Leading Amid Polarizing Times

0:01This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required, compatibility and availability varies 18+. Hey Chicago, class it up with Crocs. You know back to school is coming in fast. So why wait to find your new fave footwear?

0:35Step into a local croc store and step into your new look. Try it. Style it. Make it yours. Because the right pair doesn't just show up. It shows off. First day fits, handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest croc store today.

1:07Frances X. Frei:ADE IGNATIOUS, Editor-in-Chief of Harvard Business Review, and welcome to HBR Now. My co-hosts are Josh Mock, who heads product and innovation at HBR, and Octavia Gordima, who runs the 2010 talent agency. So HBR Now, of course, is the program where we really dive into very timely topics, whether it's COVID or leadership in a crisis or the Black Lives Matter movement or the U.S. election. So this is election day in the U.S. Rather than bring in a political pundit as our guest, we decided to, and by the way, you can get that elsewhere on a lot of other channels right now, we decided to bring in somebody who could help us with our anxiety, to help us be resilient, to help us understand how to keep an enterprise functioning and healthy in such a polarizing political atmosphere.

2:01Frances X. Frei:And that guest is Frances Fry, who will be coming in a little later. She's an HBS professor. She's a former senior vice president at Uber and co-author of an amazing new book on empathetic leadership called Unleashed. But anyway, it's election day. So Dave, roll the TikTok.

2:32I wonder. Okay, I do not remember my first time voting, but someone on this conference actually does remember. Yes, that's me. I voted for the first time this presidential election. All right. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you, Josh. Yeah, I became a US citizen last year. So this year is a special one for me.

3:00Frances X. Frei:That's crazy. So Josh, where are you in your anxiety meter today? I mean, I'm faking it, I guess. I did vote super early and there was no line for me where I voted in Massachusetts. But and now I do my best to not, you know, try not to pay attention to too much because, you know, it's just not great for me. but I just get sucked back into it at some point during the day. What about you, Adi? Well, so I remember, so Josh and I were at Time Magazine for a while, and I remember when we were at Time, the coin of the realm was access to data that other people didn't have. And that usually took the form of exit polls, and sometimes they were the campaign's own exit polls, or this kind of insidery data that if you had access to, you maybe had a head start.

3:49Frances X. Frei:I remember my father-in-law, Osborne Elliott, who was the editor of Newsweek during its glory days in the 60s and 70s. He would call when he had retired and I said, time. And he said, I am craving exit pulse. What have you got? It's different now. I mean, the data, first of all, people don't do that so much anymore. They do it, but don't rely on it and don't have a secret trove that if you had access to it, you'd know what's going on. But I do want to say one bit of data that I think is interesting for today's conversation, which is about the stress and anxiety that people are feeling. So Harris did a poll with the American Psychological Association that found that more than two thirds of American adults, 68 percent, say that the election is a significant source of stress in their lives, which is up from about 50 percent in the previous election.

4:35Frances X. Frei:and that more than three quarters, 77%, say the future of the nation is a significant source of stress up a lot from even just a year ago. So this is an unusual election. Yeah, I know. You feel it. I mean, in every conversation, I don't know about you, Octavia, but it feels like it just, you know, with this cycle.

5:05Storing a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required. Compatibility and availability varies 18+. Hey, Chicago. Class it up with Crocs. You know back to school is coming in fast. So why wait to find your new fave footwear? Step into a local croc store and step into your new look. Try it. Style it. Make it yours. Because the right pair doesn't just show up. It shows off. First day fits, handled.

5:45Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest croc store today. It fits everywhere you go. There really was no escape. Yeah, it's just, this was my first time, of course. but I know for so many people they're voting in a different way to how they may have done before. You know, election officials are dealing with an unprecedented volume of votes by mail. I'm in California. I voted by mail, but I was able to use a ballot drop box here last week, but my ballot didn't arrive when it was supposed to. So, you know, there was the panic of like calling the registrar's office and finding out that I needed to re-register to vote and doing that again in time.

6:27And so I know for a lot of people who've been waiting by the mailbox, it's hard. And then people who are perhaps going in person today. And then there's the what comes next because the count and what happens between now and then. Yeah, I know. Like, when will we know, right? Yeah, exactly. All right.

6:49Frances X. Frei:So why don't we, let's try to get Frances in here. Let me give her a proper introduction. Again, she's a professor, Francis Fry, she's a professor at Harvard Business School. She's an expert in leadership and strategy. In 2017, she was named Uber's first senior vice president of leadership and strategy, a role that was created to bring her in to help the company navigate its own public culture crisis. She's the bestselling co-author with her wife and professional partner, Ann Morris, of a couple of great books, including the newly published, Unleashed, The Unapologetic Leader's Guide to Empowering Everyone Around You.

7:26Frances X. Frei:So, Frances, welcome. Oh, thank you so much, Adi. It's really a pleasure to be here. Yeah, well, we're really honored that, you know, on this day of all days, you've given us your time. But let's talk about this day of all days. So, you know, it's election day, and I think we could use some Frances to help us cope with what's going on here. So, you know, this is an emotional day. We actually gave all of our employees the day off, a kind of wellness day, understanding the level of anxiety about the election, about COVID, about post-election unrest, if there is any. Help us, you know, how do we get through this?

8:04Frances X. Frei:How do we keep up morale, our corporate values in such a polarizing moment? Yeah, so a couple of things I rely on. One, more people have voted, I think, than ever before. everyone is engaged, which is, you know, in years past, people are trying to convince people to vote. That has like, that's a sign of the past. Now we're trying to find out how to vote. And we just heard Octavia like checked twice to make sure we're doing it. So we have really broad participation in our, like in this beautiful democracy that we have, which makes me more is better. So that calms me down quite a lot. I think that once we know what happens, once we know who's elected, there's a lot of chatter around the edges of bad things that are going to happen.

8:52I don't think any of that will happen. I think we'll have a very orderly transition. And this is just the chatter that people say at the end. People that are more afraid of losing tend to chatter more, just like in sports and in politics. But I find this to be a beautiful day in America. More people are exercising their right to vote. And I think we're going to know the results of that vote relatively quickly.

9:21Frances X. Frei:So I would say that is truly calming. If you just joined us, this is HBR Now. I'm speaking with Francis Fry. I can see we have people tuning in from all over the world. If you have questions of your own for Francis, please enter them and we'll try to get to as many as we can later. But Francis, let me ask, so I'd like everything you've said, but you know, whatever happens today, we are in this very polarized, I think over-politicized moment. Certainly. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks.

10:07Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required. Compatibility and availability varies 18+. Hey, Chicago. Class it up with Crocs. You know back to school is coming in fast. So why wait to find your new fave footwear? Step into a local croc store and step into your new look. Try it. Style it. Make it yours. Because the right pair doesn't just show up. It shows off. First day fits, handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest croc store today.

10:47Frances X. Frei:And I think it's easy to say, well, we should all just get along. But it doesn't seem that easy just because people seem to feel that the other side is not just other, but is wrong or ignorant or evil. How do you, you know, and bring it back to business, maybe. How do you create a culture that enables people really to move forward together? Yeah, and we call it a culture of inclusion. And you would have heard about it a lot if you're thinking about diversity and inclusion, gender and inclusion. So here's the beautiful thing about inclusion. If I am inclusive of difference and you are not, I am going to thump you with a very technical term.

11:25So the more inclusive of difference I am, the more success my and my organization are going to have. This is going to bring forward a type of difference that isn't always brought to the surface. In fact, maybe it's brought to the surface every four years, if at most, because sometimes it isn't. So the advice I have is that one, difference is good. Like if we can get benefit from the variation of everyone, we can achieve further. Two, it is really hard to make progress with someone if you have a two dimensional caricature of them in your mind. So I would not interact with someone until I understood that they were a three dimensional being.

12:04And if I just have that two dimensional caricature, it's time for me to take a time out. It's not I'm not I'm not in a responsible place to be able to interact.

12:13Frances X. Frei:So I think what you're describing is how colleagues get along with one another. But, you know, as leaders, as people who are tasked with bringing an organization, healing an organization if need be, or bringing a culture forward, again, in this sort of polarizing time, you know, what are some of the best approaches for me? Yeah. So, I mean, so, you know, when we talk about an inclusion dialogue, you first have to make it safe and welcome, regardless of any difference that anyone represents. That's totally true today. Regardless of what you voted, we have to feel safe and welcome in any organization that we go into.

12:49And so it's safe and welcome and celebrated. And here's the way to think about it. If you're all set, like you just are feeling included, then you should be looking out to see who else could use an oxygen mask. But if you're barely feeling safe, like if it's a really wobbly day for you, you should just be looking for your own oxygen mask and not look to take care of everyone else. So leadership is about others. It's about taking care of others. So be oxygenated in order to help others. But if you're not in a position to be oxygenated, just be super self-distracted until you're ready. There's plenty of us to fill in the gaps.

13:26yeah thanks for that Francis and you know I'm a coach and this time has been really hard for so many people that I'm talking to and so many people have said that they just wish they could go into hibernation until it's all over and coupled with all of the things that we're facing right now with the election we're all working you know in completely different ways to how we've done so before. I know you are in terms of the work that you're doing. One of the things that I did in the TED talk that you gave was you advised don't mute who you are in the world. But as we're adapting to how we're working, most of us are finding us muted pretty often, whether it's on Zoom or WebEx or whatever we're using.

14:10And when we do have something to contribute, it's not always easy to use your voice. What are your thoughts on that in terms of how we're working now? Is remote working a new frontier for inequity or is it an opportunity to break the norms and have a better dialogue? I think it's the latter. I think it's an opportunity to break the norms. Just for example, all four of us are democratized on this screen. That's just never been true in any room, in any building in the entire world. Everyone who's on the screen is democratized. That's the first thing. The second thing is we all have exactly the same technology at our disposal.

14:45So we're given the same tools, we're given the same This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required, compatibility and availability varies 18+. Hey, Chicago. Class it up with Crocs. You know back to school is coming in fast.

15:20So why wait to find your new fave footwear? Step into a local croc store and step into your new look. Try it. Style it. Make it yours. Because the right pair doesn't just show up. It shows off. First day fits, handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest croc store today. We're given the same size. Now, I think the way in which the meetings are led, that should change quite a lot. But frankly, when we change them on this new world, we're going to want to go back and change them in the old world. So in our experience, we've been doing some studies on this. Meetings are about two times as long as they should be.

16:03So if you look at any meeting, if it's a two hour meeting, that's about two times the optimal of what it should be. That if you went back and reengineered it, you could do just as much, probably more with less re-litigation in 60 minutes. On Zoom, it's really important that we do that work because it's exhausting to always be looking and to never have a break. And so what I'd say is that we have some basic principles that we have to do, but I think we're going to get to the new frontier of democratizing everyone's input. But like when we chat, it's not like your chat comes up higher than my chat.

16:41Who's got an idea here? Like literally you can't tear them. All of the ideas are the same. So I'm very, very excited about what this technology holds for us. I love that view. And for anyone watching who perhaps is leading a team, what advice would you give about how they can set their people up for success? Yeah, especially now. I mean, you're bringing your workplace into your home environment. if you're working remotely, there's the technology, there's the dynamic. I have two pieces of advice. So one is if you're leading a meeting, start, ask a question. Somebody from the majority is for sure going to answer the question.

17:19Let them. But the next person who wants to talk is also going to be in the majority. Stop that. Instead, after the first person speaks, ask, can someone articulate an alternate point of view? And for the third person, ask, can someone articulate an alternate point of view? You have now just gotten the contours of difference that you've diverged, and now you can go ahead and converge. If we don't do that, we'll converge really quickly, and then it's super hard to converge, particularly when we're tired, particularly from all of the Zoom fatigue. So that's the first one, is that diverge before you converge, and the facilitator should do it because we won't naturally do it.

17:59And then the second one is – I forgot. Well, let me, nice to see you, even if it is over this video here. But I'm curious because I also heard you talk when you first came to Uber that there were these behaviors, that people text in the meeting about the meeting. And he has one of these lines. And now with Zoom and everything and WebEx or whatever, there's so many potential toxic behaviors for sure because it's much, much harder. It's much harder to stay focused. So with those, are you seeing those things? And then even when you were at Uber now, going from the real world to the Zoom world, what should you be doing to really try to learn behaviors that you're talking about that are just more productive?

18:58Yeah. So, I mean, the same way that in real meetings, it was technology off and away. Otherwise, the meeting is going to be twice as long. So do you prefer to multitask or do you prefer to have half the length of the meeting? The same way now. I mean, in the old world, we agreed that we would show each other the top of our heads if that meant that we were multitasking. Now we agree that we're multitasking if we do this. But everyone knows if anyone else is multitasking. It's not like someone is so sleuth at it. And here's the thing. It's a sign that you are self-distracted over other distracted.

19:32You've abdicated any ability to lead, and people are going to probably trust you less. But it's at your discretion. So that's an interesting thing about the trust piece too, because I did.

20:10Hey Chicago, class it up with Crocs. You know back to school is coming in fast. So why wait to find your new fave footwear? Step into a local Crocs store and step into your new look. Try it. Style it. Make it yours. Because the right pair doesn't just show up. It shows off. First day fits, handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest Crocs store today. I hear Ted talk pretty closely on trust. Nobody's going to trust you if you're multitasking. They're going to doubt your empathy. They're going to think it's all about you. And by not trusting you, it just means when you have a good idea, good luck getting it legislated quickly.

20:52But is it even, I mean, I love, these are subtle signs that you're talking about too, when you can lose trust over a Zoom cause it, is it that much tougher? It feels more difficult to build trust and do all the things. Oh, I think you can rebuild it. So trust can be built and rebuilt super quickly. A great way to rebuild it is to name it and say, you know what? I was being super selfish. I was doing this. I thought it was better. In retrospect, I should have turned my video off. But instead, I was a distraction. My deep apologies. I'll do better. Gone.

21:25Frances X. Frei:Interesting. So once again, if you're watching this, if you have questions, please enter them in the comments box, and we will try to get to your questions later. Frances, I want to ask, you have worked for prominent companies that in some ways are notorious or at least have had their share of unflattering headlines. And that was Uber in its earlier days, WeWork, even Riot Games. Can you talk about your experience? You were brought in, I think, each case to try to help either fix or improve a faulty culture. How does that work? Can you talk a little bit about your experience? How do you come in from the outside and try to move the needle in improving a culture?

22:10Well, the first thing I do from the outside is, so I like going into places that have big problems, because particularly big problems that if we can solve them there, it gives blueprints and license for many others to solve them. So going to Uber meant they had some very bad problems. and they kind of gave license to a lot of other companies to be like, we have very bad problems too, but you know, so does Uber. So if we could fix it at Uber, it really takes that excuse away or it gives a roadmap on how to do it. So it was really important to me to go to Uber with the exception that I had to make sure they were good people.

22:44So I did a lot of due diligence, um, to make sure that they were good people. And if you look at nine months to do a cultural turnaround. There were over 10 ,000 people. We separated with 20 people the first month I got there. So we did the cultural turnaround with the same employees, which fits my test of it was good people that were behaving badly. And we were sometimes giving them the wrong secret memo, sometimes not educating them the right way, sometimes putting them in the conditions not to thrive. We were able to clean all of that up very quickly. So I like helping good people win. I have no expectation of perfection.

23:23In fact, I think perfection is one of the worst things that has been, it's like super insidious. It gets us, when we think that we can only bring a perfect version of ourselves, we're really inauthentic. We don't show our whole selves. We only show that. We set the conditions for other people to only show an inauthentic version of their selves. So I'm okay with stumbles. It's the getting up and the being righteous when you get up and being helpful to others when you get up. But I can't, you know, Harvard said no to me five times before I get here. Like, I'm not a get it right the first time sort of person.

23:58Yeah, I'm curious, though. I feel like so many leaders talk about walking a tightrope today, not wanting to say the wrong thing. And, you know, this notion that, like, how do you bring that true self, you know, your true self to work, as your colleague, Bench, that Gina talks a lot about, when you're constantly worried about, well, I'm going to make a misstep in a political climate or whatever. Listen, if you're so worried you're going to make a misstep, I'm worried about your base of knowledge. there are look and you know this from there every year i come back to hbs and there are words i used to get to say in the class traditional home security only alerts you after a break-in and that's too late simply safe is changing that stop this is simply safe police are on the way we don't just alert we stop crime before it starts simply safe plan starting around a dollar a day save 60 on a new system with professional monitoring during our 20th anniversary sale at simplisafe.com slash Spotify.

25:02Outdoor deterrence requires a SimpliSafe Active Guard outdoor protection plan starting at$49.99 a month. Visit simplisafe.com slash licenses for alarm license information. Tennessee 2012. Last year, I'm not allowed to say this year. I can remember when meritocracy became a bad word. I can remember all of these things. So you can either handle it as, oh my gosh, I made a mistake. I can't believe it. Or, wow, I used to be able to say that. I can't anymore. My apologies. Let's move forward. Here was my intention. So this tightrope means that you don't really understand. You're somehow I don't mean this the bad way, but you're somehow victim of circumstance.