How Do I Move Forward from a Career Setback? | Advising Real Leaders

27:09And so, you know, they've formed their opinions over time or impressions over time in the absence of that. So those are probably two things I would have done differently or hopefully I wish I had done maybe a little bit better. So I think these are big, critical lessons learned, Jeff. Right. One is I need to ask for what I need. I need to ask for support when I need it, not before it's too late. and new leadership comes in, I need to gain their trust. And that means spending time with them to build relationship. Those two are just critical, even when not in crisis mode. You know, if what you had come with today is, hey, you know, I just want some tips on like how to, you know, how to lead and manage my career effectively, those would be in there.

28:02So they're just good career management hygiene. So one of the things I want you to take away is no matter where you are, no matter where you go, this aspect of being clear around what is it that I can do? What is it that I can't do? If there are things I can't do, do I have the capacity to ask for support? Or is it just something that needs to be delegated? Or is it something that just isn't going to get done? But being in question around that rather than assuming you have to do it all is key. And then secondly, yeah, like always looking around and saying, who are the key stakeholders? And if the, you know, the seats on the deck have moved around, I mean, honor those who have left, like maintain the relationship with those who are not in the leadership seat anymore or the sponsor seat anymore.

29:02But now it's time to cultivate relationship with the new folks. So whether in crisis mode or whether it's peacetime, you know, and everything's stable and there are no changes happening, this is just good, a good MO to have. Would it have guaranteed that your scope didn't change? No, I don't think so. No. Nothing that we do guarantees an outcome. So I think the question is not necessarily what could I have done differently. The question is, what's the best effort that I can put in that moves me closer to the outcome that I would like, understanding that there are other things that are going to weigh in, but I'm going to put my best effort in.

29:54And so my best effort is to ask for support. My best effort is to not just be heads down on getting the work done, but also lift my head up and intentionally, strategically cultivate the relationships that I need to cultivate. Mm-hmm. So that when I reach this point, the point that you're at, Jeff, you can look back and say, you know what? This isn't the outcome that I wanted, and I tried my best. Mm-hmm. And that's going forward too, right? You try your best, and then you see what happens. Mm-hmm. So I think you're walking away, at least from the situation, if and when you walk away, armed with some things that you can put into action.

30:38Now it's on you. If you don't put them into action, I mean, you sort of know where that road can lead to. Like if you in your past roles, not this most recent one, but at the other past, if you had applied these two lessons, do you think it would have made any difference for you? I think it would have. I feel like I've inconsistently done these things through my career. And it was less limiting when I was more junior. But obviously, as I began to grow more scope and responsibilities, it's become much more limiting or much more of an obvious critical thing for me. So I do think I would have made a difference in terms of my progression in some of my past roles.

31:22One thing that I'm kind of learning, I had a discussion with my new manager, and this wasn't a common directive towards me, but we were talking about something else. But, you know, about sort of playing the game. Like, don't be upset if you don't like the outcome, if you don't play the game. And I don't really like the notion of playing a game, but I do think there's just kind of some true to it. You know, there's things that you need to do or should do. I don't think I've ever really thought about it in the past very intentionally about that. I was very much focused on sort of doing good work, being a good business partner, those type of things.

31:59but the spoken and unspoken sort of rules of engagement to progress your career like i've not thought about as much not intentionally not thinking about it but it's just never that's not something i've been given guidance or taught in the past i never really thought about it but i feel like that was a big part of what was missing and the things that i could control i mean when i joined i think there were a lot of things circumstantially like to my benefit. A strong manager that sponsored me, we were in a growing period of the company, and then things changed. What I'm trying to take away from the experience is how do I be more intentional about that piece?

32:42And as you mentioned, I have to take this in normal times and crisis times wherever I go. I'm also wondering if I want to play the game like you know you know the rules kind of had changed a little bit right with new a new leadership structure and it's like do i still want to be a part of this or is this sort of something that i have to accept in other roles going into the future i mean jeff look like i love the fact that you were like hey you know i can acknowledge that i didn't do these things because i didn't really know right like it's not something that you had gotten guidance on before You didn't need to before because circumstances were in place that it wasn't necessary.

33:29You know, it's kind of like a great codependent relationship. You don't have to like, you know, you don't have to rise up in these areas that you don't even have to learn these areas because somebody else is sort of taking care of it. They're making it OK that you don't have to do these things. OK. And then circumstance changes. And what it reveals, which is not a bad thing. I mean, if you take it from a perspective of like you want to learn, what it reveals are the areas that you still have to grow in. They were there all along. It's just that this situation revealed them more than other situations you've been in.

34:12And then the other like previous jobs, you know, the route you took instead of saying, hey, I need to learn these. You're like, you know what? I'm out. I'm going to move on to the next and then guess what the lessons were still there to be learned but it took some time okay so now you realize oh shoot I never really learned these skills it's a matter of learning them and then the second question becomes which is what you just raised but do I want to do I want to do this do I want to have to like cultivate relationships with new leadership and get them to trust me and have to gain credibility with them and, you know, manage a huge scope that I continuously have to look at.

34:59Do I need to ask for resources and navigate asking for resources? And the answer is no, you don't have to. However, if you want to lead at a certain level, that is part of leading. And so it's not a judgment of like, like good or bad, or you have to, you have not. What's interesting to me is that these two areas that you have talked about, like being heads down, sort of focusing on doing good work, being a good business partner, and not as much focused or deprioritizing the relationship building that may need to happen with other stakeholders or the resource allocation or reallocation, what you have leaned more into is more of an individual contributor posture.

35:51And then you were actually put into an individual contributor role. And so there is a bit of how you positioned yourself is aligned with where you ended up. Yeah, I think you're right. That was actually really helpful to hear. my approach and my posture or actions i think it aligns to this characteristic of like an ic part of it i think is sort of you know trying to make that shift also from ic to leadership or more managing and i think obviously it's much more familiar to me in my past roles and And kind of my zone of comfort is there. And so part of it is trying to shift a little bit and pick and kind of pick up a different set of skills for, you know, as I seek to kind of progress into more leadership positions.

36:51That's right. So it's not a, you know, it's again, it's with no judgment in my saying that because you could say, you know what, like, yeah, you're right. Being an IC is actually what I like. Going to your second question, which is, you know, what is most aligned and congruent with who I am? Okay. You might say, you know what? I don't want to spend my time doing that. That's not what energizes me. That's not what I see as my career. I don't want to be responsible or have the burnout implications of managing at a larger scope. And that's fine, right? That's your personal decision. Or you could say, you know what?

37:32I do want the larger scope. I do want to be a manager. That's aligned with where I see my career going for whatever reason. And therefore, rather than looking at it as playing the game, it's how do I operate on that court? What are the skills that I need to have to operate on that field? It's no different than, you know, one of my kids played competitive tennis. And it was like, yeah, when you played, you know, when you played regional, you only needed to know how to do these things. But when you went to nationals, it was a whole different ball field. But you have to decide, do you want that? Because if you want that, then your training looks different.

38:14The skills you learn are amplified. The mental game is different. But you can't have it both ways. It boils down to what is it that you want? Which is very different than what is it that I don't want? Which is what you've been doing, right? Like you've been walking away from judgment like, I don't want that. Let me just sort of fall into the next one. Okay. So I think now that you're sort of at a crossroads of what is it that you want? And that decision doesn't need to be permanent. But if you have clarity around what it is that you want, then we can determine, okay, well, what are some of the things that you need to learn, which I think you've already identified.

39:03And there's no guarantee that it's going to be easy to learn them. But that's completely up to you. So as I say all that, you know, this question of what is it that you want, how does that land with you? I think what you said resonates with me a lot. I think it makes a lot of sense to me. I don't know. I mean, I don't know if it's just because I'm in the moment now, but I feel like I don't know if it's what I thought I wanted, you know, over the last four or five years. That's what's been like my pursuit. And I'm kind of at the point where I'm kind of taking a step back. It's like, you know, is this really what I want?

39:42I don't know. Like, I think I still do. I mean, I don't know if I'm naturally good at those things that we had talked about as key for leading an org, building influence, and those type of things. And that's where I'm kind of struggling a little bit with, just personally, just trying to think through. I don't know if those come that naturally for me. But on the other hand, the problems that I get to solve at those levels are very interesting to me. there's a strong desire for me to scale sort of my impact in a positive way and i can't i can't necessarily do that as much as like an ic and so those are kind of what i'm trying to weigh and you know i have this desire in this hand and then needing to kind of develop the skills and really like learn what i what i need to develop right so like you know i think this experience has taught me things that are gaps that I've had.

40:44I understand. I understand fully. Okay. First of all, not all leadership skills are going to come naturally to you. I have yet to meet somebody where everything just comes naturally to them. Okay. People will say, look like it does, but doesn't. They practice, they work on it. Okay. I think the question is, Are you coachable in them? Can you learn them enough? But we'll go back to your ability to learn them has to be supported because you want to, because it leads to an outcome that you would like to go after.

41:24We've touched on some really important points in this session with Jeff so far. Because he was able to admit that he was concerned about what was happening at his job, we were able to work through what he currently thinks and feels about his situation and how he might reframe that. Jeff wanted to explore what skills he needs to be able to sustain his career progression. And while skills are important and the area that most people feel they need to lean into, it's not only critical to identify them, it's also vital that you ask yourself whether you truly are committed to working on them. Without the motivation to do so, it can make your situation even more difficult than need be.

42:02So with Jeff, I was curious about why he even wanted to further develop his leadership skills and lean into his desire to be a leader.

42:15The reality of it is you find the content and the impact that you can make at the leadership level very appealing. It's what attracts you. You look at that and you're like, that's the type of impact I want to make. That's the type of work I want to be doing. But then there's a part of you that's like, yeah, but I don't want to do the other stuff. You know, the other stuff that's part of it. Okay. That's not reality. That's fantasy. You know, I wish I could tell you, yeah, you don't have to do it. And maybe, maybe, maybe you can find a company or you can start your own company where that's the case, you know.

42:53But in terms of where you are now, that formula doesn't work here. And, you know, for the most part, there's always going to be elements of what you do that don't come naturally to you, that are a little bit more uncomfortable, that you have to learn, that are not your favorite thing to do. The question becomes, is it worth it? Is it worth it? It's like that basketball player. I think it's Michael Jordan, I think, or LeBron James or Kobe Bryant. I don't know. one of them, you'll probably correct me. The one who like, would like be out shooting, you know, all night past midnight over and over and over and over again, while the teammates were off doing whatever they were doing, you know, over and beyond, because that was the one area or part of their game that they needed to hone in on.

43:42And I can't answer, nobody can answer that for you, Jeff. You have to say, is it worth it? Is the learning these skills and practicing these skills, even though they feel against the grain to you right now, even though they feel uncomfortable right now, is it worth it to you? But as long as you stay in the, I want this, but I wish I didn't have to do that, all you're doing is sort of resisting the reality of things. And that's keeping you at your low point. I'm not, you know, in any ways pushing you to answer the question now, But I think these are the questions that you need to sit with. Yeah, I think that that's helpful.

44:25I don't know if I know the answer for me. I think the answer is yes. But I think it takes some reflection because I feel like processing it. Yeah, the question of it is worth it. You know, when I think back about like the different roles and companies I've taken. And, you know, I felt like I was motivated by things over really reflecting on kind of what's authentic for me. My first role was like, it was really about like, I didn't know what I wanted to do. So the company that gave me like the highest offer and it sounded like the most prestigious, like kind of, you know, went there and it wasn't for me.

45:05So I don't know. Maybe I'm just rambling and processing aloud. But I process out loud. Yeah, I'm a internal processor. So this is the way you phrased the question, I think is a helpful thing to think about. Like, what is it that I am seeking after? And is it still worth it for me? I think in you thinking through that question, you've mentioned the words, you know, authentic to you a few times. Okay. And let me just offer something here. There's a difference between a skill coming naturally to you or not feeling uncomfortable or not being hard and you being authentic to you. People get those confused.

45:53They think, you know, being authentic just means, you know, everything that I'm doing feels easy to me. Being authentic to you means being true to you, whatever true to you means at this moment. At that moment, when you took that job earlier on and it was because it paid good money and it was a good role, you were being true to yourself. You wanted good money and you wanted a good, you know, wanted to work for a brand name company. That's what was true to you then. But maybe your truth is different now. And I think that's what you need to determine. Like not so much what are the skills. Those are important.

46:32But I would start with what feels true to me now. What feels aligned with what's important to me right now on the inside, not just on the outside. The outside needs to be a reflection of what's important to you on the inside. and I think what you've been operating with is like oh I you know yes there are certain things that are important to you on the outside you know good paying job prestige whatever all the things that we can get you know entrapped by and now it's like oh but is it really aligned with what's important to me on the inside but I haven't yet heard from you what's important to you internally like what moves you what energizes you what is purposeful for you you know what gives meaning And I think that's where the tension is.

47:20So that's where the authenticity is going to come. Right. The authenticity is going to come when what you deem important to you in terms of values and what provides meaning is aligned with what you're doing on the outside. in terms of job role organization. And even when you are activating some of the skills or learning some of the skills that you deem don't come to you naturally, like, you know, building relationship with senior level leaders, it's okay that they don't come naturally to you. It's okay that their heart because they are in service of something that you give meaning to, something that's important to you.

48:11And, you know, that doesn't mean like, oh, it's going to say the word. If what's important to you is, I'm just going to make something up, right? If what's important to you at this point in time is, you know, I want to be able to have, you were talking about your dad, right? Let's say it's, I want to be able to have time with my dad. Okay. So you asking for support is in service of that. You saying I'm going to have a role with more of an individual contributor scope, or I'm going to take a managerial job, but at a different organization that's not as large or scope is in service of that. I'm making that up, but that's where I'm trying.

48:52I'm just trying to simplify what the link looks like. Yeah, this resonates with me a lot. I like the thought of separating the skills from being authentic. So I think I've always sort of held this internal belief that because certain things felt like I was pushing against the grain a little bit, you know, maybe this is not the path for me. So it's actually helpful for me to redefine my way or reframe how I think about authenticity, which is more in line with inner values or, you know, my values and my priorities. because like i you know i'm i'm very introverted by nature and so i think one of the challenges when i first entered the workforce uh i was very uncomfortable like in like presentations and like those type of things um so i was you know i think i always questioned whether those were paths for me and i kind of just sort of stuck with it you know by virtue of uh defaulting to like grit and hard work.

49:52But it's helpful to think of it that way. You know, I mean, these are skills that I've gradually developed over time, you know, I'm not that's still not the most charismatic person you ever meet. But it's, but yeah, I think it's, yeah, it's helpful to think of it that way. Yeah. I mean, look, I think it's just that it comes down to what do you want to honor the most, right? Even if you said, for example, hey, yeah, I'm introverted, and I want to honor that. I actually cherish that about myself. You know, I mean, the book Quiet was phenomenal in terms of unleashing the power of those who tend to be a bit more quieter or who are introverts.

50:32Okay. If you want to fully embrace that, that's fine. Like, let that be the starting point. But then it's like, okay, so what does that mean in terms of what I want to do rather than the other way around. Okay. And I also want to be a realist. You know, I could sit here and say, you know, my most fundamental value is that I want to win. And then I decide, oh, the way I want to express that is to be like a professional basketball player. Well, it doesn't matter how much I practice, to be honest. I will be able to play up to a certain level. But I'm not, I mean, at some point I have to say, yes, even though I might excel, I have relative to those who can reach the WNBA or the NBA.

51:15I have limitations, maybe my height or just my dexterity or my mobility or my age or whatnot. And okay, I get that, but I'm still fulfilling my purpose up until a certain level. So you also want to be realistic. And there's a thin line between you know when are you leading and living according to what you see as your purpose and what brings you meaning versus just chasing because that's what you're used to doing so it's just an inversion when you can sit with these questions and ask yourself okay like what is important to me? What do I value? And if these are the things I value, what are the skills that I want to learn?

52:05And do I want to learn them? Is it worth it to me? Then the next question becomes, is this the place where I can do it? And is this the place where I want to do it? Right? It's both a can and a want. Because it might be that you say, you know what, Muriel, You might call me up a couple weeks from now, a couple months from now and say, you know what? I want to go full throttle in learning, get out of my comfort zone and cultivating the senior leadership. I'm going to try to do it. The question is, can I do it here? I don't know. Do you still have access to those leaders? Are you positioned in a place where you can do it?

52:46And if you can, great. Yeah. Why not? Try it. Learn it. If not, then it may be time to find opportunities where you get another at bat around that. So I think part of it, Jeff, is sometimes we tend not to look at, you know, going back to kind of your metaphor around relationships, right? We tend to not look at relationships, even work ones, as places that give us an opportunity to learn. We go there to succeed. And another aspect of it is there are also places to learn. And maybe one of the metrics you can use is, is this not only a place where I can succeed, but does this place have the right conditions to allow me to learn the things that I want to learn and that I need to learn?

53:44which is very different that every time a lesson learned comes up to say oh time to go

53:55yeah these are good questions i think for me to ponder i think you know just my intuitive sense as we're talking is that i do think i need to i think you described it as like you know sort of chasing versus sort of being driven by kind of being like your purpose. I do think there's some of that chasing piece that I'm trying to shed, but I do think this is a path that I still want to pursue. There are definitely things about, you know, as I'm kind of thinking about not just the needs I'm not good at, but, you know, I think there's definitely things and think that I really enjoyed about, you know, building and leading a team, particularly around sort of like building team culture with psychological safety, and then sort of bring different perspectives, you know, as an introvert or in the way that I think about things.

54:42That is part of why I kind of want to progress in leadership is like build these like more positive cultures on teams. The question of like, can I do it here and where can I learn here? I think is a good one. I think there's still an opportunity. I think I still have touch points and access to the senior leaders. And there is an opportunity here yeah so that's something for me to think about i don't know if i still want want to be here because i've also been here for some time so it might be a good chance for me to go to a place where i can also learn different things as well okay yeah thinking about it from that perspective like whether you go or you stay how are you going to approach it is much more proactive than than reactive the reactive is i'm just trying to get away from the situation the proactive is what's the situation that I'm trying to now create, given what's already happened.

55:37Okay. So it's an acceptance of where you are now, as hard as it might've been. It's an acceptance of it. That's the reality of it. Doesn't mean being passive. Being passive is doing nothing. Active acceptance is saying, okay, it is what it is. I see it for what it is now. How do I want to move forward? and you have options versus defaulting. So let's try to recap a little bit. I feel like where we've gotten to, rather than a to-do list for you of like, here are the three steps you can take. I think your to-do list is probably some questions that you need to sit with further and to work through further and that's okay, right?

56:23That just means that there's more opening that needs to happen for you. and so I just would love to hear two things the first is how do you feel now at the end of our conversation versus when we first got started and secondly if you had to sort of sit with two or three questions over the next couple of weeks and we assume that you and I were meeting in a couple of weeks, right? And I let you choose which questions you wanted to work on. What would those be? Okay. So let's start with the first one. Like, how are you feeling now versus when we first started this coaching session? I feel good. I mean, I feel more positive.

57:10I think I feel like I have a broadened perspective on my situation. You've brought some things that I haven't thought about and that perspective before which i find helpful so yeah i feel good i feel kind of motivated to kind of take the next steps on the two to three questions i think for me it's the the first question is and i think i have a good sense of it but i think what are my values and priorities today that would reflect being authentic to kind of where i'm at now and kind of thinking through what those would be And then I think the second question would be, am I able to do those things in my current role and current place?

57:59And then my third question would be, if not, what would the other options look like? That's great. That's great, Jeff, because I think your default has been to go straight to number three. That's true. what's next rather than peeling back and asking some other questions to help inform where you go next if if anywhere so answer those questions email me send me your responses i i'm being serious like i would love to see where you net out okay yeah that'd be great that'll be my little accountability for you thank you thank you for that yeah no thank you thank you so much.

58:48When Jeff came to the coaching conversation, he was facing a bit of a harsh reality that he had worked hard in an industry that excited him, had had some success, and recently had been feeling like he was backsliding. While these kinds of setbacks can be discouraging, they're also opportunities ripe for learning. The most effective path to leadership is not linear. It's often a series of zigzags with lessons learned at each inflection point. But only if you take a moment to think it through and do the work, rather than just move on to the next gig. In Jeff's case, he used this moment in his career to take stock of himself, what he wanted, and what he needed to do to move forward to align his career with his core values and what's most important to him.

59:34Something everyone would benefit from doing from time to time.

59:47That's it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. And that's a wrap on season five. We'll be back with more episodes in the fall. In the meantime, if you want more of Coaching Real Leaders, join our community where I host live discussions to unpack the coaching sessions you hear on this show. Become a member at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. You can also find me and my newsletter on LinkedIn at Muriel Wilkins. Thanks to my producer, Mary Dute, sound editor, Nick Kringko, music composer, Brian Campbell, my assistant, Emily Sofa, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys.

1:00:30If you're dealing with a leadership challenge, I'd love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show. apply at coachingrealleaders.com. And of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward, share it with your friends, subscribe and leave a review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. From the HBR Podcast Network, I'm Muriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.