Stable Leadership in Chaotic Times

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1:00Brené Brown:I felt like I had tapped into something that both gave me a sense of real stability, but also a springboard for some power that I needed to do what he was asking me to do. And so strong ground became my mantra, not just in the gym, but also before a hard meeting, before coaching with a CEO, before talking to my own coach. It was very much, okay, strong ground. Find your athletic stance, get grounded down in your values. not just for stability, but also for agility. And so I think right now, given the velocity, this pace of change, we need to find our ground.

1:51So I'm here with Brene Brown, a research professor at the University of Houston, a best-selling author and host of the Dare to Lead podcast. Her latest book is Strong Ground, The Lessons of Daring Leadership, The Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit. Brene, thank you for being on IdeaCast.

2:09Brené Brown:I'm excited to be with you. So we're in a moment that I guess I would call dynamic, and I don't mean in the necessarily positive sense, but where you have volatility, but also major shifts. And I feel like almost everything is up for grabs. A little bit like the 1960s, although very, very, very different. What does good leadership look like when the ground seems to be shifting so dramatically? Yeah, I think it's interesting. The word dynamic is interesting. I think what I'm feeling personally is massive instability and unpredictability. Even our ability to forecast in short increments of time has been completely disrupted.

2:56Brené Brown:And I think good leadership right now is about settling the ball. I'm going to jump right into a sports metaphor. Are you going with me? I mean, I'm good. I'm good with that. Yeah, I think it's about the metaphor I've been thinking about lately is a visual that I have of both my kids when they played soccer when they were five. And five-year-old soccer is a really fun thing to watch because balls come in really fast and hard at head height. And a kid sticks their foot up in the air and tries to kick it somewhere smart at head height. And invariably, it goes off the field. but I think that's what a lot of leaders are doing right now.

3:39Brené Brown:Balls are coming in hard and fast, unpredictably high. And instead of jumping up and catching the ball with their chest, dropping the ball to the ground, putting their foot on the ball to maintain possession, looking down the pitch, thinking strategically, anticipating where people are going to be based on training and skill. We're just making really fast, non-strategic decisions that sometimes are because we are in scarcity mode and we're not deploying the skills we have. And more often right now, I think it's we don't have the skills we need. So I think there's one other thing, which is that in periods of uncertainty, hyper uncertainty, there is a school of thought that you have to be decisive, right?

4:33Don't be a victim of this. You have to – so there's a bias toward action. So I feel like one of the paradoxes is that versus systems thinking is having this sort of comeback, right, where the counter advice is no. So, Senator, what you were saying, slow it down, think holistically about, you know, how a decision will affect whatever it is, the entire company, the entire organization. Low energy, unfocused, foggy, you might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body. With a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors.

5:15Great tasting hydration, no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade hydrates better than water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast.

5:52That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. So how are you seeing those two imperatives play out?

6:05Brené Brown:Well, as a big fan of systems theory, I love to see it's, I don't know that it ever went away, but I love to see the renaissance of the language and thinking about it. I think the foundational strategic thinking of everything we're doing right now has to be systems theory, how internal systems are impacted by what we're doing, how that bounces off external systems. In systems theory, we learn that in order for systems to operate, the boundaries of a system have to be permeable. So feedback flows in and out of systems bringing new information. We recalibrate, We send out information so there's a permeability around systems.

6:46Brené Brown:And whether that's biological or leadership systems, it doesn't matter. When we don't have those permeable boundaries and the walls around a system close, which you're seeing everywhere right now out of self-protection, what ends up happening is a system becomes self-referencing. So an example of this is a CEO feels a ton of pressure to develop and implement an AI strategy. But because of scarcity, the system walls, they're not taking time for feedback. They're not red teaming. They're not doing a premortem. They're not thinking through alignment of business strategy and technology strategy. They're not skilling up their people.

7:29Brené Brown:And so what ends up happening is that system becomes self-referencing. and in this climate, that's losing. On AI specifically, that report that we all read from MIT that said 95 % of AI projects do not have a positive ROI, whether that's the methodology was accurate, whether it was too soon or not too soon to do research like that, I've talked to a lot of people who are taking that to heart and are slowing things down, You know, applying more of a systems approach specifically to AI, we know it produces value, but just kind of getting the first thing we can out there is no longer the viable approach.

8:12Brené Brown:Yeah, it's one of the things that I seem to, in this book, be taking a lot of constructs and concepts that we use and adding an adjective to them. So, yes, urgency, but productive urgency. Yes, risk-taking, but strategic risk-taking. I feel like I'm using every, I'm taking like a battery of pause adjectives and adding it to everything that people are feeling. So yes, we need to be urgent, but unproductive urgency is always action over impact. And I think when you look at that MIT study, and yeah, people are asking very good questions about it, but it should not be ignored. And I'm a tech optimist.

9:00Brené Brown:What I'm not is optimistic about people's reflexive decision-making when they're in scarcity mode. So on the topic of authenticity, you know, whether we like that word or not, we've lived through this period where leaders were comfortable being, or many leaders, the best leaders were comfortable being outspoken about their values and values like sustainability, like diversity, like long-term thinking. Suddenly, in the U.S. at least, a lot of the CEOs who spoke that way now don't dare do so because these topics have become controversial. And in the context of kind of the authenticity or vulnerability that seems to produce the leadership we admire, are we seeing an absence of authentic leadership now in this suddenly highly politicized business moment?

9:57I think we're seeing fear. Low energy, unfocused, foggy. You might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero Powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body. With a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors. Great tasting hydration, no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade hydrates better than water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs.

10:35It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. I don't think a value that can be abandoned based on administration is a value.

11:12Brené Brown:It might be a marketing or branding idea, but a value that's abandoned based on who's in the White House is not really a core value. The expression of values may change over time, and they should. For example, there are a lot of companies right now who have integrity as a value, but when they operationalize that value, they've never contemplated data governance. They've never contemplated privacy. They've never contemplated authentic voice politically. And so I think it's a leader's job to be able to lead for impact around mission, regardless of the administration. They don't get a break there.

12:07Brené Brown:and it's also a leader's job not to value, not to abandon the values of the company. And so that is a very short term game in a long term world. Yeah, I like that. I wrote a piece along those lines, pitting Davos man versus Mar-a-Lago man and just said, this is a clarifying moment. You know, if you, if you really believe in these things, this is a moment to double down. If you don't, as you were saying, if it was just performative, maybe that's not a value and that's not who you are or who your company is. Yeah. And also don't, if it was performative and you're not finding a way to move forward in your integrity, then don't be shocked by the consumer backlash.

12:53Absolutely. So the book is called Strong Ground. And let's sort of give it, you know, listeners who haven't read it yet. You know, what is Strong Ground exactly? This is obviously it's a big book, but, but, you know, the short version, what is Strong Ground? And, and, and, you know, how did you decide that was the concept that you really wanted to identify to drive this book?

13:16Brené Brown:Starts with pickleball, of course. Of course. Yeah. A tennis player for 30 years. I scoffed at pickleball for two years and then it took me two games to start playing six days a week. I would do it, but I'm too young for pickleball. I got whipped up on yesterday pretty bad by a couple of 20-year-olds. So it has its moments for sure. I got injured, and when I went to a trainer, he told me I had no core, which was rude. But yeah, he actually had me take a test, and he's like, you scored a 10 out of 10. And I was like, of course I did. And he said, no, a 10 out of 22, sorry. And he said, your physical age is like 77.

14:04Brené Brown:I was like, oh my God. And he said, and you're - A perfect 10 out of 22. Yeah, exactly. And you don't have to be a researcher to be like, damn, that's bad. So he basically said I had a compensatory injury that I didn't have the big, strong muscles that I needed to do what I wanted to do on the court. So I was using inefficient muscle groups and I was getting hurt. And the more he talked, the more I thought about the leaders I work with. He said things like, we're going to go slow, we're going to be thoughtful, and we're not going to build on dysfunction. And so in a very serious moment where I was trying to find my lats, which I was confused I didn't have, he looked at me and he said, he called me Brown.

14:47Brené Brown:He was a very tough guy. He said, brown, find the ground. I said, what do you mean? He said, find the ground. So I looked down at the floor and he said, no, not the floor. Find your ground. Low energy, unfocused, foggy. You might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body with a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors. Great tasting hydration, no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade hydrates better than water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration.

15:26Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com slash podcast. That's indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.

15:59Brené Brown:Use your mind to connect with your body and feel the ground under your feet. And it took me a minute, but when I did it, I felt like I had tapped into something that both gave me a sense of real stability, but also a springboard for some power that I needed to do what he was asking me to do. And so strong ground became my mantra, not just in the gym, but also before a hard meeting, before coaching with the CEO. It was very much, okay, strong ground. Find your athletic stance, get grounded down in your values, not just for stability, but also for agility. And so I think right now, given the velocity, this pace of change, we need to find our ground.

16:52Both to provide stability.

16:57Brené Brown:I mean, here's the thing, Adi, we're not neurobiologically wired for what's happening right now. Our nervous systems, our brains hate uncertainty. it makes an action bias look like nothing. Right now we're just like, solve, solve, solve, solve. So I think the ground is that place. It's like if there's a chapter in the book on the tush-push, just the physics of the ground, I think is what we need right now. For our very global audience, we will explain that Tush Push is a play in the National Football League. But it's a play that involves kind of elaborate teamwork, right? And is inordinately successful.

17:45But anyway, I'm just...

17:46Brené Brown:It's very successful. And if you're not in the U.S. or not a fan of the National Football League, I can tell you that where it came from is scrum in rugby. So it's a bunch of folks creating force to move a ball by grounding into the turf and pushing together. And why I love it as a metaphor for leadership is it's almost hard to defend because our thinking is if we go over this mass of people creating force and moving, that's smart. But the lesson, Newtonian physics, is when you lose touch with the ground, your force is completely depleted. Because force is not just your body weight, but your body weight times pushing against the ground.

18:48Brené Brown:And so I think Newtonian physics is a really good leadership metaphor for what we need right now. a bunch of folks in an organization firmly planted in their values, very clear on mission, very clear on goals, pushing in the same direction and not becoming untethered. So we often ask leaders, what is it you want from HBR? What is the most valuable kind of content we can give you? And the answer is often we want to see examples of other people, of our competitors even, you know, it's some crucible moment or solving some problem. And people have said it's like watching game tape. Yeah. Right? That's kind of what they get out of it.

19:33So you have this phrase, you use this phrase, pocket presence for leaders, which I love that because it kind of gets at this hyper uncertain, hyper volatile moment, but how you have to execute. Talk about pocket presence.

19:49Brené Brown:Yeah, it's interesting because I came up during a period of time where there was a lot of focus on executive presence. And that's a real... Low energy, unfocused, foggy. You might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body. With a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors. Great tasting hydration no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade hydrates better than water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

20:29When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.

20:59Brené Brown:Really gauzy construct for me as a researcher. I don't, at its best, I don't understand exactly what it means. At its worst, I think it introduces a ton of bias into what do we think a leader should look like. In this very funny moment, I have to share that I texted Adam Grant. And we're really good friends. And I said, hey, okay, if I take down executive presence in the book? And I just got the three dots on the iPhone. And I was like, oh, uh-oh. You're in trouble. No, yeah, he's going to tell me don't do it. And he said, yes, absolutely. It's cover for discriminating against introverts and women.

21:40Brené Brown:And then two seconds later, and while you're at it, could you take down charisma as well? pocket presence is very observable and measurable and teachable. And it's a term out of, again, the National Football League. It's about a collective competency. A quarterback is said to have pocket presence in the National Football League or college football, high school football. When he gets the ball, the folks who protect him have about three seconds to protect him before like 1 ,500 pounds of defenders come crashing in. And can he, in a very short amount of time, make decisions about how to move the ball down the field, run it, pass it, hand it off, whatever it is.

22:25Brené Brown:And underneath this term is what I think we need today. One, anticipatory thinking. He doesn't throw the ball to where the receiver is. He reads the field and throws the ball to where the receiver is going to be. in a second or two seconds based on their training. Two, temporal awareness. We completely underestimate this skill set for leaders. Temporal awareness. The rumor has it that Brady, Tom Brady, the quarterback for the Patriots for many years, had an internal clock that was so precise, he knew exactly when to let go of the ball, and he could tell where the people were around him, protecting him by the shaking of the field through his feet.

23:16Brené Brown:I mean, this is temporal presence. Leaders need temporal presence. How much time do I really have here? How do I slow down my team without losing a sense of productive urgency? So anticipatory awareness, temporal awareness, and the third big one is, and this is, I think, a hard one, which is situational awareness. what system is my team sitting in within our organization, within the market, and within the geopolitical world? And how does that impact our decisions that we make every day? So I love pocket presence as a collective competency for teams. So, you know, part of this has to be pattern recognition, too.

24:02You know, you're doing it over and over again. So my favorite quarterback, I'm a Washington Commanders fan. So Jaden Daniels is, you know, he's a kid. He's in his second year and he is incredible. But one of the things that seems to differentiate him, right, differentiated skill is he basically uses a kind of a, you know, VR set sort of thing. So all day long, even when he's not on the field, he doesn't have anybody else to play with. He's basically experiencing everything you're describing where you have a couple seconds, 1 ,500 pounds of enemy is bearing down on you. And yet somehow you sort of see the whole field.

24:36And, you know, I'm interested, you know, how do you how do executives develop, you know, how do they get that kind of pattern recognition? You know, I mean, you got to learn on the job. You can't really do it pretend. But but, you know, how do they develop that skill?

24:52Brené Brown:The biggest chapter in the book and was the hardest chapter I've ever written in my career. And I've written I've written a lot of books and a lot of chapters. But was you want to know what quality sounds like? It sounds like a Ford Super Duty towing up to 40 ,000 pounds before the sun comes up. It sounds like a Ford Mustang doing what a Mustang does. Ford, J.D. Power's number one in initial quality among mainstream brands. Ready, set, board. When properly equipped, max towing varies based on cargo, vehicle configuration, accessories, and number of passengers. For J.D. Power 2026 U.S. initial quality study award information, visit jdpower.com slash awards.