The Ups and Downs of Being a First-Time Manager | Women at Work | Podcast

22:31Amy Bernstein:How could we remove the barriers? It doesn't actually have to be about you. And then in the moment, you know, you don't have to actually say, give me feedback to get feedback. You can see in the way people engage with their work. You can see it in the way that they engage with each other. and if you can read from their demeanor and the way they show up that they seem to be happy doing what they're doing, then something's going right. And you don't actually have to have someone come back to you and say, you know what, Greta, you are an awesome boss. You know, Tanya, I don't know where I'd be without you.

23:14Amy Bernstein:You can see it in the way they engage with their work and in the way the work is getting done. That's just one thought. It's sort of reading signals. They're indirect rather than direct. This episode is brought to you by Palmolive. Family time isn't just the big moments. It's weeknight dinners, sitting around the table, everyone talking all at once. So when the plates are empty and the sink is full, use Palmolive Ultra. Palmolive's most powerful formula removes up to 99.9 % of grease, leaving your dishes sparkling clean. and the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier so you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together.

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23:56Amy Bernstein:I do want to ask you guys a question. It's such a change to move from an individual contributor role to a management role. And Tanya, I wonder how you've experienced that shift and how that feels to you personally. Yeah, absolutely. So I think being an individual contributor, all you're thinking about is how do I get this done? And And really, you're just washing it off your hands and giving it to somebody else to take care of. But I think as a manager, you're getting that work for, I don't know, as many people as you manage. So for probably 20 or 30 people that I manage right now, that's what I'm getting.

24:31And then I'm trying to figure out how do I strategize this? What's my vision? You know, I take the work of 30 people, I put it together. But what does it really mean? So I think I'm trying to figure out personally what that transformation looks like. because I think maybe I should have a certain kind of managerial style where I try to be helpful, but also I switch hats and I become the manager. But that transformation is something that I struggle with because I also feel like I should be me and I shouldn't change who I am because I got this role because somebody must have thought I'm capable of doing it.

25:05So maybe that's a question to Greta and Maddy as well. How did you deal with that transformation? How did you mentally think differently when you became a manager.

25:15Amy Bernstein:Maddie, you want to take a swing? Sure. I certainly felt the same way as you, that I had to become like a manager when I became a manager and that it was going to be effectively, I had to find another side of my personality or something had to change. But then I did come to that realization that you were saying, Tanya, that, you know, I was, I was given this job based on who I am. And so it took a while and I'm still not totally comfortable with it. But I think I've started to just try and be more authentically myself. And it's tough because there are times when I'm like, oh, maybe if I'd been firmer about something where maybe I wasn't clear enough, and if I'd been more of a stereotypical male manager and just been very blunt or to the point, we may not have had delays or confusion.

26:01But I think that's just kind of something I have to take as a learning experience. And fundamentally, I can only be me. Right.

26:08Amy Bernstein:Well, have you ever heard of the double bind? Any of you? No. So the double bind is this trade-off that women in leadership roles have to deal with, where they have to balance the need to demonstrate competence with the need to be likable. There's a great article that we ran a few years ago called Women Rising, the Unseen Barriers. And I learned a lot from this article. But that double bind feels so real to me, where, you know, you said, Maddie, to manage like a man, which no one thinks ill of a guy for being firm and for stating his view and for moving along without being super, you know, collaborative and taking into account the views and feelings of everyone in the room.

26:56Amy Bernstein:And so I think when you think about this double bind, one of the things that the authors of this article recommend is that you settle on a purpose as a leader. Who do you want to be? I think that's something you said, both of you, Tanya and Maddie, and I would love to hear what you think of this, Greta, but who are you as a leader? How do you want to show up as a leader? That will help you navigate that double bind. Greta, how does that sound to you? Does that ring any bells? So many. And I read the article, and it was really shocking. So in my previous job, because of being a self-managed organization, a lot of self-reflection has to happen.

27:41And one of the important things that the person of people operations there taught me was find your own purpose. So after being in the company for like a year and a half, I spent a whole week self-reflecting and I asked for lots of feedback and somehow managed to get a purpose out of it. And that has been helping me to make decisions since then. And I think maybe I may not have struggled so much because I had that homework done before that I'm pretty amazed of how much return of investment I've got just from doing that exercise. So it was really nice to read about it and be like, oh yeah, it's actually, it seems like I did the right thing following this research.

28:32Terrific.

28:32Amy Bernstein:You know, I'd love to ask you, I wonder if any of you would be willing to share a managerial challenge that you're dealing with right now. And let's see if we can help you. Maddie, I saw you nod your head. Yeah, I have a couple, but I think the biggest one I'm trying to deal with at the moment is we're about to hit appraisal season. So I've been starting to have more structured discussions with my team about what we're going to be looking at in their appraisals. And I have a member of my team who is phenomenal. They are incredibly experienced. But they've been in this role for probably 18 to 20 years.

29:09And they have no desire to change role. And they don't really have any identified kind of development goals. If there's learning they want to do or if there's a different type of project. or if we're looking at coding stuff, if there's a new language they want to learn. And I find it quite difficult to understand that as someone who's always, I have like 93 courses on the go at any one time to stop myself from getting bored. But also in terms of how I'm going to do this appraisal, we always have to set development goals. And just trying to find something, I want to push them to develop, but I don't want to push them outside of their, like so far outside of their comfort zone that they, you know, don't thrive.

29:48I want them to continue doing this incredible work that they're producing.

29:52Amy Bernstein:Mm-hmm. But it's a tricky situation to try and balance. All right. How would you handle it, Tanya? Well, I think I would probably ask this person what it is that they want to do. Maybe this is not the situation that you're in, but I also have someone similar. But when I asked them what they want to do, they told me they were pretty content in their role and that they were not really looking for a challenge. So I think that helped me scale back and say, well, if they don't want more, then what is it that I can give them? What about you, Greta? So the way I see it is you can also just enjoy the slow journey with them.

30:34It's a little bit of like being by the side and And yeah, I see a little bit of like a journey companion type of thing, but I don't know if it works from my own experience.

30:46Amy Bernstein:I think it's such an interesting challenge, particularly if you are so focused on your own growth as a manager in this new role. But you have to remember that part of your job as a manager is to make sure you are setting up the people you're responsible for for success and that success takes place in organizational terms but also in very personal terms so understanding what this individual really wants you know I think you could have a conversation ahead of the appraisal Maddie where you say you know it's not a secret it's appraisal season but I'd love to know ahead of time what your ambition is?

31:29Amy Bernstein:Where do you want to be? So I can do well by you in this appraisal. In that spirit, I would have that conversation. You never want to have an appraisal that's a surprise to the person being appraised. The other thing is, if what the person says to you is, you know what, I am in the job that makes me happy. And I don't want to take on more responsibility, then you have to calibrate your feedback to that fact that this person is really happy and to something else that you pointed out, that this person really does a great job. You want this person to continue to do the great job and you are responsible for ensuring that this person enjoys doing that great job and wants to stick on this team.

32:18Amy Bernstein:So one thing I sometimes do in appraisals is I actually, I hope or people leader isn't listening, but sometimes I ignore the category on top of the box, you know, and sometimes I just ask in the appraisal, what would help you do your job better? And, you know, how do I set you up for the success you have in mind? Because frankly, you're doing a great job, and you're not looking for a promotion, and you're not looking for a change of responsibility. So what's missing for you and let's talk about that you know it's really calibrated to the individual because I know that this person is valuable and I want to make sure that this person is happy doing what this person is doing I hope that's helpful to you yeah definitely Tanya tell us about a challenge you're facing okay so as I mentioned I'm you know I became a manager about three months ago when I took over the role from my former manager that I still work with.

33:21I work with him on a daily basis. So obviously this person has been through pretty much everything that I'm going through on a daily basis. So I'm inclined to go ask for help and I get help every single time. What now happens is that because there's a lot of pressure to get things done right, managing a multimillion dollar project, any mistake you make can cost you a lot of money. So it comes down to the fact that sometimes I struggle with, well, well, when should I continue asking for advice or when should I not ask for advice and do this on my own? Because granted, the advice is going to be great, but then it kind of goes back to, is this really who I am?

34:00You know, like if my former manager would suggest, well, this is how I would deal with the situation and I don't agree with that, maybe I have the option of not doing that. But then I think, will I make a mistake by not listening to them? You know, if I do this my own way, is it going to come back and bite me? I struggle with when should I ask for advice, when should I not? And of course, somebody else's experience is my game. So if I can learn from them, that's the biggest learning that I can have too.

34:28Amy Bernstein:So it's when to ask for advice and when not, but also whether you have to take it once you've asked for it. Yeah. And they always say, find your own path, which makes sense. But then what does that really mean? Like, what is your path? Where are you going? All right, Maddy, your turn. How would you help Tanya? I think I certainly did this at the start of more maybe my project managing than people managing. And I would ask my former manager, you know, how would you deal with this? Have you dealt with things like this in the past? And he was actually the one who told me that the best thing for me to kind of start feeling more confident and to start taking more responsibility for my decisions was he wouldn't give me advice until I basically had to sit down and say, this is what I'm thinking.

35:16These are the pros I've identified. These are the cons and not what would you do, but have I missed anything? So it taught me that, you know, I can trust myself. I do know what I'm doing. and over time it meant that I would actually go to them less and less often for advice because I'd go oh well this isn't exactly the same situation as what I've dealt with before but last time we did this can I maybe you know shape what I'm thinking of doing now based on the decision I made before so being forced to kind of do all of the work myself and then just say what have what have I not considered is there like some blindingly obvious thing that I've just completely overlooked really helped me to start to not ask for advice but also just feel confident in saying you know what actually i don't agree with that i see it completely differently and the confidence

36:04Amy Bernstein:is such an important part of it but you know this question of whether you have to take advice that's where figuring out who you want to be as a leader and how you want to show up and what where your compass is, you know, if being kind is important, if showing your competence is important, if fairness is important, you set your own priorities and that will help you figure out whether or not to take the advice. Because if a piece of advice doesn't sit well with you, then you owe it to yourself to ask why and really examine that. And that means you have to engage emotionally and intellectually with who you want to be as a manager.

36:51Amy Bernstein:How about you, Greta? My question is, how does management get showcased as an individual contributor? I think it's fairly easy to do a cover letter, for example, or to ask for not necessarily a new job, but a grant or a scholarship and to list like all the deliverables. But because I think there's this confidentiality included in being a manager and often the challenges and the wins come from people improving or learning, you don't want to single out people and be like, I helped this person from being this to being that. And is it just by saying, oh, I have this many years of experience as a manager?

37:37For me, it feels like very little. It's not data-based, and maybe I'm a bit of a data junkie.

37:46Amy Bernstein:But you can show how the people for whom you are responsible have grown, have taken on new responsibilities, have accomplished whatever it is they've accomplished. I know you're not in charge of a task or a project. You oversee people. But I assume that it means that you oversee their growth and their engagement, showing that people haven't left under your management, that somehow your management has enhanced the reputation of your team internally, your organization externally. Does that seem feasible to you? it helps but then i have a another question which has to do with the speed right so delivering a task could be within a sprint of two weeks but delivering the growth of a person i don't think that happens in the sprint of two weeks so there is that lag i'm enjoying it i have a great time but maybe this is a misconception people don't understand actually how much energy and effort is put in that one person growing?

38:56Yeah.

38:58Amy Bernstein:So much of the challenge of people management is that it is very hard to measure. And that's why they have 360 degree feedback, for example. What are people saying about you, the people who come in contact with you? What do your direct reports say about you? But it's very hard to measure how well you've set up someone for success. And you have to be able to find a way to make that part of your job gratifying to yourself in some way. You know when it's not working. You see that indirect feedback. You can tell when people are unhappy. And, you know, people can be unhappy for a million reasons, only one of which is they're not happy with the way Greta's managing them, right?

39:43Amy Bernstein:I mean, it's just a constant engagement with the people you're responsible for. But I don't think what you're asking for is how you get credit. It's how do you measure success, right? Both. Both. Well, the getting credit, well, and also measuring success, there are tools out there that are designed for that. And it's not hard numbers stuff. It's mostly the soft feedback, the 360 degree feedback. It's looking at how stable your team is, how many of your team have gotten promoted, you know, how much more they're taking on, how engaged they seem if your organization measures engagement somehow. You know, if there's some kind of net promoter score exercise, they will look at your team, they will look at those scores by manager.

40:34Amy Bernstein:So that's one way that happens. Okay, so Amy, how would you quantify something like this on your resume? So I think what you and Greta just shared, that would very well apply for an internal sharing of achievements probably, but how do you put that on a resume? Say that I've been a manager for X years and I feel like as you grow up in your professional career, people's resumes start shrinking because there's just so much you do. And like, you know, I was updating my LinkedIn a few days ago and I was just like, I don't really know what I should put down anymore because I feel like I do everything, you know?

41:07So what do you put on your resume? I'm a people manager, but that could mean very many different things for anybody.

41:13Amy Bernstein:So this is more about the story you want your resume to tell. If it's a story about progress and learning and taking on more and more responsibility and delivering on your assignments and expanding your influence, that's how you frame it all, right? You have to figure out what story you want your resume to tell about you. and I've been a manager for 10 years. Okay. Did you get excited by that? I think I have taken on bigger and bigger teams, managing larger and larger budgets. And I'm sorry, Greta, this is about a project, but, and this project that I managed, we delivered it on time and under budget.

42:00Amy Bernstein:And the results were 20 million extra dollars to our bottom line or something like that. You can show the impact of your work that way. But can you put these numbers in your resume? I mean, does that sound too bold? It's not bold to state the facts. It's kind of self-defeating not to state the facts if they make your argument for you. There's a big difference between saying, I managed a million dollar budget on a project that exceeded all expectations and give the metrics. There's a big difference between saying that and saying, I am an awesome manager, trust me. Right? Right. Absolutely. This has been a great conversation.

42:49Amy Bernstein:You guys kind of knock me out with the level of self-awareness you've shown and your candor. And I really appreciate your willingness to be so honest with us in this conversation. For me, it's being so great to see other new managers going through similar issues. It's been really nice. And sharing them in a way that maybe it means more people slash women become managers, because I think it's exciting and challenging, but it's difficult to explain how it is that it's exciting and challenging. So it was good to get different points of view for it. Thank you, everyone. Well, here's to more women managers and more women managers like you.

43:36Amy Bernstein:Thank you. Thanks.

43:41What stood out to you in your conversation with them?

43:45Amy Bernstein:They were, each one of them, so thoughtful about being a manager and they took the responsibilities of management so seriously, even the couple who were kind of thrown into it. Yeah. Well, and you can imagine being in that role. I mean, I managed people early in my career, very briefly, thankfully. But I remember just thinking, I just don't want to mess it up. I wasn't thinking, how do I do this well? All the questions and thoughtfulness that they brought to the role, I was just like, please don't mess it up. Please don't mess it up. Well, we don't know that they weren't thinking about that. Yeah.

44:20Amy Bernstein:And everyone wants not to screw it up. But that kind of cautious approach guarantees you won't make a difference. Right. Right? Yes. It means you only show up in the negative when something goes wrong. Yeah. I heard this quote in a podcast. It was about leadership. But you have to be brave today to be confident tomorrow. And I do feel like with managing, you do have to sort of put yourself out there in a way that you're really uncomfortable. You could hear in Tanya and Maddie and Greta's voices. the discomfort of trying to figure this out. Yeah. Well, you're constantly putting yourself out there, and it's a very vulnerable place to be if you want to make a difference.

45:03Amy Bernstein:And if the difference you want to make is in helping people get where they want to go and helping the organization succeed and just helping people feel really proud of what they're working on with you. It's very uncomfortable, but you also develop a thick skin, and the discomfort stops being so discomforting. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. I will say one thing that surprised me about the conversation is that none of the women mentioned conflict or negotiation. Granted, I'm conflict obsessed. But I was surprised that none of them found that to be an unexpected part of the job, right? Having to give negative feedback.

45:41It's constant diplomacy, negotiating what one person needs versus another person needs, telling someone they can't have something, setting boundaries, right? All of that. constantly asking yourself what's a win here right right yeah but none of them named that as a skill i was a little bit surprised by that yeah i have no idea why i'm i'm sure if we did the

46:03Amy Bernstein:dealing with conflict as a new manager episode right we'd have five hours yeah yeah to air our colleague nikki who who's been on our show before she manages here at hbr but she's managed in previous jobs and she's told me that and again i'm conflict obsessed but she's told me that was the most surprising thing about becoming a manager was just the number of difficult conversations you have to have on a daily basis. Yeah, and learning how to become a soft target, if you know what I mean. No, what do you mean? What I mean is when someone comes at you with, and I had this happen in my first couple of weeks as a manager, it was someone who at the same time as I was promoted into the management role and inherited this person, he was taken off of a column that he had written every week.

46:55Amy Bernstein:This was not my doing, but it was apparently my fault. I cannot believe that you take over this job and you relieve me of my responsibilities. And I couldn't point a finger and say, hey, I had nothing to do with this. I knew that. Right. But what I had to figure out was how to move from wanting to defend myself to helping this person deal with the pain and disappointment of losing a column. Right. Right? Yeah. Not sure I was even remotely successful, but making that shift was important. Right. It's a lot about managing your ego, I think. Because I would have been like, well, that's not my fault.

47:39Not my fault.

47:40Amy Bernstein:It's not my fault that you lost the job. You should have written better columns. Yeah, exactly. You know, they were a little boring. Yeah, you can't go there because that's really not the point. You really spend a lot of time asking yourself, what's really going on here? And I love that. What's a win? That's a great question to come back to. That's our show. I'm Amy Bernstein. I'm Amy Gallo. If you're looking to hear more from us about making the transition into management, particularly the identity piece, Listen to our season four episode, Seeing Ourselves as Leaders. HBR has published a ton of material on this subject and will include in the show notes a list of classic articles and books.

48:22Amy Bernstein:And if you want to go deeper on a variety of management topics and create a plan to practice what you've learned, check out Harvard Manage Mentor. It's an online self-directed learning and skill building resource. Visit hbr.org slash Harvard Manage Mentor to see all the different skills the program can help you build. Also, HBR has more podcasts to help you manage yourself, your team, and your organization. Find them at hbr.org slash podcasts. Or search HBR in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Women at Work's editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoke, Tina Tobey-Mack, Rob Eckhart, Erica Truxler, Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates.

49:08Robin Moore composed this theme music. Thanks for listening. Email us anytime at womenatwork at hbr.org.