What Leaders Must Do Today to Resolve Systemic Racism

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1:06Welcome to HBR Quarantine. I'm Adi Ignatius, co-host of the show, along with my colleague Josh Macht. What a week this has been. We created this show about six weeks ago to deal with COVID-19 and its fallout on business and the world of work. Now there's a second issue that demands our attention. The killing of an African-American man, George Floyd, in Minneapolis just over a week ago was a tipping point for many Americans. It was yet another reminder of the casual and brutal racism that is still a reality in the United States. For the protesters that have taken to the streets and dozens of cities, the message is clear.

1:44No longer. Something needs to change. It needs to change now. This is not just a problem of police tactics, although that's certainly part of the issue. It's a problem with racism, inequality, and the unwillingness of individuals and institutions to truly commit themselves to doing something about it. It's tied in with COVID-19 as well, which has hit people of color disproportionately hard. We're going to focus today in particular on what businesses and executives can do to try to correct the inequality and injustices that have lit a few in America. There are plenty of us who think we're on the right side of the history, who think we have a good heart and are doing our part to help achieve some small bit of progress.

2:24But if we're honest with ourselves, most of us know we're coming up short. This is the kind of moment that shocks us out of complacency, that forces us to ask ourselves, what can we do to truly make a difference? We have a special guest today to talk about this issue. She is Laura Morgan Roberts. She's a professor at the University of Virginia's Darden School of Business. She's the author of several books, including Race, work in leadership, new perspectives on the Black experience. So I'm going to bring her in in a second, and I also invite everyone who's watching to submit their own questions as well in the comment box.

2:58We'll try to get to as many of your questions as possible. But Josh, let me turn it to you first. What are your own thoughts on this moving and troubling week? First off, Adi, thanks so much, and thanks for those opening words. I mean, I think like you, I have been feeling just so much frustration. And you can't help but feel that when you see these protesters and the cries for justice and equality. And it's hard to see so many people in real pain. It's hard to see innocent people murdered in front of our eyes. And then at the same time, I think I had these emotions of, well, you know, what right do I have to speak?

3:39What right do I even have to these emotions because I, you know, I haven't endured the sort of dehumanization that so many others have lived with for so long. And, and, and you just feel that come through. And I was feeling this kind of sense of like, you know, what, what, what can I do, you know, or what can I, what should I say? And that's when, you know, we published Laura's words on our site and I went to them and I'll quote them directly because it really did, it just struck me and I'm, you know, eager to talk more about this, but she says on the site, for people not directly impacted by these events, the default response is often silence.

4:19Many whites avoid talking about race because they fear being seen as prejudice. So they adopt strategic colorblindness instead. But no one has the perfect words to address atrocities in our society. And then she goes on to quote Martin Luther King's words, in the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends. The silence of our friends kind of really hit me. And I felt like, yeah, wait, this is not the moment to be silent. This is a moment to engage. This is a moment to really engage in a difficult conversation.

4:56Laura Morgan Roberts:And this episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required, compatibility and availability varies 18+. Trading at Schwab is now powered by Ameritrade, giving you even more specialized support than ever before. Like access to the Trade Desk, our team of passionate traders ready to tackle anything from the most complex trading questions to a simple strategy gut check.

5:36Need assistance? No problem. Get 24-7 professional answers and live help and access support by phone, email, and in-platform chat. That's how Schwab is here for you, to help you trade brilliantly. Learn more at schwab.com slash trading. Yeah, we've come up short. You're exactly right, Adi. But, you know, if we really do yearn for a world or a culture or a society or a company or a neighborhood or whatever, that really embraces each other's differences in a meaningful way, then it's time to engage in a different kind of conversation. And then, of course, not just today, but what are the actions going forward?

6:18And it's made me think a lot about that. And I think this conversation gives rise to all those issues. I'm really eager to talk with our guests about all of this and more. And then, of course, from here forward, where are we going? How do we walk in a positive direction together to get where we really should be going? So let's get to it. Yeah, let's bring her in. So if you just joined us, this is HPR Quarantined. Our guest today is Laura Morgan Roberts, professor at University of Virginia's Darden School of Business, editor of several books, including Race, Work, and Leadership, New Perspectives on the Black Experience.

6:54She's also the co-author of an article that Josh just mentioned in Harvard Business Review this week, called U.S. Businesses Must Take Meaningful Action Against Racism. So again, I invite everyone watching to submit their own questions as well. But Laura, I want to welcome to the program. Thank you for giving us the time. And I just I need to ask you, how are you holding up in this, you know, really, really tough week? Thank you so much for having me, Adi and Joshua. And especially thank you for asking that question. It's certainly been a trying week, but it also has deepened a sense of personal and I think community conviction around finally picking up the mantle, passing it around, and each of us doing our part to create a more just and equitable society.

7:49society. And in that, recognizing that it's not just about an organizational policy or a mission statement alone, but it's really about transforming the hearts and the minds of people within our organizations and in our communities who then have to enact these policies and practices that will help us to move forward. So it's sobering to see what's happened. It's sobering to feel what's happening. And it's sobering to hear the voices of so many people from a wide variety of backgrounds, but especially Black professionals who are just exasperated in the context of our conversation today and reinforcing what we've been hearing from the research for many, many years, which is, you know, we are so tired.

8:47When are we really going to make progress? When are we actually going to take this work seriously and have some partnership and allyship in doing the work? So I'm really grateful for this forum today that we're able to have this conversation and come to the table together and think about how we find a way forward. You know, Laura, you point to the the vice provost at the University of Michigan, Sellers, who writes about the exhaustion, the feelings of exhaustion that you just point out that I think are real. And in your piece, you talk about how this conversation about race has really moved from questions about marginalization in the workplace to this much bigger debate around the deep, enduring stain of racism in America.

9:30And how do we handle that? Yeah, so my co-author of that piece, Ella Washington, as well as the dozens of contributors to our edited volume, Race, Work, and Leadership, all want to communicate two important dynamics around racism. The first said racism is not just an art.

10:03Laura Morgan Roberts:from a 50-page restoration block or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required. Compatibility and availability varies 18+. Trading at Schwab is now powered by Ameritrade, bringing you an expanding library of education with even more ways to sharpen your trading skills. Access new online courses, insightful webcasts, articles, engaging videos, and more, all curated just for traders. Plus, guided learning paths with content designed to fit your unique interests.

10:39No sifting to find exactly what you need, so you can spend your time learning to trade brilliantly. Learn more at schwab.com slash trading. The fact of our past, but it also permeates our present. So we're actively participating in and co-constructing a system that reinforces a racial hierarchy. And that racial hierarchy is producing experiences of inclusion and exclusion, of marginalization or advancement. So it's a much more detailed conversation than our D &I initiatives often take up around just bring your whole self to work or just be authentic. It's really about re-evaluating the structures and the practices that are in place that have led to this systematic dehumanization, Joshua, to use the word that you used earlier, of members of the organization.

11:38So that's the first piece. Racism is not just past, but it's also present. And the third is that racism is not just out there in the streets, but it's also in here. So Ella and I wanted to communicate that there's an ongoing link and fluidity between what we see happening in terms of the racial strife and concern and injustice that's happening in the streets and people's experiences of race and racism within the workplace. It's ironic that this is happening in a moment in history when we are, millions of us are and have been practicing physical distancing. So instead of walking into our office buildings every day and metaphorically checking race at the door, we're signing on to Zoom every morning from our own environments, from our personal homes, from our communities.

12:35And I think that's also signaling to us the fact that what happens out there in our communities, in our neighborhoods, it affects our experiences in the workplace every day. Laura, the last bit of really grand national soul searching on this issue was maybe three years ago, the white supremacist rally in Virginia. You're at the University of Virginia, so you had a front row seat to that. You know, did anything enduring, did anything lasting come out of that national moment? Is there anything to learn from now? Yeah, well, I paid close attention to what was happening in Charlottesville at that time as an alum, actually.

13:19Undergrad, class of 96, wah-wah, I was remembering my own graduation walk down that lawn and how meaningful it was to be able to celebrate earning a degree from an institution where one of my ancestors had served as a cook. And seeing this long journey, intergenerational journey, between a position of oppression and an opportunity to be able to grow and grab onto my full potential. So I had that sense of hope and optimism. And what we saw in the white supremacist rallies on that very same space was a stark contrast to that message and that feeling. So I actually was not on the faculty of UVA at the time.

14:17I was on the faculty of Georgetown McDonough, which has been gauging in a parallel process of reflection about its own history and legacy around the sale of enslaved Africans to fortify the economic standing of that institution. So what was significant in that moment was that business leaders did start to speak up and make public statements about racial tolerance and the fact that.

15:05Laura Morgan Roberts:Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required. Compatibility and availability varies 18+. Trading at Schwab is now powered by Ameritrade. Unlocking the power of Thinkorswim, the award-winning trading platforms loaded with features that let you dive deeper into the market. Visualize your trades in a new light on Thinkorswim Desktop with robust charting and analysis tools. All while you uncover new opportunities with up-to-the-minute market news and insights. Think or Swim is available on desktop, web and mobile to meet you where you are.

15:38It's built by the trading obsessed to help you trade brilliantly. Learn more at Schwab.com slash trading. They were responsible for this social justice issue in the same ways that they had been taking up the mantle around environmentalism and homelessness and some other social justice issues that that were receiving a lot of attention. But it wasn't the same widespread response. And it in some ways petered out. So it's a bit different now in terms of the scale and scope. The question is not, have you responded and made a public statement, if you're a business leader or a university leader, but when is your statement coming and how far will you go with your statement?

16:23Yeah, no, that's really true. The The other thing we saw yesterday was all the social media activity around Blackout Tuesday. Yeah. So I'm curious, because so many individuals, right, and companies showed their solidarity posting black images. Does that what does that do? Is that is that political correctness at play or what comes of that? It's a step. You know, I don't want to be dismissive of individual and institutional acts of courage, because we're all at a different stage in this trajectory, right? So it's a step for many people to even say the word race, much less to display a symbol that publicly supports their belief or their espoused belief that black lives do and should matter.

17:15And they're committed to promoting equity and justice for all racial groups. So I don't mean to sort of diminish that or make light of it, but I think the question that people are asking today, right, on the day that followed the blackout is, so now what? You've made the statement, you've acknowledged the harm that is taking place. Have you begun to acknowledge your own role in creating or perpetuating these systems? And are you willing to invest in the hard work that is required for us to truly experience that ROI from the business case of diversity? Because with the business case for diversity, there's a promise that there's going to be a net gain from increasing representation and enhancing inclusion in organizations.

18:10But it doesn't come without some measure of conflict and discomfort, a redirection of resources toward promoting issues and promoting people that are working on behalf of equity, justice, and inclusion. So it's about a long haul. It's not about a day. But I also don't want to diminish the fact that when companies are making these statements and individuals are making these statements, when Robert Sellers uses his platform at the University of Michigan, my alma mater as well, which has a publicly contested history around how proactive they have been in promoting racial inclusion. We should be mindful.

18:56We should pay attention to that. Again, this is HBR Quarantine. If you're just joining us, our guest is Laura Morgan Roberts. If you have questions for her, we're talking about racism and inequality in society and particularly in the workplace. So if you have questions, put them in the comment box. I'm going to actually get to a question now. I want to give a little preamble, which is to confess that the places that I've worked in my life, including my current employer, we do not have a very diverse workforce. We tell ourselves the usual things, that our profession tends to skew overly white, that we try hard at hiring a diverse staff, but that it doesn't seem to work out.

19:38I know that's not an adequate explanation. And the question, though, that I'm going to take is similar. It's from Lauren in New York.

20:11Trading at Schwab is now powered by Ameritrade, bringing you an expanding library of education with even more ways to sharpen your trading skills. Access new online courses, insightful webcasts, articles, engaging videos and more, all curated just for traders. Plus, guided learning paths with content designed to fit your unique interests. No sifting to find exactly what you need so you can spend your time learning to trade brilliantly. Learn more at schwab.com slash trading. Oh, sorry, this is from Jen from Portland. So what do you recommend for business professionals to move beyond dialogue to actionable reform in the workplace on these issues?

20:55So what do I recommend for professionals? It's each professional, again, needs to search head, hands, and heart. So, number one, head, you need to commit to a process. We need to commit to a process of lifelong learning about the ways in which race has fundamentally shaped our economy, also the ways in which racial inclusion and demonstrations in service of racial inclusion have advanced the democracy of the United States and the democracy of our workplaces. So we want to come to a greater understanding so that we can interpret what's happening within a broader context, get outside of the sphere of our own individual experience, and really try to step back and understand how all of these factors are interrelated.

21:51When Courtney McCluny, Aaron Thomason, Michelle Kim and I wrote a piece about the impact of race on COVID that came out in Harvard Business Review last week, that was really our goal, was to raise the awareness of this broader system of interdependencies that were making certain individuals more vulnerable to the toxicity that exists within our society than others. And the APA has declared that racism, like coronavirus, is also a pandemic. And there are certain individuals who are more vulnerable. So that's your head, the acknowledge. The second is the affirm. That's your heart. It's affirming the right to personhood.

22:34It's being able to sit and listen nonjudgmentally to someone else's truth and someone else's experience, even if you hadn't seen it before, and not become defensive when you hear them speaking about a pattern of experiences that they have had, maybe even working with you and your teammates within your own organization. But I think what the question here is, is really around Jen, is really getting to the hands piece, which is the action. So what are the range of actions? Oh my goodness, where to start? I mean, every time I open up my browser, I see another list of 75 things you can do to promote racial justice.

23:12So I say that with all humility and offering, I'll throw out a couple, but oh my goodness, once we start asking the question, I bet we can discover so many things that we've never done. But they range from company investments toward racial justice organizations. It's company divestment from organizations that don't actively promote racial justice. It's about partnerships with stakeholders who hold similar values and are aligned, and about reconsidering and perhaps terminating some partnerships with stakeholders who are indicating that they don't hold those same kinds of values. So that's on a macro level.

23:54And if you have that strategic decision-making power over your portfolio of resources, you can make those kind of decisions. But we also know there are a lot of team leaders and middle managers who may not have that same span of control or responsibility. And so they're wondering what they can do on a day-to-day basis. And those kinds of actions range from just starting out a conversation in the same way that you did today, Adi and Joshua. Like, you know, gosh, a lot is happening. Want to acknowledge that. How are you doing with all of this? here's how I'm feeling here's how I'm processing is there anything I can do to be supportive you would be amazed if you ask people up trying to be a bit more mindful of things you buy for you and your family well when it comes to laundry choose all free clear 100 free from dyes and perfumes all free clear uses only essential ingredients that tackle tough stains and odors.

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25:39Without their experiences and what they're going through and what they need to see changed in your local environment, they will feel safe enough and secure enough to share those suggestions with you. You know, as long as they're guaranteed that they won't be held or penalized for being disruptive or an agitator or threatening. So that's the last piece, is when people do speak out, your role as an advocate is to help buffer, to help protect them. When we think about what happened with George Floyd, you know, what, among so many other things, is tragic is the number of bystanders who were there who actively participated and or observed and didn't intervene in that moment.

26:23When these kinds of things happen in the form of a microaggression, but you know it could be career ending if it doesn't, you know, if it's not corrected or addressed, here's where you step in and you sort of clarify and you call people to consciousness. Wait, did you just characterize him as being threatening? Did you just say he was intimidating? Because I thought he was just giving you feedback on your work. Um, you know, maybe we need to think about how we're framing this again, because I find his feedback to be to be quite valuable. And I don't find his enthusiasm to be intimidating at all.

27:00You know, it's those moments. Very, very subtle. But those are the opportunities that allow us to start to move change forward. Yeah. I mean, you're pointing to a lot there, Laura, especially around being, you know, systematic approach to looking at their, especially for a lot of leaders who are looking at big organizations with a lot of relationships. I mean, in the article, you talk a little bit about, I think it was the University of Minnesota just cutting ties with the Minnesota police force, and that there are things that you really need to go through and be much more, this I think gets at your point about investment in time, that this is going to be a prevalent issue that you are going to be investing for this is it.

27:44And looking at those relationships, right? And it's not, it's a much bigger thing than, you know, any one seminar conversation gets at. It is. And just to add on that really quickly, because I know we want to get to more questions, but, you know, many firms have cut their DEI budgets, really starting with the recession of 07, 08, and haven't sort of rebounded those in the same way or with the same degree of fervor. In recent years, after two terms of President Obama's administration, many firms also started to kind of declare victory around the race issue and shift to other dimensions of inclusion that are a bit more palatable.

28:26And some of the leading firms that are publishing statements now have in recent years dismissed or eliminated the position of chief diversity officer entirely. So when we don't have those structures in place, it's very hard to commit to doing this long-term work. Yeah. So there are a few questions that have come in that are really around a theme, and I'm going to kind of paraphrase, but there's a question from Angie from Minneapolis-St. Paul, from Christy from Norwich, New York, and Cheryl from Washington, D.C. And basically, they're all asking, And, you know, what do you do if your company doesn't take a public stand or doesn't acknowledge what's going on?