Jimmy Fallon and Bozoma Saint John on Developing Brands People Love

0:00Hey Chicago, class it up with Crocs. You know back to school is coming in fast. So why wait to find your new fave footwear? Step into a local Crocs store and step into your new look. Try it. Style it. Make it yours. Because the right pair doesn't just show up, it shows off. First day fits, handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest Crocs store today. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes.

0:47Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs.

1:07The entertainment, media, and marketing industries have changed dramatically since both of you started your careers. You know, there was cable and then internet and then streaming and then social. So what would you say is really the secret to capturing attention now, you know, whether it's an individual or a show or a corporate brand? Sure. I mean, God, you made it sound like we started the Stone Ages, girl. I mean, that's when I started. I'm like, speak for yourself. No, but you're right. Look, the landscape has changed dramatically in the last 20 years. The way that consumers listen to entertainment or watch entertainment has changed.

1:48that I find that, you know, being on top of just what people are trying, like how they are communicating with each other is the only way in which to mimic so that you can be part of the conversation. And that's like, you know, whether you're a brand or an individual, a show like ours, I mean, obviously Jimmy is on TV every day. And so he has the pressure of being able to, you know, evolve so that he can continue to keep the audience that he has. So I guess my perspective is just from a brand lens, you know, which is that in order to stay relevant, you really do have to pay attention to the time.

2:25What worked 20 years ago certainly won't work today. I think it changes day by day by day by day. You never really can. And there's probably like a couple, there's like a couple of weeks where you're like, hey, this is where everyone's going. And then it changes like, nope, they invented a new thing called flip flop. Everyone's on flip flop you go what i haven't even heard of that and they go oh you got to sign up you're late to the game uh but it's always changing and i'm always interested in seeing what the next moves are you know uh especially social media when we first started late night i remember um one of our producers gavin purcell uh who's fantastic uh he was like you got to get on twitter and i was like what is that he's like well it's this thing and he's explaining twitter to me you know i go okay and then I'm like and we'll put our shows on Twitter yeah we can do like streaming shows like just before we even start up late night just to gather get a following going and I remember getting like maybe a hundred followers and I was jumping up and down I was that into it because I was like I could see the metrics and the data I love metrics I love data I love to see how things go up or down or sideways or what type of people are listening or retweeting or I love all that type of stuff so we just jumped on and tried everything when it comes out and see if it works for you and you kind of have to learn it and adapt to it and i think number one is still youtube you know as far as grow you know growth and how much engagement with everybody it's just the biggest thing and i don't know if there's anything close yeah when you have though all these channels um and you know varying in popularity but all the smart, you know, people and shows and brands are on them or trying all of them.

4:05How do you sort of craft either a persona or a campaign that can break through all of that noise? I think some of it has to be consistency, you know, just back to the last question. I also want to give props to Jimmy himself as a person, because he really does throw himself into the creative and into the work, you know? So yeah, social media is a powerful tool, but without him actually being in it and, you know, doing the trend every day, it's not just like, oh, there's this tool and this platform out there and, you know, try to engage on it. Jimmy is putting himself in the work. And I think that's actually necessary, whether it's a show or a brand, that the consistency is how you show up.

4:50If every day you're trying to be something different on the platform, nobody's going to trust you. You know, people don't like that. Thanks for saying that. Hey, Chicago. Class it up with Crocs. You know back to school is coming in fast. So why wait to find your new fave footwear? Step into a local Crocs store and step into your new look. Try it. Style it. Make it yours. Because the right pair doesn't just show up. It shows off. First Day Fits handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest Croc store today. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs.

5:35It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. I think that's also how you find your brand. Yeah. By trying everything on. You go, hey, do I wear bangs? Do I have a bob? Do I have a short hair? You have to try it to see if that's your style.

6:14And you go, hey, I think I found my style, everybody. I think for me growing up, I was a very fad type of person. I was really into fads and trying new things. And I was wearing, you know, zipper pants. This is in the 80s. Jams. Jams. Jams. The best. I love my jams. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I had all that stuff. And I go, is this my move? Is this going to? Yes. I thought I found it. But it was those, that generation, I feel like they were just fads. They were things that were in for like two years and then out. Even the music in the 80s. It's like more one-hit wonders, I think, than any decade. But that was because everyone's trying new things and seeing what's happened.

6:53So I think my brain growing up in that generation of having one-offs and one-hit wonders and things constantly changing and what am I into probably influenced who I am today and how I can function with changing things. And are you good with change? A lot of people aren't good with change. And it freaks people out. They go, I can't have a new office. I'm used to my old office. They go, same office. It's what are you doing in there? It's the same deal. it's like different platform same yeah yeah yeah I think so but like Bozeman was saying you you you try you you have to try and you got to get up to bat and swing you know and sometimes you hit a home run sometimes you strike out but at least you're trying both of you have very strong personal brands and I think a lot of that comes from authenticity but how did you think about that as sort of you built your careers, you know, Bozma for you in marketing with big jobs that, you know, Pepsi and Uber and Apple and Netflix and Jimmy for you with moving from, you know, comedy to stand up to SNL to films and then late night.

8:03Yeah. A personal brand is such an interesting thing because, um, you know, many people will say that like, oh, that's like a waste of time, especially if you're in corporate settings, you know? But really, it's just new language for what a reputation is, you know? And for me, it's like, look, when I started out in this business, of course, I was trying to mimic the successful people ahead of me, you know? It's like I looked at the corner offices and said, okay, what are they wearing? How do they talk in meetings? What are the ideas they bring? Like, how do they do the thing they do? And why do people listen to them?

8:35And I just tried to mimic it. Unfortunately, that did not work, you know? And It didn't work for all the reasons that now as more mature adults, we know is because it just didn't fit, you know, and you can't be authentic. And I know it's an overused word, but like we were saying before, even as Jimmy explained about, you know, trying things on and seeing what fits for me, it was like this unraveling of who I was trying to be versus who I am, you know, and my personal brand became what it is and is because it's actually just me. You know, it's like I do wear interesting clothes and I do gesture a lot with my hands and I cry because I get emotional and my hair is always something different, you know, because all of those things allow me the freedom to be exactly who I am in every room.

9:29And it has made me a better executive. It has made me a better mother. It's made me a better friend. It's made me a better contributor to society and a better creative for all those reasons. And so I think the personal brand gets a little confused sometimes because people are trying to strategize around it. And I'm like, no, if you just become more of yourself, then that actually will sustain over time. Is it because is it because people can trust you? Because. Yeah, right. Yeah. Because you're like, you never come out of character. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. You don't have to. Yeah. That's why.

9:57Yeah. I forget who said. But someone said. Yeah. Hey, Chicago. Class it up with Crocs. You know, back to school is coming in fast. So why wait to find your new fave footwear? Step into a local Crocs store and step into your new look. Try it. Style it. Make it yours. Because the right pair doesn't just show up. It shows off. First day fits handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest Crocs store today. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications and more.

10:41Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. God, I always tell the truth because it's too much work to lie. Yes, it's too much work. It's too much work. Yeah. It's just too hard. What about you, Jimmy? I think when I first started out, I was just hungry and I was focused on, you know, getting on Saturday Night Live. That was my goal. So I did stand up and I did impressions of celebrities because I knew that Saturday Night Live used those people on the show to do like characters and impressions.

11:27So that was my, that was going to be my way into Saturday Night Live. So I would do, in my standup, I would do impressions of like John Travolta. You know, I'd be like, she's like, sweet God, I can't believe this over here. Like, Sandy, what's going on? Right. I don't know why Saturday Night Live would need a John Travolta impersonator, but that was part of my act. But that led to other characters, which led to me doing Adam Sandler, where it's like, and you do all that type of stuff. And then you go, oh, that's stuff we can maybe use. And I just think that was my ultimate goal, just getting into Saturday Night Live.

12:02And let's just check that off. That's like the bucket list per se or whatever you call it. But that was my goal. And I got that at 23. And then once you get it, you go, okay, now what do I do with this? Because I didn't plan ahead. I didn't have three other goals. That was it for me. I'm like, uh-oh, I got to figure out what my next goal is. So the next parts were kind of interesting because you're like, now you're here. What is your next goal? Do you want to be a movie star? Do you want to be a sitcom star? Do you want to record music? What is your thing? I had no clue. So I've kind of had to think of a new goal and kind of find it as it was going and see if it kind of fit.

12:45But I think always for me, as far as material wise, it was very family friendly. You know, I never really cursed in my actor. You know, it's kind of almost prudish. I think it was my Irish Catholic upbringing, but that's not really changed for me. So that kind of stayed on brand. But I think I kind of just grew and said, well, maybe I can do this. And then if that didn't work out, I tried movies. They didn't really work. And then you just kind of go back to like just trying stuff and seeing what sticks and, you know, getting into the talk show world. I didn't really know what I was doing either there.

13:25But, you know, I got a lot of practice and I was on at 1230 at night where no one was watching. I think a few people were watching. Yeah, maybe like prison guards. I don't know who else. And college kids. But I mean, I had to do that and kind of figure out there how to have an interview, how to talk to somebody. Am I nervous? You know, I still get nervous, you know, you know, and, and, and, but it's fun. It's because I care, I think, you know, and I, I want to do a great job, but you get another opportunity and then you grow and you see how you can do that best. And then you, then you see what other challenges are out there and see how you can.

14:00It sounds like you both, you know, very much found your distinct lanes, you know, despite the fact that you're both in crowded fields. How would each of you describe your leadership brand? Right. Cause you're both bosses, you're, you're running organizations, you're running shows, you're running teams of people. So, you know, what is your unique style or the unique thing that you bring to a collaborative team? I think Bose is better at this than I am. No, but you are an informal leader, even if you're not called the CEO of The Tonight Show or the CEO of NBC Entertainment, you know? Yeah. Yeah, but he's still my boss.

14:37I mean, I still consider him my boss, honestly. So, I mean, You're a leader of me, if nothing else. Yeah, come on. But you have that feeling when you get in the room with Bozeman St. John. You go, whoa. She's in charge. Yeah, you feel like someone smart is in the room. I'm here. It's like, oh, my gosh. Uncle Buck is here. Oh, my. Hey, Chicago. Class it up with Crocs. You know back to school is coming in fast. So why wait to find your new fave footwear? step into a local croc store and step into your new look try it style it make it yours because the right pair doesn't just show up it shows off first day fits handled walk out ready for whatever's next visit your nearest croc store today when you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work use indeed sponsor jobs it gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more.

15:41Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. I got substitute teachers here. I just say I'm always reading books. And I'd be curious to ask you also what books I should read to like for management. And I love all that stuff. And I love self help books and learning constantly about how to do it better. And even if not, remind yourself of what is what works and what doesn't work.

16:23Like being mad doesn't work. I know that. Yeah, email doesn't work. It's so interesting. I think my leadership style has changed, of course, over years and different experiences. The way that I led my Apple music team in launching the brand and the service itself was far different from the way I led when I became chief marketing officer at Netflix. One, because they were so different in terms of not just the product, but the time. I started at Netflix, we were two months into the pandemic. And I remember my first staff meeting, I mean, there's like well over a thousand marketers and I didn't see anybody's face.

17:07And I think I'm the kind of leader that does need to be in the room. I'd like to be in front of people. I want to see your face and your reaction and see if what I'm saying is inspiring. Is it funny? Are you confused by what I'm saying? I need all of that to be able A reaction. Yeah. I was just looking at this green dot, you know, and it was such a, like an impossible time of trying to inspire people to be more creative and think out of the box and like all of the things that we say at a time when nobody knew what the hell was going on. But the constant theme throughout, I think for me in leadership has always been knowing the detail, you know, of what is going on, like understanding what people are interested in on my teams, you know, because the challenges that you put all of the pressure on the results and you don't think about the people, you know, and I have had the kind of career where, you know, in order to really do the work, we had to be so close to culture, you know, that like I needed different types of people on my team, people who didn't know what I know, who know things differently.

18:21I take a lot from physics, which is like the idea of matter, that matter is made up of molecules and you change one molecule and the entire matter changes. And for me, I'm like, matter is a team, the people that I'm working with. And you change one molecule and the whole thing changes. And so So understanding the importance of every single person who is contributing, they can be the assistant or they could be the SVP of a region. Like their contributions are so important. And so making people know that so that they want to show up to their job, they want to do the best job that they can do because they know how important they are.

19:02Because I told them that has been a constant leadership tool for me. also what you just said too like also showing up i think is one thing that you learn as the more you do this is that all the great leaders show up yes you you actually whether it's a restaurant yeah you know i've seen restaurants fail all because you go hey we had a great year i don't have to go in anymore and you go yeah wait jimmy i'm gonna interrupt you i'm gonna interrupt you one second because like actually i have a story about jimmy on like his leadership um and this embarrass you so whatever like you just got to deal with it um i you know we had like over like 270 crew members i think on on brand and um i've always felt that i'm a friendly person you know i see people i say hello you know all of that stuff but i've never seen anyone do it like jimmy does meaning that like we were walking onto set hey chicago class it up with crocs you know back to school is coming in fast.

20:06So why wait to find your new Fave footwear? Step into a local croc store and step into your new look. Try it. Style it. Make it yours. Because the right pair doesn't just show up, it shows off. First day fits handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest croc store today. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work? Use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes.

20:46Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored jobs. One day and somebody was like nailing something on a wall, like bent over in the corner. And Jimmy was like, hey, bud, you're doing a great job. Look, I've never seen anybody do that in my life. You know what I mean? Like just paying attention to the small things. And I think it just the showing up is also in recognizing people's contributions. And so for Jimmy, I think leadership is not just like how he commands like a production to be done or like his contributions to like, oh, let's use this line or change this word, but also making people feel like they are part of something even bigger and that they're important.

21:37And I saw that in action. It wasn't like some theory. So you can start being embarrassed now, Jimmy. Yeah, it sounds like the sort of infectious spirit that you sort of bring to the show, you know, to public facing engaging engagements, you're also practicing behind the scenes. Did you learn that leadership style? You know, the idea of keeping it fun, of showing gratitude to even the smallest players. Did you learn that on SNL from people like Lorne Michaels? Lorne Michaels? Yeah, definitely. I think that's one of the things I learned from him is showing up and, you know, just being there for everybody.

22:13I think as the part of gratitude, one of my biggest lessons I learned from Cameron Crowe, who's a great writer director. But he directed me. I was in Almost Famous. You can cue the applause now. You're going to go straight to fever pitch, but okay. No, I'll start with my first one. I'll go into my filmography after that. This podcast is three hours, right? All right, perfect. So I remember I was on set and I saw Cameron giving notes to this extra. And he was like, okay, you had a long day. okay you got three more tables and then you get to go home you know and uh blah blah and he was just giving uh direction to this uh extra and then they did action and the extra didn't have any lines just in the background and i was like whoa he put and he didn't no one was looking at him he was just him and this extra talking and he made that person feel like a million bucks and and that whole made everybody go like we're all doing this world everybody's worth something here.

23:16This is awesome. And I'll never forget that." And it was the coolest thing that he did. So I think combo of that and Lorne Michaels and Sarrant Live and I think all the different hosts that come in on Sarrant Live too and talking to all them and just and seeing how, yeah. Some people brought that sort of positive addition to the matter that Boz was talking about and some didn't, I imagine. And caring, yeah. And just go like, oh, that was great what you did. I like that. Or, you know, when these celebrities host Saturday Night Live, they're coming to a place that they're not used to. You know, so if you have Robert De Niro, for example, he's not used to being on.

23:57He's like, like, I remember him asking me where his mark was. Jimmy where's my mark I'm like I'm not gonna tell Robert De Niro anything you can stand wherever you want dude I'm good he's like no I don't really know because I've never done this so where and I go it's right there and then you're gonna land you're gonna say the lines facing that way he's like okay cool like just like help each other we're on the team now I'm like I just totally helped I gave direction to Robert De Niro what is going on in my life it was and he loved it and he was but he and we would laugh and it was just great yeah so we all know that sort of the best creative teams come from, you know, putting people together with diverse points of view and everyone sharing their ideas and brainstorming together.

24:36But how do you all as, you know, strong personalities with good ideas, I imagine, because you've been very successful, how do you balance sort of expressing your own opinions, putting your own stamp on things with also working collaboratively and bringing in the opinions of others? That's a tough one. Yeah, that's a good one. You know, for me, I get very passionate in every job I've had, you know, passionate about how the things should land. So because I'm like, oh, I know that's going to garner results. You know, sometimes I've been wrong, but there I always have a strong point of view. But I'm thinking back to times when it's like, look, as part of a creative team, this is outside of my own leadership, which is that you do have to follow the direction of whomever is in charge.

25:27You know, it's kind of like any, like a coach or like, you know, general or something like if you don't, if everybody doesn't fall in line, you're, it's liable that you go wrong, you know? And so at some point as a creative, you can have a strong point of view. You can have a strong idea. you can think it's the best one, but if it is not the one that goes forward, you have to submit and help the next person. And so even just going back to your question about leadership, it is something I've always encouraged my teams, which is that once I've been in the seat as the CMO to decide which idea goes forward, and now everybody get behind that idea.

26:11Disagree and then commit. Oh, I think my idea is better. And oh, we should have done this, should have done that. That's we're all going to fail. And now we're all the same boat. So it's like once an idea has been chosen to go forward, everybody put your energy into making sure that that idea is what wins. How do you steer people, you know, with good, well-meaning ideas in better directions? I always find with me, I always, this is just me, but I always like to say at least my point of view on something just to say it. And then there's probably someone in the room that might be better at whatever the thing is, and I'll let them hear my idea, and hopefully it sparks something that they can land the plane.

26:51And I don't need to take credit for it, but I can hopefully spark something that made them go like, oh, yeah, we can take a piece of that, but I've done this before. For instance, Southwest, we did this episode last night that you watched, but the challenge was to wrap a plane, basically paint the side of an airplane, a giant airplane. So it's a big thing. that you know and we're going well but how do you do that well this is gonna be seen by a lot of people and then uh bozema goes well when i wrapped a plane for a beats i go you wrapped a plane who else i mean that's we're talking to someone who's done this how many people you know that wrapped a plane before i mean what are you talking about and it was just yeah i know now you do uh you know Now you know two people.

27:37But I mean, it's wild. It was like, she knows, she's done this. What hits? What do people look at? You know, what do they see? What are the things that pop? And you kind of go, that's great. We have someone that's played the game before. So Jimmy, why at this point in your career, did you feel qualified to host a show on branding and marketing? I think because of all the years of, you know, late night and tonight show, and my job is basically selling things, you know, for my guests, you know, I have them on and I pitch their movies or their music or, you know, I'm selling their wares, their products.

28:18their products. But so, and I've kind of enjoyed it when we have an integration or, you know, some brand goes, Hey, is there any way you can mention a toilet paper, you know, this week in the show? And I go, love it. Bring it on. What do you want? I can write whatever I want. Right. I go, I will think of something. And then I go, yeah. And we'll talk about, Hey, do you put the toilet paper roll over the top or do you put the toilet paper roll with the paper coming under, you know, and you have a debate and people get in fights and it's funny. And, and, you know, That's a fun challenge. I've done that for the past 15 years.

28:54That's a long time. A lot of shows. I think Tonight Show is hitting almost like it's 2 ,300th show or something crazy. Oh, my God. I kind of love the stuff. I had a weird, again, just an odd idea. I didn't like to throw them out to people. I pitched it to NBC. I typed it up on my iPad. I bothered my wife with all these questions for months. And then I go, I think this is something I could pitch. And I pitched to NBC and they said, no, but thank you so much. Keep these ideas coming, buddy, and stay strong at late night. And you go, okay. And then I was like, I didn't let it die. I was like, I really do think this is something you should give it a chance to.

29:37I think it's different. And as Bozeman was saying, one point we were talking about this and we're like, because it's a brand new type of business structure even to paying for the show and all this stuff. But also, but what Bozeman was saying, it's kind of like a new playground. It's a new toy to play with for brands. Like how much fun can we have? Yeah, the companies are sort of sponsoring each episode basically. And so the advertisement isn't necessarily what's generated by the contestants. it's the show itself. I also want to say that I know Jimmy, you know, like he's creative and he, you know, has done a lot of work with brands, but he's also a student of marketing.