How Do I Overcome My Disillusionment with the Executive Team? | Coaching Real Leaders | Podcast

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0:58I'm Yaria Wilkins and this is Coaching Real Leaders, part of the HBR Presents Network. I'm a longtime executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who've hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them so that hopefully they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show, we have a one-time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they're facing.

1:33Today's guest is someone we'll call Michael to protect his confidentiality. He's been in his current leadership role for several years, helping to support a number of teams across a diverse region. how I've got to the role that I'm in today is really by demonstrating a desire of willingness to develop within the organizations that I've worked for so I'm very much a people-centric leader and I feel like that's really helped me in my journey and I have an appreciation and a real respect for the team that does the work every day and that's really helped me in my career today. Michael works hard to ensure that his teams deliver on the targets set by the company every year and are continuously improving.

2:21He believes he's found effectiveness in this role because of his leadership style. I'm able to relate to all levels within the organization. I enjoy spending time on the floor, engaging with the team, understanding their challenges and their frustrations and then being able to provide solutions and input to that to make their job better and more rewarding and to really foster the team environment. And when I sort of look at the leadership models, the one that really aligns with my beliefs is really a servant leader approach and really being able to be there as a servant for those team members and to really help them be the best that they can be.

3:05While it sounds like much is going well for Michael with his teams, he reached out because he's been struggling with what's happening with the senior leadership team above him. And so I started by asking him to elaborate on his situation. Through my working career, one thread that I've noticed is that as a senior leader, I become disillusioned with an organisation when I see the executive leaders not demonstrating the values of the organisation, not living the values, not applying the values. And what that causes is a loss of performance, my performance, and my commitment to the organization in support of the current and the future goals.

3:53It impacts my brand because I start to lose the motivation to really commit medium to long term to the organization. And it makes me a less effective leader. What I'm really hoping that we can get out of today's session is strategies that I can apply when I'm faced in similar situations in the future that can ensure that I don't lose that sort of brand awareness or that acknowledgement from executive teams that I'm someone that's supportive of the future and that my commitment and my drive to do the job to the best of my ability continues. So what I hear you saying is that when you start feeling like the way the senior leadership team is acting is not aligned with the company.

5:04Always wear your seatbelt. Star Wars, The Mandalorian and Grogu. Now streaming on Disney+. Rate PG-13. Propel Fitness Water. With Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar, and vitamins. Propel hydrates better than water. To help you get the most out of your workout. And get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade electrolytes. Any values that they're espousing. it causes you to become demotivated. And as a result, it impacts your performance. And then potentially as a result of that, the way you're perceived by that senior team. Yes. Okay. I want to kind of unpack that a little bit because there's a lot there.

5:51It was like a mouthful for me to say, right? There's a lot of different players. So help me understand where the, you used the word getting disillusioned. Help me understand where the disillusionment comes from. What are you disillusioned about? The disillusionment comes about from, I feel like I am supporting, I'm living, I'm modeling the way when it comes to bringing the values to life in the organization. And then when I see the executive team doing the opposite of that, where they don't demonstrate the commitment to the values, and sometimes they do aspects that are contrary to the values, that's where the disillusion comes.

6:37Okay. And I feel sometimes that what I tend to do is I project my standards. So I have a high bar of expectation within myself and the way that I demonstrate my performance and my behaviour workplace. And at times I feel like I'm projecting that same standard onto the executive team, but I shouldn't really have to because that executive team is actually more senior than I am. And I feel as though they should be the ones that should be setting the standard or the bar higher. And so where did that expectation come from that because they're more senior than you, they should set the bar higher? I think it comes back from the start of my working career where as a supervisor looking up to a manager or a manager looking up to a general manager, a general manager looking up to a regional manager.

7:37So always looking at the more senior person as being a person that needs to have a higher level of standards and a higher level of behavior that really inspires people, that becomes almost a motivational aspect of what the person can sort of work towards. Right. And so you have an expectation around that, that those who are more senior, who hold the highest leadership positions in the organization, behave and act in a particular way at a standard, as you put it, that's even higher than the one that you set for yourself, right? Yeah. That's your assumption, your belief of what should be happening.

8:22Correct. And how is that expectation or holding that assumption and that belief working out for you? Well, most of the time that doesn't work out well for me because I see an incongruence there, and that starts me on the cycle of becoming disillusioned with the organization. I would say, however, there have been senior leaders, more executive leaders that I've worked with in the past that really have been inspiring and have set up a high standard that I've been able to learn and I've been able to develop from. But that type of leader is very few and far between. Okay. So, you know, in what you're sharing, I'm almost feeling like there's like a, you know, if so, then that type of formula, right?

9:16Like if the senior leader is a servant leader or operates at a high standard, according to the organizational values, is that model leader that quite frankly, we all wish we had, right? Star Wars, The Mandalorian and Grogu is now streaming on Disney+. What are you waiting for? Hop on. The must-see galactic adventure comes home on Disney+. This is the way. Our only chance is to work together. I like this kid. Always wear your seatbelt. Star Wars The Mandalorian and Grogu. Now streaming on Disney+. Read PG-13. Propel Fitness Water. With Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar, and vitamins. Propel hydrates better than water.

10:07to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade Electrolytes. Then you perform at the level that you know you can perform at, at the highest level. Second scenario is if the leader is one that is not the model leader citizen and does not walk the talk when it comes to the corporate values, then you end up becoming disillusioned and unmotivated. Are those the two scenarios? Correct, yes. Yes. Okay. And so what would it look like if you had a senior leader who did not walk the talk and you still performed at a high level? Is that even a possibility?

11:02It is. So what that would look like would be maybe becoming a more senior leader in the eyes of others through my demonstration of the values in comparison to theirs. So maybe that's the opportunity to raise my standards, but to be able to be seen as someone who is performing at a higher level, who has the opportunity to go further within the organization that is a more senior leader that models the way based on a commitment to the values of the organization. All right. And so let's speak in a little bit more concrete terms. Like, give me an example, to the extent that you can, give me an example of a situation where you felt so impacted that it caused you to go down the disillusionment route.

12:00A situation that happened recently was the business had put pressure on the team to take their funds and use those as a way of being able to provide for their families over a short period of time. whilst the business was going through a challenging period. Instead of being able to provide an opportunity for that team to be able to continue their employment for that short period of time and not have to draw from their retirement fund just to be able to survive on a daily basis. And those conversations that were had really cemented to me that the senior leaders were not living the values of the organization.

12:54They weren't providing the care and the responsibility for the team, but rather they were just focused on the short-term outcomes to be able to deliver the monthly and the quarterly results. Okay. And so they were focused on the short-term outcomes. you assess that that's not really living up to the values of the organization. They're not doing the right thing, right? Quote unquote. And so as a result of that, how did it impact you? The impact on myself was really a drop in performance, a drop in commitment, a poor attitude towards the organization in its strategic view, its direction. and although I was doing the basics, the fundamentals within my role, I wasn't doing anything over and above that.

13:50So in some ways I was going through the motions of my role and not actually performing at a standard or an expectation that I would have of myself. Okay. And how did that make you feel? It made me feel a bit disappointed in myself and I reflected a lot on how I got to that particular point. Star Wars The Mandalorian and Grogu is now streaming on Disney+. What are you waiting for? Hop on. The must-see galactic adventure comes home on Disney+. This is the way. Our only chance is to work together. I like this kid. Always wear your seatbelt. Star Wars The Mandalorian and Grogu. Now streaming on Disney+.

14:41Read PG-13. Propel Fitness Water. With Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar, and vitamins. Propel hydrates better than water. To help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade electrolytes. And in some ways, I would justify through the actions of the executive team. And what they did substantiates my behavior, my lack of performance, my lack of drive and commitment to the organization. So what they did, did this to you? Yes. Where's your choice in all of this? My choice is that I don't need to allow those types of events or actions to impact on who I am and the role that I play.

15:37And my performance should be to my standards, to my expectations and not deflect on the actions of other people that results in a loss of performance overall. Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting to me, Michael, because you have eloquently articulated the misalignment that you see between senior leaders in your organization and who they espouse to be in terms of the values that they have said are the corporate values, right? So you see this misalignment happen. And as a result, what happens is you misalign. You end up in a place of misalignment between yourself and the leader that you want to be.

16:31And so you've created, and I'm going to say created, you know, this causality, almost this rule of as long as the top leaders are aligned with the corporate values, then I will be aligned, right, with high performance. But if you see your leaders don't align with the corporate values, then I'm not going to align with performing. And, you know, I mean, that's one way of doing it. But I think if that way of doing it was satisfactory for you, you wouldn't be here, right? You wouldn't experience the disappointment that you've had. Okay. So I think the question that we need to start with is, how do you want to show up as a leader consistently, regardless of what's happening?

17:17I want to show up as a leader that lives the values of the organization, that demonstrates a commitment to the people, and that brings his best every day into the workplace, that ensures that I meet my expectations, my standards, and my performance isn't impacted by other people's decisions or actions. And so what would make that possible for you to do that on most days that's within your control? It's an interesting question. I think the thing that might help me in achieving that outcome is being clear as to the purpose that I play within an organisation, the reason my role exists, the values that I bring.

18:12And I feel too the standards. So being clear on my standards and being able to ensure that I'm consistently meeting those standards and, if anything, improving on those standards so that my brand and my reputation is continually improving. It's not staying the same or it's not regressing back. So being clear on the standards is certainly an important part. Yeah. And so I think you just sort of came up with your own framework, right? Which is I need to understand and have clarity around why I'm here and leading, number one. Number two, what are the values that... Star Wars, The Mandalorian and Grogu is now streaming on Disney+.

19:06What are you waiting for? Hop on. The must-see galactic adventure comes home on Disney+. This is the way. Our only chance is to work together. I like this kid. Always wear your seatbelt. Star Wars The Mandalorian and Grogu. Now streaming on Disney+. Read PG-13. Propel Fitness Water. With Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar, and vitamins, Propel hydrates better than water. to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade Electrolytes. I lead by. And number three, what are my operating standards? Okay, the way that I do things. And checking yourself, whether it's good times or bad times, how aligned are you to those three things?

20:06You know, it's really easy to stay aligned to what's happening from a corporate perspective when everything's going well, you know, when everybody's doing what they're supposed to be doing and behaving the way they're supposed to be doing. Super easy to do. But then the real question is what happens when, you know, when the storm hits, when it starts pouring, when it's raining and things aren't as clear. or quote unquote nice? What do you hold on to?

20:42A hard truth that many of my coaching clients end up having to come to terms with is just how much is out of their control, especially when it comes to their coworkers. That reality becomes even more visible in situations where you need to manage up. Whether that's a small disagreement or a bigger values issue that arises between you and more senior leaders, the fact remains the same. The only person's behavior who we can really control is our own. But before we can really change our response, it helps to look at how we're approaching the issue in the first place. In Michael's case, he's used the word disillusionment several times in our conversation, which intrigued me, because in order to become disillusioned, an illusion has to exist.

21:23So I was curious what exactly was the illusion Michael was holding on to. I think the illusion that I've been carrying is that senior executive leaders are operating at a higher standard, a higher level of value expectations than other leaders in the organisation. and that senior and executive leaders should model the way in being able to bring the values to life, but to also be the role models, the mentors to other managers within the organization as to the standards that we are working towards, that we're trying to attain. Okay. And so maybe we can rename that as being an aspiration, but it's not reality all the time.

22:18It's reality sometimes, but it's not reality all the time. Believe me. If it was reality all the time, I would be out of a job. I would not exist in this profession. Okay. So the illusion is that it's there all the time. That's your illusion number one. Should you expect it? Absolutely. It's an aspiration, but you also want to hold the reality that it doesn't happen all the time. So then what? I think the second illusion, if I may offer one, is you have this unwritten rule of the way the senior leaders behave dictates how Michael behaves and how Michael performs. And so inherent in that illusion is where where's Michael the leader?

23:04Where's your voice? What do you stand for? And so I think part of this path is kind of being able to anchor yourself in who you are as a leader. And only you can define that. Do you feel like you have a definition of what that is for you? I do. I feel like for me, the definition of who I am as a leader is that senior leader that really provides support and motivation and guidance through the teams that really looks to continuous improvement as a way of being able to improve myself, but then to also help improve the teams. And this is where I think because continuous improvement is part of my role and certainly part of who I am as a person, wanting to be able to develop and learn how I can become more effective and a more impactful senior leader is really what helps drive me to continue to be better in the job that I do today and into the future.

24:15So I feel like I've got a good sense of who I am and what I want to work towards. However, I do need to go back to your points of understanding that why the values and the operating system to be able to deliver on those outcomes. Yeah. I mean, look, I think that, you know, clearly you're somebody who's committed to growth, right? Growth for yourself, growth for your people. And I think that's probably what causes the rub with the senior people. Like, you're not seeing them growing in a way that's more aligned with the aspirational leader. Doesn't feel like you're getting continuous improvement from the top.

25:00And so I think the question is, can you still be this continuous improvement leader, the leader who's committed to growth and development, in spite of those senior leaders not demonstrating the same attributes? Do you think it's possible to be that type of leader within the construct that you're in? I think I can be and I think I need to be because the organisation that I'm in today might not be too dissimilar to an organisation that I'm part of in the future. Being able to focus on the factors that are under my control, the way that I show up to work every day, the performance that I deliver and the way that I demonstrate the values and the commitment to the organisation is certainly something that I can influence and ensure that I consistently apply that.

25:54And I would like to be able to improve the way that I do that tomorrow and next week and next month and make sure that, you know, I am that role model that potentially I'm sort of looking for those senior leaders to be. So part of this, maybe what I need to do is I need to move away and not be influenced by the senior leaders that are within the organizations that aren't meeting the expectations that I feel they should be or the standards that they are delivering and actually be that role model that shows that Michael's the right person. Yeah. You know, one of my favorite quotes is by Gandhi that said, I think it said, be the change that you want to see in the world.

26:42So for you, you can learn by contrast and what you're learning is by contrast, you're seeing these leaders and you're like, oh, that is not the way that I think leadership should happen. And then you have a choice. You can follow suit. You can do something different, or you can just do nothing, just not pay attention to it. And what's most important for you to not lose yourself, because the disappointment that you've experience is really the disappointment in yourself. I mean, you had disappointment towards them, but you're also disappointed in yourself that it impacted you. And so this notion of you really, Michael, asking yourself, how can I model the behavior that I think or the leadership that I think is going to be most effective for my team?

27:33How can I do that, even if others are not, is what's critical here. So what would get in the way of you being able to start doing that right after this coaching meeting? I don't think there's anything that can get in the way. I think I'm responsible for how I show up in the workplace and the way that I communicate and deliver on performance and expectations. So there are no barriers that prevent me from doing that. And part of this is considering how I change my mindset when it comes to these situations so that going forward, I don't become that leader that becomes disillusioned and uncommitted and a poor performer, but rather I become that person that rises above, demonstrates the values and becomes that role model, that sort of person that people can aspire to become.

28:43Yeah. So, you know, I'm going to come back to this word that you keep on using, which is disillusionment, right? Because I think that that's the practice for you. Like, that is part of when this happens for you again. The question that you can ask yourself when you notice it's happening, because I'm assuming you notice when you start feeling disillusioned, Do you? I should check that with you. How do you recognize that you're in that place? I feel it. I reflect on it. And it feels like, here we go again. This is a feeling I've had before, different organizations, different situations, but I recognize it when it happens.

29:20Okay. So I love that you said, well, I'm saying I love that you said, you probably don't love that it happens, but that you're like, here we go again. Okay. Whenever you hear, here you go again, That is a sign. You are caught up. You are caught up in the cyclone. And so the question is, do you want to break that pattern that you've been in? Or do you want to stay in it? There are a couple of things that can break the pattern. The context, right? You can get out of the situation, get out of the cyclone's way, and you break the pattern momentarily. You can try to change the others, meaning change the senior leadership team, and that breaks the pattern.

30:03But good luck with that in the short term. And the third option to break the pattern is for you to do something differently, to respond to the situation differently. You already know what happens if you do nothing. You get into this cycle of disillusionment, disappointment, lower performance, impacts your brand. you've seen, you've shared with me that movie play over and over and over again. So now we want a different ending. And so what's the new ending that you want for this movie? The new ending would be a continuation of my strong performance and my strong commitments and a focus on controlling the controllables in the role that I play within the organization and to also be able to differentiate myself so that if the other senior leaders are not living the values and not performing to the standards that I believe that they should be, that I am, and that separates me in a good way.

31:13So that's your starting point. You have to have a good sense of what you want the outcome to be, which is why we've talked about, well, what's the type of leader you want to be in order to then be able to dial it back and say, okay, well then how do I even need to see the situation? And so whenever you start feeling this disillusionment, I think the place for you to start is, well, what's the illusion that I'm reacting to? And so you have to be able to separate what's the illusion versus what's the reality of things. And the reality of it at that moment is these leaders are making decisions that really are not aligned with the corporate values.

32:00That's it. It's happening, whether I like it or not, whether it's fair or not. So you see it for what it is. And then you respond. Then you make a decision. How do I want to respond to this situation? I think that's a good change of perspective. And I think that that allusionment piece is critical because it is what I perceive it to be, be it right, be it wrong. And I need to just understand that it is what it is, that is the situation. And potentially the way that I perceive it doesn't mean it to be correct either. It's just my lens that I'm looking through and, but not being able to allow that to impact on me as a senior leader.

32:52So whether it's right or wrong, I mean, who's here to say, right? But you can certainly make an assessment around, you see what the corporate values are, you see how people are behaving. You know, you can make an assessment as whether it's aligned or not. It's as long as you're seeing that clearly, rather than staying stuck in the how you think it should be. Because by staying stuck in the how you think it should be, it is paralyzing you from responding to the way that it actually is. That's the difference. When you stay stuck in, this is how I think it should be, how these leaders should act, we already know how that turns out for you.

33:36You get discouraged. it disappoints you because it rubs against the very things that you deem as important. So if we shift from what we would like it to be to this is what is actually happening, this is how it is now, whether I like it or not, then you can make a better assessment around how do you want to be going through that? How do you want to lead during that time? So it's not really a matter of perception. It's a matter of shifting from a place of how you would like it to be to a place of this is actually what it is.