Real Talk: Black Women on Balancing Pressure, Fatigue, and New Opportunities in Uncertain Times

0:01Hi, I'm Ellen Bailey, Vice President for Diversity and Culture at Harvard Business Publishing. And I am absolutely thrilled to be joined by two wonderful folks today. We have Octavia Goradima, who is the author of Prep, Push, Pivot. And we also have Laura Morgan Roberts, who is a workplace psychologist. So thank you both for joining us today. Thanks for having us. Great to be here. We are here because with the crisis, the pandemic, the social unrest over the past 18 months, has taken a real toll and has really impacted women, Black women in particular, disproportionately so. And so why kind of the three of us are here today talking about that is honestly because as I would have one-on-ones with Octavia and I would have one-on-ones with Laura, the two of you significantly helped me continue to kind of make it through that era as well as continue to keep going and having the energy to move forward now.

1:05As a Black woman, there is that gender and racial disparity. There's the intersection of being Black and being a woman. And that intersection is critical because we are often in organizations the only. And with being the only, there comes some pressure, whether it's put on us by other folks or whether it's pressure that we put on ourselves because when you're often the only in an organization, you are not only wanting to show up well and represent yourself, but you feel that you're representing others as well that aren't in the room. So how do we kind of balance the pressure and the stress and the fatigue with the onus of wanting to do well for not only yourself and others and help kind of right that ship.

1:59You know, the first time, Laura, you and I connected one-on-one, I asked you, I said, so how are you? And I'm trying to be all energetic and smiles. And you looked at me with a very straight face and said, I'm exhausted. And I remember putting my head in my hands and going, oh my gosh, me too. And so for the first time, I actually felt validated that my feelings and what I was going through was real and it wasn't just me. Yes, Ellen, I have deep, deep resonance for what you're sharing. I remember that conversation. We had set aside time to talk about some strategic initiatives and what we could do to collaborate and advance the work.

2:46But it felt like the first thing we needed to do was just to level set and check in on one another and see how we were doing. You know, I think some of the most unsettling aspects of the past 18 months were that we were really thrown into a frenzied state whereby the stakes were so high. So I felt on the one hand, I'm looking at folks on Instagram and other places talking about all the bread that they're baking and what kinds of quarantine projects they're doing. And I'm like, what's going on? I'm in sort of a can't stop, won't stop phase here. People in organizations, CEOs, boards of directors now wanted to have conversations about race and racism and spinning those off into other conversations about exclusion, injustice, belongingness, equity.

3:43And so many times we looked at the center of those conversations and we found Black and brown women leading the conversations. And then we're tasked with helping to develop the solutions to these problems and challenges. So exhausted is one word, you know, in a nutshell. At times it was also exhilarating and invigorating. It felt incredibly impactful, but we had to be mindful of the kind of toll this type of work takes on us, as you mentioned before, that battle fatigue. You said it beautifully because it is highs and lows. You know, I have days where I leave so energized. I'm like, it was such a great day.

4:26You saw some movement. You saw some change. Somebody in your meeting had a huge aha. And you're like, yes. And then there are the other days where there's something else on the news or something doesn't go quite as well. And you're exactly right. And, you know, Octavia, when I would talk with you one-on-one, I would, you know, I'd like dive right into the work and you would always pause and ask me, Ellen, how are you today? How are you doing? And you would lean into the camera, even when we're on, you know, a video call. And I felt that you truly cared and asked. And when I would, if I would gloss over it and be like, oh, I'm good.

5:04I'm fine. You know, or you'd be like, nope, like really, how are you? And no matter what I said, no matter how I responded, you acknowledged and validated that my feelings were real. And so I think about that also with the work that you do. Oh, well, thank you, Ellen. And, you know, it's a lot. It's a lot. And I mean, the three of us, we're all in different parts of the country. And we're all experiencing slightly different things because no one's having the same experience right now. And I know through my work as a career coach that so many black women are reeling and I think to the points that you were both making so beautifully earlier we were kind of just operating maybe just in survival mode for so long I know I feel that my heart is so heavy right now I feel like I just kept dealing with so much last year um in terms of everything that we as a nation were confronting all at the same time the pandemic um just trying to stay afloat just in terms of the work that needed to be done um as a mother of two daughters um just trying to navigate them through all of that and now i myself am realizing and and so many people i'm talking to are realizing that we're exhausted and it's almost like it's um a delayed reaction i think to so much that we've been through and i think how it feels can be different for all of us as well i i've been really paying attention myself to like how I feel inside and stress can have really interesting ways of showing itself so I think just understanding and paying attention to how we as individuals feel is so important and trusting our gut about how we feel and are we okay?

7:23Are we not okay in this moment? Thank you for your candor and your authenticity there, Octavia, because it's right. It impacts us all differently. And back to even just that workload, you and Laura both called out the workload. And I think we are all so passionate about doing every single thing we can. We need to pause and I'm terrible at it. You know, like I'm terrible at it. I'm like, just go, go, go. Because then I feel guilty if I actually stop and pause or take vacation days because my mind is reeling on then what's not happening, you know, when I'm done and am I doing absolutely everything I can.

8:08Yeah, we have to make space for ourselves because while this moment has been such an important one, we know this is a journey of a lifetime. This is a journey of a lifetime. And I know from my own perspective, a lot of the things that I've had to reconcile is how many things I let slide in the workplace and in my career and how we can't do that anymore. But also how important it is to recognise in addition to this moment, it's everything that has to come. And the most important resource we have are ourselves, our health and our well-being. And we have to protect that. We have to protect that at all costs.

8:52And I think managing expectations, our own expectations in particular, is the hardest part. And I'd love to hear from your perspective. Laura, how have you been handling that? You do so many things at the same time. How have you been navigating that? Yeah, you know, it's a really important question. It's a tough question because life doesn't stop. You know, so much has happened politically and socially from a public health standpoint, within the economy and around social justice. And, you know, and at the same time, life didn't stop in all of the mundane aspects of life. It didn't stop. Kids going through puberty didn't stop.

9:49Not in my household. Marriages coming to an end didn't stop. Not in my household. Parents getting sick. That didn't stop either, even though we were miles away and I couldn't jump on a plane and go be there for a sick parent. So all of these things are happening, you know, simultaneously. And so the question then for me, Octavia, is like, where is my center? You know, where is my center of gravity? What is most important to me today? Because life seems to be urgent for everyone. But I have to define what the priority is and how I can really bring my best self to whatever I'm signing up for on any given day.

10:35Do I want to keep working from sunup to sundown, you know, stacking Zooms and WebExes because technologically it's possible? I decided this year I wasn't going to do that anymore. anymore. I did it for a year, but now I'm going to give myself transition time between meetings. I'm going to cut it off at certain times of day when my body says I'm tired. I respect that my body is tired. And so I allow myself to press pause and pick it up tomorrow, even if what's urgent for somebody has to wait another 24 to 48 hours. Yeah, I love what you share there about setting some boundaries because that can be a very difficult thing to do and here's what I think has been bittersweet about everything that's unfolded over this past year all of a sudden there's a real spotlight on black women and maybe for so many of us I know I can say for myself there are suddenly opportunities that there may never have been previously because people are suddenly sitting up and paying attention and suddenly people are reaching out and asking hey Ellen can you do this hey Octavia would you like to do that hey Laura are you able to jump in on this and yes some of those things are fantastic and it's important but some of those things are just not possible to do and it's so so difficult it's so so difficult especially when there are so few of us and we know that representation matters and being a role model matters and where we show up matters um but we can't do everything at once um it's been a hard lesson i've had to learn this past year while i was homeschooling and writing a book and doing my work and supporting others around us because that's the thing as you said Ellen at the time we might be asking how are we but how are we really and when we're not doing so well and we can see others around us are not doing so well lending that support as well takes so much from us.

12:50Laura I'd be interested you work with so many organizations I work with so many professionals in terms of supporting them in terms of in the workplace and you work with so many organizations where do you think employers might be able to be cognizant and maybe lend support to Black women right now? Yeah, so this question of support is a little tricky when it comes to Black women, because for generations, Black women have been in roles that structurally require them to be caregivers for everyone else, to be supporters of everyone else. You know, you look at the top 10 roles and occupations in the U.S.

13:38for Black women and for many other women of color, you see caregiving roles represent seven of 10 of the top, the top occupations. So that's in the healthcare industries, it's in the service industries. And then when you look at college degrees, we also see a high representation in teaching. And we know what's been happening in our schools over the past 18 months as well, all around the world. It's also challenging for Black women to raise their hands and say, I can't. And part of that is because Black women live by a mantra, as do many other marginalized and impacted workers, you got to do twice as much to get half as far.

14:26Now, organizations, first off then, can try to address the root cause of the exhaustion. Okay, then we'll get to the support piece. But if we start with the support piece, then we're just going to continue to have this perpetuating cycle, right? So address the root cause of the exhaustion. When it comes to this workload piece, we've talked about two things today. One is just a basic performance and having to work twice as hard, not necessarily getting the plumb roles and assignments. Organizations, managers can be helpful in setting up Black women and members of other marginalized and impacted communities, setting them up for success.

15:10Help them to have plumb assignments that are well-resourced with a high chance of success. Black and female CEOs generally get glass cliff leadership assignments, which means there's a lot at stake and there's a high risk of failure and limited resources and support, but yet are expected to knock it out of the park. So set them up for success. Second, value the contributions that they're making to the organizations. We know there's a persistent pay gap and that Black women's equal pay day is in August. That's the month in which Black women on average earn the same amount that their white male counterparts would have earned in January for doing similar work.

15:57Okay, so there's a disparity and that disparity persists. That creates more exhaustion because you've got to work harder, often for Black women as head of household, to provide for the needs of your family and to get paid or compensated fairly for the work that you're doing. Organizations can help to alleviate a lot of that pressure immediately. And then when it comes to DEI work, as we've mentioned before, As Ellen was noting, it's often, often Black women who were carrying the weight of that work on our shoulders. A recent report by Stephanie Creary and colleagues at the Wharton School, in collaboration with a number of companies, documented that Black women are the ones who are most likely to raise awareness around diversity, equity, and inclusion issues.

16:55There's other research, though, that supports that Black women and women of other backgrounds often are penalized for engaging in diversity, equity, and inclusion work. It counts against them when they're being reviewed for bonuses, for promotion opportunities, and so forth. So support tangibly looks like rewarding and acknowledging all of the contributions that people are making, especially the ones that Black women are making in their official roles, as well as being diversity, equity and inclusion champions. yeah i i so much of what you shared there really resonated with me and as you said the data speaks for itself and i think there's something within that even when we may be feeling exhausted and overwhelmed how important it is to use our voice not just in terms of supporting and amplifying and advocating others but for ourselves and also in terms of recognizing what we need in the workplace what we need in terms of the support and the investment to allow us to have the space and I think it's also having that permission to fail you know because that's a very very difficult thing to do when you've had to fight your way through your entire career you often don't realize how much you're carrying until you realize that you're afraid to make a mistake or afraid to say no, or afraid to ask for more, or afraid to ask the question.

18:40And we need to have that permission of ourselves. We need that permission from others. It's so important to have that grace. So I have been reflecting a lot over the past couple of months of, you know, what does this mean? What are the implications of this for Black women in our work organizations? What do managers need to do to show that level of compassion? When a Black woman says, my plate is full right now. I'm so sorry. I can't get back to you on that. What does compassion look like? Yeah, it's tough. And I am very guilty of taking on projects and assignments, knowing I don't have the mental and physical bandwidth to do it for fear that if I say no, then you won't get another assignment.

19:29And so back to your point about what organizations can do, you know, they can really set clear expectations and there's no retribution if it's no right now. Validate that it's okay to be, to say no, but, but leaders and managers can say it's okay and give that grace and say, we will come back to you. You, you talk to me and let me know when, when, what is a good time, because we want to make sure that you have these opportunities as well. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a very difficult thing to do in the moment, because we can feel disappointment for ourselves, if we're not perhaps being where we feel we need to be.

20:10And there's also those that rely on us, even if we're not athletes and world leaders and women in the spotlight, we still represent so much to so many, because there's so few of us. There's so few of So people look to us for what we're doing. But the thing is, no one else knows how your career feels. No one else is going to be as invested in you as you need to be in yourself. And that doesn't mean that you can be on all the time. It means there's times when you have to pause and you have to recalibrate. Because it's what you've got. Like I said, it's a journey of a lifetime. We don't want to burn out and break.

20:48If we burn out and break, what comes next? What message are we sending to others? And we have to reframe those actions as not signs of weakness or flaws or shortcomings or, you know, for me, it's not wanting to prove the naysayers right. You know, this is, I think, been a real test in the past 18 months is, you know, reframing what powerful and strong looks like. And it's not about giving the naysayers evidence or proof that, oh, see, I told you so. I told you she couldn't handle it. I told you she wasn't good enough. I told you she. but rather saying this is strength. This is power, knowing who I am at my best, knowing how I can contribute in the most impactful ways and knowing what I need to do to care for myself and to live with integrity in order to do that work.

21:49You know, years ago, someone shared with me, because Laura, I was carrying a lot of what I'm going to say baggage, like things that were still niggling in the back of my head from years ago. and she said, one of my colleagues years ago said to me, so Ellen, how long are you going to continue to carry those rocks in your backpack? She's like, take out the rocks, let them go. And then to your point, we then become stronger because now I'm lighter weight. I can push further. I can push harder. I can better, I'm better taking care of myself. I need to hydrate along the way on that hike, but kind of let those things go and give myself permission to move forward lighter and easier.

22:33And I think, too, you know, when we think about organizations and those values and thinking about partnering with organizations where they allow me to say no, they allow me to take care of myself so that I can do that self-care, Octavia, that you often coach to as well. It's like, let's rethink that. And from my perspective, I have then challenged Harvard Business Publishing to step it up. And we need to collectively be better and support our Black employees, all of our employees, but take an extra look at our Black employees to making sure that we're doing right by them. We think if we're designing around Black women, then we're giving Black women special consideration.

23:21That's not the case. Actually, what we're doing is we're strengthening and improving the organization and the system for everyone. If it works for a Black woman, that is your bar, then it will work for everyone. Maybe one silver lining of everything that we've navigated is that insight about what it takes to lead and leading with empathy. and you know I've just written a book Prep Push Pivot and the final chapter is about paying it forward and you may not realize it Ellen but in checking in with me and the conversations that you're we were having you are paying it forward and while we we may be feeling depleted and we may be still figuring things out ourselves we we will be paying it forward for others through what we've navigated, through what we're learning, through what we're endeavoring to do.

24:20So, yeah, it's a powerful moment. It's a powerful moment. I really believe we will look back with a lot of perspective. Absolutely. So with that, I want to, again, thank you both so much for having this real talk, this super candid conversation. Let us all keep the conversations going amongst ourselves and with others, and continuing to challenge ourselves to pause and take break and take care of ourselves so that we can continue to be energized and help organizations and help others that look like us continue on with this great work. So thank you both. Thank you. Thank you.