going to be like one or two blocks or two or three blocks a week on my calendar. My ask is that those are respected because it's when I am able to do heads down work or when I have my thinking cap on or where I just need to re-energize from these other things.

53:58Now, manager, I understand that, you know, things pop off and things need to be addressed. So it's not that I don't want to address those things, but I'm just going to ask that if they happen to fall at the same time as when I have this other thing going on, can we really question whether it needs to be done right in that moment? Not whether it needs to be done at all. You know, it's no different than like when I sent my out of office email. There are times when I'm like, I sent my out of office, but you know what? You can like reach out to me. And then there are other times where I'm like, do not reach out to me.

54:32Like, I want you to think two, three times before you send me an email. Okay. But that's setting the expectation. All they can do is either agree to it or not agree to it. And then you take it from there. But the only thing that's in your control right now is actually setting the boundary and setting the expectation around the boundary and calibrating with your manager, whether that's a boundary that he can live with. And I would say it's the same with everything else. I think there's an expectation setting conversation with this manager that you might be working with to say, look, here are the five things that are really important to me in whatever role I take next.

55:21And here's what they would look like in very concrete terms, right? If I start feeling like I'm not getting anywhere because of what's happening and decisions aren't being made. Can I come to you so that we can talk through it and you could be helpful to me in moving it forward? Or you can be real with me and tell me it is what it is right now. There's nothing we can do. Channel your energy into a different direction. You can have those conversations. They're all what if conversations. Have the what if conversations. That's right. But it will be more helpful and more productive for you to have those conversations if you articulate them in concrete terms.

56:00Yeah, I think that's a really good point is I need to write those things down. I need to think about those things. Like what are the concrete things that I need? Yeah, you're right. Like I can't expect him to give me those things. One, I haven't asked for them. And two, I don't have examples of what they are. Well, definitely if you haven't asked for them. I mean, he could, like if, you know, if he's like the world's most ideal manager, he would. Yes, he would be knocking on your door saying - He would be able to divine what I'm thinking. Yes, exactly. But that's not happening, right? So it's about you, you know, empowering yourself to dream up what it is.

56:39Put a hypothesis. It doesn't mean that's what it's going to be, right? Hold it lightly, you know, and then going and saying, hey, here's I'm seriously considering this. I'm excited about it. here are the things that would make me really want to do this and so i just want to talk about what the possibility is and then it's a discussion i wrote dream it up and ask for it that's because you never know right what do they say with the lottery you can't win it if you're not in it or something like that powerball say you miss 100 shots you don't take all that but that's right all of that all of that so the same the same applies here okay so it's all about the ask the fact that you've outlined what the parameters are is the place to start right it's like buying a house or going and looking for a house like oh you know i want it to be in this type of neighborhood and I want it to be more in an urban area versus a country area.

57:46And I kind of want it to be, you know, open space versus closed space. Okay. That's great. Then we need to start getting concrete. How many bedrooms, how many bathrooms, right? What's the distance between here and the closest store? Do you want a fireplace? Do you not want a fireplace? Do you want a yard? Do you not want a yard? Then we start getting concrete. Yeah. So you're sort of at the like outer layer of the parameters. And now you just want to put some examples against it and test them out, test them out. Okay. Yeah. And I think when I was thinking about like, what resources do I need? I was actually thinking of them, not even for myself.

58:23It was like coaching for my team, coaching for the organization, you know, like those kinds of things. And, and I think this has made me realize like, I need to also with equal or even more weight, look at what are my ask for me personally basically yeah to help sustain myself like as a individual going through this role right like what do i need in terms of support yes what do you need and ask for those things absolutely okay and realize that when you're doing that as on a personal level you You were building the capacity to articulate what your team needs and then being able to ask for what your team needs.

59:08Okay. Yeah. You know, I do feel like maybe a part of you is like, I don't really know what my team's going to need. So I don't know what to ask. Okay. So then what's the next best thing you can ask for us? The next best thing is, look, I want to be given an opportunity when I come in and start managing the team to make an assessment of what they need and to be able to come back to you and say, here's my assessment and I'm going to need some things. Are you open to that? Will there be room and space for me to make that assessment and then talk about what resources we might need? And let him answer.

59:42Okay. Yeah. So I would love to hear from you. I know you've jotted down a lot of things, but I just love to hear from you kind of like, what are your biggest two or three key takeaways? Where's the money at for you today? I think the two big blockers were a big one. But I think even before that, when we went back to like the heart and the brain analogy that I used about like my heart being excited about this role in my brain saying like, whoa, whoa, whoa. It's almost like coming up with a process to address the brain piece of it. Because I think what we did here was we said, okay, brain, like you have legitimate concerns.

1:00:23Let's break them down one by one and really analyze like what's in your control, what's out of your control. What do you need? What are you going to ask for? And I think doing that so that the brain is not the inhibitor or not the one holding me back while I'm trying to go forward, but that it's being validated and also comforted with data, basically, I think for me is actually a really valuable skill that I would love to exercise more in the future because I know these kind of situations are going to come up again. They come up all the time in little ways in life too. It's like, oh, you want to go take that vacation?

1:01:02It's like, I don't know. Like, yes, but so much work. So like this, this is a thing with me, I recognize. And I think having the ability to kind of go through it step by step like this is going to help me a lot in being able to move forward with confidence and with the comfort knowing that my feelings were validated my brain feelings were validated and that we went through each of the feelings and cooked up like the situation or the scenario and the answer to that scenario so yeah i think actually that for me is the big takeaway from from this call great and you can practice that as you said every single day right just literally by being able to notice and saying okay what is going on right just start with that all right yeah yeah yes thank you very much meryl this has been really illuminating and valuable for me thank you so much no thank you

1:02:12In some ways, Jules was presented with kind of an ideal scenario, being able to design the job that she wants. But sometimes what feels like the biggest opportunities can also feel the most overwhelming, as this one did for Jules. Her ability to recognize the past experiences and emotions that were causing her angst about her new situation helped her move forward. In a way, Jules needed to approach defining her new role like writing on a whiteboard. She could either write over the messy scribble that's already on there, or she could wipe the board clean and start from there. She chose the latter.

1:02:51By focusing on what's in her control, having confidence in her ability to deal with whatever happens moving forward, and being clear about the boundaries and support that she needs to perform at her peak, Jules is now in a much better position to design what she wants her future role to look like and ask for what she wants.

1:03:14That's it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time. This organization was a great fit for me. You know, it leaned on past experience and a passion of mine with the mission, but it's just not being heard. and I just like, I should have seen it, you know, seeing red flags like, oh, that's something I gotta watch out for. Want more of Coaching Real Leaders? Join our community where I host live discussions to unpack the coaching sessions. Become a member at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. You can also find me and my newsletter on LinkedIn at Muriel Wilkins. Thanks to my producer, Mary Dew, sound editor, Nick Kringko, music composer, Brian Campbell, my assistant, Emily Sofa, and the entire team at HBR.

1:03:59Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. If you're dealing with a leadership challenge, I'd love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show next season. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. And of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward. Share it with your friends, subscribe and leave a review on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. From HBR Presents, I'm Muriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well. Thank you.