What It’s Like to Be a Social Justice Lawyer | Career Crush

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0:39Jessica Lewis:What does it take to be successful in social justice law? What I do know is that they're fighters, they work hard, and they're really, really good at reading stacks of paper. And lawyers, they've been in the headlines more than ever these days. Like, of course, you can go to protests, you can sign petitions, but lawyers, they're the ones fighting the real fight. What's it like to be a lawyer who's fighting for real change?

1:18You refer to yourself as a social justice warrior. What does that mean to you? It means I need something to put in my cover letter. No, I'm kidding.

1:29Jessica Lewis:That's Jessica Lewis. She's a staff attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union of Massachusetts. She's being modest there about being a social justice warrior, but she is one. She was a fellow at the Southern Poverty Law Center. She went to Harvard Law School. She was in the Peace Corps and she interned at the White House. Okay, that's just some of her resume. And being a social justice warrior, it's a lot more than a line in a cover letter. So I think in this job, we spend a lot of time really working to fight other people's battles and really making that our priority. I think the best example of that, I did a clinic with a legal services organization and I did work with survivors of domestic abuse.

2:19And we received a call from one of our clients. She was saying that she wasn't able to send her children to school because she was sick and her ex-husband wasn't paying child support. She didn't have any money to send them to school on her own. So I stepped in and called the ex-husband just to remind him of these child support payments. And then he told me, this is none of your business. And then I was able to reply, this is literally my job. This is all that I do. So yes, this is my business and I'm stepping in here. I think a lot of young people, they have this goal of like doing something like for the greater good or like doing something that gives them purpose or that they feel passionate about.

2:57Like, do you have some kind of like pros and cons to like pursuing your passion or pursuing something that gives you that feeling of purpose versus, you know, maybe going somewhere where you'll make more money or somewhere where, you know, it's like more cut and dry and like less emotional or something like. Do you have any thoughts on that? Yeah, so I think for each person, obviously, that's a very personal choice. And sometimes it does just come down to a matter of resources. I know a lot of people who choose to go into BIC law in order to pay off their loans or they have family obligations or things like that.

3:35And they may spend three to five years in BIC law and then transition to being a public interest lawyer. That's one common route.

3:43Jessica Lewis:Jessica says BIC law a few times in this interview. It's basically those large law firms in New York, Chicago. Think 500 lawyers, big skyscrapers, cubicles, intellectual property, other buzzwords. I just dove right into public interest. I did a summer with a big law firm and I loved it. There were a lot of perks. They took us out to five star restaurants all the time or we went to the Hamptons and like hung out. It was fabulous. Um, but I could not wake up every day knowing that my goal was just to make other people money. It just wasn't my thing. And I think I was happiest there when I did a rotation through the pro bono, um, side of things and that I just loved being able to help other people and knowing that I was waking up every day with a purpose, um, which was just propel fitness water with Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar and vitamins propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self.

4:50What propels you? Propel with Gatorade Electrolytes. Good sleep is everything. That's why Ollie's science back support is made with a blend of melatonin and L-theanine for both kiddos and grownups. So when your mind won't switch off, you've got something that can help. Erasing thoughts and restless nights won't stand a chance. Find Ollie's sleep solutions for the whole family at ollie.com that's o-l-l-y dot com to make other people's lives better basically um so i think for me it became clear and obvious that my passion was going to be the thing that went out so is that something that you had to kind of learn on your own through your own journey or did you go into public interest law kind of already having that feeling sorry i just got a text that they're entering the courtroom for the verdict.

5:43Oh gosh.

5:44Jessica Lewis:During this interview, the Derek Chauvin trial was wrapping up and the verdict was being announced, so we were both a little bit distracted. I suffered constant existential crisis when I was a teenager, so I became kind of a nihilist. I didn't actually go into all of this thinking that I'm gonna be the thing that changes the world. I did have a very discreet goal about what constitutional change that I wanted to impact or a cause, but it was like a very small thing and I thought it would take like 20 years. So I think I was kind of realistic about that. What were those constitutional changes that you were interested in?

6:22Like what were your goals? So I wanted to make an impact in education law, basically the way that we teach history in middle school, high school, etc. Because right now it's very Eurocentric and we only really ever learn about other cultures through the lens of how white Americans, et cetera, hurt them. So black people are only mentioned for slavery or being hosed down, but not, I guess, our impact on culture or the shaping of America, et cetera. We're something that things happen to. We're not people who contribute it. And then when our history is taught is very fragmented so you don't actually see the continuous narrative of how we got from one place to where we are today and for a lot of people that causes and then say like what are they still complaining about slavery happened a long time ago because it's just taught very poorly or discrimination against Asian Americans or when Hispanics actually came into this country etc we just don't get a very accurate picture of what America is in this country and that's probably or largely because of how we're taught history.

7:35We're just taught America's white, basically. And I always wanted to change that and make a constitutional argument that that is racial discrimination or harm to a person's identity. And the school or the government can actually be the thing that affects that identity crisis that teenagers go through because of this, because of the way that they're being taught about themselves in class, etc. So that's what I've always wanted and accomplish. I'm not working on that right now. One day I will. It's in my 10 year plan now. Lofty goals. So what are some of the obstacles and challenges of this industry?

8:14Like when you talk to your friends who are lawyers, like what are the things that you all kind of wish that you could change about this industry?

8:25So an obstacle for public interest law, it's really hard to get a position because of the funding. It's not always there. Or during the pandemic, and this is obviously not just representative of the pandemic, but there was a lot of downsizing on organizations because money dragged up because people obviously are not going to be giving that much during a recession. And it's kind of a cyclical thing. So my friend had just landed up a new position and then her position kind of went away because they just didn't have the funds anymore or really getting your foot in. It's why you also have to go through the fellowship process too, because it's really hard to get your foot in at an organization.

9:07It's also why internships are important, et cetera, so that you meet the right people. You have a good rapport among your colleagues because especially for like Boston, it's a small place. Civil rights community is very small. Propel Fitness Water with Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar, and vitamins. Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade Electrolytes. Good sleep is everything. That's why Oli's Science Back Support is made with a blend of melatonin and L-theanine for both kiddos and grown-ups.

9:43So when your mind won't switch off, you've got something that can help. Erasing thoughts and restless nights won't stand a chance. Find Oli's sleep solutions for the whole family at Oli.com. That's O-L-L-Y dot com. So people do know you by your reputation. Like easy things to destroy. So it's also very important to pay attention to it. So I think that's one big obstacle. And then I think something that we would like to change is the legal system is very antiquated in terms of the role of woman. I remember I had one internship where they encouraged women to wear skirts and by encourage I pretty much mean it was a requirement and then we were told if we want to express our individuality we can wear like a nice brooch or I had a colleague who a judge kept pointing out that she's not smiling but you know F you buddy but you can't say that because obviously you're advocating for someone else so you have to like step back and not put yourself or you can't really advocate for yourself when those things are being lobbed at you because it's not about you or you can't necessarily not choose to wear a skirt because I know some jurors have expressed bias against like women wearing pants or there was like one instance where a judge kind of stopped proceedings and like had the attorney go change and it's all very f***ed up.

11:20I don't know if I can curse in here. It's all very messed up. So I think that's one thing that would be great to see change in legal field in terms of how women are treated or understood and we don't have to conform to kind of biased viewpoints. Like I sometimes wear pink when I'm in court hearings because I was once told that I'm angry. So I thought if I look very feminine, no one's going to think I'm angry.

11:48Jessica Lewis:All right, let's talk about money. It varies by field. So as a fellow, my starting salary was$60 ,000, which was, I think, very generous as an attorney and checked I can actually say this this is so the ACLU Massachusetts recently unionized so our floor for it incoming staff attorneys is seventy thousand but on the other side of this is but big law the starting salary for first year attorneys is$190 ,000. I would never make that in my current career path. But my friend also, his starting salary was$225 ,000. So literally twice the amount of money I can ever expect to make in my current career path.

12:47And for most public interests or nonprofits, our salaries are actually disclosed. Not like bottom level attorneys or staff people, but the like legal director or the executive director, they're required to disclose their income on like tax forms, etc. So you can actually see what they make and what you can like, the highest amount that you can expect to make in this field. So that's pretty much the norm. That is such a bigger disparity than I ever thought. That's wild. My friends were texting each other and were on a group chat about their bonuses. It was a lot. Or, oh, I just got a pay bump because I'm now a second year and I'm just like, I don't want to be included in this.

13:37Jessica Lewis:Talking to Jessica was so cool. She was so candid and honest and just real with me about what it's like to be a lawyer and what it's like to work in community law. and I really, really like that. Yes, this career is challenging and you're probably not going to make as much money as you would in a different career path, but that doesn't mean the work you're doing isn't important. Thanks for watching. Do you have a career crush? Tell us about them in the comments and we'll see if we can talk to them for you. Subscribe to our channel to see more interviews with people actually living the dream. Bye.

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