What It Means to Be a Conscientious Leader

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1:09Welcome to Harvard Business Reviews, the new world of work. I'm Adi Ignatius, Editor-in-Chief of HBR. I just learned that that little guitar riff is also used by Axios for its live shows. So I feel like we're in good company. So each week on this show, I interview a CEO, a thought leader, somebody else to inspire and educate us on the changing dynamics of the workplace. Our viewers come from all over the world and they work at everything from Fortune 500 companies to fledgling startups, from family businesses to nonprofits. The aim of the show is to provide insights for everyone as they navigate this transitional moment in how we organize ourselves in the business world.

1:44On today's episode, we have another great guest, Dub Seidman, founder and chairman of the Howe Institute for Society. So I'll come back in a moment for a proper introduction. But first, let's hear from our good friends at KPMG, sponsors for this season of The New World of Work. At KPMG, it's our people who make the difference for our clients. Talented teams leveraging the right technology to uncover insights that illuminate opportunity. Ready to make the difference together?

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2:54So let's get on with it. My guest today, again, is Dov Seidman. He's the founder and chairman of the Howe Institute for Society, which is a U.S.-based nonprofit that aims to elevate humanity by nurturing a culture of moral leadership, values-based behavior and principled decision-making. He's the author of the book, How, Why How We Do Anything Means Everything. So we're going to talk today mostly about what good leadership looks like these days. Dov, welcome.

3:22Dov Seidman:Thank you, Adi. You and I have been in a very long and meaningful conversation about the workplace and leadership, and it's nice to reconnect on your show. Yeah, no, absolutely. And I love those conversations and I love everything you think about. You think deep thoughts and let's try to bring some of those out now. So let's dive right in. So let me ask that you think a lot about the moral aspects of leadership. So let's dive right in. What does good leadership look like these days in this era that feels like one of perpetual disruption? Yeah. So, I mean, the first thing good leaders do is they step back and try to make sense of the world in which they're leading.

4:05Dov Seidman:Leadership is not about headlines. We can all read those tweet to tweet, post to post. It's about trend lines. Where is the world going? What are the forces, familiar and unfamiliar, that are reshaping it? What framework are we going to use to pass judgment on the future? And what playbook are we going to use to enlist people on a journey to that future? And I'm also fond of saying that smooth seas have never created a great mariner, and the seas out there are not smooth. So if you're going to be a great leader, sailing the rough seas is part of it. So Adi, what I thought I would do is first just say that leadership has always mattered.

4:44Dov Seidman:It's always been consequential. we're going to get into some examples of how leadership perhaps is more consequential than before because it reverberates but we're leading at a time where everything has been disrupted this episode is brought to you by google chrome you think you know a browser but gemini and chrome that's new it can help you with practically anything on the web like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks gemini and chrome is here for it ready to make anything online make Make sense? There's no place like Chrome.

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5:52Including leadership and authority itself.

5:55Dov Seidman:What it means to be in charge of an organization or a team or of somebody else is not what it used to be. And what I'd like to do, Adi, if it makes sense, is just frame what I think is the greatest 21st century leadership challenge. And then we can talk about what kind of leadership responds to it. Is that okay, Adi? Yeah, that sounds great. Okay. I think your viewers and you would all agree that you cannot run a company, a team, a country without formal authority. People need to be in charge. I can't imagine a football team without a head coach, a school without a principal, a company without a CEO, or a country without a president or a prime minister.

6:35Dov Seidman:But we all know that organizations of human beings really work, and societies, when individuals with moral authority occupy these positions of formal authority. And in the less transparent, more opaque world, we often conflated the two. He must be a great man, or how did he get that high, or the board wouldn't put him there unless he was a great leader. But now we're seeing that formal authority could be seized. You could win it in an election. Somebody else could bestow it upon you. I hereby appoint you vice president. But moral authority is really a function of who you are, the values you embody, how you lead, how you make decisions, and how you relate to others.

7:14Dov Seidman:So the challenge before us, now that in this era of disruption, we're seeing that formal authority has been disrupted. Silicon Valley entrepreneurs, even with 20 to one super majority shares, are not hanging on to their jobs if they're not leading in an enlightened way, or even worse, there's some misconduct. And we're seeing formal authority get toppled and disrupted in every sector of society. So the challenge is, how do we nurture and develop a culture of moral leaders who lead with moral authority? That's step one. And how do we ensure that they're the ones calling the shots, in charge, in positions of formal authority?

7:51Dov Seidman:And I would add that the legacy of the pandemic when it comes to leadership, if you will, is that it has revealed and illuminated all the ways that moral leadership matters, not just at the very top. A school principal, a barista at a Starbucks, a store manager at every level of organizations and sector and dimension of society, leadership matters because especially in times of crisis, where people are naturally uncertain and scared, they turn to anybody who has some authority over them. And what they expect from them is truth, some wisdom, some selflessness, and really putting the other first.

8:30Dov Seidman:They expect moral leadership, Adi. All right. That's a great framing. And by the way, if you're watching this, if you have questions for Dove, put them into the chat. I'll try to get to audience questions later. So you use the term moral. Often people who write for HBR, who are in our world, they tend to use terms like that good leadership, good leaders are empathetic, They're vulnerable, you know, in addition to having the kind of the business savvy that you need. But you use the term moral. Can you talk a little bit of what you mean by that and why that is your central framing? What I don't mean by it is moral leadership is not about moralizing, becoming moralistic or becoming an expert, if you will, on how to wrestle with with moral dilemmas or how to take a stand on a social, political, environmental, religious issue.

9:21Dov Seidman:even though it might include that. Moral leadership is really about the how, how you lead, how you make decisions. Is it cost-benefit analysis or is it guided by principles? Are you willing to do inconvenient, courageous, and difficult things because that's what principle or values require of you? It's really about how you relate to others and have conversations. Is Is it one way or two way? It's how you end a meeting. Do you say, we've had a great conversation. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks.

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10:49Dov Seidman:What's the, whose call is it? Oh, it's a marketing decision. Who's got the marketing budget? That's framing it in terms of power. Whose call is it? What about asking, what's the right call? What do we think is the fair call? What's the call that honors and is infidelity to our values? So I'm gonna, there's a whole playbook that I'd like to get into, but for now, let me just say, it's not about moralizing. It's really about the how, how you wield power, how you make decisions, how you behave, and really kind of what you embody in terms of your own values. And maybe, Adi, we can bring this into what HBR viewers are all struggling with.

11:28Dov Seidman:Adi, you've written a lot in HBR about the behaviors and qualities that we need more of in order to succeed in the workplace. So why don't you name some, Adi, if I could put you on the spot. In order to win today, what are some of the behaviors that we want from our colleagues and teammates yeah okay well trust um trust okay i'm gonna write these down trust okay uh let's say well i talked about before i talked about you know things like like empathy like vulnerability um yeah commitment um you know uh you know look you know we're not talking about individual contributors we're talking about teams and companies so you know kind of you know a shared commitment, a sense of team.

12:13Feel free to add to those. Those are a few.

12:16Dov Seidman:And these are not nice to have. This is what you figured out kind of is essential today. So you didn't just say efficiency and productivity and speed. You're calling for human quality. So I think moral leaders are very much attuned to the distinction that I call between shifting behavior and elevating behavior. Because leadership is about the how, how we get people to do things, how we generate energy in them, how we enlist them in journeys and missions worthy of their dedication and loyalty. So if I were to put a product on sale, I could get you to buy now and not later or more, not less. If we create a great political attack ad, I could get you to vote left, not right, or right, not left.

13:00Dov Seidman:We know how to use carrots and sticks to shift or nudge behavior. And if you give me enough carrots and sticks, I could get you to work faster, maybe have fewer sick days, work 10 hours and not eight. But the behaviors that you asked for, Adi, no amount of carrots and sticks can get you because this is human beings acting and behaving in their most elevated way. Can you imagine saying to somebody, go in a room and don't come out or you'll be fired if you can't come out with empathy and the ability to engender trust in the other, or you find more courage in being vulnerable. There are no amount of carrots that can coerce people into these behaviors.

13:40Dov Seidman:Well, let's try bonuses and no amount of sticks. Let's try carrots. If you tripled everybody's salaries, Adi, would you get more empathy? You would not. We might kind of get the opposite. So we find ourselves in a discontinuous moment in leadership where what we want in and out of people, no amount of carrots and sticks can get us. Now, I'm not against sticks. There should be fireable offenses, but should the fear of being fired animate 2 % or 98 % of how things happen around this place? I'm really for carrots, too. I think we should pay our colleagues as much as possible and hopefully more than our competitors.

14:20Dov Seidman:But what moral leaders understand is that certain behaviors cannot be coerced. They cannot be motivated. They can only be inspired. And I think moral leaders are inspirational leaders because trust, empathy, vulnerability, collaborating, honesty, courage, all these human elevated qualities that we aspire to see in those around us must and can only be inspired. So leaders understand the difference.

14:58from a 50-page restoration block or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required, compatibility and availability varies 18+. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes.

15:31Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.

15:45Dov Seidman:We're seeing this play out in return to the office. More leaders know if you were my subordinate, Adi, I could insist. Never lie to me. always tell me the truth, but I could never insist always be loyal to me. So moral leaders know that certain things they can insist on and other things they have to inspire. And we're actually seeing this play out with who's insisting that people come back to the office and who's trying to inspire it. So everything you say is, I think it's great and is inspiring. But I do want to ask, Leadership paradigms do shift. And in the past, it was more of a whatever, command control.

16:27I'm the boss. I say you do. We're in an era now where everything we've been talking about, where we want the empathetic leader and the vulnerable leader and all that. It's possible there'll be another turn of the wheel before long, and there's another leadership paradigm. But my question with you, everything you say seems solid, seems inspiring. How do you know it's, you know, is there science or is there, this is a very HPR question, is there science or are there metrics to show that this approach to leadership not only is right in some, you know, 30 ,000 foot moralistic definition, but that in terms of outcome and performance for an institution?

17:08Dov Seidman:So let's get into the science and metrics. But before we do that, here's what's not going to change. There's only two types of behaviors. There's what you can and can't do and what you should and should not do. I believe that, you know, Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart said there's a difference between doing that which you have a right to do and that which is right to do. We used to specify to people, here's what you can and can't do. And then we asked them to pursue goals and strategies, mindful of what they can and can't do as fast and as ambitiously. And they had to outcompete on that basis.

17:43Dov Seidman:And in that world, the few, a military general would say, take that hill. A CEO would say, this is our strategy. These are our goals. And in that world, everybody's job is to do the next thing right. I think the way the world is working today, where we want more and more people to not just do the next thing right, but to do the next right thing. And that shift, I don't think, is ever going back from asking people to do the next thing right to inspiring them to do the next right thing. Computers can be programmed to do the next thing right. Only a human being can do the next right thing. And I think that we are now in a normative environment.

18:21Dov Seidman:Normatives as in norms, what you should and should not do. And moral leaders get out of bed to foster normative cultures where people are should-minded. And that, I think, is here to stay. And the reason there's such an obsession with culture is corporate culture was invented, all culture was invented to transmit norms from one generation to the others, norms as in what we ought to do and should do. You don't need culture if you're just going to specify the rules and the policies and the procedures, but you need to be deliberate and intentional about scaling values-based cultures if you're going to be normative.

18:56Dov Seidman:And I just wanted to say that as a way of saying, I don't think this is a fad. I think the world has been reshaped in ways to put us in a normative environment. We're seeing that in society, in community, and in companies. So I think that's true. I think there's also a counter, though, and maybe this is just high-level political counter, but I feel like historians will look back at this era and define it perhaps as one of renewed autocracy, move away from some of the ideals that you're talking about. Does that strike you as accurate? it. So you remember I said that leadership is about trend lines.

19:35Dov Seidman:Let's step back. Can you name an autocratic mayor succeeding in terms of how his or her city is being led?

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20:40Dov Seidman:Can you think of an autocratic CEO running a Fortune 500 company? Can you think of a championship won in basketball, baseball, soccer, World Cup soccer? name the sport in the last 10 years kind of run by a command and control screaming kind of that top-down coach. So autocracy is asserting itself or reasserting itself, I think, in national politics, where a dictator still has his hands on the levers of the military and ability to engage in propaganda, et cetera. And I think there's an epic battle between Putin's autocracy and Zelensky's moral leadership. But if you also step back, I'm seeing some wonderful trends towards moral leadership in so many other more local sectors and dimensions of our lives.

21:32Dov Seidman:You know, and I think the reason I brought up sports is sports is about winning. It's about becoming a champion. And it's incredible who's winning in sports. I mean, Steve Kerr with the Golden State Warriors had great talent, but so did his competitors. He had such a bad back one year that he missed 43 games. He wasn't even there to do the coaching and they did it through a trust-based culture. Jill Ellis, when she was winning champions as coach of the American women in soccer, she knew the names of the dogs and cats of every one of her players. And that's just a symbol of how personal her coaching began.

22:10Dov Seidman:And I can give you, you had Greg Berhalter on your show and the U.S. men's team has been incredibly successful in the last World Cup and aiming to eclipse that in the next one. But it was, if you listen to how the players talk about what they built there, it was an identity forged in unity. And even though they were a very young team, they tried to out-compete by out-behaving the competition through qualities of boldness and resilience, et cetera. And I have more examples, but I'm pretty positive about some large trends here. So I like the questions that you threw out rhetorically about, you know, name a CEO or a coach or, you know, others who are succeeding, you know, who aren't, who don't have aspects of morality and leadership.