Sanofi’s CEO on How Company Culture Can Thrive in a Distributed, Hybrid World

0:00This episode is brought to you by Palmolive. Family time isn't just the big moments. It's weeknight dinners, sitting around the table, everyone talking all at once. So when the plates are empty and the sink is full, use Palmolive Ultra. Palmolive's most powerful formula removes up to 99.9 % of grease, leaving your dishes sparkling clean. And the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier, so you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together. Shop now at palmolive.com. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new.

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1:09Welcome to the new world of work. I'm Adi Ignatius, Editor-in-Chief of Harvard Business Review. And each week on this show, I sit down with a top-tier CEO to talk about how the workplace is changing. This is a reset moment for a lot of us. So we want to hear from people on the front line, people who are leading companies to hear about their experiments, what they're learning around the world to figure out how do we interact, how do we work together, how do we collaborate, how do we innovate as the workplace is changing. Before we go further, I want to give a shout out to our sponsor. Unisys is an IT company that builds business critical solutions trusted by demanding businesses and governments around the world.

1:52They partner with clients to enable cloud transformation, protect critical operations, and empower the modern workforce. Visit unisys.com to learn more. So our guest today is Paul Hudson, who's the CEO of Sanofi, the Paris-based pharmaceutical giant. He previously served as CEO of Novartis Pharmaceuticals, and before that held senior jobs in two other pharma companies, AstraZeneca and GlaxoSmithKline. I want to talk with Paul today about a couple of big topics, health safety in the workplace and what good leadership looks like in this new era. I also want to invite our viewers to pose their own questions for Paul in the chat box.

2:30I'll try to get to as many of those as I can later in the show. And lastly, we have a newsletter. If you're an HBR subscriber, head to hbr.org slash newsletters to sign up for the new world of work. An email newsletter will, I will offer an inside look each week at these interviews. so with that i want to welcome paul hudson to the show hey adi thank you for having me yeah it's great to have you one thing i didn't mention paul is a big manchester united fan luckily for paul i can't trash talk him because i do not know a thing about english soccer english football but man losing to liverpool and manchester city at home that's gotta hurt right well yeah that's a hard start that's not in any briefing document yeah it's a tough spell but i'm also an Eagles fan, so I know what it feels like.

3:18So hopefully as we get deeper into the season and put a few wins together, you never know, we might surprise everybody. Okay. All right. Well, we'll hold you to that. So let's start with, I want to talk about a lot of things today, but let's start with workplace safety, particularly since you're representing Sanofi. In the US, more and more companies are requiring vaccination as a condition for employment. for many workers, the deadline, are they going to get vaxxed or not, is fast approaching. I'd love to get your view on more broadly on what should a healthy officer environment look like now and going forward.

3:55It's an excellent question. A lot of people are really trying to answer that. We're a scientific organization. We're a healthcare company. We're a vaccine company. So for us, perhaps even more than many, we look critically at all of the data. And as we do that, we recommend and urge everybody in the company and outside the company too, friends, family and beyond, to just simply get vaccinated. It's the best route you can take. So we have been very encouraging right across our entire global organization. We recognize that guidance and laws and different things are slightly different depending on the country.

4:32But if you have the chance, get vaccinated. That makes for the very safest workplace possible. And that's exactly where we would start. And just for clarity, so that everyone understands where Sanofi is and all this, where do you stand now in terms of producing COVID vaccines with partners? Or, you know, where are you now with all that? Yeah, you know, we've been on this since January, even before. This episode is brought to you by Palmolive. Family time isn't just the big moments. It's weeknight dinners, sitting around the table, everyone talking all at once. So when the plates are empty and the sink is full, use Palmolive Ultra.

5:09Palmolive's most powerful formula removes up to 99.9 % of grease, leaving your dishes sparkling clean. And the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier, so you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together. Shop now at palmolive.com. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense?

5:45There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required, compatibility and availability varies 18+. The WHO declared a pandemic in January 2020, And we've been pushing really hard to bring a vaccine through. It'll be a booster, get data in December. We've been running an mRNA program, and we've been making up to half a billion doses for J &J, Moderna, and Pfizer-BioNTech. So we've been all in as a vaccine company, as a purpose-driven healthcare company. And to be honest, our people really haven't stopped since this thing started, and nor will they, in fact, until we're back to normal. And let me just push you a little bit more on this question of what does a safe, a healthy office environment look like?

6:34I mean, I suspect this may not be the last time that we talk about how to protect ourselves from things like COVID. I hope it's the last time. It may not be. You talked about the need for vaccination. But, you know, beyond that, what are we learning about what a healthy office is? What are the mandates that companies need to make? What do individuals need to do? What do teams need to do? You mean for literally health and safety or because we go beyond that, right, to resiliency and protecting our people mentally, which is an even bigger subject. You know, we're committed, like I said, to firstly get vaccinated.

7:15Secondly, take all the best precautions you can in an office environment. Once you get beyond that, you start looking at how to operate. And I think we all remember, you know, as we all switched to Zoom early on, we demonstrated we could, you know, we could operate remotely. But could we collaborate? Could we innovate? Now, we'll find out later whether, because our innovation cycles are long, whether we managed to do that. But the collaboration piece we missed. And that little bit of in the corridor between meetings, that little bit of water cooler serendipity. And it's not just for the opportunities that come with it.

7:50But let's be honest, it's also to take a moment to check in with each other. How are you doing? You look a bit tired. How are you doing? I know you should quiet in the meeting. You know, you don't set up a Zoom to debrief how somebody's feeling after a Zoom. Maybe we should. But I think what's really interesting for us is how we create those moments as people start coming back in the hybrid mode to be more empathetic, more understanding, more caring. We got glimpses into people's lives through Zoom. You know, the dog jumping on the desk, the child clamoring for a parent's attention. And we shouldn't just flip straight back.

8:28When we get into the hybrid, let's care just as much. I think it's going to be important for people's physical wellness, mental wellness, and to deliver on the growth agenda and strategies of our company and other companies too. So where are you in this? So you're in Paris. You're presumably at headquarters. Are you how many days a week are you having people come in? Can people choose what days they come in? I mean, yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, for me, during most of the pandemic, I moved to Paris in the summer of 19. And I remember saying to my family, I don't really need a home office because I'm going to be at the office and traveling.

9:04And then just a few months later, I'm working from the kitchen table and being told my voice is too loud and I'm in the way. and we were all there, three teenagers, slightly older, competing for Wi-Fi. It was not the easiest moment. So I started coming back a little bit earlier. We kept our offices open for people, some people in very small apartments who needed a bit of space to get out and come somewhere to go, so we did all that. But I'm back pretty much every day, but our expectation is people do two, three, four days, whatever feels right for them, their own circumstances. We just touched on the previous answer.

9:45I think you do have to create an environment where you can catch up with each other. 100 % remote doesn't give you a chance. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required. Compatibility and availability varies 18+.

10:19This episode is brought to you by Palmolive. Family time isn't just the big moments. It's weeknight dinners. Sitting around the table, everyone talking all at once. So when the plates are empty and the sink is full, use Palmolive Ultra. Palmolive's most powerful formula removes up to 99.9 % of grease, leaving your dishes sparkling clean. And the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier, so you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together. Shop now at palmolive.com. So we're going to learn, right? As of now, nobody really has the full picture, the full answer, but we feel good about where we're at.

10:58Yeah, I mean, I agree with you. I think those unplanned encounters are not only nurturing, but probably generate ideas and learning from one another. It's not always hard to convince people of that, though. I mean, it strikes people more as a kind of a belief or a bias. It's not demonstrable that if you're in the office, something beneficial will happen. Because we've seen that productivity is fine for knowledge workers working at home, maybe even on the rise. So, yeah, I'm not sure to be 100 percent because there are some roles that are much easier to help, you know, whether you're working in a very transactional role where your productivity is measured by, say, a ticket solved if you're on a help desk or something that has got a very definite proof point at the end of a day or a week or a month.

11:53I think in relationship-led industries, scientific-led industries, where that serendipity creates a lot in terms of a high-performing environment, a caring environment, scientifically innovative environment, you know, you can't take away that chance. You just can't do it. And I've heard what you've said before from other people, but it's funny. When people start coming back for the first time and you run into them in a corridor, they're literally lined up with enthusiasm because they haven't seen many people, different faces. They're now working with colleagues that they've never met in person before.

12:28It's really fascinating to see how quickly the energy comes back and, indeed, what that brings to them. So it's intangible. I'm with you. It's a little bit magical, too. Sorry. Yep. So you're a multinational, a very global company. Your headquarters is Paris, but I'm sure you're distributed all over the place. A lot of us are dealing with this question of, we used to think of culture as something that sort of happened in the office, happened at headquarters. But I'd love to hear you talk about, I guess, two things. One, having a distributed workforce, probably across countries, across languages, but then also now in a hybrid environment where sometimes you're there, sometimes you're not.

13:11What are you learning about, you know, what does it mean then? How do you drive culture? How do you sustain culture? How do you make sure it works for people in headquarters, people who aren't? You know, I think, you know, the remote worker maybe a year ago, two years ago, three years ago, was always on the periphery when they connected to a meeting and almost second class. I think we've proven that that is just simply not the case. I think we think the blend, the hybrid is the right way, but you can't exclude the remote person dialing into a meeting. So I think it puts a much higher burden on the people in the room and the technology and the tools that we have to make sure that people are included.

13:51So for me, for example, if I'm leading a meeting and it's a hybrid, I have to really listen to the people in the room, of course. I have to make sure that the microphones are good, the cameras are good. And I have to make sure that those that are remote get invited into that dialogue, you know, which means a slightly different operating model for anybody chairing a meeting, but a really essential one. because you can't create a two-tier. When you weren't there, you were remote. Not possible. So there's a very high expectation on all of us as managers and leaders to firstly make sure that everybody is included, however they connect in person or not.

14:26So to some extent, that's a technology challenge. And I'd be interested, what have you learned in terms of, I don't know, upgrades of technology or better uses of technology? You know, in my experience, Zoom meetings work quite well. In-person meetings work quite well. It's what you were just talking about, the kind of hybrid meeting that can really.

15:07make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required. Compatibility and availability varies 18+. This episode is brought to you by Palmolive. Family time isn't just the big moments. It's weeknight dinners. Sitting around the table, everyone talking all at once. So when the plates are empty and the sink is full, use Palmolive Ultra. Palmolive's most powerful formula removes up to 99.9 % of grease, leaving your dishes sparkling clean. And the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier, so you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together. Shop now at palmolive.com.

15:44Fall short either way, but I think they're technological solutions. We just have to figure out what they are. I think we're all upgrading our tech. If you're in the tech business, it's probably going to be a good windfall for you over the next year or two. Because, you know, what was passable is no longer acceptable. And we have to be much more inclusive. if you have to be able to really be able to read somebody's body language from a remote connection. And that's okay, right? But it's just a higher burden on it, and we have to solve it. Again, whoever's leading the meeting needs to be much more open and connected to do that.

16:17We're moving into a new office next year here in Paris. There are no offices. It's only collaboration space, and it will have the latest tech. We've gone to great lengths to make sure that whether you're in the room or outside the room, you'll get the same experience. And that's going to be the minimum standard now, right? That's the ticket. And we want people to be in our company that can manage that tech and care about the people that work for them, not two-tier. We talked a couple of weeks ago with Satya Nadella, who started talking about Microsoft's thoughts on the metaverse. Mark Zuckerberg has renamed Facebook meta and is talking about the metaverse, where we really sort of combine, I guess, physical and virtual worlds with artificial reality and virtual reality and holograms and whatever.

17:06Is that, are you looking at, you know, some companies are already experimenting with this. Are you looking at any kind of meta type solution to these issues? You know, I'd be over the tip of my skis if I said I was an expert in that. But I do know that I think when we have something viable, we'll all be moving to it much faster, particularly if it bridges the hybrid you can imagine a world where you're sort of seeing data representation real time represented whether you're remote or in the room exactly the same and you can explore it and move around it i think we're a little ways off frankly um i think if we just get it right on the hybrid up front we get people back people are enjoying being back physically they don't need to be here five days a week you know we're a company that's in a transformation of its own you know last time we spoke i was explaining to you that we'd We launched a new strategy, and then before we knew it, everybody was remote.

18:00And yet we've continued to advance our agenda. I think we've demonstrated as a company, but also many companies, that you can continue to move, even if you're trying to blend these new approaches. And it's not a bad thing. It's really not a bad thing. Once you get beyond the tragedy of the pandemic, there's some things that really must stay in how we work. And we're trying to be at the forefront of that. But I have to ask, this is you. this is not a hologram of you, right? For now, it's just me. So I'll take it. But I will be honest, there are days where three of me would have been useful. I'm not sure everybody would have enjoyed that.

18:36But it may have helped me a little bit. So I want to go back. You talked about how you're building a new headquarters, which is giving you a chance to quite literally design the future of work. And you mentioned already there won't be offices. Talk more about, I guess, what should future offices look like? I assume you're having conversations all the time and are actually planning it out. So talk more about how you think we'll come together and collaborate together in the future. Well, I think, you know, we learned this through the pandemic, I think, that you can operate remotely. We've demonstrated that.

19:13You can transact. You can do the things. But getting to – you need to create a space that people, A, want to go to. You're not coming to put your stuff in a cubby and then sit at your desk and only come out to talk to people when you need a coffee. We're trying to move to a model across the world, but it will take time where you go to collaborate. You overlap on days that are important where a cross-functional meeting could take place or a staff meeting could take place because we want the serendipity. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome?

19:50That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required, compatibility and availability varies 18+. This episode is brought to you by Palmolive. Family time isn't just the big moments. It's weeknight dinners. sitting around the table, everyone talking all at once. So when the plates are empty and the sink is full, use Palmolive Ultra.

20:24Palmolive's most powerful formula removes up to 99.9 % of grease, leaving your dishes sparkling clean. And the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier, so you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together. Shop now at palmolive.com. Now we know that people traditionally came in, let's say 9 to 5, 9 to 6, something like that maybe later now we recognize people will come a little bit less but may stay longer so how you what you offer in terms of places to linger to chat to bump into each other to be comfortable to have informal conversations those there's more pressure to have those spaces you know and rightly so the food and beverage offerings have to move to grazing all day and into the early evening.

21:12It has to take a wellness emphasis. I think we just recognize that you can't just, getting people to office to sit on their own is not the point. Getting people to be together to collaborate and innovate and to keep an eye on each other in a very positive way is a duty of care and is the future of work. So a lot of this strikes me as a growing attentiveness to what workers actually need. You know, instead of saying, these are the rules and follow them, or you can't work here. It's, all right, I'm listening to you, and we understand more about whatever it is, work-life balance or just things that workers need.

21:53So I want to then ask you, I mean, it does seem like workers are more empowered. I mean, certainly in the U.S., they have greater choice. and I guess I'd love your thoughts on how do you retain top talent now? How do you have a competitive advantage versus your competitors in terms of keeping top talent at your company? You know, I think you have to, you know, there's going to be the new blend. There's going to be a little bit between productivity, a little bit between engagement, a little bit between flexibility, you know, and this whole ideate, create. You know, there's a lot of buzzwords, but I think the truth is, and in particular for talent and talent earlier in their career, they expect a few things, right?

22:41They expect to tell you exactly what they think on any given day. They expect their manager to have a much higher degree of empathy and EQ than perhaps previously. I said earlier, we've glimpsed into people's lives and, you know, on Zoom, and we shouldn't go back to not caring. I worked with an amazing HR leader a few years ago, I do with one now actually, but years ago, who said to me once, she described herself in a big room, she introduced herself, and one of the words she used to describe herself was caring. And somebody said to her afterwards, you know, please don't use the word caring in this company, and that's not what we stand for.

23:19Now, that's not Sanofi, that's another company. But I think, you know, in the new world, it's a minimum expectation. You know, we may not be your family, literally, but we do care for you to be the best version of yourself and to want to dedicate precious years of your important of your career with us. It has to be a place where you can be the best version of yourself. It has to be where a boss that listens and understands if you're having a bad day or a great day, knows how to celebrate, knows how to help you if you're struggling. And particularly earlier, you know, with this whole data revolution, Adi, there are, you know, we're used to my generation.

23:58We grew up, we did most of the jobs on our way to hire roles in the company. So we sort of knew how to do everything. The younger talent now is digitally native, data literate. Their expectation of educating the tenured like me isn't passing it up the chain. Their expectation is to be in the room with us. We didn't do those jobs. They want to tell us how the world will look. And I'm sort of pleased, right? It's this cultural and company disruption. So we have to create an environment where we're empathetic, where we listen, where we care, where we let people who are the new sort of knowledge champions step forward and have their moments and excitement.

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25:18Reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with EpGliss. Before starting EpGliss, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. Paid partnership with Lilly. Respect your time. Ask your doctor about EpGliss and visit epgliss.com or call 1-800-LILLY-RX or 1-800-545-5979. I create new career paths. You know, this whole, the longer you're here, you know, the higher you go is pretty much gone. And I think it's good that we're going to see it all with fresh eyes. And the talent, it's asking for all of that.

25:56And it's asking to work in a purpose driven company. And it's saying, if I don't connect with why I'm here, and gifting you precious years of my career, then I'm not staying. So personally, I think it's refreshing. I love it. And our own company is benefiting and moving at high speed. But there'll be those that get that wrong, I think. Well, so what's your advice? I mean, the definition of effective leadership is it's kind of changing under our feet. And hopefully, it's all positive, progressive, leads to great things. But a pretty dramatic change from, I don't know, 10 years ago, what we sort of thought about leadership and the role of leaders vis-a-vis their teams.