How to Reinvent Yourself and Your Career Beyond the Covid-19 Crisis

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1:06Hi, everyone. Welcome to HBR Quarantined. I'm Adi Ignatius, Editor-in-Chief of Harvard Business Review, and I'm here with my friend and colleague, Josh Macht, who heads product and innovation at Harvard Business Publishing. HBR Quarantined, this is our fourth episode. We decided to set it up to connect with the millions of our fans and followers who are working from home and who are We're trying to figure out how long is that going to last? What is the world going to look like as we start to emerge from lockdown? We're really pleased with the response that we've had to the show. We know a lot of people RSVP'd for this.

1:44That sounds very fancy. I have to say we don't have canapes or anything that is sort of due to you. But thank you for RSVPing. Thank you for being here. Our guest today, who I will introduce formally in a second, is Bozema St. John, who is the CMO of Endeavor and who is an expert on how to kind of build and rebuild and reinvent your personality, your brand, whether as an individual or as a company. And I think it's an important thing for right now. But before we introduce her, I just want to talk a little bit about this phenomenon. I mean, more and more companies that have been closed are talking about opening up.

2:21The conversations I have with colleagues continue to go along the lines of people saying they're dying to get back in the office. And when I say, yeah, but you may be wearing a mask in the office, people are saying, I'm dying not to get back in the office. So it's complicated. I don't know, Josh, what are you, what are you thinking these days? I don't, I don't know. You know, it's, it's interesting. I think we're all having some fatigue here for sure. There's no question. I'm having on we, I think. On we, right. I'm not sure exactly what that means, but you'll tell me later. You're always, you're good with that.

2:54But I just feel like doing simple things, like I went to get a piece of pizza, a slice of pizza at a place and, you know, felt pretty good about it. But also at the same time, a little uncomfortable, there were people congregating, I didn't want to be anywhere near that. And you just start to realize as we get out, like, you've got this impulse of I want to get back out. But at the same time, you want to be safe, you want to be vigilant, you don't want to let your guard down. It's really weird. It's like a weird feeling, don't you think? I do. I mean, I'm wondering more and more, what is the purpose of an office?

3:27I mean, I used to think the purpose of an office was it was a place that you could leave to get home. Now I'm starting to think it's actually a place that you want to leave home for. I mean, I do miss the kind of, you know, the casual interaction, the sort of nurturing, you know, you didn't really think about it. I miss the commute. I think I said that last week. those transition moments that tell you it's not just Groundhog Day, that we are, that we're going from one reality to another. They're helpful, helpful moments. No, I know. I mean, the New York Times has a piece that, you know, we all make fun of the office, but yet there's a camaraderie and there's something that comes with it.

4:05I miss those moments right after the meeting. And I know that like from Veep, they have that, those funny segments of like, did I miss the meeting about the meeting and all those jokes, but there are like little moments, right? Where you huddle, where you meet with people, you walk down the hall, you make sense of things. And in this new reality, it's just like a thud. You stop the meeting. You're kind of by yourself, like, okay, you know, click on the next meeting. And there, therein is the fatigue, therein is the monotony. And again, like, what are you willing to risk to get back to the office?

4:40Yeah. Well, I think more and more people are willing to risk. There's an understanding that we can't be risk-free. Look, I mean, there was a, I don't know if you saw it, the stock market shot up this morning because a Boston company, Moderna, said it had positive early, you know, it's phase one, small number. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes.

5:13Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome.

5:47Check responses set up required, compatibility and availability varies 18 plus. ...people, but pretty good early results in a vaccine trial. Adds up to nothing necessarily, but we'll get there eventually, but there's going to be a long time before then where we're going to have to accept risk as part of our lives. Yeah, absolutely. Those things are little doses of hope. Sorry if you hear lawnmowers in the background here. No, that's the reality nowadays. Okay, so before I reintroduce Bosma, I want to just say a quick note, how you can support HBR on the show. If you like the show, if you like the coverage that we've been doing on COVID-19 and its fallout, be sure to check out hbr.org for more content and consider subscribing.

6:36you could find all the details there. This, of course, would be a great opportunity for a sponsor to put in a message. So Josh, I don't know if you have a fake sponsor message. Oh, that was our slot for an advertiser. So we just talked about ourselves. Go to HBR.org, subscribe. But if you want, you can advertise and then we wouldn't have to do this right now. You could be in this spot. All right, so before we go to Bozema St. John's, who's, as I said, is an expert on sort of reinvention and we, our TikTok team created a video that we think coincidentally is sort of relevant to the theme. So engineer Dave, if you can roll that TikTok.

7:33just no questions it's TikTok um it's my pleasure now to introduce the amazing Bozema St. John. As I said, she's CMO of Endeavor and an expert on how to build and reinvent your brand and your purpose. She was formerly chief brand officer at Uber. She was head of global consumer marketing at Apple Music and iTunes, head of music and entertainment at PepsiCo. She has an amazing Instagram feed, and you're seeing some of that in the background. BuzzFeed once called her the coolest person to ever go on stage at an Apple event, which is a low bar, but still, Bozema, we're really glad to have you here.

8:10Thank you so much, Adi and Josh. That's hysterical. It is quite a low bar, but you know what? I wear that mantle proudly. I would put it on my bio, but it didn't fit. So, you know, I'll consider how to shorten it later. We're happy to be your show. And but so, you know, I want to ask you, where are you now and how we've been working from home for 10 weeks? You know, what is your life been like these 10 weeks, last 10 weeks working from home? Yeah. I mean, you know, I read a quote recently that, you know, just hit home for me. It was about the fact that, you know, we are not all in the same boat, but we are all in the same storm.

8:53Right. So while I may have different circumstances, or while we might all have different circumstances, we're all sort of facing the same challenges, same issues, same anxiety, same fear, you know, all those things. So yeah, where I am, physically, I'm in LA, in my home, where I am quarantined with my daughter, who is almost 11 in two weeks, and my mother. And it is the first time I have lived with my mother since I was 18 years old. And to have the three generations here in the same house, whew, it's been quite a learning. And emotionally where I am, and I guess psychologically has changed a bit over 10 weeks.

9:39You know, it vacillates between feeling very motivated and feeling like, you know, this is the time to do anything and everything to feelings of despair, you know, feeling like, gosh, well. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast.

10:17Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required, compatibility and availability varies 18+. Things will never be the same again.

10:50What in the hell am I doing right now? And what's the point? And everything else in between. So yeah, quite a philosophical, where are you? How do you deal with the sinking moments? I mean, that's what I find is little, like, what do you, because you're really quite an inspiration and I follow you on Instagram and everything. And I wonder, like, how do you pick yourself up? Yeah. Well, you know, Josh, this is the thing is that And because none of us have ever dealt with this before, I am also learning how to motivate myself and that some of my old tricks don't work. You know, I used to have a pretty dynamic schedule, you know, meaning that I was on the move constantly, you know, so there was no time to sort of wallow and wonder, well, how am I going to get X, Y and Z thing done?

11:40You know, they say it's like if you want something done, give it to the busiest person. Right. And that's what my life was. It was just a constant movement. And so therefore, you know, if I needed to get something done, I would just figure out how to get it done in the schedule. And I wouldn't even worry about it. It would just be get it done. And these days, because it feels like time is infinite, you know, it feels like, oh, I have so many hours that I find it difficult to get even some of the small things done. You know, the projects that maybe you had at the house that you wanted to get done.

12:10And you're like, oh, now I'm going to build that bookcase. But guess what? The pieces are still sitting over there. You know, I still haven't touched it. And so I'm finding that I've had to redo my schedule. And to me, that is actually what gives me motivation. You know, the times to actually get things done. And if I can live by that, I find that I'm more productive. So it means that I'm waking up at a particular time of the day. I am working out. I am then going into my meetings. I have my time to eat. I have my time to get up and move around. I have a time to sit back down to the meeting. I have a time to have lunch.

12:46You know, I have my times set. That way it is much easier for me to stay sort of moving and going versus just endless hours that seem to run into each other. So before I ask the discussion, I want to encourage all our viewers, please ask your own questions. If Bosma, put them into the comment box and we'll try to get to some of those later. Bozma, you, the phrase that's always associated with your name, I think it's the moniker you pick yourself, is badass. Bozma, badass. I've been talking about a show called Bozma being badass. I want to be badass. Give me some advice on how to be badass like Bozma.

13:25You are, man, you are. No, that's very kind. I want to be more badass. In a weird way, but okay, let's move on the expert. I think of a badass environment right now. I mean, what I can see, I'd like the badass design that you've got going on in your environment. So I'm thinking you're awesome. This is 18th century badass. I mean, pretty dope. Pretty, pretty dope. You know what's so funny is that when I picked badass, yes, self-described, I didn't do it because I thought that it would turn into something that would sort of follow me around. It was kind of like just a good time. I just felt like everything that I was doing was on a level that I, you know, felt that I felt like a superhero, you know, and superheroes to me are badasses.

14:15They're the ones who aren't afraid to go into, you know, meet the bad guy, you know, or run into the burning building or save the planet. And sometimes it felt like that's what I was doing. And I definitely had the vision in my mind that it looked like, you know, the comic book strip, you know, where it says badass written, you know, with like the lightning bolt. And that's what it feels like to me. So, you know, you can be badass and just being exactly who you are. I think that's actually the funniest thing is that, you know, we think that it means taking on the mantle. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs.

14:54It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks.

15:33Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required, compatibility and availability varies 18+. Something much bigger, but I used to say, I used to have in my social media bios that there's nothing more badass than being yourself. And it is probably the hardest thing to do. And perhaps sometimes the most frightening thing is being 100%. Let me just follow up quickly on that, because I sort of sum up your philosophy, what I can glean from your social media presence, is sort of do your own thing. You know, it'd be true to yourself.

16:10And at a certain level, that seems tougher now when to cope with a pandemic, we're thinking more about the general good, about, you know, tamping down our own selfish desires, I guess. So I guess, how do you reconcile the ego versus collective pull at the moment? Wow. That is a really, really tough question. Because I really do believe in the power of one. It's a badass question. That it is. It is a badass question. Because I believe so firmly and so wholly in the power of one. You know, it is part of the reason why, you know, I say bring your whole self. You know, I don't say bring the whole community.

16:54You know, it's bring your whole self. Because we have such a problem, I think a real problem in our collective society with bringing ourselves, with actually, you know, living our truest self. And until we do that, we actually can't influence and do anything about the greater good. You know, we can't serve the greater good. In fact, this, at this particular time is the, it's the most important time to make sure that we are focused on self. You know, maybe that's contrary to popular belief, but, you know, if you are not well, if you aren't at your best, you know, if you're not coping with the things that are causing you either anxiety or depression or any of the other ills, then how can you be good for your family or good for your community?

17:43You know, you can't. It's almost impossible. And so right now, while it might feel selfish, you know, it's actually really important that we sit and work on what is in here before we consider doing something for the greater good. But of course, all of us want to be the hero, right? Champion for the society and, you know, do something great for those who are serving or any of the other things, which, by the way, all wonderful things. But I implore you not to do it, not to do any of those things unless you feel whole within yourself, because otherwise we'll have a disaster on our hands with a lot of halfway well people who are trying to do something good and then end up actually crashing the entire society.

18:28No, that's a really good point. I mean, and it also gets at the notion of bringing your authentic self to work and bringing, and I like what you're saying, sort of be your whole true self, bring that out, bring that out to the world. That's a big message for you. At the same time, you're also someone who's gone through reinvention and you work with people who have. Can you help us to square the two of reinvention with being true to yourself? How do you do those two together? I mean, you know what? You're some badass interviewers. OK, let's just say that because these questions are like, pop out.

19:06It's like it's so good. Wow. You're a badass flatterer. which totally works it works on me all right good good good let's keep going um you know that's a it's such a um gosh that's such a deep question about how to uh square up the true and authentic self with reinvention uh but really the connective tissue between the two is about evolution, you know, and allowing of evolution. We should evolve. You know, we should get. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more.

19:56Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks.

20:30Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required compatibility and availability varies 18 plus. Better. We should change. I think that's actually one of, I was looking through my, I was supposed to be going to my 25th high school reunion this year. And I was looking through my high school yearbook and, you know, people write, you know, the messages like never change and all that, which is ridiculous because we should always be in a state of change, you know? And so the idea of bringing your full self or your whole authentic self is even within that evolution, you know?

21:10And so not pretending to be somewhere where you aren't or be someone who you aren't, you know, if you've not evolved into that higher being that you aspire to, it is okay. We're all on the journey, you know, but it's okay then to reach a certain marker and be that person and then evolve some more and be that next person. You know, just always being conscious of presenting whatever state it is that you're in fully and wholly and not pretending. I think that's just it. It's the lack of pretense to me that I am trying to shake off that mask that we put on, you know, whether it's in the office or with a friend or at church or at your daughter's school or wherever else.

21:51It's like we wear this mask all the time. to present something that is actually not true when if we didn't do that we'd actually find more empathy in the world you know we'd able we'd be able to connect better with each other because we would realize that well sometimes we are all truly more the same than we are different although that sounds so corny uh but also i think that we would find that we have so many shared experiences and it's something i learned when i was like 12 you know to to not uh put that mask on and to be able to share what I am and who I am quite freely without apology. And it worked then.

22:33So why in the hell would I change it now? So far, so good. All right, I'm going to go to a question from one of our viewers. So this is Tahir from Dubai. And this is really a question relevant to this moment, which is how do you build your brand while we're all being held back during this crisis? How do you get the message out? How do you build a brand in this kind of clutter of pandemic? You know, that's also a really good question because right now, like I said at the beginning, is a great time to go inward. You know, that re-evaluating who you are, what you stand for, what your values are, what you want in the future, what you want right now.

23:16You know, what is the journey that you want to be on is so important. I find that many people miss that step. You know, they go directly to how do I create a brand and forget that if you don't know what the brand is, there's no way to actually communicate it. You know, so really understanding who you are and what you stand for that is unique and different from everybody else. And that requires, like I said, the true identity, you know, really going in and understanding who it is that you are. And by the way, have you been presenting someone different in the world? You know, have you been presenting a masked version of yourself?

23:56Well, I guess these days masks are in vogue, but, you know, are you presenting someone or something that is not true? And if that is the case, spend the time now, you know, going in and making sure that you actually understand who you are, that, you know, you can't be all things to all people. So who is it? What purpose do you serve? What are your likes and dislikes? What are your value systems? And it can't be the hoity-toity thing. It can't be that. Disregard that thing. Yes, you want to save the world. Okay, that's fantastic. We all do. But that's too broad. We need to get down to the smaller things.

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25:42You know, behavior is not because you went to a certain event or you spoke at a conference. You know, behavior is in the conversations you have with your family and friends. Behavior is how you present yourself on Instagram or LinkedIn or Facebook. You know, behavior is in the acts that you take on and perhaps the plan that you create for when you can move in the world. You know, so to me, the brand building are the deep questions that I ask of not just, you know, inanimate brands, but of people brands too. So I, you know, first it's like, who are you? Really? Who are you? What do you stand for?