How Do I Shift My Leadership Style as My Team Expands? | Coaching Real Leaders | Podcast

27:02And if they haven't done it, then that's what we then call, it's an untested area. We don't know if they've done it or not. Okay. We don't know yet. And so you now have to provide opportunity for them to be able to flex their muscle in that particular area. So let's say, you know, one of them is in problem solving. You're not giving them the opportunity to even test out and grow in that area if you're swooping in and doing it for them. Right. And you're not even swooping in there. They're like pulling you in. And so, again, number one, have they done it? Yes. No. No. OK. Untested. Now I've got to give them an opportunity.

27:48How do I do that? Next time they come to me and say, this is something I'm working through, goes back to what you said earlier. You might need to not be so willing, not because you don't care, but for the sake of their growth and their development, to be able to say, I'm happy to help, but not yet. I would like you to do this on your own. How does that land with you? It feels very unfamiliar. In what way? Yeah, it feels like 20 grit sandpaper. very rough. I understand trying not to do too much and let them have a chance to try it on their own and encourage them to do that and stay out of it. What if what their plan is, maybe somebody comes to me and says, Hey, I've got this issue and they are more capable.

28:42And they say, here's a couple of ways I'm thinking of solving this. What's your opinion? And we volley back and forth. And I let them encourage them to talk out which one they're in favor of and then support that. So I don't just give them what I would do. I just help them like you're helping me evaluate their decisions and they come to the conclusion. What would happen if I know that that's not going to be a fruitful way of doing that? How would I handle that? I'll give you a real world example. There's a direct report of mine who has an excellent track record, was with me at the other division.

29:17I've seen him grow and develop. He definitely is committed, very capable. He is asking me to help him with solving a problem for the first time he's encountered it. And that is terminating an employee. He's never had to do that, but we're at the point where he's got to do that. And he has pulled me into that. I really feel like you should be here. I got to have you involved in this. And putting, you know, HR formalities aside, we have other people who could be there with him, but he has no experience doing that. And that's a pretty high stakes problem to solve wrong. So how do I help them in really high stakes situations like that by staying out of it?

30:04Do I put a resource with them that's an expert, but it's not me? Or do do I do the first one thing? Whatever it is, may not be terminating an employee as serious as that, but do I do a little bit of it with them? Help me understand that. Once again, I think you're coming up with your own answers. I think there's a gradient. It's never going to be black or white. The critical thing that you said here, though, that I think you can hold is how high are the stakes? meaning how risky is this decision we're about to make so as the leader of that organization you are also the manager of risk okay that's right so you can ascertain or discern or make a judgment call around what are the issues relative to risk that really warrant your involvement versus those where you can back off a little bit so that then you feel that you're creating development opportunities for them, learning opportunities for them where, you know, if things go wrong, yeah, it might hurt a little bit, but it ain't that bad.

31:19But only you can make that discernment. And so you have to assess it. And I think what we're coming up with is criteria for you to determine how involved you should be. One of them is how capable is the person? The second is situational. What are the stakes of this situation? What's the level of risk associated with it? Well, the higher the level of risk and the lower the skill of the individual, the more of Alex we need. Right. But something where the risk and skill are matched, maybe just untested, but the risk and skill are matched. Let them try it out. Yeah. Why not? If it goes wrong, it may sting, but it's not going to sting for super long.

32:01And that's the judgment call happening. That's right. Because if not, what you're creating is, you know, a term that we call learned helplessness. Right. I don't know if you're familiar with that term. I'm not until just now. What do you think it means? Yeah, exactly what the two words mean is I'm teaching them to go on about their day and when they need something, come get me and I'll do it for them. That's right. That's right. And you know, I mean, how does that serve you, Alex, in any way? It really doesn't, except for it creates a lot of unexpected upward delegation. Yeah. And takes me out of doing important things.

32:41Right. What's interesting to me is that that model worked for you in the past, because as you said, the scope was smaller. It's probably where you drew a lot of your own self-value in terms of what you brought to the table to your team. But now as your organization has grown, you're realizing, oh my gosh, what used to be comfortable is now uncomfortable because it's keeping me from adding value, right? So what was a value add before potentially now is a value drainer for you. So it's not to say that you never help your people. Like that's not what we're saying at all. It just means that it looks different.

33:25And as much as you have to level up, they need to level up as well. I understand that. I really understand that. May I bounce the situation off of you that occurred recently? I'm listening to what you're saying, and I feel like maybe the process, I already understand. I just am not executing it at a high level every time. I had a direct report, and his direct report, there's a couple layers of management in that area, have an issue with an employee that I would consider high risk if they were to resign. I'm a key player, a player. And they approached me and said, you know, we know that we need to restore the trust in this relationship with this individual.

34:15It's broken. We need to keep him on the team and we need to do it in a way that works for him and us. Can you help us understand how we would some best practices to do that with this individual? We set up a time and I walked them through some good questions to ask themselves before going into that discussion. Kind of help them learn just in general through my experiences when people take things super seriously and when they don't, you know, what does that language look like? What's the setting look like? And then said, well, why don't you all let me know when you're going to do that and then let me know how it went.

34:55And I feel like reflecting on that situation, I did a pretty good job of assessing, hey, this is a pretty high risk situation. These two individuals happen to also be very capable so that they really don't need me to do it. They may just need me to help them think through it. Is that kind of where you were going with that practice? Well, I think it's kind of where you're going, because what you just articulated there is you didn't delegate fully and you weren't super directive. You didn't tell them, well, here are the three things I need you to do. What you did is you coach them as a manager, not coach like how I coach, but you basically were using coaching skills as a manager by asking them questions, by helping them sort of process through it until they could come up with their own answer.

35:44and potentially you weighed in on that answer. And so again, we can go back to this is very situational, right? There is no one check the box. This is what I do every single time. Are they confident to be able to complete the task? And do they have a willingness? How motivated are they to complete the task? And depending where they are on either of those two levers is how you then approach them as a manager. So if they are highly capable and highly committed, what do you think you can do? Just help them come to their own conclusion. You just delegate it, right? Right. If they are low capability, so low skill, but, you know, have some level, have a level of commitment, right?

36:32What do you think you need to do? Probably teach them the skills or work with them to raise their skill level. That's right. So you will be more directive. And then anything in between, you are being supportive and or you are coaching. And coaching is what you described in that situation. So for you, what you need to be able to do consistently is assess, assess, assess. And depending on what you're assessing, that's how you approach it, rather than having a one size fits all in terms of your approach. That makes good sense. We've talked a lot about capability. What about the situation where someone's capable but not committed?

37:16So what about that? How would you work with someone like that? I've faced that situation recently where it's, hey, I have this person and there's an issue and I just want to just let them go because there's so much apathy and they know they could coach through and work with them. How do I get them to that level? Is that expectation setting? So let's work through that, right? So this falls in the realm of being more, you know, coaching them and being supportive. And so what is it that's causing them to not be committed? I don't know. I would venture to say they just do not want to deal with it because it's a problem.

37:52I don't think I asked enough questions. What made you not ask those questions? What made me not ask those questions, just quite frankly, is this person very rarely even comes to me for assistance with anything and performs at a high level. And my reflecting, which you are doing a phenomenal job of making me do, I think what was going through my mind is, you know, this out of my five direct reports, this person is like the least of my efforts and they perform at a high level. They could just be having a bad day. Let me just handle this for them. Maybe like doing them a favor is what was coming through my mind rather than probing a little deeper.

38:34And so what's your goal with your people? I want to provide them with skill and experience and me with time. So all I would ask is, is your action, and we can look at that particular situation aligned with the goal? Probably not. Actually, definitely not. So it's not a right or wrong or a good or bad, right? It's just alignment. There's nothing wrong with doing somebody a favor, but I think, you know, there were a lot of assumptions baked into that. So I'd say the first thing is check your assumptions. I think the question that you said, like, why don't you want to call this person? What's going on?

39:11You know, what are you concerned about? So that you could understand what's at the root of what you're seeing or interpreting as potential lack of commitment. If you don't understand what's at the root of it, it's very hard to try to motivate the person. You don't know what you're motivating. So again, it's not black or white. You're literally having to discern and make a judgment call all along the way. What I want you to be aware of though is the actions that you can take in service of growing and developing your people, which is your ultimate goal so that it can also create some leverage for you is the action that you're then taking.

39:53What's the action that you're taking that's most aligned with that? So back to just assess, assess, assess. You know, you mentioned, well, what happens if somebody is just not committed at all? Like you've tried, you know, to understand what motivates them. You've tried to motivate them and you just can't get at it, right? Or on the flip side, the skill, like you've tried to teach the skill. you've sent them to training, you've provided all the resources so that they can build the skill, and that skill is just not being built, then you have a decision to make. Is that person sitting in the right seat on the bus?

40:32Because that also is your responsibility. It's like when your kids choose a sport and then you're watching them play that sport and you're like, oh my God, not the right sport for them, right? Or an instrument. At some point, it's like, maybe the interest needs to lie somewhere else. Unless they enjoy it. They're highly motivated, that's great. But that's only going to get them so far. Just like skill is going to get you, but so far, you also have to have the motivation. That's what you want to be constantly looking for over the long term.

41:11So far in our coaching conversation, Alex has made it very clear what his problem is and how he's been thinking about it. He's motivated to do better, not just at delegating, but at really scaling up his leadership. And we've talked through some specific scenarios as to times when he's swooped in to handle something instead of prodding someone he manages a bit deeper and guiding them into finding their answers themselves. It's a classic move that leaders need to make to learn to level up, to shift away from directly solving problems themselves. But as with any new muscle you need to build, there's some discomfort.

41:45To lead sustainably, he'll need to use this muscle on repeat rather than do it once and think he's done. But if he's not careful, he could let the discomfort get in the way.

42:01Let me ask you this, because when we first started talking about this, and I think I said, oh, you know, you need to have these conversations. So it was a specific conversation. And you said, yeah, that kind of like feels like I forget what you called it, but like sandpaper. It felt rough or uncomfortable. What was uncomfortable about it? What's uncomfortable is hearing you say this. When I think about capable and committed, I already am capable and I'm already committed enough to do this. I just simply haven't been doing it. And when you said that, that's what felt rough to me is, wow, I have known this all along and simply have not practiced self-discipline or enough restraint to execute at a high level.

42:47So, you know, when you say that, it means that you have certain expectations of yourself. That's right. That you should have done this. You're learning, as you said. You said you're thirsty to learn and grow. And so there is no, I should have known this if you're a learner. And one of the things that you can model to your team members is what it looks like to be a leader who's committed to learning and growing. Because that's what you're hoping they're doing. If what you model instead is that you already have the answer and you should know the answer, what do you think is going to happen? They're going to come to me for the answer every time.

43:36And what is happening? Exactly that. Exactly. Yeah, that's funny. You said earlier expectations, you know, have to match. What did you say? Your expectations have to match. I said a lot of things. I don't know. Yeah. You say your expectations have to match what they're able to do based on their level of capability and commitment, I think is what you said, right? I hear a lot of people say to me, your expectations are too high. Your expectations are too high. And I have those expectations for myself that are super high, like you just said. And I think that's a good takeaway for me is really assess that gap because part of the reason we're here today is the frustration that's coming from that gap.

44:24Right. Okay. And frustration, you might have heard me say this other times, frustration always comes from the gap between what you expect and the reality of what's happening. Right. And until you can come to terms with both, unless you're very well managed, frustration ensues. Now, does that mean you just have to kind of have low standards for your people or just say, oh, well, it is what it is. This is how they're going to be. No. Right. You want to see them for where they are. Like you have to accept the skill level at which they're at so that then you can decide what to do. It's not just so that you can say, oh, well, that's where they're at.

45:07Right. It's so that then you can decide what to do. You have to see it for what it is. Okay. And so that's one piece. And that's sort of what's happening presently. And at the same time, as the leader, you have to hold the belief of what they're capable of in the future. And that's their potential. So where there is a risk of you getting really frustrated is expecting them to be fulfilling their future potential today. That's, you know, what we call magical thinking. I do a lot of magical thinking. Right. Don't we all? Don't we all? That's the exact issue where my frustration lies is I, you know, I expect everybody to hold themselves to the highest standards I have for myself.

45:59And so then I cast that on them. And most people are just not can't think that way. My sense is, Alex, that you probably want to see yourself as a leader who inspires, not intimidates. Right. So when you and I'm not saying I don't get the sense from you that you intimidate in terms of your demeanor or your tone, but your knowledge might be so intimidating. Your ability to have the answer might be unconsciously intimidating to people that they would rather come to you to the answer than risk coming to you not knowing. And so what do you think you could do that would make others feel more comfortable coming to you, not knowing exactly what the answer is, but willing to take a risk that they will suggest a solution?

46:52that's a great way to put that i i've never thought about it that way but that is exactly what is occurring is people are coming to me because i'm such a wealth of knowledge they are so afraid to think anything other than what i've already thought and i think to answer your question maybe leading by example like you said and you know being maybe more visible about i'm working on or I'm learning or, or, you know, I don't know everything is important. Maybe encouraging them that I'd rather see them learn on their own than come to me with the answer. And if, if there's a rough journey to get there, that's okay.

47:31I'll be with them on the journey, but I'd rather them learn for themselves and just really make that apparent to them that it's not, I'm not I'm grading you on your decision if you do not know. I'll be grading you on your level of commitment to learn. Yeah. So what you're talking about, Alex, is two things, okay? One is you want to be explicit about creating some safety for them to learn, which is almost the same as safety for them to fail. And so what are the conditions that you can put in place or what are the things you can say, what are the things you can, actions you can take that create an environment, a culture of safety for real learning to happen?

48:19Because real learning doesn't happen without mistakes. Real learning doesn't happen without some missteps, some backsliding, et cetera. So that's one. And you have to think about that from a cultural standpoint, what it is that you're doing in your organization. I think the second thing is that in the individual level, when you said, hey, I need to lead by example. And so the question for you is, how do you demonstrate to your people, you know, day in, day out, that you also are a learner? That you don't have everything figured out all the time. And I think that's really a personal thing, because even here on this call, when we hit that one little piece where you were like, that's uncomfortable.

49:00And I said, what's uncomfortable? And you're like, I should have known that. I should have done it. Well, you didn't. You're a learner. And so getting comfortable with not knowing something or not doing something is your path that actually demonstrates that you're learning. And the more you can demonstrate that to your people, the more they're going to realize, oh, wow, like here's a guy I look up to. If he's willing to learn, maybe I can do that, too. I understand. You understand. And I hear a little hesitation. No, I still have that I should have done in the back of my mind. But you're exactly right.

49:40I've got to start looking inside and providing myself with a little bit of grace and then be open about and vulnerable enough to express that so people feel more comfortable doing that around me. Look, Alex, I think if you can actually rather than starting practicing that on your employees, if you can start practicing that on yourself, like treat yourself the way that we just talked about, you should treat your employees. You will have a much higher chance of being able to do it out there with them. okay you're going to have a really hard time cutting them some slack extending them a little bit of grace when they don't necessarily meet the you know quote-unquote expectation if you're not able to do it with yourself and just because you cut yourself some slack does not mean you're not holding yourself up to high expectations the two are not mutually exclusive it's i hold myself up and i hold my team up to high expectations and i support the fact that they're learning it's both that makes a tremendous amount of sense to me so let me ask you this what is one thing that you are walking away with from this conversation that you think you can start implementing immediately?

51:06I think the most important thing I can start working on as a learner is the last thing that you just said, and that's getting comfortable with being a learner myself first. But the thing I can implement right now is starting to look at the reason we're on this call today through the lens of, do expectations match capability and commitment? and out of those three, if they're not all in alignment, where is the misalignment? And then attack it from that angle. That's something I feel comfortable doing. I do it using that lens and I will beginning today. Great. You haven't been using it yet. Yes. And you're going to start today.

51:52All right. Yes. Well, listen, thank you. Thank you so much. I look forward to hearing how all of this goes for you. I appreciate it. Thank you.

52:05When it comes to scaling your leadership, it's not just about the number of people you're overseeing or how much revenue you're responsible for or the processes you put in place. Those are the concrete things. But scaling leadership is really about scaling others, helping them build their capacity. Because if they can't take it to the next level, neither will you. For Alex, he's been so used to figuring things out for his team that it'll take a real change in approach for them to start figuring it out on their own. But he enabled the dynamic, so he has to take ownership and responsibility in helping them get there and build a team culture where being a proactive problem solver is the norm.

52:46By leveling up his own leadership, he'll role model to his team how they can do the same.

52:59That's it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time. As a senior leader, I become disillusioned with an organization when I see the executive leaders not demonstrating the values of an organization, not living the values, not applying the values. Want more of Coaching Real Leaders? Join our community where I host live discussions to unpack the coaching sessions. Become a member at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. You can also find me and my newsletter on LinkedIn at Muriel Wilkins. Thanks to my producer, Mary Du, sound editor, Nick Kringko, music composer, Brian Campbell, my assistant, Emily Sofa, and the entire team at HBR.

53:45Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners, who share in their journeys. If you're dealing with a leadership challenge, I'd love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show next season. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. And of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward. Share it with your friends, subscribe, and leave a review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. From HBR Presents, I'm Muriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.

54:24Thank you.