Rolling Stone’s Jann Wenner on Cultivating Creative Talent | HBR IdeaCast

0:00This episode is brought to you by Palmolive. Family time isn't just the big moments. It's weeknight dinners, sitting around the table, everyone talking all at once. So when the plates are empty and the sink is full, use Palmolive Ultra. Palmolive's most powerful formula removes up to 99.9 % of grease, leaving your dishes sparkling clean. And the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier, so you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together. Shop now at palmolive.com. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications and more.

0:42Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs.

1:10Welcome to the HBR IdeaCast from Harvard Business Review. I'm Alison Beard.

1:21In 1967, my guest today and a few friends published the first issue of a new magazine.

1:32To be without a hope Like a complete unknown Like a Rolling Stone Rolling Stone changed music journalism because it covered rock and roll and other emerging genres seriously. It also shifted the way politics and social issues were covered in America and eventually abroad through its foreign editions, with embedded reporting and innovative writing on war, elections, drug use, and the environment. Its founding editor and publisher, Jan Wenner, spent five decades at its helm, cultivating an impressive crew of editors, designers, and photographers, from Hunter Thompson to Annie Leibovitz. He also featured and befriended some of the biggest names in music, from Bob Dylan, whose song you just heard, to The Beatles, Bruce Springsteen, and Bono.

2:25His new memoir chronicles that whole history, and you'll find more of our conversation in the November-December issue of HBR and soon on hbr.org. But for this interview, we're going to focus mainly on spotting and managing creative talent. Jan, it's great to have you on the show. Thank you very much.

2:50So first, let me ask you, why did you launch Rolling Stone? Well, I was a rock and roll fan and was not a very good guitar player. And I just wanted to be a part of it. I wanted to learn more about it. I got consumed by the music and how it affected me and the message I was getting from it. I just needed to be a part of what the Bloving Spoon call called the magic that will set you free. And I want to just clear it up for people who don't know. Did the name come from the old proverb, Bob Dylan, the Rolling Stones, all of the above? All of the above, but principally the Bob Dylan song. And how did you decide on it?

3:30We kicked through a bunch of different names that nothing really sounded quite right. I mean, remember, it was the sort of hippie psychedelic era. So we were trying for kind of quasi psychedelic names, like the groups had names like the different airplane or the Grateful Dead and sort of thinking of things like the electric tomato or the electric newspaper or something like that. And finally, Rolling Stone, it was a phrase and a song that sort of defined the times and kind of the things we were thinking about. And Ralph Gleason, my co-founding partner, wrote an essay for the American scholar called Like a Rolling Stone in which he laid out all the themes that we were going to explore in the magazine, the basic philosophical underpinning of the magazine that rock and roll was important.

4:11It carried serious social and political messages. It was a kind of a tribal telegraph, a glue that held the generation together. And how did you assemble your first group of editors and writers, the people who really launched the thing? Well, it was really me and some volunteers, whoever would work for free. It were very few people. It really was me and Ralph and And the other editor there was a guy named Monica Lydon, who was a Newsweek bureau chief who, at that time, could work part-time at midnight and was a friend of mine. And I think I got a college buddy, Jonathan Cotts, writing the first issue.

4:47And somebody had been reading in another fanzine called named John Landell to join me. But it was all it was just volunteers free for the first almost first year. And at that point, what was your ambition for it? Just to do something. This episode is brought to you by Palmolive. Family time isn't just the big moments. It's weeknight dinners, sitting around the table, everyone talking all at once. So when the plates are empty and the sink is full, use Palmolive Ultra. Palmolive's most powerful formula removes up to 99.9 % of grease, leaving your dishes sparkling clean. And the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier, so you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together.

5:27Shop now at palmolive.com. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Pretty serious about rock and roll. Something that reflected the changes that we saw.

6:03And we had no particular business plan of any kind. Didn't know anything about the business. I was 21. I had no idea whatsoever about magazine distribution or advertising sales or financial management or planning or forecasting or marketing. Zero. So how did you figure that out? How did you get readers? Well, you just learn on a job. We found a magazine distributor in San Francisco at the last minute. whose main business was selling yachting magazines and boat magazines. The distributor was sent out to cities around the country. We sent out 40 ,000 copies in boxes. We got like 35 ,000 of them back, unopened boxes.

6:41They were sent to distributors who never ordered them or didn't ask for them and just sent out blind. You know, a few stuck out there, and it got into a few people's hands, and we started getting letters back from people who had seen it and wanted to see more. You know, there was enough letters, like, I don't know, 20 or 30 letters to say, oh, I'll keep going. And how did you decide which musicians and bands to feature? Obviously, they were very famous musicians at the time, but particularly the up and coming ones. Like, how could you and your team predict what might resonate with people? Well, we didn't try.

7:16We just covered what we liked. We didn't think about what was up and coming and not. There was no thought. It was just what we like. and what we liked was John Lennon and Beals and John Lennon was on the first cover. We didn't cover what we didn't like. We only covered what was accessible to us. The implication of all your questions here is that it was some kind of methodology or premeditated intent or knowledge that went into all of this, none. It was completely on the fly, spontaneous, catch as catch can, serendipity, other random acts of chance and luck went into it. Yeah. And in the book, you describe some early growing pains, editorial differences of opinion, where you sort of had to step in and say, no, this is the direction I want this magazine to go.

8:04So talk to me a little bit about sort of that move toward a little bit more sort of hierarchy or methodology or a plan. Well, I mean, again, it was all intuitive. I had my instincts and my ideas about what the magazine should be and what it should stand for and what it should cover. You know, as I brought in other people to help with it, including by this time, people getting paid and had some professional experience, but still, again, you know, very low on the ladder, kind of people willing to work for, you know,$75 or$100 a week and, you know, quit some other job or not and have another job.

8:39You know, there were differences of opinion and they were, you know, passionately expressed. I mean, in those days, everybody was young, you know, in their early 20s. They were working for purposes that they believed in for not really for money. And if they disagreed with me, then they would leave. You know, I felt very strong about my vision. And my vision was that it was, you know, the culture and the messages that music carried in on the notions and thoughts of people like Bob Dylan, the Beals and the Stones. You know, they were expressing what the yearnings of this generation were. Yeah. And I will say that your descriptions of those sort of early working environments, there was a ton of drug use by yourself and others in the magazine.

9:27So how did you function both personally and as an organization during that time? You know, it seems sort of shocking in retrospect that Rolling Stone became such a success. Well, the drug use was off the premises. There wasn't a daily drug back at all by any means. It was the recreation of the time and that culture. It didn't really bother anybody or get in the way of anything. I mean, a lot of time was wasted in having fun. but it didn't interfere with any of our processes. But also...

10:26time together. Shop now at palmolive.com. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com slash podcast. That's indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. So, you know, the idea of having fun, of being happy, infused both what we did and what the message was, which was not a hedonistic have fun, but a life should be happy.

11:13Your work should also be fun. You should be gratified and fulfilled with your work. If you're really good at something, and you can do it well in a way that's gratifying and what you're putting out is helpful for people and helpful for society, then enjoy yourself. You also identified and worked with some of the greatest writers of the late 20th century, Hunter Thompson, Tom Wolfe, many others. First, how did you know that they were or would be great? How did you spot them? Well, they were great to begin with. I mean, I read a book of hunters about the Hell's Angels and thought he was terrific.

11:51And I looked him up and invited him to write for us. And he did. And right from the beginning, he was producing amazingly well-written and funny and precise stuff. Tom Wolfe, again, I was a reader and a fan of his when I was younger and in college and just out of college. He had already been writing for the New York Herald Tribune, New York Magazine. I looked him up and got him to write for us. And so I'd known of these writers. They went on to produce their best work at Rolling Stone for sure. And I offered them the kind of home and place and editing and space that they so wanted and so took advantage of and the kind of topics and freedom that really nurtured them.

12:35Yeah, distinctive voice seems to be, you know, something that you looked for, certainly identified and helped them honed. But they are sort of big creative egos, right? I think genius comes with that. So how did you pick their assignments, get them excited about it, get them focused, and then actually rein them in with editing when obviously they were some of the best in the world? Well, I mean, I think first off, my experience is the best talent is oftentimes the easiest to work with, certainly in the area of writers. They are disciplined. They have a vision. They know what they want to do. I think that part of what you have to do is find the right things for them to do.

13:19I mean, you need to help steer them where they're naturally inclined to go. So I would understand both with Tom and with Hunter, the kind of things that are interested in, the kind of things that spark their passion, the kind of topics that they could bring some of their insight to, and just encourage them along the way. I mean, I didn't tell them how to do anything. You have to let them do their own work. It's just monitoring it. It's like nudging it a little. You don't do big, abrupt moves. I mean, the big, abrupt move is to pick, oh, your assignment is going to be cover the election, say, for Hunter.

13:54With Tom, it was, you know, his territory was American culture, American society. And so I said, write a piece of fiction about New York. knowing New York was coming alive at that particular time when we commissioned Bonfire the Vanities. And it's the classic novel of New York at that time. It's insight, sympathy, tolerance, humor, inspiration, passion, patience. Yeah, I bet a lot of patience. So there weren't ever any sort of battles over cutting paragraphs or changing headlines or... No, no, no. Again, you know, you don't want to intrude on something you do. If you're good, like I was with Hunter, I could intuit what he was playing to do or where he was playing to go you didn't change much I mean the biggest issue with Hunter was that he was always writing on deadline and I knew how to edit or finish his stuff up when he didn't have the time to do it I knew where he was going and what he wanted to do Do you see because you followed so many musicians and their managers did you see parallels you know in how musicians were steered and focused in a way that made them more successful This episode is brought to you by Palmolive.

15:03Family time isn't just the big moments. It's weeknight dinners, sitting around the table, everyone talking all at once. So when the plates are empty and the sink is full, use Palmolive Ultra. Palmolive's most powerful formula removes up to 99.9 % of grease, leaving your dishes sparkling clean. And the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier, so you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together. Shop now at palmolive.com. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications and more.

15:43Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think probably one of my best gifts was being able to understand talent and how it behaves and how to bring the most out of it. I mean, I really do have a good understanding of what it takes to make a record and what goes into it and kind of the process. And I can understand how to manage creativity.

16:22And I think that was one of the most successful things I did, both with the artists that we covered and with the writers who worked for us. You were, you know, fairly chummy with all the big musicians and record label heads. You know, some might see that as a conflict of interest. How did you handle it, the fact that you were covering your friends? I mean, you have to make decisions according to your journalist instincts and your sense of news. And I mean, we never shrank from that, even when there were some, you know, strong conflicts and people didn't want us to write about things. But by and large, it was very easy because nobody expected anything different from us.

16:59I mean, we started small, we started independent. We grew up as not being part of that system. Artists did not expect us to give them favored record reviews or slant anything. I mean, our value to them and to the readers was that we were independent, that we had integrity and that nobody ever questioned that or acted in a way as if we weren't going to do what we intended to do, what we didn't feel was right. It was kind of the ground rules that we established with everybody and including people who became my very close friends. It rarely led to any difficulties because the people were artists.

17:34They were people making records, making music, making life better for people and for themselves. These people were not producing shoddy cars or digging up coal or running for office with real scrutiny and investigation. These were people making records. Right. As Rolling Stone grew and expanded internationally, how did you manage to sustain the sort of entrepreneurial rock and roll culture and make sure that it didn't become too corporate or bureaucratic? Well, first off, it was a smallish business. I mean, at our peak, I think we had 400 people or something like that. Secondly, I was always in charge and quite clearly so.

18:14I mean, I owned the joint so I could say what was going to happen, what was going to happen. thirdly there's a harmony of purpose among the staff not just the editors but the business people everybody felt a sense of common purpose so i had relatively little politics and bureaucracy to deal with having said that of course you can't tell everybody all the time what do you have to enlist people's enthusiasm you have to lobby for what you want you have to convince people to go along with it in the same manner you would run anything you don't you really have to be persuasive as well as commanding.

18:48It gets bureaucratic, but again, I was capable of making quick and fast decisions. Yeah. And then did you sort of, you know, you'd always been good at spotting writing talent. Were you also good at spotting managerial talent? Well, I kind of was weak at that. I mean, I was never looking for somebody to run it instead of me. I was always looking for people to manage it on my behalf. So I didn't quite let the reins go there. We had some really good, wonderful, hardworking people on the business side in various capacities for a long time. And also, I just wasn't interested in the rapid expansion of the business.

19:29So I guess I kept it in the limits of what I could tolerate rather than opening up and saying, okay, let me go find a bunch of really extraordinary, entrepreneurial, hardworking people to run it. How do you think your leadership style changed over time? You know, you started at 21 and then, you know, managed it, you know, into your late middle age. You know, I guess I grew up. I got a little less mercurial, more thoughtful, steady. I learned to delegate more. You know, the tip. This episode is brought to you by Palmolive. Family time isn't just the big moments. It's weeknight dinners, sitting around the table, everyone talking all at once.

20:10So when the plates are empty and the sink is full, use Palmolive Ultra. Palmolive's most powerful formula removes up to 99.9 % of grease, leaving your dishes sparkling clean. And the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier, so you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together. Shop now at palmolive.com. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes.

20:48Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. Well, things you do. I mean, I learned that, you know, once you start yelling at people, you've already lost your argument. I'll need to remember that with my teenage children. The same thing though. Yeah. Exactly the same thing. If you start yelling at teenagers, they've already got you. Yeah. It doesn't work there either. My manager said I was kind of trying to inspire people to do their best.

21:25On the other hand, it was very tough. I wanted people to do a good job and do their best job. And if they do that, I didn't care about the rest. I didn't care what the days they were working or hours or too much how they got about it. just do your best and be happy and enjoy yourself. Give me your best. That's what I demanded of people. If they weren't doing their best, they're lazy, then I would let them go. Yeah. From the beginning, the magazine made a point of covering politics very rigorously as much as music. Why did you make that decision? Well, I was raised in a political family. My parents were both active Democrats.

22:04So I grew up with politics. I love politics. And it just became a passion of mine. The other reason was that the whole initial concept of Rolling Stone was that music was a voice for social and political change. Let's also talk about environmental journalism. You know, you had a lot of coverage at Rolling Stone. There was a short-lived magazine called Earth Times. You found it outside. Why did you put such a priority on covering the environment and especially the climate crisis earlier than so many others? Well, again, I think it probably has to do with the sensitivities of a generation that grew up with the promise of the Declaration of Independence, of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

22:51And within that is this definite love of the natural world and nature and not despoiling the countryside around you, not exploiting all the stuff. That living cleanly on the earth is part of life, is part of your liberty, is part of the pursuit of happiness. A clean environment, a place to live that is safe. And we saw this in danger. 1970, I think, was the first Earth Day when we were three years old. And we were very aware of this. We were also on the West Coast, which was the home of a lot of conservation societies and the Sierra Club. But it became apparent this was our responsibility. It was part of our awareness, part of our cause, and it just came naturally.

23:36Yeah. So among your many accomplishments, you also started the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. In your view, what is the most important criteria for induction? Well, I think that it has to do with creating a body of work that's important and essential. It's influential, that is original, you know, a real excellence in what you do, a real originality, and that you make important, lasting music. I mean, it's an award for creative excellence. And again, were there any battles or concerns over that when you were part of the nominating committee or friends who got upset that they weren't inducted quick enough?

24:18Well, I know there are people who are upset that weren't inducted. Very few of them have expressed that to me. There were lots of battles because the people that are passionate about it, the critics, the music fans, everybody has their faith. I mean, after about for the first 10 or 15 years, it was very obvious who should get inducted. Then it's just differences of taste and opinion and and personal preference in what you grew up with and what you love. And every single person brought so much passion to it, you know? And many artists, there's obvious agreement on, you know, of course, Ray Charles, or of course this person belongs to that.

24:52But then, as the years went on, as the talent and the styles got more diverse, it became, you know... I'm not giving up. I am selling the building. The final season of FX is the bear. The restaurant is flooded. Everything's either going to be okay. Or not. We are outgunned and we are outmanned. We have each other. FX is the bear. The final season. All episodes now streaming on Disney+. Everybody again had those separate different passions. and the artists they were fans of. And so unanimity of choice got less and less. But again, the thing is everybody, it's just a matter of just passion, you know, different tastes.

25:47I mean, it's all legitimate. Yeah, and, you know, as music became more diverse, your tastes, as you said, sort of the founding group's tastes were, you know, squarely rock and roll. So, you know, how did you make sure that the magazine and then the Hall of Fame acknowledged other genres, country, rap, hip-hop? Well, as it got into more recent in the last 10 or 15 years, and it became more pop, especially hip-hop and, you know, other kinds of new forms of music, you just simply have to get younger people involved, you know, people who are more sympathetic and grew up with that music. I mean, really the people who are being inducted now are not people I really am that familiar with.