Jim Fielding, Ex-Head of Disney Stores, on the Hurdles of Progressing as a Queer Executive

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1:09Jim Fielding:Welcome to Harvard Business Reviews, the new world of work. I'm Adi Ignatius, Editor-in-Chief of HBR, and each week on the show, I interview a CEO or a thought leader or somebody else who can inspire and educate us on the changing dynamics of the workplace. Our viewers come from all over the world, and they work at everything from Fortune 500 companies to fledgling startups from family businesses to nonprofits. The aim of the show is to provide insights for everyone as they navigate this transitional moment in how we organize ourselves in the business world. So on today's episode, we have another great guest, Jim Fielding, a longtime entertainment industry executive and author of the new book, All Pride, No Ego, A Queer Executive's Journey to Living and Leading Authentically.

1:52Jim Fielding:So I'll come back in just a second with a proper introduction, but first let's hear from our good friends at KPMG, who are our sponsors for this season of The New World of Work. At KPMG, it's our people who make the difference for our clients. Talented teams leveraging the right technology to uncover insights that illuminate opportunity. Ready to make the difference together?

2:20Jim Fielding:Okay, if you're an HPR subscriber and you're watching this, you can head to hbr.org slash newsletters to sign up for the new world of work newsletter, where I offer an inside look each week at these interviews and talk about some of the most interesting takeaways. And if you like content like this, please consider subscribing to our magazine and website. The address is hbr.org slash subscriptions. And if you like hearing smart people talk about some of the same issues we discuss on this show, be sure to check out our flagship podcast, IdeaCast, which is available wherever you get your podcast.

2:50Jim Fielding:And remember, You can watch previous episodes of this show on YouTube or right here on LinkedIn and Facebook. So my guest today is Jim Fielding, a guy who's done a lot of things. He's held several senior jobs in the entertainment business. He was president of consumer products and innovation at 20th Century Fox. He was global head for consumer products and retail development at DreamWorks Animation. He was CEO of the Claire's Stores chain, and he was president of Disney Store Worldwide. He currently serves as president of the media production company Archer Gray's CoLab division, which focuses on part on building businesses via venture investments.

3:27Jim Fielding:And last but not least, he's the author of the new book, All Pride, No Ego, A Queer Executive's Journey to Living and Leading Authentically. Jim, welcome. Thank you so much for having me. Incredible honor. Good. Well, I hope I didn't take up all the time by listing your many achievements, but I'm really I'm glad you're here. So let's just jump right in. And your book is, as you put it, a queer executive's journey. So let's talk about that journey in some ways. But I want to ask you about some numbers. So Fortune Magazine recently calculated that there are four openly gay CEOs in the Fortune 500.

4:02Jim Fielding:That's up from zero in 2014 when Tim Cook came out or was outed, however you think that. But when you hear that number, what do you think? How do you process that? not surprising, frustrating, and I think partially, you know, part of the message of the book. I think if you just use the law of averages and you say, okay, 10 % of the country is queer, LGBTQ, that percentage doesn't make sense. But I also think, you know, Adi, if you talked about the other, you know, women, people of color, minorities, the other minorities are marginalized communities, the numbers would be low as well. And so I, I also, it makes me kind of sad because I think that's means there's wasted talent because I know in my community, how many bright, creative, innovative, talented people there are.

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5:56Jim Fielding:So your answer, so you're not saying that, oh, there must be many more who are in the closet who aren't comfortable coming out. That could be. I mean, I, you know, I can't speak for, you know, the other 496, I guess, if there's four in their survey. I think it varies by industry. I think it varies by, you know, everybody's individual story. And I'm certainly not here to force people to share their stories or to out people, to your point. So I it may be higher. but if the person's not comfortable identifying that way or sharing their story then we have to respect that yeah sure um so to the audience if you have questions for jim you know put them into the chat we'll try to get to audience questions later in the show um so let me ask in your book uh which is which is nice it's very readable and um you know make some some interesting points and and you know i recommend it so you say in the book that that there could be an impenetrable glass ceiling for queer executives in your industry, which by the way is entertainment.

7:01Jim Fielding:And I'm guessing is more queer friendly than a lot of other industries. Yes. So, so how have you sensed this glass ceiling? You know, I think it's, it's really, I mean, where you feel it, it's almost like an innate sense, you know, it's like an internal feeling of not belonging to the right club where it, you can pick up, you can send something in a group meeting, or you can send something in the feedback you might receive from your leader or supervisor or in your performance review, if you're still at the point where you're getting regular performance reviews. And it's, you know, it's about sharing stories and sharing commonalities.

7:41And in many cases, as a queer executive, when you walk into a room of eight or 10 people, you might be the only self-identifying out gay executive. And so your story by nature is different. And I don't have kids. Many, many queer executives do have kids. So I, you know, I can't talk about what schools my kids are applying to or universities are going to, or it's like, it's just, there's not that, that common language, those common topics that make you fit easily into the conversation. And, you know, you could call it the old boys network. You could call it the men's club. It still feels that way in many situations, including in my industry and from other people I've talked to in other industries.

8:23And I think diversity in the C-suite, diversity in the CEO suite overall, not just queer diversity, but I think diversity overall has been a hot topic and will continue to be a hot topic because the C-suites, particularly in America, Fortune 500, Fortune 1000, does not really reflect the community at large, the constituency of America anymore.

8:47Jim Fielding:But I want to ask you to what extent maybe that's changed, certainly since you first joined the executive forces. I mean, you talk in the book about feeling insecure as you've taken new jobs and whether you could be your authentic self. Do you think it would be different today? Do you think things have changed significantly enough that you wouldn't have the same trepidation? Yeah, I mean, I think it's situational, Adi. I think it depends, again, on the industry, on the geography. I think, you know, I lived in 20 for 25 years in California. I think there's certain states and legislatures that are more queer friendly.

9:26Right now, if I was living in Texas or Florida, I'm not sure I would feel as comfortable. I am reading stories every day of teachers and education professionals who are feeling they can't live their authentic selves in certain states or certain school districts in the United States. So I don't think, is it easier than it was when I first came out in the 80s? Yes, I think there's been a ton of progress. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks.

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10:46Learn more at schwab.com slash trading. We obviously have more protections than we had when I first came out. But I still think it's very situational. And in that case, everybody, you know, you have to take into consideration the person's individual story, their industry, their tenure with the company, their tenure with the school district before you can really say it's easier. Because I think, honestly, in the last year, it's gotten harder for some people.

11:15Jim Fielding:Yeah, interesting. So we do have some comments coming in. A lot of them are, Jim is awesome. I used to work with him. So that's good. Again, if you have questions for Jim and some of those are starting to come in as well, put them in the in the chat. Yeah. So you mentioned that it varies according to to state or industry. And, you know, I think about, you know, certain industries where no one dares come out. And that's I think of pro sports where it's close to zero, which which, you know, the pressure to remain in the closet in certain places in certain industries. And, you know, can you talk a little bit about just the pressure to remain in the closet, which which, you know, you know, must be brutal if you're if you're trying to be, as you say, your authentic self and you feel like society is saying, you know, stay in there.

12:07I live. Yeah, I lived it. I mean, I wrote about it in the book. I mean, I was in my 20s. I was in my first job. It was in the fashion industry. I was doing extremely well and I was living a double life. I was in a relationship that I wasn't sharing outside of a very tight circle of people, changing pronouns, changing stories. And that inauthenticity created emotional, physical and mental problems. I was having migraines. I was having stomach problems. I was way too young to be feeling that amount of stress and, you know, getting help from a therapist, talking to my really close friends that I could share my story with.

12:45And, you know, in my case, again, this is the 80s. It was a very different time. I felt like I had to leave that company and search for another role with a company that was going to allow me to fully embrace myself. And that's when I made the move to The Gap and spent nine incredible years at The Gap. And a huge reason I took that job was because during the entire interview process, every person I met with, I presented authentically as myself. And if they asked about my family situation, or they asked about things I did on the weekend, or what interests me, I didn't switch to a more heterosexual sounding answer.

13:23I just answered as myself. And that was a huge reason why I made that switch in my career. And I know not everybody can do that. I know not every queer individual has the opportunity to move geographies or move companies or move roles. But for me, I never felt better. And I honestly think my success started really for me almost when I was 26 and came out because I feel that I was a better executive, a better person, a better leader, a better friend, just better to be around. because I wasn't, didn't have that level of worry, didn't have that level of stress anymore.

14:02Jim Fielding:I have to ask, what is a heterosexual sounding answer? Does it come with a special answer? Yeah, I mean, it's like, yeah, exactly. Like you, you, you change your voice. I have to pick up the wife and the golden retriever. And we're going to our son's little league game. No, it's, yeah, it's funny because I, I'm a queer man that absolutely loves sports. So I can do the sports thing because I love college and professional sports. But I think it was just, you know, I couldn't really say, you know, my partner and I went and saw a musical this weekend. Right. Like that at that time didn't feel like the right answer in many of those situations.

14:40Jim Fielding:Yeah, you're I got it. So so you're I mean, I hope your story is inspiring to people who are wrestling with this. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think, you know, a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required, compatibility and availability varies 18+.

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15:44Jim Fielding:You know, there must be people who are watching this or who would read your book or like, OK, I hear that. But, you know, good for you that where you've come out in your journey. I just don't dare. You know, I'm in this state or this industry or I just it's too scary. You know, what's your advice to people who are feeling that? Yeah. And again, I am not cavalier about this at all. I feel for those people. And I am not saying read my book and follow the 10 leadership lessons and, you know, your life will be milk and honey. I've talked to several people, even lately on this journey, who absolutely just do not feel comfortable and feel that they would hurt their economic security, their financial security, or their personal security to come out at work.

16:28And they don't have the ability to change. So what I've said to them is, I hear that. I respect that. I feel sorry for you. But then what I ask you to do is when you are at home and when you are in a safe space, is home safe to you? Are the things you're doing outside of work feeding your soul and allowing you to be who you authentically are? Can you volunteer with local queer organizations? Do you get to express your queerness in other ways outside of work? If you have to be that closeted and that concerned at work, then I really hope in your personal life you can expand, you know, nights and weekends.

17:05None of us, even though it feels like we're working full time, we do have our own personal time and we do have choices that we can make. And so I, of course, I ask when somebody comes to me for advice, I ask, do you have the ability to change companies? Do you have the ability to move? Would that work for you? And if not, then I really encourage them to stretch their individuality and their authenticity outside of work.

17:30Jim Fielding:So I want to jump to an audience question that's apropos of where we are in the conversation. And this is from Angela in Colorado in the U.S. And Angela says, I have a queer child. What recommendations would you have to help a young person prepare best for the current working world and to prepare for leadership? Oh, that's amazing. Well, first off, the fact that your child has a mother that's willing to identify that and you're having that conversation is a huge step in the right direction. And I think it's having those conversations and building their confidence and building their awareness and building their network around them of friends and family so that when they do get challenged, and they will get challenged at times, they can proudly sit in their authenticity and share their story.

18:18And if it feels in an interview process or a job search process that they're going to ask to change, my feeling is if you've given them that foundation, they most likely are going to identify that quickly and realize that that position or that role or that company is not for them. And so, you know, the best thing that parents can do is be supportive and love them unconditionally and help them build their network around them. And even if they're doing internships, if they're in college, or even their part-time jobs, all of that should be in safe, productive, respectful environments. Because that's building their foundation for entering the work world.

19:03And that goes for any child, by the way, not just queer children. I think that goes for any. The work world is hard. It's very different than school. It's very different than being at home. And so I think if you have confidence and a strong foundation, that carries you a long way.

19:18Jim Fielding:So your childhood, I mean, you know, even though we know we know that, you know, you you you made it through and you're well adjusted and you had a great career and you've written a book, you know, reading the passages about about you being bullied constantly in school. It was it was painful to read, you know, so further on maybe the advice. I mean, how did you how did you persevere? I mean, it just sounds like it was brutal. It was.

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20:46Again, I had those, and I talk about in the book, I had those friends who I did reach out to. It's such a different time though, Adi. I was struggling with that in the 70s and 80s, right? I don't think schools, administrators, teachers, counselors, mental health world was remotely equipped to deal with my situation. And I do think there's a lot of available resources now for children who are questioning their sexuality. It's not always easy, but there's more available resources now. I had two amazing teachers and three friends who, even though I couldn't even say it out loud to myself because I was still struggling with it internally, they gave me safe environments to just relax it.

21:32Because it was pretty much a daily, the bullying, the physical, emotional, verbal taunting was pretty much daily. But I had a couple amazing hours in the day, including one independent study hour where it was me and one other student with a teacher. That was my refuge from all of that. And I just kept focused on I knew that there was life for me outside of Toledo, Ohio. And I had some amazing older friends, including a woman I talk about in the book, Amanda Miller, who I watched them get out and go away to school. And that became my drive. And I said, I have to get good grades. I have to study hard.

22:12I have to learn. I have to participate in clubs because I need to get scholarships and I need to go away from here because this place is not allowing me to really explore and identify who I am completely.

22:27Jim Fielding:So, I mean, that touches on the power of an ally, the power of somebody who connects with you for who you are and how that can be life changing. There's another question. This is from Mark from Chicago in the U.S. And it builds on that. What are some tips for exercising allyship to the LGBTQ plus community? Yeah, I mean, I think the LGBTQ community, I mean, we walk hand in hand with our allies. And I think the entire gay rights movement, allies were a huge part of that process and continue to be. And I feel that it's for the queer individual, for the LGBTQ individual, I talk about this term inviting people in rather than coming out, inviting people into your story.

23:18It's a vulnerability exercise and a trust exercise when you identify someone who you think is going to be able to handle your story and handle your confidentiality and be honest with you and be your friend. And it's really on us as the queer individual to invite that other person into our story and then be willing to say to them, this is how you can help me. And be willing to ask for help. I think there's a huge thing about what I wrote about in the book. I went too long not asking for help. I literally, there were people who were there that I could have asked for help. But it was on me to say, hey, I've got something to tell you.

23:57And I really need to share and trust that it was going to be OK. So I write, there's an entire chapter, learning number four in the book is about nurture all of your families, including your chosen family. And I realized that I started building my chosen family when I was 14 and 15 years old in high school. And I didn't know what it was called. I didn't know I was building an ally network. there was no book to read. There was no guidebook to follow, but I realized that I was finding my confidence, confidants, and my confidence through my confidants. And I was charting these lifelong relationships that I'm still friends with people that I went.

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