Brutal Business Lessons From Child Star JoJo Siwa | with Celebrity Endorsements & Creating a Personal Brand

0:28Today, Jojo Siwa. child star that I think we rarely get to see. This is the room where it happened. First-hand accounts from behind closed doors in business, inside the rooms, understanding the pressure and crucially asking what should you do when it's your turn at the table. Let's do it then. Brought to you by IFS. This is the room where it happened with Jojo Siwa.

0:55So Jojo, what is the room that you want to take us into? When I first signed a Nickelodeon, I first signed a Nickelodeon and I went to a meeting. And her name is Pam. She's who was the, I don't know if she's still at the company. I'm sure she is. But she was basically the head of products at Nickelodeon. And she, we're going into a meeting with a store. Oh, I'm sorry. We had a big meeting and it was because the first product was going into a store and it was a t-shirt injustice. justice. And Pam said in that meeting, she said, this isn't a direct quote, but it was along the lines of, if his shirt doesn't sell, nothing else will.

1:34And so like, this is the test. And prior to this meeting, she had told my mom, like, we're going to have a meeting, but we don't want Jojo there. And my mom said, absolutely not. She said, it's Jojo's thing. Jojo's going to be there. And so then Pam said that in the meeting. And she said, this is why I didn't want you in the meeting because I have to be honest like this. And I said, I want you to, like, I want you to be, I want to know that. Because then if all of a sudden there's no other products, nobody told me that this one shirt, there was so much riding on this one shirt. Luckily, the shirt did very good.

2:03But I don't know, I think, I think it just kind of, it took people a second to warm up to me. But then I think your reputation in the industry can build really fast and also crumble really fast. And I think word travels. I think once people realized that, yeah, I was 12 in the beginning, but I could sit in a boardroom. I could handle a meeting. I would talk. I wouldn't play on my phone. I wouldn't be silly. I wouldn't run around. Like, I cared to be there. You know what I mean? So when you're in these meetings and you're a teenager, not a fully grown adult, are you aware of how other people are perceiving having a kid in there?

2:39I was always aware. I'm always aware in any room, right? I'm aware in a room if I'm the only female. I'm aware in the room if I'm the only adult. I'm aware in the room if I'm the only young adult. You know what I mean? I think that's very important to know your place. Otherwise, you're just going to be an annoying teenager, right? Those adults don't want to be in a meeting with a teenager. No, they're there to do business. So I have to match up to their level. You know, and I think I was kind of always aware of that. So what was your role in those meetings? To be Jojo Siwa. Tell them what to do.

3:06And would you? Of course. Different breed at 14. You learn respect at when I was 17. Yeah, okay. Right. And did you feel listened to? I did. I did. Early on, it was kind of harder to speak up. But then once people realized, oh, she knows. She knows what works. She knows what's going to do good. She's involved. Then it was, what do you think? What should we do? What do you like? What's your favorite thing? Then it was more so, yeah. But I held my own. You walk into a meeting, and if I'm a kid that sits outside of the waiting room, they're not going to speak to me. if you walk into a meeting and you walk up to the first person you see and you say hi I'm Jojo what's your name and they say oh hi I'm Sarah nice to meet you shit who's this kid yeah impressions baby yes so interesting because as a parent I sometimes say to my daughter especially don't be too over the top yeah and actually now I think maybe you should like be well no because if I walked in the room and I said hi I'm Jojo Siwa I'm so happy to be here meeting with her they'd be like shut the fuck up so the Jojo Siwa that we were seeing was slightly different to the Jojo Siwa that they were getting.

4:12Yeah, of course, that one's boring. Come on, you don't want business, Georgia Siwa. And was it your mom that had made the decision in the early days for you to be involved in everything? Or was it a decision that you made? I think both of us together. I think there was no... I have a very good mom, right? And she wasn't ever going to not include me in something that was for me. You know what I mean? And same way now that I could be doing everything on my own, but I wouldn't not include her. It's almost like we switched seats. And when you're there, You know, my 12-year-old daughter's here today because she was excited to meet you, right?

4:44I imagine Flo sitting in a meeting where someone says, right, if this thing fails, there is nothing else. Right. I could imagine that overwhelming and derailing her, right? How did that not happen to you? Or maybe it did happen to you. No, it didn't at all. My mentality goes, all right, well, then let's make it sell. You know what I mean? Like, that was just how I was. I said, I'm going to wear it every day. I'm going to make sure that shirt sells. It's not for everybody, though. It really isn't. Being a child star, I think as I'm getting older, I'm realizing more and more what it is, right? And what goes into it.

5:17And it's a lot. It's hard. It's very, very hard. Very, very tough. And it's cutthroat and it's thick. And it's, there's no book on how to do it, right? But I think I had a good concoction of the right kid mentality and the right mom. If you haven't already subscribed, please do right now. It means you don't miss an episode of The Room Where It Happened. and it helps us attract the brightest and best new brains to the show. Well, let's talk then about one of the most popular things that you've ever done, something that for a long time really was your trademark, which was the bows, right? Yes. So you're someone who at a young age loves the whole idea of algorithm.

5:54You love, there's this great phrase, right, success leaves clues. Yeah. I love that because you're looking for the clues. Yeah. For the success. So when you now look back on the success of the Jojo Bow, and I don't know whether you probably wouldn't even know the exact number, but I read online 40, 50, 60 million bows sold around the world. Is it 90? Over 90, yeah. That was the number back in like 2018. So it's probably over 100 million. Let's say over 100 million bows. I'll say that number. You don't need to. Have you looked at why that popped? Because this is what everyone's looking for. Everyone wants to be the next prime.

6:29In fact, today walking here, I walked past this Labubu. Have you heard of Labubu? Yeah. I walked past the store with Florence this morning and the queue was insane out the door. And she's like, oh, everyone's queuing for La Boo Boo. She knew all about it. I've had KSI in this room talking about Prime and the success of Prime. Everybody wants to find the thing that captures the imagination of the planet and you did it. So what was it about the bow that just worked? What are the ingredients we should all be looking for if we want something to go? You know what I think it is? I think a lot of people go, what's successful?

7:02How do they do it? And how can I do it? And that's very fair. Very, very fair. But I think I never did that. I think I went, what do I have? And I think the bows for me just made sense. They made sense to sell. I was on TV, right? And I could have sold anything. I could have sold bracelets. I never wore a bracelet. But bracelets are trendy. Taylor Swift is a great example. She could sell anything. Obviously, she's Taylor Swift. but her bracelets would be so much more successful than if she sold a bow. It wouldn't make sense for her to sell a bow, but friendship bracelets are the thing for her.

7:39You know what I mean? So think how many she would sell. I think for me, the bow was the thing. I did wear it every day. It was my life. I did genuinely love it. People saw it. People liked it. So authenticity. I think authenticity, yeah. And I think that everyone is unique in that. You know what I mean? Like, it's just, it's the more time you spend wondering how people are successful, the less time you'll spend being successful. And I think you just got to kind of, even if you do the wrong thing, you got to put one foot in front of the other and just try. Because you know, especially with today's world, it's different now.

8:12It was different then. Now, success, unfortunately or fortunately, is based off of TikTok. Labubu. Why is Labubu successful? Not because kids are in school. They're trendy over the summer. No one's in school trading their Labubus, right? Like they are with their lunch boxes or their water bottles. Disgusting. keep your water bottle to yourself. But think about it. Why are they popular? TikTok. Think about a movie. Why is a movie popular? Because it becomes a trend on TikTok to go dress up as a thing and go to a movie. People are writing songs for TikTok. I just said, I was like, why am I writing three-minute songs?

8:45They don't get streams on Spotify, but I do it on TikTok and it gets millions. I should write one-minute song and put them on TikTok. You know what I mean? Anything, anything nowadays that's popular is because of that platform, which, I mean, it's kind of fascinating. It's absolutely fascinating. And you've seen the change. I guess one of the big things. Even like restaurants. Sorry, not to cut you off. Think about restaurants. Think about if somebody goes, where should I go for London and for a restaurant? They're going to Google or they're not going to Google anymore. They're going to go on TikTok and be like trendy restaurants in London.

9:13You know what I mean? It's fascinating. And I think this is why I was so keen to talk to you because you started off in a world where you basically needed a record label. You needed a PR company. You needed a manager. You needed some people to do your brand deals. We're now entering this world, for someone like you who's a creator, I wouldn't say you're a musician, you're a creator, right? Whatever comes your way. Yeah, I say entertainer because I'm a little bit of both. You're an entertainer, right. Yeah. So you're in a world where really you have so much more control now over your own world.

9:42Yeah. Would you take us into some of the mechanics of how this stuff works? Because what we get to see as the public is the top 1 % of this stuff. We see the bows for sale. We see the songs in the charts. Yeah. We see the tours and we can buy tickets or the TV shows. I'd love to go a bit deeper with you about like, how do these deals come to pass? How many people are you talking to about whether it's the right or the wrong deal? Like what are the real mechanics of something like the Nickelodeon deal, for example? I mean, there's a food chain, right? So it goes from at that age, from me to my mom, my mom to my manager, or my mom to my attorney.

10:19And then my attorney to Nickelodeon's attorney. And then Nickelodeon's attorney to the head of talent. and then the head of talent to everything at Nickelodeon. So that's the head of licensing, the music department. I have everything over there. And so it's a bit of a little bit of a food chain. You have a good team, right? I have a very, very good lawyer, very good lawyer who has been with me through everything. And he makes sure that I stay safe and I stay protected and I don't enter any deals that I shouldn't. And he very much so looks out for me. I mean, he's a great guy. I give a lot of my credit to my mom.

10:54Because she kept me safe. She kept a good eye on me, right? And she didn't let anybody mess or affect with anything in my career. But it's complicated. There's a lot of people. And there's a lot of things that most things, almost everything, I had zero approval over, right? Especially when it comes to the merchandising world. So like any clothing that went out, I didn't see it before. There was clothing where I had brown hair in it. Who photoshopped that? There was dolls that had piggy buns. And I used to go on online rants being like, I never approved this. Don't go buy it. And because I would get mad.

11:27And it was a learning curve because I think for a little bit, I can respect that Nickelodeon had never worked with a live human before. And I can respect that I never worked with a big network before, right? And so meeting in the middle, not everything was run by me. And it was such a big empire that it couldn't be run by me, right? Not everything could. But it was hard. there was these big learning curves of how can we make sure this doesn't happen? How can we make sure that you're not just selling a doll, you're selling a real child's face, right? Like, it has to be authentic to her. It has to look like her.

12:01She has to be happy with it. What answer did you find for how you can have more control? Honestly, giving up a little bit of control. You can adjust how it affects you, though. You can adjust how you feel about things. You can adjust what triggers you. And so I think that, for me, helped me. And as your fame grew, and we're talking not just US or UK fame, we're talking global fame at this point, how did that sit with you from a kind of mental health perspective? I think it's still growing, you know what I mean? I think that that definitely still is developing, and I'm still learning, and I'm still now.

12:40Now I'm at an age where I can see a nine-year-old, and to me, a nine-year-old is a child, right? And to me, a 14-year-old is a child. Whereas two years ago, a 14-year-old was just somebody who's a little younger than me. You know what I mean? But now, I think I'm getting older. I'm kind of realizing more so what my life was like compared to the average teenager's life. And yeah, I think that it's just what I know. So what was the cost now that you can look back? I mean, your childhood. You know what I mean? You give up going to the playground. You give up making dumb mistakes. You give up sneaking out.

13:18You give up fun little jobs after school. You give up school. I never realized how much you missed out on school until I had my first girlfriend who went to school. And I would see her with her friends, and I would see her do homework, and I thought it was cool. Like, obviously, you take that for granted when you're in school. You think, God, this sucks. But as somebody who didn't have it, it's cool. It's really cool. Like, it's cool to be a senior and own the school. You know, it's cool. From a business perspective, as a young person who can now reflect on what went on in that time. What's the business move that you're most proud of in that early period?

13:52I think that was actually a conversation that when I first came to Nickelodeon, they said, well, what does high school JoJo look like? And I said, I'm 14. I am high school JoJo. They said, no, no, but what does older grown-up JoJo look like? And I said, I can't tell you. I'm a human. I can't tell you what I'm going to look like in two years from now. And so, yeah, I mean, look, I had a massive kids' empire, and it was incredible. And I could still be doing it. I could still be on Dreamlet Tour. I could still be making YouTube videos. But I'm so happy that I'm not because I feel like now I'm old enough to where I can confidently say that that is on a shelf and I'm looking at it and it's absolutely beautiful.

14:32And that's it. There's no chance now of that not being successful. It is successful. It worked. I did it. I achieved what I wanted to achieve. And now I'm far enough away from it where I look back at it. And I don't think anymore like, oh, I wish I could do it. Oh, I wish I could be successful. Oh, I wish I could make a go of things. I look back and I think, I did it. I really did it. Everything I wanted to do, I did it. You know what I mean? It feels so like fulfilling. Do you remember the moment that you thought, right, I'm going to look different now to the public. I'm ready for a change. no it kind of just like developed over time it it really did even like just slowly but surely I remember on my 18th birthday I was like do I want to wear a bow then I was like I really don't and that was kind of like a first but but was that a little bit scary well not really I mean it's life like it's like but it's also a big business and I think of like the day that you are like right I don't want to be this anymore it's not just your decision this is lawyers global offices, international sales.

15:38It was, but it was a business built off of authenticity. And the second that I was wearing the bow and didn't want to anymore, it wasn't authentic anymore. And so the business would have crumbled, you know what I mean, if it would have become fake. And even though I don't wear a bow anymore, that doesn't mean that I don't love it. That doesn't mean that I don't stand behind it. That doesn't mean that I'm erasing every... Because also, the internet, everything's still out there. So I'm still wearing a bow right now. Most kids don't even realize that I look like this. I love walking by five-year-olds on the street.

16:08This happens genuinely more often than you would think. Little kids watching a JoJo video on their phone. Little kids wearing a JoJo bow, JoJo backpack. Little kids talking to their parents about JoJo Siwa. I'm standing right next to them. They will never know it's me. When you first released a very different music video and a very different single to the one that you were famous for, can you tell us kind of what happens in the background before that moment? because the people who are part of the traditional Jojo empire, surely there has to be a moment where you say, listen, everyone, things are about to change.

16:43Yeah. No, honestly, don't give anyone a heads up. You don't ask for permission. You ask for forgiveness on that one. So all these people that are part of the empire, are they just taken by surprise by this? Honestly. Honestly, yeah. Yeah, but I had to do it, right? Because I was not taken as an adult. I wasn't looked at by friends as an adult. My family as an adult, I mean my immediate family, yes, but my extended family, no. And especially not by the public. I would go and record a song, and this song would be incredible, but it would be a little bright. And I'd be like, people will say I'm singing a toddler song, you can't do it.

17:20I was too young. And so I had to run. I had to run, and I had to make a very large smackdown on I am not a baby, I'm not a kid. And yeah, I didn't give anybody a heads up. It was fun. It was a moment. We all do something. How do you reflect on it? Honest. Right before I posted the first teaser for my song Karma, I hadn't really done anything like that yet. I was always still very family-friendly, very wholesome. And as I did, I walked across the street. I was living in Atlanta at the time, and I walked across the street to Starbucks, and I was like, oh, my God. I was like, what am I doing? What am I doing?

18:02I'm stupid. But I couldn't call it off at this point because it was already done. Videos already filmed. And what caused that fear at that moment? I'm throwing away everything I have. I'm throwing away my entire career for a risk. I'm throwing away this beautiful, wholesome life that I know to make a splash and become an adult and cross over that bridge. But instead of crossing the bridge, I'm diving into the water trying to swim to the other island, right? And I'm still treading water in the middle trying to get to that other island. But I just dove in. and I go to Starbucks. I'm like, this is horrible.

18:34I was like, I'm doing this to mothers with kids and their kids are going to see this. And what, why am I doing this? I love kids. Why am I doing this to the kids? Now they're not going to be able to like JoJo. And I made sure that I separated it all. Right. And I had JoJo Siwa kids and then I have JoJo Siwa. So that way kids who are on Spotify, right. They are not listening to the kids music. Then all of a sudden stumble upon karma. And I, that's my nightmare. I never wanted that to happen. And so I made sure I separated it at all. But all of a sudden, I was just having this moment and I walked into Starbucks and this mom comes up to me and she was like, hey, my daughter loves you.

19:08Do you mind if she comes and says hi? And I was like, yeah, totally. Like totally. And mind you, I'm in the worst mood because I'm like, what am I doing? And I look over this little girl. She's about two or three years old. She has a Jojo Bowen. And I'm just like, this is my sign. I have to call it off. I can't do it. I cannot do this. I cannot. I cannot do this. What am I doing? and the mom goes over to the little girl and she's like, look who that is. Forgive my French here for a second and daughter that's listening out there, cover your ears for a second. But the two-year-old or three-year-old goes, Jojo fucking Siwa!

19:43And I was so caught off guard. Two years old. And I said, I'm sorry, what? She goes, mom, mom, it's Jojo fucking Siwa! And I was like, and the mom was like, I'm so sorry. I'm so embarrassed. I was like, you don't even know. I was like, I'm having this catastrophe today about how I'm changing my career for these little kids. And this little kid just came up to me and just said the most adult thing ever. And I was like, I think it's a sign from up above that like, it's okay. What was the reaction like from the people in the JoJo empire that hadn't been told what was happening when they finally realized what was happening?

20:19Most people liked it. But were there not awkward conversations with Bo distributors and the people that are responsible for your kind of previous career, if you like. Honestly, that's what they get for not letting me in on those conversations anyways. Because I never got to be included on those conversations. And so they kind of... What do you mean, those conversations? Like with the bow distributor, right? With the toy makers, right? It always was... Nickelodeon was a strong metal man and they never let the bridges cross. And I always wished I would. I always wanted to meet with the clothing designers and the toy makers and the bow makers and they never would let me.

20:53And so when it came time for those awkward conversations, they had handled them. I didn't. So was there a part of you actually that with this, because it was... But I also was allowed to. Like I didn't do it when I was still a child star. I did it. Karma came out when I was essentially 21. It was a few months before my 21st birthday. I'm old. I can do whatever I want at that point. You know what I mean? If I would have done it at 18, I'm still under a thick Nickelodeon contract. Different story. Only thing under contract still was my merchandise. And so even though I still was seemed, this is what I mean, I seemed to be a very young career and a very young, but at the same time, I am an adult.

21:31You know what I mean? And I wanted to be that. Can we talk about the public reaction to the move as well? Because people hate change. Yeah. Did you realize how resistant to change human beings were until you went through this period? Yeah. I mean, people have been mean to me for forever. So I don't think I was really caught off guard by it. I was more caught off guard by like just like things that happened internally with people that I was working with that I didn't find out about until later. And I don't need to shove anybody under the rug, but it's interesting. Just always know that people will say one thing to your face and another behind your back.

22:08And if you're somebody that's saying something behind a back, it's always going to come out. And I think that that's hard to navigate. People having a fun reaction, that's not hard to navigate. Laugh with them. So those people that you might have trusted, what type of things were they saying? Oh, yeah. I mean, I remember, I'll talk about this one. Somebody who should have been the most supportive of my music career when it comes to music and developing me as an artist and that type of thing, found out that he said, because SNL did a parody skit on Karma. And he said that that was embarrassing and that I should be ashamed of it.

22:49and I what do you mean? It was on SNL that's a mad that is an honor that means that enough people know about it for them to poke at it that's that's flattering you know what I mean? that's a it's a it's a it's it's weird to say that it's an honor to be mocked but on SNL Saturday Night Live it's an honor to be mocked you know what I mean? and so I don't know I think that some people just some people just are snakes from a marketing perspective whether people loved or didn't love it. Do you think it worked because it got... I mean, I don't think there's been a rebranding in the last two years more talked about than yours.

23:26Thank you. I think it absolutely did work. I think it worked because I had fun. You know, I'm trying to... I think because I have... I love talking about my shelf now in my childhood career. I have this thing on this shelf that I look at and I go, that worked. That was successful. I did it. I'm not... For a while, I was chasing that, and I was trying to match that and be that again and find that success again. But I've given that up because what's the point? That worked. That's done. You know what I mean? I don't want that. I don't want to mess with that success. I want to leave that on the shelf, and I want to dust it off and make sure it looks pretty.

24:04But I want to leave it. I don't want to break it. And so I think now, it worked not because of the numbers behind it, but it worked because I had a good time. I had a good laugh. I'm going to tell my kids about it one day. So what happened that made you realize this reinvention isn't actually really who I am? I would put a million dollars on you. You will never guess what I'm about to tell you. My house almost burned down. And that made me crack. I don't know why. I don't know what. But it was the California fires, the ones that just happened. And my house, it was on this side of the mountain.

24:37It climbed up the mountain. And it was right at the top of the mountain. And it could have come down super quickly. But they luckily stopped it. But I had to evacuate. and had to pull all my things out of the house. And I went down to my parents' house in Palm Springs and I was there and I just broke. We were planning on doing a new music video for this incredible song. And the song never came out because I put it all on hold. And the music video was supposed to have fire in it. And it was supposed to be like me lighting things on fire. Bit of arson. And I called the video off because I was like, we cannot do arson right now.

25:11Like there's, my house is about to burn down. There's these horrible fires that are destroying lives. Like, we cannot do arson right now. What am I thinking? And so I called the video off. I paused it on that. And then I got off the phone and I was like, what am I just thinking in general? What am I doing? And it just, I mean, it was like a week-long crisis spiral of just like, I need to find it. So how would you now describe Jojo Zewa and the place she's in? Honestly, I'm in a place right now that is my favorite place I've ever been in life. I'm sitting back and I'm enjoying it. I'm going on this tour, right, over here in the UK.

25:49And I'm not overthinking it. I'm not stressed about it. I'm excited about it. Whereas before, I would be so worried about, will this be good enough, right? Will people like this? Will I do good, right? Does it matter? Stuff like that. And I'm just in a place where I'm like, I'm just so excited. I'm doing what I love. So who's in this sort of team now? Are you? It's literally my mom and I. Is it? No record labels, no managers. No record labels, no managers. I have a brand deal manager who brings me some stuff for social media. I have my mom, who I would say is my manager. But yeah, no managers.

26:27I am sorry to an agent. I've been with CAA for my, God, probably like eight years. I've been with them for forever. I have my lawyer. I have my publicist. And I have my videographer. That's it. No social media manager, nothing. See, this is what's really fascinating for me now from a business perspective. If you wanted to do what you want to do now, 20 years ago, the first thing they would have said is, well, we'd better get you a record deal. Without a record deal, you had no voice. You had no power. The world has shifted now. It's shifted. Totally towards. Being in a record deal was probably, again, one of those things where it was right because it got me here.

27:08But it was, if I could go back in time and if I could—actually this, I would not do it differently myself. But if somebody said, hey, here's where I'm at in life, and they were right where I was, what should I do? I would say, stay independent. Do not sign to a record label. Do not do it. Because you're—even if you're in control, you're not in control. You're waiting around for more people. Be in your own driver's seat. So my daughter, who's here today, sings, dances, performs, wants to be on the stage, wants to be on the screen. Yeah. What's your advice for someone like that who's emerging into this very different creator economy now?

27:50Yeah, it's very different now. I think, honestly, for musicians, if you're assigned to a label right now, they will not do anything with you until you're viral on TikTok. So go off with the label system because you can go viral on TikTok on your own and then you're in complete control on your own. But that's a struggle. That's a really bad struggle right now for a lot of artists. And artists who are signed to labels go, how are we going to promote my music? How are we going to get my music on the radio? And they say, oh, well, when it goes viral on TikTok, we'll talk. You need to get your song to go viral on TikTok before we release it.

28:25Otherwise, we won't release it. It's a very hard system to be in. So unfortunately, if I had to give somebody advice who wants to be a musician, it would be to sing on TikTok. Content creators? Just start posting. No one can do your stuff better than you can, right? No one can do it as well as you can. And it's not easy. The best content creators make it look easy, which is why it gives the illusion of anybody can do it. Anybody can do it, but the consistency, the quality, the knowledge of what will perform well. Anybody can make a video, yeah. But what on? It will exactly. You have to know that, you know what I mean?

29:06And so my dad always will say to my mom, like, oh, all you do is you're on social media for eight hours a day. And my mom was like, yeah, but I'm knowing what's going on right now. It's that way I can be better at, you know what I mean? It's complicated. It's very complicated, but it's consistency, immersing yourself in it and caring. Don't do it because it looks easy. You know what I mean? Nothing's easy. Nothing's easy. so if you were 20 years behind and you were emerging now right in the modern creator economy as jojo see what yep what would you be doing am i 22 or am i nine again you're nine again i'm nine again well i wouldn't be on social media because you can't be till you're 13 so we'll say i'm 13 again okay god i see what i had wouldn't work anymore well it doesn't work on social media the way it is anymore and so it's it's not long-form youtube videos anymore it's short and it's TikTok so I don't know I mean I would look the same but I would just be doing whatever's trending but in my own Jojo-y way I don't know god I don't know but this is what I think is interesting and people don't talk about luck often enough in business or in life if the greatest footballer was born 300 years ago before football was invented he's not the greatest footballer we've ever known if the best AI programmer was born in 1980 you're screwed you're screwed because you're too early for your thing.

30:29Like, I think luck and timing is absolutely integral. It felt like you had that. You had the moment. It's all, it all, it all is, you get what you create, right? And it doesn't, you don't just wake up and it boom magically happens. The best footballer isn't born the best footballer. God, no, he's born a baby. Yeah, sure, you got some natural talent, but I guarantee if you take a kid that's a naturally talented football player, what, can you catch a ball and run? incredible can he kick a ball around i was thinking american football for a second i'll let you have that but we're talking english football um yeah you can anybody can kick a ball and run sure that makes you a talented football player right but the the most talented football player is the most talented football player because he trained and he worked really hard to it he didn't just all of a sudden be 30 one day and go i'm amazing no god no that started when he was three.

31:25You know what I mean? And we work towards that. And so, I don't know. I get what you're saying of forever ago, but AI didn't even exist forever ago, right? And so there was no way to know that this person was going to be this. And I think you have to figure out in this world right now, today, what am I good at? How can I make a difference? Because you don't get a change when you live. So were you successful then because of hard work, because of talent, or because of luck? All three. Absolutely all three. 100 % all three. Luck without the talent and the hard work to back it up would never work.

32:00Talent without the hard work and the luck would never work. And hard work without the talent and without the luck would never work. Hard work and luck could go together. Talent and luck could go together. But all three will go together. And boom. And boom. There's one big thing, though, that the creator economy has given people like you, which you didn't have before. If we rewind 20 years, right? You release a song. If it sells, everyone loves it. If it doesn't, then you release a different song. Now you can release something. And not only do you know whether it's sold, you know exactly what people think of it.

32:36I mean, the like and the dislike button on YouTube. It's crazy. It's probably caused more mental health challenges for artists and creators than most things. The fact that people can, anyone could just leave a comment. And I did look at some of the comments under your two most recent videos on the way here. And I thought, how does a human being cope with that? You turn it off at night and you find what's real in front of you. And you embrace that because it's brutal. It is brutal, but I'm very lucky. I have a good family. I have a perfect boyfriend. I get to turn it off at night and turn to good.

33:10And that's not the situation for everybody, but I'm lucky that that's mine. And was the reaction to your rebrand not hard? because what I was thinking is that everything you did as JoJo worked. The bows, the songs, the tools, they all sold, everyone loved it. Then you bring out something new, it's a very different reaction. This is what's interesting is yes and no. People see everything worked. Zero the case. Absolutely not. There are so many things that did not work. I had an app that did not work. I had loads of products that did not work. I had songs that did not work. I had videos that did not work.

33:47Oh my God, the amount of times I would put a video up and take it down in an hour because it was tanking. I wouldn't even give it a chance. So it did not work. So many things did not work. But now in future, right, you look back and you go, God, that was incredible. Well, at the time, it was really difficult. You know what I mean? It was really hard. But you look back and you just remember the good of it. And so I think that's a thing for right now. Like there's even things in the karma era, right, that we did that did not work. there were songs that I did that did not work, but they're still out there.

34:19And so I don't know. I think that, like, you just, that's to me where I'm learning, like, it's so much more about, like, internal passion and fire than it is about, like, numbers. See, I love the phrase, what's hard for you isn't necessarily bad for you. Like, those moments were hard for you, right? When you struggled or you failed when you were young. No, it's good. And they weren't bad for you. Because when you had this kind of moment of public criticism and derision, your skill had been built in those early times. And if it no longer served you, the public eye life, would you just be happy to go, do you know what, I've had a great run, but I'm going to do something else?

34:54God, yeah, absolutely. I think there's no escaping it, you know what I mean? I will always be what I am. I will always go down the street and people will always say, oh, you're this, that, you know what I mean? And people have that if they do one TV show, one episode, they'll still be getting, you know what I mean? they've done a lot you know what I mean but I yeah I think I don't I don't I can't speak for future me but I yeah I think I'm sure I'm sure I'll go through phases what would you at the moment what does the future look like well I think there's beautiful kids in the future I think there's a beautiful family you've mentioned that a few times I sense a broody Jojo Siwa here yeah yep very much so I yeah I want to be a mom I've wanted to be a mom since I was like 11 for forever I've always loved I loved little kids.

35:42And now I'm like the age where it's like actually getting realistic. You know what I mean? So I get more excited. When I have a family, I want to just live and just be happy. I've had so much good life that, yeah, whatever comes my way, I want to have fun with and just enjoy. And are you glad that you're not on the kind of constant treadmill now that you used to be as a kid? No, I'm on a different treadmill. I'm on the same. I'm still going. It feels as relentless as it always is. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Nothing's slowed down. No way. Oh, God. It's gotten harder as you get older. Absolutely, because you get more aware of it.

36:18And that's not exhausting. It is. It absolutely is, but you do it anyways. Brilliant. Look, what an interesting conversation. I think, like, what I really enjoy about this is you did something totally incredible, right? And people might have thought that you were on the edges of that incredible thing. But actually, the truth is, and it's emerged through this chat, you were at the center of it. Your mum put you at the center of it. She did. Which then meant when you had to rebrand, when you'd had enough of being the character that had been created for you, you had to be at the center of it again.

36:52And I actually thought before this conversation that maybe I was going to meet someone that was a bit broken by what happened in the last few years with some of the criticism and like the Saturday Night Live thing. For me, watching it, it felt like bullying. Maybe it felt different for you. But I thought that you might have been damaged by what's happened. But actually, I think that you've learned a huge amount. Yeah, I mean, look, I could be very easily. But I think the more you can enjoy something, the better. I mean, there's so much more good in the world than there is bad. Look at your daughter.

37:25She comes in here and she has the biggest smile on her face. She can't even hold the clapper near me because she's so excited. You know what I mean? Like, that's the reason why I'm happy. Because that means so much more than what any bully would ever say, ever. your relationship now is very interesting because you've got two people, I guess, are in a kind of similar space. Yeah. But they've done things very different, at very different ages. Yeah. So have you been able to offer any advice? We both help each other. We both are really good at being there for each other, helping each other, giving advice when advice is asked.

38:00I think that's a big thing, especially with a partner, especially with two people who are in, both kind of in the same workspace, but very different. only give advice if you are asked to give advice otherwise give respect give support otherwise it's going to feel i know more than you know he tells me you don't need to be doing everything you don't need to be doing things that aren't you're not supposed to do you know he just he really keeps me on my rails being intentional yeah and the final question um i remember you saying once i can never imagine a time when i don't wear a bow yeah and you were kind of wedded to your beliefs.

38:35Yeah. I feel throughout this conversation, you are someone who is much more open to not knowing necessarily what the future holds or how you're going to feel about yourself or your life in six months or six years. Yeah. Is that fair? Absolutely fair. I think not only am I open to not knowing, but I'm open to the shore. I'm open to new ideas, right? I'm not so stuck in a ways. That's so exciting. It is. That's where the excitement lies. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Loved it. Nice to meet you, mate. Thank you. Thank you, Jojo. What a fascinating conversation. I mean, that bit where Jojo says, I'm Jojo fucking Siwa.

39:12It's like an insight into the kind of energy that she would have brought to the room in those early days in her career. And I think that, you know, when you've got Jojo and her mum pretty much taking control of their side of the conversation, I would imagine, as she alluded to in the conversation, that at times they weren't the very best deals that she could have landed. But crucially, you have to ask yourself now whether that matters because they were still the deals that made Jojo Siwa one of the most recognizable faces and performers on the planet. You know, obviously my daughter, who we mentioned a few times in the conversation, knows exactly who she is.

39:44But so do all of her friends. So do so many of the parents that we're friends with. And I actually said to Florence on the way here to do this recorded, I said, is Jojo Siwa more or less famous than she was a few years ago? And Florence said something really interesting. She said, people have a different opinion about her than a few years ago. But I think she's probably more famous than ever before. And what about when I said to her, your rebrand caused a lot of people to have a reaction, positive or negative? Her answer to that was, well, that means it's a success. And I think one of the challenges that Jojo is always going to have is that the barometer by which she measures success is how many people are talking about me.

40:20And I think the truth is that that can cost you your mental health. I think it can be draining. I think it can be constant. but actually I feel that the person sitting next to me today, for someone who was a child star, seems so well-rounded, seems finally at ease with the fact that what she did as a young kid, she spoke about her shelf, didn't she, a lot. What she did as a young kid is something that she can now reflect on as an unqualified success and now explore and do something a bit different with her life and I think that she's in a place where that's exactly what she's doing, she's exploring and by her own admission, she's going to get stuff wrong, she's going to get stuff right.

40:57But I think all of us can learn a huge amount from someone that has been there, done it, and literally got the JoJo CY t-shirt. Don't forget, if you want more of these kinds of chats, then all you have to do is hit subscribe. Honestly, it changes the kind of people that we can attract to the show. Please, if you like this, pass it on to someone else who might love hearing this conversation with JoJo. And don't forget, you can also check out the Room Where It Happened newsletter, which is over on LinkedIn, and join the 60 ,000 people who already subscribe to that. but look you've just been in the room where it happened with Jojo Siwa and I'll see you next time