How Do I Get Help? | Coaching Real Leaders | Podcast

27:24And I think, I'm glad you kind of said to like give myself some space because I didn't realize it until you had said that, that I think I'm being a little hard on myself where I'm not like maybe forgiving myself for letting myself get to that point. And so I think I need to just maybe, as you said, give a little bit of pause and just kind of give that space so that when I do move forward and I am kind of looking at this evolutionary approach with more possibilities, that's not even, you know, a focus in the back of my head. It's like, I'm good. I put that to bed. Let's move forward. Yeah. I mean, what would that look like for you to even give yourself that space?

28:03Honestly, just talking about it with you now and just acknowledging it feels pretty good. Yeah. Right. I mean, you know, Brene Brown, who I bow down to, right, like talks about guilt, you know, and what the root of guilt is, which is shame. Yeah. And so if we just take that framework, what's the shame in you having gotten to this point in your health? You know, I'm relatively young. And it was a shock. it felt a little bit self-inflicted. So I think there are a lot of assumptions there. Yeah. Right. And I'm taking a pause because I'm thinking about when I asked you to describe what has propelled you in your career, you named three things, determination, fortitude, and luck.

29:01And when I hear you talk about where you are right now, it seems like you are relying on the determination and fortitude and almost saying, man, if I had more determination, you know, somehow like determination and fortitude would have stopped this from happening. And you're leaving the luck part completely out of the picture. Yeah. And luck works both ways, right? Luck is when we say, oh, that's not in my control, you know, and there is a lot that's not in our control. But luck can work in our favor and against our fate. Or it's not even favor. It's against what we would hope happened. And in this case, the part that's not in our control fully, right, as you said, it's part of the equation, but the part that's not in our control is what happened.

29:50and that's the space to realize you know you could do all the quote-unquote right things and still be where you are well I mean admittedly I've done a lot of wrong things too that's the way that I learned which is actually the best way to learn yeah I think in a way almost if I had this kind of comes back to the point where I'm better helping other people than other people rather than myself I understand that cerebrally I understand that you know unfortunately life is probably 50 % pain and it's probably 50 % joy. It's, it felt different to me this time because it happened to me versus when I've seen it happen to like loved ones or something.

30:30And I think the support I provide them is probably different than the support I would provide myself. What's the support that you provide them? I think I can observe their needs and I can, I can look at them and kind of fill in the gaps and I could kind of just meet them where they're at with myself, unless it's like right in front of my eyes, like kind of dead smack staring at me. I don't realize it. I'm just like, oh, I need something. Okay. I'll deal with it now. Yeah. It's delayed and it's a lot more blunt. You know, this is what we call, I mean, what you're describing, right? Even from a leadership standpoint, we've talked so much about having the leadership, the leader who is compassionate.

31:12Yeah. So compassion means being able to sit with another's suffering with an open heart, right? And in order to build capacity for compassion for others, you really need to be able to build capacity for self-compassion. And what I'm hearing you say is, I'm able to sit with somebody else's needs. I'm able to do that with my people at work. I'm able to do that with loved ones. And yet I haven't quite built the capacity yet to sit with my own needs and sit with my own discomfort, you know, with my own, you know, not sound dramatic, but in this case, it is a literal, like my own suffering. yeah okay that's deep that's deep that cuts deep that cuts deep yes in what way I you know it's not unusual for I think people to put their energy into places where they want to give back and I would say that's part of my career I'm trying to kind of give people maybe what I didn't have.

32:31And so I think it's, even if I haven't developed that capacity yet, or maybe I haven't like strengthened that capacity yet, I think it's there. I think part of the way that I try to do that is one, give to others, but also just kind of let that experience of giving to others kind of, you know, through osmosis, develop my own capacity better. Yeah. Right. And so that's a really interesting approach, Sabine. And a lot of people approach it that way. You know, if I give to others, then I am giving to myself. Or if I help others be joyful, then it will bring me joy. And it actually doesn't work that way.

33:09Right? Many people are irresponsible about it, too. Right. You know, the way it works is, it's so funny where I get sometimes my like, learning moments for myself. But, you know, I will quote some other people here. I can't remember which one, but one of my favorite Peloton instructors says something like, you've got to be able to pour into the other's cup while you pour into your own at the same time. It's not, I'm going to pour into the other person's cup and therefore my cup will be full. No, you pour into both. Okay. So I think part of this for you is understanding that what you're giving out, you also need to be using the boomerang effect and giving to yourself as well.

34:01Now, the good news is clearly you have the ability to be helpful. You know, because you said, I don't know how to help myself, but you have the ability to help. Right. Because you're doing it for everybody else. And now it's like, how do you then help yourself in the same way that you help others, which is understanding their needs, filtering down and synthesizing what those needs actually mean, and then putting them into practice and executing on them. All right. And so part of that is starting with what you've defined. If we kind of bring it back to the job search, well, then what kind of job do I actually need that will help me?

34:43You know, what does it mean to be sustainable for me? What does that look like for me? Okay. Always bringing it back to yourself. And when I say that kind of bringing it back to yourself, how comfortable are you with that? I think it's doable. I think out of the things that you asked me for that would, that's the strongest indicator, like of what I need right now is just a team of peers in a vacuum. And it's just, I need other people to learn from in what I specifically do. Okay. You need other people to learn from in what you specifically do. All right. And it sounds also like what you need is other people to just help you do the work.

35:32Yeah. I've, you know, I know I need to scale myself and it's been on the roadmap for a long time and it's inevitable. I could use some help as well. Okay. What have you done to move towards more of a sustainable situation within your current role? Just taking medical leave count.

35:57I bought time. You know what? I'm going to give you a check plus on that one. Thank you. Apparently you need medical write-off for that. Not self-nominated. Other than that, nothing. Mm-hmm. Who else knows that you are feeling the way you do in terms of feeling like it's unsustainable and you're in the burnout phase? I haven't told anyone, put it that way. The very perceptive people can tell, but I haven't admitted it either. You haven't admitted it. And what got in the way of that? I think it can put you in a position of risk if the environment isn't accommodating to it. And I still kind of in observation mode and I didn't intuitively feel like I was in that space where I could without jeopardizing my options.

36:54And I didn't want to put that card down. Okay. And that's very real, right? So assessing the risk, not feeling fully safe to be able to do that? What would you need to feel, you know, quote unquote, safe enough to share where you are? I find with these hard conversations, it often helps to like fly to a 20 ,000 foot elevation. So maybe you're feeling, you know, very intense about something because it's, you know, it's quite present and it's like visceral for me. So I think kind of what I need is to have a conversation about like, look, this is what I'm heading for in my long-term future, or this is how it might include you.

37:38Given that here's what I need on a day-to-day kind of like a 5k foot view. And I think I haven't been able to have those long-term career conversations. Cause like I said, I've just been nose to the grindstone and there hasn't been time work-wise, nor have I made time for myself for that. Okay. So what would make you be able to have those conversations in the future? One of the great things about this break is that I've had a ton of time to reflect in my three short weeks because you're you're lying in a bed and so your your brain just goes in overdrive. First, I think I needed clarity on what that future is.

38:15And then after that, I think it's just reaching out to some select people and just asking for their trust. And how realistic do you think that is for you? Before I went on break, I would say it was probably about a 50, 50 % risk. When I go back, I'd like to reassess the situation. A lot of things could have changed that I'm not aware of. I could have that conversation with people outside of my current environment. Like, you know, I have great relationships with tons of my old peers and colleagues, but I, I never considered any of them like a mentor or sponsor. They're just kind of friends. Okay.

38:51But what would you be looking for in having that, those conversations? What, what's the desired outcome? A sounding board, much like we're doing now, someone to just objectively say, like, I'm hearing you say this, is this what you're looking for? And I think out of those conversations, what I'd be looking to have is, you know, almost from a friend more than like a colleague point of view is what the question would be like, is what I want to achieve, do you think doable in this environment, realistically. And so that I think is the question that you need to be direct with and ask. Yeah. Whether it's internally in your organization or externally elsewhere, as you start looking for that role, the difference between being reactive, you know, that has been your approach up till now, the lily pad jumping, right?

39:44You've been reactive, the opportunity has come up and the opportunity has basically said, hey, does this look good to you and you've answered yes or no. The different approach now that we're moving to, which is more proactive, is you're saying, hey, here's what I want. Does it look good to you? And they can say yes or no. It feels a lot more empowering than what I've been doing before. Great. With that comes some risks. The risk is that they say no. But guess what? You already identified what the risks were in your other approach. So there's risks either way. So what I'm sensing in our conversation is a hesitation to fully put out there what it is that you want and need out of concern of how it might be responded to.

40:38Partially. I don't think I was clear on what I wanted or I needed until this break.

40:48Sabine came to the conversation looking for better guidance on how to plan out her career. But what she's finding is getting in her way is her reluctance to state what she wants and needs out of her professional role. And she's so used to doing things on her own, she also hasn't always asked for help in managing her career. But this forced break from work has really given her an opportunity to sort through her priorities. So now we can go ahead and start looking at ways she can have conversations both internally and externally about what it is she wants.

41:25There's three ways this can go. You can either wait and hope that somebody one day just miraculously pops up and says, Hey, here's, remember that role that you said you wanted when you were laying in bed and you conjured it up and you're like, here it is, right? So that would kind of be like your old way. Option number two is you go have one of these like more soundboarding conversation, mentoring conversations where or even like more mentoring where it's like, hey, this is how I'm feeling. Hasn't been sustainable for me. It's been really hard. And then you sort of cross your fingers and hope that the person on the other side will say, wow, well, you know what, then what if the role was like this?

42:06and then you react to it and say, oh my gosh, yes, right? How did you know? That's exactly what I want. So you can go to option three, which is I've thought about it. I know what the pros and cons are. I'm now crafting, designing, creating, which by the way, you're really good at, what I want that next role to be. Let me go and talk to select people about it and test whether it's even possible. And if it's not possible here, then I have a choice to make. And so I laid out some options. How do they sound to you? The first two, I would say, kind of sound status quo in terms of possible. I've done that already.

42:51Maybe not the second one as much as the first one. The whole proactive versus reactive mindset's really resonating me. And so I'm compelled to think that really what I want is that third approach, which is me stating what I want and kind of putting out there and seeing how people react rather than me accommodating to other people's needs as much. I think it's the only way I'll feel like there's more balance, the kind of balance that I need. Yeah. And so what do you feel you need to be able to do that, to chase option number three, if that's what you're choosing right now? I think I can, you know, craft my needs and like like a, you know, pretty simple and hopefully intelligent way.

43:38I struggle with knowing like what kind of people to speak, I guess, who to speak to or how to approach them. You know, I, like I said, I've never had like formal mentors or sponsors, but like I leave every job usually, and this is not to like toot my own horn, but like I leave jobs with great reputation. So it's not like I'm burning bridges. I just, I guess I don't know how to leverage a community or a network. Okay. You don't know how, what does that even mean? Leverage a community and a network. Network's a weird word and so is community, but I, this is the part where it's like, I just don't want to do it on my own.

44:14I'd like to have some help from others. Okay. That's what I want to, I want it to fully understand. Like, what does that even mean? You don't want to do it by yourself. I'd like to learn from other people that are, that are a few steps ahead of me, even if it's somewhat adjacent or tangential to what I'm doing. Okay. So you want to learn from them. What else do you want from them? Advice in terms of like, is what I'm laying out tenable? Are there potentially industries that I'm not considering? Are there potentially, you know, people I should speak to? I mean, the cherry on top would be like, hey, I have a job.

44:52It means exactly what you're looking for. I mean, wouldn't it be great if you're talking to people who also potentially have line of sight into opportunities? I would love that. You know, I mean, Sabine, don't bury the lead here. Like, you want a job. I want a great job. You want a great job. So, you know, there's your criteria. Look at your list of people. Who has something to offer in terms of advice? Who has something to offer in terms of experience? Who has something to offer in terms of line of sight into opportunities and potentially influence and decision making position towards those opportunities?

45:39Who has the intersection of all three? Because they're the holy grail. What you have at the very least is a network, right? A community, as you've said. You have people. You're just not leveraging them. I know. I know. She says sheepishly. So it's how do you leverage them? I think the first place is you drill it down. You focus. You don't just spread yourself in. You say, OK, just the same way we articulated for you, what's the career you're looking for? Where is it that you need help? Who do you need help from? So you need help in terms of advice, support, opportunities. but let's even start with the first is like who's your board of advisors right who are your people that can be helpful to you so right now you've articulated what you need all right who falls in that sweet spot that's who your outreach list is it's interesting because I think one of the things that was holding me back is that I didn't feel like I had a clear ask and I didn't want to come to people without a clear ask.

46:49And that's because, you know, I've been on the other side of the equation quite often where people are, I mean, almost always actually where people are asking for me for help or mentorship. And I don't think all requests for help are created equal. And, and I wanted to be like, I guess, strategic and smart about how I wanted to ask for help. And now that I've kind of clarified those or that you clarified those three things for me, that, that gives me a much more solid foundation where I think I feel a lot more comfortable doing that. It was a barrier before. And so you now have your clarity of ask.

47:21You now have, we'll hypothetically say you have your list of people or you will in the next few weeks. What happens after that? I mean, it's kind of putting pen to paper, just making like a very simple brief, you know, two paragraphs at most, maybe a few bullets kind of identifying like, this is what I want. These are the pillars of what I'm looking for. And then making a short list of people. And then I think just putting myself out there and seeing where it goes. I don't, with the people that I trust, I don't feel like there's the risk if I say something wrong, or it's, you know, not perfect messaging.

47:57It's that space where I could just kind of get close enough and they'll help me get the rest of the way. I think what you need to be careful of is potentially missing out on the opportunity to make your specific ask out of concern for how it's going to be handled. So what does that mean to you when I say that? Good catch, but I don't know how to do that either. Okay. So how you do that is, yes, you might come in with framing it, you know, a little bit higher level in terms of framing it as seeking advice, but have your ask in your back pocket because if you see an opportunity to present it then you present it what would that sound like or how would you phrase that i think it depends on how the person responds in an ideal way they will say well so what is it that you want and then they've asked you yeah okay if you're sort of halfway there and you're not sure you We can maybe say, you know, I'm thinking about potentially different options.

49:05I'm not dead set on this, but, you know, here's something I've kind of been thinking about. So you caveat it a little bit. But what I don't want you to do is go to like, I'm not sharing at all. Yeah. And go in with that attitude and then not even notice when there is an actual opening for you to share. It almost makes me think that I just need to kind of scenario plan or scenario scenario plan a little bit. And kind of, as you mentioned, there's these three things that I'm looking for. And then maybe there's different levels of, let's just say, like viscosity in terms of like how much I can share with this person.

49:41And then almost make like a little bit of like a map, like here's like a two liner. But I could, you know, share with that person just so I have a little bit of a roadmap of how I'd like the conversation to go, of course, adapting to how I view it going. I think that's a great idea, right? And if you have some people that you do trust, like a friend, you know, a colleague that's a trusted friend, you might want to role play it out with them before you actually go out in the real streets and do this and have these meetings. Yeah. You know, have them play the trusted advisor, mentor, sponsor, who, where you can come in and be very direct with what it is that you want.

50:23Have them play the in-between person and then have them play the person that's like, let me keep this high level. Yeah. Okay. And practice it out loud. That's a great idea. All right. Let me just play this out with you since we were talking about scenario planning. What's the worst that could happen when you have these conversations? The worst case situation would be that I don't get any helpful information, which is not that bad. It's just a waste of time. Not really. But yeah, the worst case situation is that the conversation goes nowhere. And I don't think anybody would think any less of me in reality.

51:00Yeah. Okay. And so, I mean, it sort of lands you back to where you already are. So, okay. So worst case is the status quo. Yeah. So I think as you do your outreach, as you go into these conversations, it's also thinking about, you know, what do you have to gain from having this conversation? And what do you have to lose? And then making a choice. So how has it worked for you in the past when people have come to you? I usually kind of think of it like in terms of like a three-point diagram. Like one is, can I actually help them with their ask? Like, do I have the skills where I actually feel like I could provide value?

51:42and then I think the second one is like do they have a clear sense of their ask and like do they actually have a need that I feel is a real need or is it just like a you know I want to I want a favor kind of dialing in a favor and I might not need it that much like need actually matters to me a lot and the third one is like do I want to help them do I like them so I think about those three things. Okay. So if you were to take those three things, how would you frame your outreach to others to make sure that those three variables are at least being considered? Have a clear understanding of their skill or expertise or opportunity or, you know, whatever it is that, whatever it is that they kind of excel it, like be very clear and explicit about that up front, that this is what I'm trying to tap into.

52:32Establish some rapport. And then the third one is just be like very, very clear and simple about what it is I'm asking them for and what I think they can help me. And I would encourage you to be as transparent as you want them to be with you. What we're talking about is like an approach essentially for, let's say, some near-term action that I'd like to take to kind of explore future possibilities and roles. And this is like, I mean, we're really kind of talking about different approaches to communication and a plan for it, but is this an ongoing practice that most people have? Like, are most people continually doing outreach, kind of searching for what's next?

53:18So I'm going to turn the question back on you. Is this a practice that you continuously want to have? I've never done it before. So I don't know. It seems a little exhausting to do this all the time. I mean, there's joy and feeling comfortable and rooted in a place. So no, I don't think I want it all the time, but I imagine that it's somewhat cyclical and it's like a muscle you kind of have to engage every few years or quarters, depending on how you're doing. So I think the operating statement that you made at the end there was depending on what you're doing. Yeah. So I could hear and very naively give you sort of generic.

53:58Yes. You should be doing this all the time. Right. But that would be generic. You wouldn't need a coach to do that because you could just go read here are the top 10 tips on what to do to advance your career and, you know, follow all 10. What we're trying to do now is really laser it down to what are the two or three most pertinent salient actions that you can take. And the way you figure that out is what actions are the most aligned to the goal that I have so that I can be in formation to get there. So as I often say, I don't know if you should keep doing this all the time. Why don't we try this time?

54:45Let's see if it's even something, you know, that you want to invest your time and energy as one approach and then take it from there. The question that you didn't ask, but I'm going to ask for you,

55:02is asking for help from others a critical part of one's leadership journey and career in order for them to grow and in order for them, in your case, to lead in a sustainable way? It's a very good question. I think you can certainly grow internally. That's always been my way of working. It's if you're not, if you're unaccustomed to help being an option, you help yourself. And within that, there's huge growth opportunities. I mean, I'm self-taught in almost everything. I think there's potentially, in my experience, a little bit of a cap on terms of like exponentially how far I can go just doing it on my own.

55:54And I'm at that kind of fulcrum point where it's like, I want the compounding interests of my work and my growth, you know, my learning, not necessarily my professional success, but my development and my growth as a human. And, you know, life is richer with others or with help and And you don't need it, but I would like it. Yeah. So Sabine, the beauty of it is you've got the individual thing down, packed. Yeah. And now it's saying, oh, like, I'm not going to, you know, I'm not just going to be the singles tennis player. I'm going to be a doubles tennis player, but I've got to go look for a partner.

56:29Yeah. So I think what you have an amazing opportunity for right now is before you are even placed in an official formal team sport, right? Where you're part of a team and then it's like, oh shoot, now I have the team and I've got to leverage and I've got to be able to do this. Being able to practice the skills of asking for support and making requests and asking for help and being okay not doing it on your own. You have an opportunity to do that right now out of necessity. I mean, I would even ask, you know, not to like totally get into your personal stuff, but even in the season that you're in right now, where you're dealing with health challenges, to what extent have you used this opportunity to exercise that muscle of making sure that you are being supported by others?

57:26Yeah, it's been unnatural to me, but it's not been as bad as I thought. But it's been a good stepping stone. And I was surprised that so many people stepped in. So it's there. It's just unnatural. Unnatural. For now, for now. Right. Yeah. Unnatural. And so even, you know, why don't we say it's something that you're not used to anymore? Much better. Yeah. Right. Because there was probably a time in your life where you did rely a lot on people. I mean, you know, you were a baby once. I was a baby once. I don't think you came out of the womb with like, damn it, I'm doing everything on my own. And I'm sure determination.

58:08So you have practice in seeking support and getting support, right? And so it's getting back into the practice of it. That's all it is. It's there. It's so funny how your personal, you know, ways of being can just like permeate your professional life. And they're not that distinct often. And I mean, it's like, how can you not dissect, you know, or how can they're so intertwined? And it's always very humbling to see when those kind of personal habits are impacting other parts of your professional life. I mean, you're a whole being, right? It's not like you leave one part and come back. Like we can't, it's hard to compartmentalize in that way as you're experiencing now.

58:51So I encourage you to kind of look at even before I'm in a situation where professionally I might have to leverage others in an actual role. What are your opportunities to actually exercise that muscle now as uncomfortable as it might be? Because all you're feeling right now is the discomfort and that's okay. It's okay to be uncomfortable, right? It's okay. As uncomfortable as it might be so that I build the simple muscle of recognizing when I need help or support and being able to ask for it or get it. That's the skill. Yeah. Understood. Understood. And? And I'm thinking to myself, I've got a lot of work to do.

59:48Don't we all? Yeah. In a good way. In a good way. We're all good. We're all good. We're all good. Well, listen, thank you so, so much. Thank you. This has been a gift.

1:00:01The week after my coaching meeting with Sabine, I received an email from her. It read, Muriel, last week's coaching session was illuminating. I gained clarity on my goals, blockers, and tactics. More importantly, I've internalized a razor-thin line between my professional and personal self and how critical it is for me to manage both. As I take my leadership to the next level, I'll be thinking of the following shifts we lasered in on together. From reactively jumping into roles to proactively finding future opportunities. From leading compassionately to also being compassionate with myself. From desiring others' help to permitting myself to be helped.

1:00:44From relentless pursuit to growing and leading sustainably. You have given me so much. Merci. Signed, Sabine. As a coach, it's not me who gives to my clients. They give themselves what they need by showing up, finding their answers, and doing the work. All I simply do is facilitate that path for them.

1:01:14That's it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. And that's a wrap on this season as well. We're taking a break over the winter and I'll be back with more episodes this spring. In the meantime, stay in touch by joining me and many others at my Coaching Real Leaders community, where I host live discussions on leadership issues and the coaching sessions you hear on this show. You can join at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. You can also find me and my newsletter on LinkedIn at Muriel Wilkins. Thanks to my producer, Mary Du, sound editor, Nick Kringko, music composer, Brian Campbell, my assistant, Emily Sofa, and the entire team at HBR.

1:01:52Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners, who share in their journeys. If you're dealing with a leadership challenge, I'd love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show next season. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. Of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward. Share it with your friends, subscribe, and leave a review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. From HBR Presents, I'm Muriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.

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