Working While Managing Your Child’s Mental Health | Women at Work | Podcast

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0:47You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Gallo. And I'm Amy Bernstein.

0:58Most working parents in the U.S. are at least somewhat concerned about their children's mental health. Just over half are either very or extremely concerned. A third of them said they didn't think it would be okay to leave work to attend to their child. And a quarter of parents agreed that no matter what's going on with their child, they are not allowed to let it interrupt their work. Those are a few of the insights that the Children's Mental Health Advocacy Group On Our Sleeves unearthed in surveying working parents over the last two years. Here are some more. Over half of working parents had turned to their child's pediatrician or reached out to a psychologist or counselor to get them professional help.

1:39And then over half of those families received a diagnosis.

1:46When your child is struggling, whether it's with social anxiety or anger management or autism, it's nearly impossible to focus on anything but how they're doing. So I wasn't surprised to read that parents, on average, estimated that a third of their thoughts during the workday were about their child's mental health and well-being. For a quarter of parents who were especially concerned and whose work had been regularly disrupted, that average was nearly 50%. These disruptions, the calls that must be made, the appointments that must be attended, the unexpected pickups from school, affect parents' productivity and the way they feel toward their job.

2:29Half reported feeling hopeless about finishing certain tasks, underprepared in a meeting, and like the quality of their work was slipping. Even among parents who were just somewhat concerned about their child's mental health, a significant fraction said they were also missing work and falling behind. And being repeatedly torn between protecting your child and meeting a project deadline is simply unsustainable. No wonder 32 % of parents changed jobs or quit altogether in the past year. Many more plan to do the same in the coming year because they're not receiving the flexibility, understanding, and paid time off they need.

3:10That's bad news for companies that don't have family-first cultures and policies. So how can we make work more manageable for women trying to keep their kids safe? The executive director of On Our Sleeves, Marty Post, is here with ideas. MARTHA POST, This is an episode that our colleague Erica Truxler pitched. She's been on the show several times before and hosted our family management series, so she's going to sub in for me. MARTHA POST, Another heads up. In this interview, we touch on the topic of suicide, which we know is tough for some listeners. If that's you, you may want to skip this episode.

3:49Marty, thank you so much for being here. I spent time reading the two reports from On Our Sleeves and the stats in both are shocking, eye-opening and depressing. And I feel like before the pandemic, this was clearly a crisis. And now that we are two plus years out, it feels like we've really reached a tipping point. And I'm curious, how are you making sense of these stats? How are you interpreting them? Well, at On Our Sleeves, we are so focused on getting resources to the communities that most surround our children, the parents, the teachers, the coaches. And we're focused on that because of the crisis, as you mentioned, and also the fact that many of today's adults did not grow up discussing mental health in their homes.

4:37So many of us, and I'll include myself in that, don't feel equipped to meet the crisis. We're not medical professionals. Propel Fitness Water with Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar, and vitamins. Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade electrolytes. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes.

5:17Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. So we feel ill-equipped for it. And what I think you're seeing in these two work studies is how when someone is asked at home to do something for which they feel ill-equipped and has potentially very high consequences of a child falling behind in school, socially struggling, potentially harming themselves or committing suicide. Those are high stakes situations to try to meet without having the proper training.

6:00Yeah. And they are chronic situations. And so we really took the data as an indicator to us that this is not going to go away when the world, if we can even say these words anymore, returns to normal. Because the after effect of it will continue to impact parents' interactions with their kids and parents' abilities to function and focus at work. Yeah. You know, I want to pick up on what you just said about focusing at work because, Because, you know, we know from data and research, lots of research, that there is something called the maternal wall bias, which is that when women become mothers, if they become mothers, they are seen as less competent and less committed to work.

6:52And I have to admit my concern about raising awareness around how consuming these events can be, particularly in a woman's life and a mother's life, is that we somehow increase that bias. We somehow present women as distracted, torn, less committed to work because their mind is elsewhere. Do you have any thoughts about how we can both raise awareness about the burden that mothers are carrying here without causing people to question how they handle their work life? That is such a good point. We especially don't want, well, any parent, but especially mothers to fall into that feeling of I have such high expectations and such high visibility on me because I'm a mom.

7:37I dare not, you know, fill in the blank. I dare not be late. I dare not be distracted. Right. In both studies, we were expecting a gender difference in the findings around things like level of concern, level of interruption. We found in the first study in the Great Collide that there's a difference between interruption and disruption. I can be interrupted multiple times and those may be either they're very quick or I feel less worried about them and I just redirect my attention. What we did find though is that the disruption is interruption that kind of takes a toll. It means it's either harder to get focused or it's harder to complete the task or it's harder to feel joy in the task.

8:20So we expected a gender difference there as well across interruption, disruption, across concern level. and we did not see it, not a statistically significant gender difference. But then what we all know from other data is that women do more of the unpaid work. So within families, it's very likely that if you're solving for a mental health issue for a child, it is very likely that the mother is doing more of the making of the appointments, transporting to the appointments, following up, getting prescriptions filled, whatever those tasks might look like. So So I guess in some ways I feel heartened that the concern and the problem are equally affecting fathers and mothers, because that tells us that we don't have a gap in fathers and mothers seeing the issue.

9:10We'd love to get to a day where there's no gap in how fathers and mothers solve the issue. Well, and also no gap in how parents are perceived by their coworkers, their bosses, their direct reports. Because even if the concern, interruption, disruption is shared, we know again from this research that it's more likely a woman will be seen.

9:44Parade Electrolytes. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? Girl, this is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Is less committed, less competent if she's attending to those needs than if a father is attending to those needs.

10:22I mean, we might even, based on the research we know about how men express vulnerability at work and how they're often rewarded for doing so, right? They might actually incur a bonus, an emotional one or a reputational one for being the concerned parent, whereas the mom might be seen as distracted and not able to do her job. Again, as a children's mental health organization, we're not in the business of making HR recommendations. However, what we see over and over and over is the benefit of open conversation about this topic. Because mental health is often discussed as a problem that affects adults and maybe teens, not necessarily children.

11:03But half of all lifetime mental illness will present before the age of 14. So that's the first bit. And the second bit is that there's stigma around talking about mental health very differently than we speak about physical health. We call this the casserole effect. If your child was diagnosed with a chronic illness of some kind or had a heart episode or a blood disorder, your community would rally to your side probably without you even asking, really. As soon as the first person knew what was happening, you would have casseroles and cards and flowers and gift cards and offers to babysit. and your lawn would get mowed and it would just happen because other people would say we have to support this family but if you come out and say my child has crippling anxiety or depression or my child's ADHD is is not manageable right now there's almost like a silence that happens instead of casseroles and gift cards showing up and so we have to remember that kids are part of the mental health conversation like adults and as much as we can, we have to talk about mental health the way we would think about and talk about and support physical health.

12:14And there's a lot of great resources of how to do that well. We have one at OnOurSleeves.org. It's the do's and don'ts of talking about mental health. And one of the tips is to use person first language. So my child has depression, not my child is depressed. And that's an important shift in the way we speak about this, because it allows everybody to acknowledge that this is happening to the child and that it is not a part of the child's character or personality or who they are. And to bring this back around to the workplace, we want to encourage leaders, one, to assume that there are some latent child mental health concerns going on with employees basically across the board and that they might be the last to know.

13:07And then two, to bravely step into that conversation first and not expect the employees to raise their hands and say, I'm having a difficult time focusing because my child's school is calling three times a day about class disruptions. Right. We're asking the employers to step into that space proactively from a leadership level to set the stage that this is safe to discuss. Because if we don't do that, we're missing out on our ability to harness the power of corporate America to solve this problem. Yes. We will never have enough therapists to solve this problem with one-on-one treatment sessions.

13:48There just will never be enough. And we have a quote from the president of the APA in March of this year who declared that in a global session. But with briefer models of treatment, meaning fewer sessions or prevention programs like the education that comes from groups like On Our Sleeves, we can start to mitigate the need for such intense treatment if we can start to reach these children and meet their needs much sooner. And who better to help propel fitness water with Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar and vitamins propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self.

14:26What propels you? Propel with Gatorade Electrolytes. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com slash podcast. That's indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. I'll reach out to and support parents than the employer who not only is giving them their sustenance in terms of their financial support, but is also in many, many cases connected to their health insurance and benefits.

15:13Yes, right. Yeah, yeah. I'd love to hear more about, let's say you're going through this right now, you're trying to get a diagnosis for your child. How do you or do you have recommendations for how to speak to your manager? What do you recommend in terms of an opening for that conversation? Well, every family is different. Every situation is different. And of course, every workplace culture is different. And one of the things that is very true in the workplace is that the policy and the culture may or may not align. So the policy may say, you have flexibility as long as it's no more than two hours in a day to do whatever you might need to do.

15:54And the company doesn't need to know about it. The culture may tell you that if you try to leave early or come late or flex that at lunchtime, that you're going to get questioned or questioning look or something like that. So I think the first piece is to take stock of where is my team and my direct manager on this culture piece? What really is the culture? Has my boss ever mentioned therapy or a therapist or counseling in anything? Or does anyone on my team talk about that? And then also assess your own personal comfort with disclosure. We heard very strongly in both studies that there is sensitivity around disclosing this for two reasons.

16:41One, it feels like a reflection on the parent. Right. And the second thing is my child's privacy. I don't necessarily want other people to get an idea of my kid as one way or another. So I think it's assessing the culture, assessing comfort level, asking yourself also some counterbalancing questions like, would I be hesitating if this was a physical illness? Right. Exactly. Even just creating that trust with a manager and being open and honest about what you're going through. I feel like only can help ultimately but it's really difficult to do and I think there's sometimes you catch yourself saying something you wish you didn't say and I'm curious if you have any almost like mistakes to avoid or what not to say in these conversations or anything that you would be more hesitant to convey right off the bat.

17:33Sometimes when we're in distress we overshare mmm because we are off guard a little bit. And so I think watching that tendency is important, but I do think it's okay to say, my child has been diagnosed with, you know, XYZ, my child has XYZ and I am supporting him or her or them. And hopefully you can then expect the employer to say, okay, now how can we support you? And that's the goal. That's the anonymous email to my boss that we included in the ripple effect report was very clear. The woman's POV was, you support me so I can support them and then I can turn around and bring my best to work.

18:21And I thought that was so powerfully communicated in that piece. The anonymous email that Marty just referred to really does embody the fact that mothers managing their child's mental health are giving work everything they can under the difficult circumstances they're in. And I wish I'd asked Marty to read it while we were speaking, but I'll just read from it now before we go to an ad break, and then we'll get back into the conversation with her. Dear Employer, I wish you knew what a heavy load I carry right now as a working mom of two young kids. Life is completely unpredictable, and the kids need me constantly, which is a huge drain.

19:00Propel fitness water with Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar and vitamins. Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade electrolytes. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com slash podcast.

19:38That's indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. My time and my sanity. Please know that I am doing my best. I try to bring my whole self to work every day. And if for some reason I can't do that or have to be away, please check in with me to see how I'm doing and ask how you can help. Don't hear me say that I'm drowning in work and life and throw me more. Let's instead talk about a reasonable workload that allows me to be there for my family and all of their needs. Please allow for time off for unexpected emergencies. That doesn't take away from our hard-earned vacation time pool.

20:19Allow for generous definitions of what sick time could mean. Be flexible with calls from office waiting rooms, calls in the car, and kid noise in the background. Support the employee and allow us to support our families so that we can in turn give more of ourselves in full to everything we do, including work. Okay, that's the email. We'll be right back. You know, I had a colleague tell me that they were sorting out a developmental issue with their child, and therefore their schedule was going to be unpredictable for the next few months. And I thought that was an interesting way to share it. I think truly she didn't know yet what kind of support she would need.

21:02But at the moment, what she needed was grace from her team. And, you know, I'll admit I was curious. I wanted to ask more questions. I didn't. I respected her privacy. But it was specific enough that I knew what she needed. And it also, I think, protected her child's privacy, which, as you say, is important. And her child's young. You know, I have a dear friend who has a teenager who has some mental health issues. And there was a crisis that occurred. And I didn't hear from her for a few days, which is very odd. And when she finally reached out, she just said, this is not my story to tell. But what you need to know is I'm supporting him right now.

21:38And this is someone who I know so well. I was like, why aren't you telling me? And she just was very clear, like, it's his story to tell, not mine. And so I really wanted to respect that. And I do think it's different if we are the one who has the issue. And then we get to make the choice. It's another layer of decision making to decide whether to share the story or the details. And I think the caution to not overshare is an important one because I think for, I know Erica and I are both oversharers, and I think that would be our instinct, especially in a crisis moment. When we first started investigating the overlap between children's mental health and the workplace, there was an executive level meeting among the funding partners and somebody just asked the question in an executive boardroom around a mahogany table, how many of you in this room have been affected by an issue related to child's mental health, you know, close to you?

22:36And, you know, eight out of 10 hands went up. Yeah. That's no detail. That's no privacy breakdown, but it is solidarity. And it is the realization that this is one of those topics similar to things like infertility that we don't talk about. And then once somebody breaks open the topic, the flood comes out of, we went through that too. My sister's going through that. I've heard of that. I think that it's a stigma, the cap of which I hope is about to come off. But maybe it stops short of, like you said, sharing someone else's story per se. Yeah. Yeah. I have a number of friends right now going through just the initial diagnoses, like trying to get therapists, trying to find support for their children.

23:28And, of course, these places are only open during work hours, so they're trying to find the time to call in between meetings. And the reality of that is just so difficult. And I'm wondering if there's really any advice or anything that you would want to say to these people who are really trying to get help for their children. Hey, it's Kelly Rowland. You may not know this, but I have eczema, so I get how it can steal your time. But why let eczema take over when you can talk to your doctor about eczema? Ebglis Lubrikizumab LBKZ, a 250 milligram per two milliliter injection, is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema.

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24:45and are struggling with trying to fit that into their work life right now. I think it comes down to the word I might hate the most when it comes to talking about moms and work, which is juggling. But I think there's a tendency to think, I have to hide that I'm making this call right now. And in some workplaces, you truly might have to. I think that's why so many people changed or adjusted jobs in the last two years and cited this as one of the reasons. We had one specific respondent tell us that they got chastised for taking a call in the middle of the day related to their child's mental health and they made a job change.

25:28Yeah. And are there employers who have implemented policies that assist parents with like finding the professional help or giving them the space they need? Like what I would love to share with our listeners are the employers who are actually doing these things right or at least moving in the right direction. Do you have examples of those? Personally on our sleeves we have five corporate partners who've leaned in with us on this initiative in particular and they have helped us by piloting the digital resources that we created for working parents to educate these parents on child mental health and they let us collect pre and post data on the pilots.

26:08And what we see is that we are able to move the needle on parental confidence with these courses. I came out feeling more confident that I can handle a mental health issue or question from my child than I went in. That's incredible. They are not just for parents. They're for any caregiver or anyone trying to relate to a child. And they are a series of short videos and micro courses on a digital platform that you can interact with, answer some questions about the child in your life and your own self as a caregiver and then be directed to either a set of courses that we call flourish which are for families and children where things are basically developing normally but you might want to build some proactive skills to meet stress and mental health challenges so these are things like practicing mindfulness or building a gratitude habit into your day-to-day then we have a set of courses that the system might direct you to for manage.

27:03If you have a mental health diagnosis for a kid in your life, this is where you'd find that course on how to balance work and therapy and videos on specific conditions. And then at the end, there is a short module for if you have a child you believe to be approaching crisis. And in that particular module, we partnered with the Center for Suicide Prevention and Research at Nationwide Children's Hospital. And it's so critical that a parent who's wavering on the edge of that concern here directly to the camera from a doctor asking your child if they're having thoughts of harming themselves or committing suicide does not give the child that idea.