Mastering the Skill of Persuasion | HBR IdeaCast | Podcast

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1:06Welcome to the HBR IdeaCast from Harvard Business Review. I'm Alison Beard.

1:17How do you get someone to back your ideas, buy your products, or behave in a different way? Whether it's a boss or a peer, customer or client, supplier or investor, or maybe people failing to wear masks during a pandemic. How do you get them to see things your way, especially if they initially disagree with you, discount you, or even worse, don't even know you're there? Even with irrefutable data and emotional appeals, it can be really hard to change another person's mind. Most of us get extremely stuck in our opinions, preferences, and habits. Today's guest argues that it's possible to push even the most resistant people in new directions.

1:52He says that persuasion starts with recognizing the reasons why affecting change is so very difficult, and then developing strategies to overcome those obstacles. Jonah Berger is a marketing professor at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School and author of The Catalyst, How to Change Anyone's Mind. And a quick note to listeners. We spoke to Jonah a while back, before the pandemic and its fallout. but we checked in with him for an update on how these ideas apply now, and you'll hear that conversation at the end of the show.

2:32We know that persuasion is so important in business, politics, all areas of life, really. Some people seem a lot better at it than others. So what's the number one mistake that most people make in this area? You know, everyone has something they want to change. Employees want to change their boss's mind and leaders want to transform organizations. Marketers want to change the customer client's mind. Sales folks want to do the same. Startups want to change industries. Nonprofits want to change the world. But change is really hard. Often we push and we push and we push and nothing happens. We think about changing minds.

3:07We think about changing behavior. We think about changing organizations. often we take a certain style of approach. We think if we just add more information, more reasons, more facts, more figures, just send people one more PowerPoint deck, they'll come around. And that intuition makes a lot of sense in the physical world. If we're sitting in front of a chair, for example, and we want to move that chair, a good way to move that chair is pushing. We push a little bit on the chair, and it goes in the direction we want it to go. But in the social world, that doesn't necessarily work. Because when we push people, they often push back.

3:39asking a subtly but importantly different question, why hasn't that person changed already? What are the barriers or obstacles that are getting in the way of change? And how can we mitigate them? So why do people have this instinct to push back, even when the thing being suggested might be good for them? We all love to feel like we're in control. We love to feel like we're shaping and we're driving our own lives. We're making the choice. But unfortunately, when other people try to shape our opinions, we don't feel like we have control. Think about a few years back to the Tide Pod challenge. So if you remember a number of years ago, Tide Pod was having this issue, Procter & Gamble was having this issue where Tide Pods, the things that we all throw in the laundry to make laundry easier, people were eating them.

4:26And so you think about detergent, why would anyone eat detergent? But there was a funny article on the onions saying they look good enough to eat. And soon young people were challenging each other to eat Tide Pods. And so there was all this chatter online about, oh, should we eat Tide Pods? Should we not? People, you know, shooting videos of themselves doing it. Lots of people getting attention. Should we eat poison or not? For this sort of ridiculous, ridiculous thing. And so imagine you're sitting in Procter & Gamble's shoes at the moment, right? You're probably sitting there going, why do we need to...

5:05Like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required compatibility and availability varies 18+. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes.

5:39Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. Tell people not to eat chemicals, but you're probably saying, you know, just in case we'll put out an announcement. So Procter & Gamble does. They put out a very simple announcement saying don't eat Tide Pods. And in case that wasn't enough, they hire Rob Gronkowski, a famous football player we think of as Gronk, to help. So he shoots this quick video for Tide online saying, you know, are Tide Pods ever safe to eat?

6:12No, no, no, no, no, no, no, flashes on the screen. Now, clearly, this should have been enough. It shouldn't have been a problem to begin with, right? I mean, people are eating chemicals. But interestingly, if you look at the data, something funny happens. So if you look at search data for Tide Pods, it's creeping up as the Tide Pod challenge gets some attention. And then Procter & Gamble and Gronk make their announcement. And that's when all hell breaks loose. So you would think or you would hope that that would lead people to stop eating Tide Pods. If anything, it should have no effect on Tide Pods.

6:44But the exact opposite happens. Search traffic shoots up by more than fourfold. Visits to poison control shoot up as well. and essentially asking people not to do something had backfired. And so how do you get people to overcome this instinct to push back and saying, no, I don't want to be told what to do? Yeah, I mean, the funniest and almost worst thing about reactance is it isn't just when we tell people not to do something. The same thing happens when we tell people to do something, even if it was something they may have wanted to do already, right? You think about a meeting where you're asking people to support a certain initiative.

7:19they may have already even thought about supporting that initiative. But if you ask them to support it, it impinges on that freedom and autonomy. They feel like now the reason they're supporting it isn't because they wanted to. It was because you told them to, which makes them have this knee-jerk reaction. Well, maybe I shouldn't go along. And so one way to solve this problem is to do something called providing a menu. So imagine just in your own personal life, for example, someone asks, what are you going to do this weekend? Or what do you want to do this weekend? You say, oh, let's go see a movie.

7:49and then they go, oh, it's going to be too rainy outside or, oh, you know, why don't we do something else instead, right? They shoot it down. But if said you give them two options, multiple options, it suddenly changes their role. Because now rather than sitting there thinking about all the reasons wrong with what you suggested, now they're thinking about which of the two options you suggested is a better fit for them. Consultants do this all the time, right? Consultants say, hey, look, if I pitch one thing to the client, the client will think about all the reasons why they can't do it. If I pitch two, maybe even three solutions to the client, now they're strategizing, okay, well, which one of these do I like better?

8:22And because they're focusing on which one they like better, they're more likely to pick one at the end of that meeting. So what are some of the other big hurdles that we face when we're trying to get someone to change, whether it's an opinion or the products and services we're using? So there are five common barriers I found across situations. We talked about reactants. The next is endowment, which is we tend to be attached to things we're doing already. Then there's distance. Too far, if we ask for something that's too big an ask, people ignore it. And corroborating evidence, which is all about providing more proof.

8:54I think another big issue is uncertainty. Anytime there's a change, anytime there's something new, anytime we're asking people to do something different, there's a risk associated with doing something different. Old things feel safe. Even if they're not perfect, have problems associated with them, we know what those problems are, right? Whereas new things, we don't even know what those problems are. And so often people feel quite uncertain. If you think about it, new things often involve switching costs as well, right? So think about buying a new phone, for example. It costs money to buy that new phone.

9:24That's a cost of switching. But there's often time and effort costs as well. So if you're pitching a new project to your boss, for example, they're not only thinking they're, okay, well, how much will it cost to do this? We're thinking, God, how much effort is going to be? Who are we going to switch off another project? And all those switching costs lead them to say, well, no thanks. and even worse, think about when the costs and the benefits occur. So the costs of change are often up front, where the benefits are later. We're not going to know for another month or two whether it's actually going to make it.

9:53This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required compatibility and availability varies 18+. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more.

10:30Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Money are actually going to be a good idea. And even worse, those costs are certain, whereas the benefits are uncertain. And so that's what I call the cost-benefit timing gap, right? Costs are now, and they're certain. Benefits are later, and they're uncertain. And so that cost-benefit gap is going to make it hard for change to happen.

11:05So I'd love to give you a few scenarios of people like our listeners who might be trying to persuade colleagues or customers to change their behavior, but coming up against these obstacles you're talking about, and you can give us advice on how they should handle it. I feel like this is like an advice column in the newspaper. I'll do my best. Exactly. And so I think the first one deals with that uncertainty hurdle that you were just talking about. So you're a bank executive charged with getting existing customers to use a new app and making sure that it helps you attract new customers. Yeah. Go.

11:49So it's funny. I did a very similar project like this a few years ago for Yum! Brands. So one of their food brands, Taco Bell, was actually launching an app. and the app was doing okay. People were downloading it, but they weren't using it. And so one thing we spent a lot of time on is thinking about why and how to change it. Is the issue that people don't know the app exists, so it's an awareness problem. Do people know the app exists, but don't think it's any good? Then we need to convince them it's good. Do they think it's good, but they don't want to download it? Okay, why might that be? Are they downloading it, but not using it?

12:21That's a different problem. And so I think the first thing we need to do is diagnose that problem, right? Why aren't people changing? where is the bottleneck in that process, and then begin to think about how to solve it. So let's say that the bottleneck is people aren't downloading the app. Yeah. So I think one question I would say is, well, what are they doing at the moment? So are they happily going into the bank, but they don't realize that app exists? Or they think, ah, God, I'm not sure it's going to be trustworthy enough. What's going to happen with my personal data. If that's what they're uncertain about, then the question is, how can I resolve that uncertainty?

13:02And how can I make them feel more comfortable that it's actually not a problem? And so one thing I think a lot about in those type of situations is almost like a test drive for cars, right? So if you think about it, if a car company said, hey, great, you like our car, you think you might like our car, that's wonderful, pay$30 ,000, and then we'll let you check it out. You'd say, what do you mean? I'm not paying$30 ,000 for a car before I figure out whether I like it. I want to sit inside and drive it and do all those other things. That's exactly what a test drive does, right? A test drive reduces that barrier, that upfront cost of trial.

13:35And so I would ask the same thing with the app, right? What is that cost for those individuals that are not downloading the app? Is it they're worried about trust? Okay, how can you show them how safe their data is going to be? Is it concerns about not feeling they know how to use it? How can you resolve that uncertainty? Maybe have a white glove concierge service where they come in one day and you have a day every month, almost like the Apple Store where they do training, where you train people on how to use the app. Notice that the problem is trust versus the problem is knowledge about using it.

14:05Those are very different problems that need very different solutions. Second scenario, you're working on a project with a group and you want to take it in one direction, but your teammate is convinced you should go another. So I think that idea of reactance that we talked about before is going to be important here as well. Obviously, they have something they want. And so you just telling them about what you want isn't going to be enough. And if anything, if you seem like you're advocating for what you want, they're going to push back. And so first is to just start with understanding. I talk a lot in the book about shrinking distance.

14:40You know, sometimes we think about sort of a choice. Like in this case, do we go with my option or someone else's option, almost like a football field, right? This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser. But Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required compatibility and availability varies 18+.

15:15When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. One end zone is my option. The other end zone is their option. and various people in the organization may be arrayed on that continuum.

15:51And the problem is if we ask for too much, we ask that person to do our option, they're going to say, well, no way. That's on the other side of the football field. That's sort of in my region of rejection. I'm not even going to consider it. It's too far away from where I am now. I'm not going to move that far. In those situations, a couple things come up. First, often we have to start by asking for less. Rather than starting by saying, hey, completely switch to my side, ask for something that's a lot closer to where they are already and get them to move just a little bit. This has two, I think, key benefits, right?

16:21One, it gets them to move a little bit in your direction, but then it also makes what you're suggesting originally seem less far away. I talked to a doctor, for example, that was trying to get someone to lose a bunch of weight. So it's an overweight trucker. The guy was drinking like three liters of Mountain Dew a day. He was on the road all the time. The knee-jerk reaction in that situation is tell him not to drink any Mountain Dew, right? It's got all this sugar in it. It's like eating a couple of Snicker bars a day. It's terrible for you. Just tell them to quit cold turkey. Same thing in the office context, right?

16:49Tell your colleague just to switch to your side, which obviously isn't going to work, right? It's so far in their region of rejection, they're just going to say no way outright. So instead, what she did is she asked for less. She said, hey, rather than drinking three liters a day, drink two. And so he grumbled and said, oh, I don't know if I want to do it. And said, okay, fine. And a few weeks later, came back and had gotten it down to two. Then when he got down to two, she said, okay, now go down to one. And then when he came back a few months later, once he moved from one, moved from one to zero.

17:17And it took a while, right? Didn't happen right away. Didn't happen in a day or a week. But this guy's lost over 25 pounds by doing this because it's not just about asking for less. It's about asking for less and then asking for more. So third scenario, you want a raise or promotion and are trying to convince your boss that you deserve it. Yeah. I mean, I think a good one for this goes back to providing the menu that we talked a little bit about before, right? If you give your boss one option, you say, I want a raise, the boss is going to think about no. So you can say something like, you know, hey boss, I'd either like a raise or I'd like more days off.

17:53And I'd, by the way, I'd start with something else, you know, showing your value to the organization saying, hey, you know, I've been here this long, this blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, I'd appreciate something, either more compensation, a raise, or more days off or more equity or more control, something else. And what that does, again, right, is that gives that person choice. Rather than feeling like you've barged in their office and you've told them what to do, because you're encouraging them to focus on two things you like, they're less likely to think about that third thing, which is just saying no.

18:24So often when we talk about influence, we hear it needs to appeal to both the head and the heart. You know, so you're presenting data and you're appealing to people's emotions. how does this play in into overcoming the hurdles you're talking about? Yeah, I mean, I think emotion is certainly one of the thing that's wrapped up in this idea. There's lots of research that shows that people value things they're doing already more than new things. So a famous study, for example, has people, hey, you know, look at this product. Imagine you own it. How much would you sell it for? They ask another set of people, imagine you don't own it, how much would you buy it for?

19:03What research finds is if you already have it, it's the status quo, you're doing it already, you value it a lot more. We're attached to old things. There's even some nice research on home buyers and sellers, for example. The longer you've lived in a home, the more money you think it's worth, even controlling for its actual value. You become emotionally attached to it. But we're not only attached to the old, we're also scared of the new. There's a lot of work on neophobia, for example. It says, look, we're scared that this new thing is going to work out. We're anxious about whether it's actually going to be successful.

19:34Anytime we don't know what's going to happen, we tend to want to hit the pause button, right? We're scared of new things. We're scared of stuff we don't understand. We're scared of things that are different from what we're doing. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense?

20:04There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required compatibility and availability varies 18 plus. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero?

20:38This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. ... both that they might be worse than what we're already doing, but also they may not be better. And that anxiety, that uncertainty often stems action. Do these techniques work differently depending on who has more power in the situation? Can someone who's sort of low on the totem pole use them? And then does a boss even need to? What's definitely true is that the higher up you are in an organization, the more power you have, right? The more ability you have to legislate something, the more ability you have to say, this is just what we're doing. I don't care whether you want to do this or not.

21:12This is just what I say goes. I think, unfortunately, as many bosses who are listening are probably well aware, they may say that, but it doesn't mean the rank and file move. What I think is nice about these ideas is whether you're the lowest employee on the totem pole in an organization or you're the boss and you can legislate things, I think these tools are equally useful. Because to really change minds, we have to understand those barriers. We have to understand the psychology that's preventing change and how to mitigate it. So your first two books were about how ideas and products catch on, how they become contagious, and how invisible influences can shape our decisions.

21:48Is the idea between your work on Catalyst that they're also supposed to be so subtle that we don't notice them and all of a sudden everyone's buying into our ideas and everyone wants to buy our products and services? You know, I think what's really neat is if you look at success stories in a variety of industries, you tend to see the same patterns. So, you know, for this book, yes, I interviewed great bosses, transformational leaders, but I also talked about regular Joes and Janes who got their boss to adopt a new project. I talked to startup founders who got their stuff to catch on. I talked to hostage negotiators who figured out how to get people to come out with their hands up.