Tsedal Neeley on Why We Need to Think of the Office as a Tool, with Very Specific Uses

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0:59Welcome to Harvard Business Review's The New World of Work. I'm Adi Ignatius, Editor-in-Chief of HBR. And as you know, each week on this show, we talk to somebody smart about how we are going to figure out how we're going to work together in the future. So we've had some great conversations all season. I'm going to introduce our guest in a second, but first I want to read a word from our friends at Unisys, our sponsor. Unisys is an IT company that builds critical solutions trusted by demanding businesses and governments around the world. They partner with clients to enable cloud transformation, protect critical operations, and empower the modern workforce.

1:37Visit unisys.com to learn more. So I announced last week that our guest on this show would be the CEO of UPS, Carol Tomei. She has had an unavoidable conflict, so she's not able to join us this week. I hope we can get her on for a future week. But we have an amazing replacement. I'm really happy about that. Tzadal Neely is going to be our guest today. Tzadal is an HBS professor who specializes in how companies can scale and how they can go global and how they can pursue a digital transformation. She published a very timely book last year called Remote Work Revolution, Succeeding from Anywhere.

2:16And she is the co-author of the forthcoming book, The Digital Mindset, which, full disclosure, will be published by Harvard Business Review Press this spring. She is one of the most interesting voices on the topic of the new world of work. So, Tzadal, welcome. Thank you so much for having me, Addy. I'm thrilled to be with you. Well, I love our conversations about all these topics, and I can't think of anyone who's better positioned than you to talk about all these aspects of the future of work. Thank you. Thank you. So let's start, let's jump in with the topic that we're all trying to figure out, and that's the great resignation or the great reshuffle, whatever you want to call it.

2:57We're all feeling the impact, and maybe I'll just throw that topic out to you. I mean, how is all of this affecting the way we work, and how is it likely to affect us going forward? You know, it's interesting because the great resignation captures the great recognition that people have had, that they want more from their work. They want better work arrangements. They want better wages and salaries. They want better managers. If you're a mediocre or poor manager, watch out. People are leaving. So, you know, we're in the middle of a global cataclysmic pandemic that is continuing. I mean, we're on our way to two full years of this.

3:42And so people are looking at their lives and their priorities, and they've experienced different ways of working. So the great resignation is, as a marketing, a former marketing manager put it, is a great repudiation of the work, suboptimal work arrangements. And so companies are being forced to be better as cultures, as places for people to go to. That's what the great resignation is about. So implicit in that is that power has shifted in some ways from the employer to the worker. You know, is that a temporary phenomenon linked to the pandemic and linked to this moment in time and, you know, in the way we've handled the economy and incentives?

4:29or do you think everything has kind of changed permanently? I actually think that the pendulum does swing over time and we don't know how long this will last, but you are so right that we're both seeing the fear.

5:00When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It's just labor market of our lifetime and employees making demands in terms of how they want to work, where they want to work.

5:40So they do hold the power today. By the way, after World War I, after World War II, you saw similar worker unrest. People begin to introspect and ask for more. This one is very different. It's extremely global. And of course, with the presence of social media and other fast reaching mechanisms, it's spreading very quickly. So workers, I truly believe, do have the power. We don't know for how long. But in order for companies to be able to deliver on their products and services and even their growth goals, they have to think very deeply about what to do. We saw, Adi, how many in the banking industry started to pivot from this is an aberration, we'll never change.

6:32We want butts in seats in the offices to actually we're postponing yet again. So we're seeing a shift, a major shift, even from those who've resisted the most. So if you just joined us, if you're watching this, this is HBR's The New World of Work. My guest is Tadal Neely. If you have questions for Tadal, put them in the comment box. I'll try to get to as many as I can later. So let's stick on this topic of talent. You know, you mentioned that after the war, that was another period where workers had relative power. Or, you know, back then we were probably still thinking of management as a kind of top-down exercise.

7:12We're in a different place where we've sort of defined good management or we think successful management means being empathetic and, you know, taking stakeholders' perspective, including your employees' perspective, far more seriously. So my question for you is, to what extent should employees have a voice, have agency, be able to decide how they work, when they work, where they work? I actually think it's something that needs to be co-created. Employees on their own can't have full agency, but they can have some by articulating what are their preferences and interests. So I've had a chance to work with so many companies in the last couple of years.

7:53And so the first thing that companies have been doing, and rightly so, is surveying their workforce to truly understand. And you have to do this anonymously, by the way, because you don't want people to tell you what you want to hear. You want to know the truth and understanding what people's preferences are. And it has to be balanced with the work of the organization. What do we need to do really well? How do we need to make sure we're serving our stakeholders? And once you understand that, you have to come up with a policy that works both for the work as well as employees. So the agency can truly come when it comes to work arrangements.

8:39Whenever you look at surveys across companies, across industries around work arrangements, and I love the title of the series, The New World of Work, it is consistently this way. You have about 15 to 20 percent who want to be in the office. They want in-person work, and we need to make sure we're paying attention to this. Young people, people who are early in their careers, want to understand how things function, so they want to be in the office. You have about 30 % who often want remote only work. And this is typically aligned with certain demographic groups, but remote only and remote first is the manner that they want to move forward with.

9:29And then Propel Fitness Water with Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar and vitamins. Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade Electrolytes. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast.

10:07That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. You have all the rest who want hybrid work, which is kind of the mix between the in-person and the remote. And so the question is, what will you do in your organization to be able to accommodate some of these preferences and even open for talent purposes, looking outside of your typical spaces or even localities can get you excellent talent in ways that you haven't discovered, diverse talent in the U.S., global talent outside of your country. So you have to, in a way, rethink, reset the way that you've attracted talent and retained.

11:00So we used to think that the key to building a culture was physical interaction. And it wasn't just the planned meetings interactions, but those serendipitous unplanned meetings that created sparks. And, you know, none of that is provable. All of that is plausible. We certainly believed in it, and many of us still do. Where do you come down? I mean, there isn't data exactly to prove or disprove, but you've been studying truly global companies that don't have a single headquarters and have many, many people who are working remotely. And yet, I'm sure they would say there is a culture, there is a defining ethos and esprit and all that.

11:50So help us out a little bit. For those of us who think it's either everybody in the office or somehow we've lost the magic, help us out. There's obviously a middle ground. Yes. what you will hear over and over again is that some kind of in-person interaction with the serendipitous, or some people call it the water cooler conversation, or the cappuccino conversation, or the tea kettle conversation, is a way in which to build connection, to build relationships, and to advance work goals. But the reality that this pandemic has uncovered for many people is that the in-person culture is not a panacea.

12:34When you look at the Future Forum's data, this is Slack's think tank. And looking at Black and brown professionals, the in-person culture was actually very difficult, that in fact, inclusion was a problem. The sense of belonging was a problem for many people that remote work has kind of shifted and changed because people were taking these psychological commutes in order to be able to fit into their organizations. So one, the in-person is not always a panacea and it's not always working for everyone. It's really important to understand. But on the other hand, when you have these micro in-person moments with people, it is true that you have the opportunity to deepen your relationship.

13:26And in the end, it shapes work. So when you're in this remote environment, it all happens very differently. When you're in a hybrid environment, it all happens differently. My position has always been, after about 20 years, immersed in virtual work, global work, remote work, is that these things happen differently, and we need to learn how to do them. So the serendipitous, you can't get it in a remote environment, but you have to create it. I call this structuring unstructured time, for example. So we need to be awesome when we're in person. We need to be awesome when we're remote. We need to be awesome when we're in hybrid mode.

14:11So we have to be multimodal workers. Propel Fitness Water with Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar and vitamins. Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade Electrolytes. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast.

14:53That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. This is what our new reality is about. It's not this or that. It's all of it and well. Does that make sense to you? It makes total sense. I mean, basically, we need to be we need to take it all seriously and need to be awesome. and every expression of interaction and be very purposeful about what we're doing in these various environments. Are there examples of companies, particularly over the last couple of years, but not necessarily limited to that, who you think are getting the hybrid experience right?

15:33There are. And it's interesting what you learn from the companies that are doing it well. And I will tell you, people will say all or nothing is easy. in between or hybrid is the toughest one. So we have to acknowledge that it will require work, it will require a culture change. So what have we learned? One thing that we've learned is you have to get the technology right. I'm sure there are people on this watching and listening to us today who've been on hybrid calls where you could barely see the people in the room, you could barely hear what's going on. You feel a bit disconnected because the technology is suboptimal.

16:16If we want hybrid, we've got to start there first, and we need to invest in the right technologies to capture people, and then we have to make sure that we have the right practices. So for example, a best practice for a hybrid meeting is that everyone shows up with their laptops, and they open their laptops so that people can see all the chats that are coming in and they can see you, you can see them, people feel more connected as opposed to being set aside on a screen somewhere. The other best practice is you have to make sure that you articulate the rules of engagement in these conversations.

16:58How will we communicate and how will we make sure that everyone has a chance to contribute to a conversation. So you have to explicitly have these conversations. And then, of course, managers and leaders who are running this meeting, they need to make sure that everyone gets to participate and not the dominant people or the people that are in the room. Everyone needs to be able to come in. So you need the tool sets, you need the skill sets, and you need the mindsets for these to work really well. And some companies are far ahead in this area because they embraced it long ago. You know, the other thing that we're seeing is many companies, many organizations, many groups are kind of in this wait and see mode.

17:41We'll wait till this thing goes away and we'll go back to normal. When you do that, you never prepare and you never develop the skills necessary to do this well. And the implicit is that we're not going back to the old normal. I don't think we're going back to the old normal. Work has been disrupted. Workers have been saying that they've changed and they've experienced a completely different way of operating. And productivity has not only remained high, but it's gone up for many, many organizations. So I think we need to accept the fact that the world's turned upside down and introduced a different way of working.

18:24And if we don't embrace and accept and adapt, we're going to be not only behind today, but you mentioned our upcoming book, The Digital Mindset. But we are right around the corner from an even bigger disruption to work where data and technology and other things will completely change how we operate. So if we think that it's about in-person versus not, I don't think we completely get the fundamental shift that's taking place, not only in work, but how work is unfolding.

19:06better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade Electrolytes. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com slash podcast. That's indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply.

19:42Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. And soon we're going to have data and other technological devices and mechanisms that will further change work. So doing some adaptation today is actually preparing us for what's down the road in the next three to five years. Yeah, that's well said. So I'm going to start turning to some audience questions right now, and there are a lot of good ones that are coming in. This is from Trione from Ontario, Canada, who's asking about the question of employee engagement. And you've touched on this some, but, you know, what are the best companies doing to keep, you know, a staff that previously was in office but is now remote, to keep them engaged?

20:29And how are they connecting with employees who were maybe hired during this pandemic period and haven't even physically met their employees in person? So what's the best way to make that happen? That's such a great question. Employee engagement is actually, when I talk to companies next to worrying about our culture, our culture, what about our culture? Employee engagement is probably right there as what people worry about. So we have to make sure that we decouple the notion that employee engagement only happens when we're in person. That is absolutely not true. Employee engagement is about having a great manager who's creating the conditions for people to develop cohesion as groups and work.

21:24So you need the frequency of contact. You need the informal contact, like the virtual experiences with others that are important. You need to make sure that people have terrific jobs that they're proud of, that they're connecting to, including higher purposes. The point that you make, though, Adi, and the numbers that I'm seeing across the board is about 20%, 18 % to 20 % of new employees in many companies, especially large companies, have been hired in the last couple of years in the middle of this pandemic with very little in-person contact. I call these people remote natives. So remote natives need not only to be engaged, but they need to be onboarded really well.

22:16And so this is where leaders, managers, human capital leaders and organizations have to ensure that remote natives have the opportunity to develop relationships with people. They can't walk around, so you've got to give them a list. You have to make sure that you're onboarding by giving people onboarding buddies so that they're never alone, so that in the end, they can do work but also feel like they have a real grasp of the context. And you have to create that very deliberately. It won't happen otherwise. So let's say 10 years from now, if we're looking back on this period in the workplace, are we going to say, yeah, we had no idea what we were doing and we're just sort of stumbling along?

23:09Or do you think we'll say, yeah, that was the moment where we really began to figure out the new paradigm for collaborating effectively together? 10 years from now, I think that we will have two groups. One group will be the group where people have adapted. They have looked around. They've understood that they have to be more digital, that they have to develop new skills to connect and to work, that they have to understand that they need to develop a little bit of technical skills in order to participate in a digital economy that's only been accelerated by this pandemic. The other group, those who will lag behind, will be dragged.

24:02Hopefully, some will be dragged and survive. But I am worried that those who are not adapting will actually lose or even disappear. I'll give you an example, Adi. If I look at the last couple of years, and I've been doing this, and look at the companies and the organizations that have been thriving compared to those who've not, some that even have died, you see that the companies that have adapted have been experimenting with technology, experimenting with e-commerce, changing their narrative, changing their business model, being very flexible in terms of how they're building their workforce and really infusing the digital mindset throughout their organization.

24:53Those who haven't, you've seen the narrative of their top CEOs around, this is an insurmountable thing. This is too difficult for us. They've been struggling with digital and technology, and you can see them falling behind or even going bankrupt. So I think 10 years from now, either you adapt or you die. That's great. I feel like we should just linger on that. And I shouldn't have cut in, but that's intense. That takes a question. And I'm going to ask a question from this is from Victor from Rhode Island in the U.S., which is an interesting follow to what you just said. And that is, what are the implications then for higher education institutions, and I would include business schools here, as we prepare students for this new reality?

25:45I think the implication is that we need to make sure that we are helping people meet the moment. Remote learning, for example, is just an example of the type of learning that's going to move forward, synchronous, asynchronous. synchronous. There's no room to resist. We're also going to be in a space where we're going to see scale in ways that we never have before. So the use of video, the use of all sorts of technologies, synchronous and asynchronous, the reach is going to be large. So for students, unless people become multimodal in the way that I described, the in-person, the remote, the hybrid, not saying, I love this, I hate this, this and that.

26:33Be fabulous in all of them and learn how to connect with people and work well with people and advance your goals with people, whether you're in-person, hybrid or remote, because ultimately we are going to see the scaling of education and more and more people will participate in this development that I'm discussing. And either we're awesome or we're going to be left behind. This is what I truly believe. So in everything you're saying, you're talking about how we work remotely more effectively, how we do hybrid more effectively, but you're not saying that we get rid of the office. So let's talk about the office.

27:14And there's a question from Daniel from Toronto. You have a lot of fans in Canada, clearly. What role should the office play today? And I guess to expound on that, what have we learned in particular in the last couple of years? how do we make the office experience the best it can be for when we're in the office? I love that. Yes, I think the office is very important. But if we think about what we've learned from the early experiments with hybrid work and remote work with Cisco in 1993, later on Sun Microsystems in 97, acquired by Oracle, IBM, and others, they've been experimenting with hybrid work and remote work for a very, very long time.

27:56And you do see a massive shrinkage in their real estate over time. In fact, Sun Microsystem saved half a billion dollars in 10 years. So we should expect that office spaces might get smaller and offices are tools. We need to think of offices as tools as we would any digital tools that enable us to do remote work. And if we think of offices as tools, we think of them as tools for collaboration purposes and innovation purposes. We go there when we're about to do some ideation or some creative work, not just to do the things that we would do normally from home. So to go into the office to stare at a screen all day the way that you would at home is not helpful.

28:47In fact, people resent that. So offices for connecting with one another, for innovative work during certain phases, for onboarding people. You want people to come in more when you're onboarding them, if that's possible. So to treat the office as a tool and not a destination is a mindset shift that's going to be really helpful in attracting, retaining, and using the space in a way that's productive for all. So I like the idea that we should be purposeful about what the office is for. What do you think about the regularity of being in the office? Should we all be in one or two days a week together?