Alexia Putellas: Why the World’s Best Player Left Barcelona for London City? | CEO Explains

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0:36That's no chaos now, no cash left behind later. Skip the showings now, pocket extra profit later. This is so simple now, this is so awesome later. Or sell fast now and pop the champagne later. Cash Now More Later, now available nationwide. Start your offer at opendoor.com slash ACAST. Profits calculated after fees and costs, eligibility and offer price may vary. you're just over a year into the job now aren't you how would you assess where the club is at and the rise of the club I guess in that time yeah thank you for having me it's probably the first thing I've done in in sport where it's not only about winning so the questions you receive in the bar or from your team outside are about you know how you're doing on the pitch did you win what happened at Man City and I think we try and assess where we're going more based against the plan and the vision we have right and I think we're we're on track with that I think we feel very comfortable maybe the best thing is to try and explain like when I first met Michelle she laid out two things that mattered to her and maybe I'll explain that and you can see sort of how far we're on that journey so the first one I think she said to me was she wants to be the person the business the investor that makes a difference to the future for every young girl young woman within sport within football yes but within sport to kind of realize their dreams on and off the pitch so by that she means yeah fantastic we develop a young player who scores the winner at Wembley, that's great, but it's not really about that.

1:59It's about realizing commercial dreams, financial dreams, stuff for their family. It's really important to her. And I remember, you know, a couple of anecdotes would be, she did an interview recently where she said to someone, you really think it's okay that your son in America can go to an elite sporting environment and it's, you know, a mile over there, but your daughter has to drive 25 miles and wait for the boys to finish while they go. And that changing that I think is a big part of her vision. And then I think the second part is she really wants to prove the business model. So the first thing she said to me when we met is this is not a charity.

2:34I'm not doing this to make myself feel better or because I've made money during my business life and I want to spend it. I want to prove the business model that we can be sustainable and that the women's game is financially viable in a way that the men's game is struggling now to deliver. And I think on both those journeys, we feel we're on the path. In men's football, we often see it making headlines for all the wrong reasons. So what would you say you think the women's game should absolutely avoid doing? Yeah, I think first it's important to say like the Premier League is the most incredible business.

3:09Like it's one of the top five exports from the country and it was amazing to be part of it. So they do so many things right, which is a different podcast. I think what matters is like the building of the women's game, if you think about it as a brand, right? It needs to stay clean, it needs to stay inclusive and collaborative and everybody needs to be on the same journey. So I think from what I can see, I'm no longer involved in the men's game. The issue is not necessarily the exact breaches that they've had and the problems they've had, but they're not aligned on exactly where they're going together as a unit.

3:41When I went into the Premier League under Richard Scudamore again, he was on your podcast, wasn't he? That everybody was going in the same direction every day. I think that's a little bit different now. I think the thing the women's game can learn is that collaboration of understanding that you're going together as one core, trying to grow the league and trying to grow everything for the female athletes while still trying to compete. And I think the Premier League did a job of that, which was so good. I've never seen anything like it. And it's probably now not doing that. And understanding that the teams have to be together and winning together and growing together is probably the most important thing.

4:14Is it almost a victim of its own success as well? Because they've got all these regulations in place. We're clearly seeing that play out now with certain cases, which we've talked about a lot. So how are those regulations hindering, do you think? I think you can argue strongly that some of the regulations within the men's game are probably not fit for purpose anymore, but I think you have to understand that they are the regulations. You need to stay within them. So from our perspective in the women's game, we might have a disagreement about what's in place and not in place. It should evolve over time, so what's right now might be different next year.

4:47But you have to, as a collective, stick within those regulations. What I see in the men's game is not, you know, a complete lack of governance or lack of control. But, you know, there are some operators that are maybe moving without those rules in their mind and that might cause you a problem. What would you say is the one thing you've learned from all your years working in men's football that you've been able to bring here? The thing that Premier League got so right was they understood that it was a fan-based audience, right? They understood competitive and compelling, which is make every game great.

5:20Anyone can beat anyone. Every club needs to be powerful. Richard Scudamore, he built that model, which was every club has to be powerful. I remember being in an argument once with one of the big clubs where they were like, well, we need more money because we win. It's like, well, you can't win on your own. You have to play us even if you're going to beat us. So let's make all the clubs strong. They understood the audience were important in the stadium and obviously the product in the TV. They understood that. And I think they invested massively in TV production and making sure the quality is great.

5:49So I think that's a big issue where you've got to transfer it through. So if you are up close watching Alexia Mapilio and Alessio Russo play, it's really an incredible product to watch. I mean, it really is. There's no me selling there. There's no bias. I don't see a difference in level between what I did in the Premier League and what I'm seeing now. The difference is the media exposure, the TV cameras, the ability to see the skills we have. So I think those are things that need to come across from a league-to-league point of view. I think inside a club you know that I learnt from the Premier League is I saw a lot of clubs without a plan we talked a little bit outside about this didn't we which was I saw a podcast where someone was talking about Man United like they never built a foundation before they built a house we see it differently which is you need to be the architect you need to have a plan you need to know where you'll be in seven years time to build the right structure and I think in men's football there was a lot of clubs that were not doing that that were just sort of trying to react to the problem today so we're trying to to map out in front of us a really cool plan of where we're going, what steps we need to take to get there.

6:48And then I think the one thing I learned from my time at Southampton, which was a wonderful club, which is that everybody, like I said, everybody was all in, everybody was going in the same direction. If you try and build a sporting organization that flip-flops on what it is or what it wants to be or who it's for or what its values are, it can break apart very quickly, I think. So we're really clear on our identity. We know why we're here. We're not a charity. We're not doing this to help people out, but we are making a difference. And Michelle wants to be, you know, the person that led the investment that other people will follow.

7:19So all other clubs will go in the direction.

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8:28Obviously, we were talking about Michelle. Most of our listeners know she's invested a lot of money. She's a billionaire, very successful businesswoman. We'll be talking lots about her, but spill the tea. What is she actually like? She's amazing. I don't mind being transparent that I, before I started, I'd done a bit of a study on Canisca and her in my previous role because I was doing something similar in Italy. You know, and I'd heard the stories and I'd seen everything. And then, as you know, I'm sure I was in England in the Premier League for 10 years and then I went to Italy for two years and I really wanted to come home.

8:58And she called me at the end of the season before I came and just said, look, you know, I've got this project going on. Feels like it could be a good fit for you. Do you want to meet? And I was like, oh, I'm not so sure. and I met her and within 40 minutes she convinced me and the thing that I think will give you the biggest insight into her is what she said on that day, it was a very brief lunch in Paris about what her vision was, what she believes and how she's going to behave, what she wants from me is exactly what she said to me at 7.30 this morning. She has not changed her vision she's not changed her view of what she's doing and she's delivered consistently I don't mind revealing also what Alexia said to me the first time I met her, which is I've been tracking Michelle.

9:38And Michelle said to me three, four, five years ago, or at some event, I'm going to do these five things. And Alex has gone, she's done all those five things. So we believe in her. So I'll follow the project. So I think she's consistent. She's a proper business person, not to disparage anybody else in football, but she is a proper businesswoman who's led big businesses and still leading us every day. But she also understands that it's not her job to run the football club. And that was a big trigger for me again transparently she she leaned across the table and went I know you've had problems before you know with owners that have not allowed you to deliver what you're trying to deliver I won't do that it's my vision it's my plan it's my view of the world but you do the work you deliver it and that's consistent I think and that's that's the bit I like the most about her the fact that she's been able to sort of have this vision is it's because you're unique you're not attached to a men's club.

10:28So I guess what are the pros and the cons of that, do you think? I think the pros are probably stronger, but we'll do both. So I always say in interviews that if I looked out of my window now, which obviously were not in my office, every single person in that environment is focused on the women's game. So I was a CEO of a men and a women's team together in the Premier League. And however hard we tried to focus on the women's team, however much effort and finance and time we put into it, it was always a secondary issue. You know, you look at the amazing project that Arsenal women have done. It's an amazing project.

10:59We're all so amazed by it and want to follow it. But some of those players still feel they're a secondary point within an organisation and that's not to disparage Arsenal. It's just really, really difficult. So everything we do every single day is focused on the female athlete, making a female athlete better. I heard Brighton and Paul Barber talk the other day about a really innovative project in their new stadium about the grass being ready for a female athlete, we're already doing that because we don't have to think about the men's athlete, right? So it's easier, I think, to be crystal clear.

11:31I think the second part is that we're in startup mode, which I love. So my background was just, I built my own startup in the sort of media advertising space and then went into elite sport. And my role now is a really combination of both. And what that means is that we don't have 140 years worth of history to worry about. We don't have 100 people there that have been 25 years in place and need a bit of evolution from a strategy point of view. But we just don't have many forces stopping us doing what we believe in. But also you don't have 140 years of history and a fan base, I guess. Which is one of the concepts.

12:07How do you even begin then to build a football team without that structure? Because that feels very at odds with anything we have in this country in terms of a football culture. Yeah. Yeah. I think to build a club, you know, without the history, you have to, I guess, have two or three things in place. You have to have a great owner who's really crystal clear and believes in investment before growth. So Michelle's, one of Michelle's core principles is I will invest early and it's investment, not loss. It's an investment in what we're doing in grass, in medicine. And then I want to see the revenues flow from that to prove my model.

12:38But then I think you have to have, you know, you have to have a plan in place. You have to be crystal clear where you're going. you know if you're playing chess or building a business you're not making one move making 10 12 in advance i think we're able to to build that plan in a way that almost nobody else can do because there's nothing to break apart and when you drop into a team in italy like i did and they've got hundreds of years of history and a plan it's very hard to evolve that and the third bit i think is in a startup where you end up you end up with an all-in environment and i give you the sort of negative view on that rather than the positive, which is it is totally okay to not believe in Michelle's vision.

13:16It's totally okay to not believe in our vision and our plan for the club, but you probably don't want to be in our environment, right? So the way we work inside the club is to go, this is where we're going. We've got a clear plan. We all believe in it. If you don't believe in that and you would rather be at a big corporate club and working with 700 people every day, nothing wrong with that. I'm not judging one's better or the other, but go and do that. And then what that breeds is this environment of everybody's all in. It's interesting what you're saying about, you know, everyone needing to be all in.

13:43And I guess internally, that's really important. But externally, I haven't heard everyone be all in on the project. Some have described your approach and your model as quite aggressive. Firstly, where do you stand on sort of being called aggressive in the women's game? And do you feel that's sour grapes from some because they can see what you're building? And perhaps they would quite like to have Michelle's billions too. Of course, of course. so we have no problem at all with people not buying into our vision, that's the competitive nature of sport, if you're an Arsenal fan you don't like Tottenham, it's okay we're not expecting everyone to like us I mean aggressive is a slightly strange word I've not heard before but let's sort of go down the route of people don't buy into our model, they think we're investing too quickly, they think we're whatever it might be I think we see it as I can't find anyone in the world who doesn't believe that we ought to be investing more in women's sport globally I have three daughters, one of their friends started a school in London in September, a very well-funded school, let's put it that way.

14:41She's a PE teacher and she arrived on day one and they told her that the girls get 40%, 50%, less sport than the boys. Like, how is that possible in this modern world, right? So I don't know anybody that wouldn't agree that we are here to invest in the women's game and offer more opportunities. So I don't see why Michelle, you know, making investments with her own money that she's made that she owns herself as an issue. And I don't think there are many people that will come on your show and challenge that. I think where they are challenging is we are being disruptive within the market. Are we, you know, pushing inflation in player wages?

15:16Is it unfair that, you know, we can go and finish third in the league this year when somebody else can't? I don't, again, I understand that, but we don't massively care, if I'm honest, because, you know, we want to be competitive. You're like the Millwall. No one likes us, we don't care. I think it comes back to this, we do care that people don't like us, I want to be crystal clear about that right because we're building a brand we want to bring an audience in yeah of course but it comes back to that competitive nature so again someone said to me uh at the man city game like is it fair that you bought eight or nine really good players this summer right and i'm looking at man city and going well you've got eight or nine really good players so what's the difference you bought them two years ago or three years ago because you were you know at a different stage of your journey so i think what you'll see with us is as we go through the next couple of years we won't be buying all those players because they're already here and we will develop our own young players but you can't do that if you haven't you know got a basis of players already so but but going back to the point of you know do we care whether people like us yes we do but we're crystal clear on what we're doing and we think we're growing the game we're growing the league we're growing uh our club and we're creating opportunities for you know women and girls to play sport get involved in sport and like we have no there's not one part of my body that thinks that's a bad thing speaking of really good players uh you've obviously got the three times now Ballon d 'Or winner, Alexia Pateas.

16:35We know how good she is on the pitch. You mentioned her earlier as, you know, she's been doing her homework and tracking what Michelle was doing in the last five years. But what has she brought to the club from a commercial sense? What does it mean having her in the team? Yeah, I think it's a really, really big impact and probably bigger than we expected. If I take you back to the sort of core of the strategy and I'll explain where she fits within it, right? So we talk a lot about completing the circle. If I can explain that circle to you, since it's a business podcast, you have to listen to me.

17:11You start at the top of the circle with Michelle's vision. Like Michelle's got a vision of what she believes is possible and that's about investing in, you know, up front to see growth. And then the first sort of pod on that is about investment in facilities, training ground, grass, medical facilities, better nutrition. We have the best food. we bought a chef from Southampton who is the best chef I've ever eaten food from. We have all those things in place. She believes that. And it was one of the trigger points that led me to want to work with her. She understood that was more important than just buying the best players.

17:40And then from there, you then do go to, if we bring the best players to this plan, you'll start to see growth on and off the pitch. And then as you go around to the other side of that circle, you're then looking at commercial deals. So for our business to be sustainable, to fit within the rules, we have to drive big commercial deals. and I would argue that Alexia being here led to Nike paying the fee they paid that allows us to be sustainable right and then you complete that circle by then saying and then we have to bring a fan base and we have to fill our stadium and we have to sell more shirts and then we have to win games and then the circles complete and our view all along the last year was that bringing Alexia into that would accelerate that circle to go faster which I think is probably part of Michelle's DNA there's no point you know being here in 10 years still trying to do it um so she's done that I I mean, anecdotally, we had 34 million hits on our Instagram page 48 hours after the Ballon d 'Or.

18:31It's an unbelievable number. Our growth is about 150 % year on year in almost every metric versus the market, which is about 10%. Easy when you're starting from a low base, but we're seeing real growth. But I think you know better than I do that the women's game is more about the athletes, more about what the athletes can bring than the teams. The female athletes have a different approach. if I walked into a room now with a lecturer and said, look, I need to do this with you to deliver this deal, she will just get a bag and go, where are we going? On the men's side, it's much more difficult. So I think we brought an unbelievable asset to our commercial business, but we also brought a fantastic human, I have to say that.

19:10She understands that her being her best every day is not enough. Everybody's got to come with us, from the chef we talked about to the commercial people. And she knows her responsibility within that mix, and Sheila loves on it every day. It's interesting because you're absolutely right. People will follow Alessia Russo. People will follow Mary Ups. It doesn't matter what team she goes to, they love her. Bomati, Puteas, whoever. And is that a key driver for you in some of the players you choose? Because obviously you are trying to build this fan base. Are you finding that they're coming with you?

19:45Yes, I think so. I talked about this before that in the men's side, did I ever have a conversation about the commerciality of a player? Probably not. I think Man United would. I think at Southampton's level, we didn't. We do now. It's not the primary reason we would bring a player through the door. It's not the reason Mary came or Mappy Leone came, but it's definitely part of the conversation. And that's not, again, because we're trying to make money. It's because we need the fan base to build and we believe that by doing that, the circle will be complete. So I think so. And I think you just see a different attitude.

20:16Like if you take Mary Ertz, for example, I sat down with her to talk about whether she should or should not come to the club. And we go into those meetings two ways open, not trying to convince her, trying to say, this is our project, what's your project, does it fit? And you just see someone who's got a business degree, who understands their future, who wants to be part of what we're doing to enhance her brand and her future, but also leave a legacy here. So yes, I think it's a huge part of it, accelerated by the fact that we don't have a huge club history. So we have to do innovative different things.

20:47You mentioned obviously the Nike sponsorship. Michelle described it as the biggest front of shirt sponsorship in women's football. Are reports of three million a year accurate? You said you didn't want to hide anything. So come on. Yeah, I think probably there are thereabouts. You know, again, I follow Michelle's language and what's important. But my understanding is the deal is the biggest in women's sport. And I believe that the one in Atlanta, I think it was about, you know, four million dollars a year. So we think it's above that. it's a massively significant thing for us because there's no you know financial modeling and justifiable reason for that deal it's an investment in the future and where we're going and the athletes we have and the training center we're building but nike are working with us in every part of our business there is an innovation fund to lead research into women's sport and how we do better on the pitch there's physical spaces within our training grammar we can do things together but also we're doing a lot of brand work together so it's a real partnership for the long term and but it was important to us I think to show the market that we could do that and going back to your original question about those people that may doubt our model my feeling was that going into the WSL shareholder meeting or going to other grounds there was some skepticism about our project and then when Nike comes along a few people went okay maybe you were right right so I think it's important to us to to show we're on that path on and off the pitch.

22:04On the interests of transparency because you said earlier you know some people were worried that your wages were inflating the model overall in the WSL. We did a whole podcast on WSL wages. So how much over these averages are we talking? Because the base for women in the WSL for players over 23 is 42 ,500. So how much over that are you? So I think at a young player level, we can sign contracts that are the same as the rest of the league and they want to be here and they want to see their future. And find me an athlete, men's or women's side who doesn't think they're good enough to play for the best team in the world.

22:42They all do. Freya thinks she can win the Ballon d 'Or one day. Alexis told her she can. So let's go and do it. So then I think the honest answer about wages is we know, I mean, you and I both know the wages. We can all see them in front of us. At the top end of the market, we are not overpaying, right? There are players in the market this summer that we'd love to have come that we can get anywhere near the wages. Really? Anywhere near. Like? I mean, let's be general but so the big moves in the market this year were georgia stanway uh bunny bunny sure was in the market like i'm not going to go into those numbers but the numbers were out there publicly it's not even close to what we can pay so to answer that question before we come into where i think there is an inflationary issue which part of you know how have we been able to bring mappy and alexia here at a lower wages and those players are earning i think it's because they believe in the project and they believe in the future and they've had a great career in a different environment So Alexia came here not for money.

23:31I can tell you that hand on heart. It's not about money. It's about her belief that she can provide a legacy for the future for other people, but she can also expand her reach and brand in a new city and a new world. So I don't think at that top level, I know at that top level we're not inflationary because we can't afford the players that others can afford. I think where the issue comes in and where we're criticized, and I understand more, is the sort of mid-ranking wages. So if you were to take a good young English player, Let's take Poppy Passon, for example, or a player that was another club like a Grace Frisk or something like that.

24:03Could we pay those players more than a Brighton or a Villa or a Liverpool? We could. And I think that creates an issue. Do you, though, look at some of the, what some people might call sour grapes, you know, these kind of mid-table club, and think, well, hang on a minute, you've got a men's club that generates hundreds of millions of pounds. You could if you wanted to. Absolutely. Is that where you're at? Yeah, and again, I want to, and now I'm suddenly turning into a politician, but we don't feel sour grapes. You know, you have to remember that, like, we've all been in football a long time, and like, we're all trying to compete with each other.

24:34And I'm aware that you're a Man United fan, so I'll give a good example, right, which is last season, we played Man United early in the season, and the Man United coach, I think, said before the game, well, we can't compete at the level that London City can. It's ridiculous. Of course they can. They can choose to do it. They might not want to, and they might, you know, have a view about the investment they need to make in the women's team, see it grow. So, but of course, like the rules are the rules. The teams that have big men's teams alongside have massively much more ability to spend than we do.

25:02So, you know, again, it's a media narrative. It's why it's important we come out and talk so people understand that we're not spending the same as, you know, the really big clubs at this point. The WSL does now have financial sustainability rules, which limits player wages to 80 % of relevant revenue. I think, yeah. To be clear, plus some owner investment. Plus, yes. So this is the point, I suppose. You had a revenue of 900 ,000, is that right, in your most recent published accounts and a£10.6 million loss on revenue. Okay. Explain this for me because, you know, I guess what the question is, is how you reconcile the level of ambition you have and the investment versus those restrictions.

25:45So first of all, I think, like, think about inside the club where we are, right? So that balance between our ambition and financial sustainability, we don't see that as an issue because our ambition is to be financially sustainable, right? So we built a business plan. We called it Project Healy after the greatest female track athlete, in my opinion, in the world, about going fast. And the whole ambition of that is to be financially sustainable within five years. So then we are making investments up front to accelerate our growth, to build a training ground, to bring great players here, to bring great staff members here, to be able to compete at the very top, to qualify for Europe, to get Nike in the door, to get great sponsors and be sustainable.

26:23So that I think is our business model, right? So we see it as an investment, not a loss, right? So we're not losing money, we're investing. I guess the second point to go into, which I always say when the other clubs ask me is, if you are a business person or an entrepreneur like I was, you don't make money in the first year, you invest. You invest time. When I built my startup, we invested every penny that I had in the world. I didn't have a lot because I was very young. I invested 24 hours a day. I was saying to someone the other day that I used to go to work, I would get home at 9 o 'clock at night, and I sort of wait for my wife to go to sleep and I go back to work.

26:57Like, that's what you do. You invest time, you invest resources. You know, we're all investing a lot to build a business and then it will be profitable in the future. How reliant then, I guess, at this stage, and this is probably an obvious answer, but how reliant are you on her money at this point? Absolutely reliant. But then so is every Premier League team, championship team and women's football team at the moment. But the difference for us is we believe there is a goal and a moment out there where we won't be reliant, right? And again, I want to be crystal clear, this is not about Michelle trying to make money.

27:27She's never going to come to us and go, right now you're making money, can I have my money back? It's about proving the business model so other people come along on the journey. But I would argue that I don't see a path for, you know, Premier League teams and Championship teams to get to sustainability now in the world they're in. It's really, really difficult. They're going to be reliant on owner investment. And the only two ways out of that is to go up the league into the Champions League or to generate massive player sales. We do see a path to sustainability because we can control costs and we can manage our business like a startup.

27:56But we see, you know, our sponsorship deal with Nike is bigger than three Premier League shirt deals, I think. So we can do that, but we're not paying the players at the same level we see it past that but we are reliant um on michelle's investment and michelle's commitment to the club but that's normal i think do you agree with these rules that the wsl has brought in um and do you think it protects clubs or do you think it slightly restricts potential yeah i think a bit of both i think it's a truth and that obviously comes from the men's game and all the things you've spoken about before and no so so again crystal clear we will agree with and comply to every rule that is set but we're part of the negotiation and discussion to make sure the rules are right so where we would have a concern is if the rules are reducing investment so i'm sure we'll probably get onto mco structures but you know our concern there would be form a shell to invest properly and really grow the women's game at unbelievable level we would like to be doing this in a number of clubs men's mco model is more about you know pyramid and developing players in spain and bringing them into england that's not what the women's game is about it's acceleration.

29:01It's about putting great executives in, great grass in, great medicine in, all the things you need to do to make sure that the game is growing. And we believe in our heart, Michelle believes that should be a moment in time where she can do that in seven countries in Europe if it's the right thing to do. Let's just go back to MCO is what you mentioned earlier. There's a multi-club ownership scenario. And if you were to get into the Champions League, which right now looks like a good thing, like could happen, you will have a bit of a headache in the sense that Michelle owns the eight-time women's European champions Olympic Lyonnais in France.

29:37Now, UEFA's multi-club ownership rules say you cannot play in the same competition if you own those clubs, but you think this is fixable. You can get around it. Go on, tell us why. So two things again to that. So one is that we strongly believe, Michelle strongly believes, that those rules should be different in the women's game than the men's game. I think what you've got to do is be careful not to build a women's game in the image of the men's game, right? Across fan experience, across player development. And this would be another example, which is she believes that she wants to, and other people want to make major investments, whether you be Crux Football or Mercury 13, across a number of clubs.

30:11And if we can accelerate that growth and we can see more money flowing into those teams, then I think that would accelerate the game and we'll all be in a better place. So a lot of people would argue you can do that without both playing in Europe, and you can, and that will happen. so I think we would see that argument we push it hard but we fully understand the rules and why the rules are in place but there are very clear pathways to resolving that issue which is happening in the men's game Nottingham Forest, Olympiacos these kind of things so there are sort of structural things we can do to allow us to compete in Europe with Lyon in there and we will do those things if we have to so it's not an emotive or controversial topic there are just absolute cast iron rules what you have to do and we will have to do it A lot of people think you can just pick up what you've got in the men's game.

30:57And if you put it in the women's game, it would be that much better. Why is it important that the women's game doesn't make the mistake of trying to just identicate, copy what the men have done? I think it's completely different in every possible way. And that's why I'm not emotive or angry about people that are not interested. I am. And you should be. And a lot of people should be. But I'm not because my job is to grow the future, not complain about the past. And I understand that. And it's not that there isn't that inequality and that disastrous stuff going on. there is but we see a path to it being better now we really do so i did an interview on my first week on talk sport where i said to a bunch of very very good you know male hosts like what what is the issue because we just come out from watching keely win the gold medal in the olympics not one person in my life and it's not a shock to anyone that i'm a middle-aged man right not one person in my life went oh she can't run as fast as the men not one person absolutely everybody loves her everybody loves what she did she's such an iconic athlete yeah so why are you saying you won't come to my game because it's not as good as the men's guy it doesn't make any sense to me and that's not me campaigning it just doesn't make logical sense so therefore that leads your kind of intelligent brain to go you need to experience it and then you'll stop saying that so um i think i think that matters and i think the second thing that i feel i don't want to use the word we because probably it's just me but you know i've got amazing people in my life that are 60 plus they're probably never going to get it and that's okay it's okay because the next generation are coming and again I'm now not prepared enough to remember the data but we're the only sport I think that has an average audience under 35 like the actual average age number of a person watching the Premier League on TV or rugby on TV it's like I think it's even over 55 58 now like that audience is getting older our audience is the future they'll have more disposable income they'll have more desire for experience but to answer your question we cannot replicate it we cannot you know I was a season ticket holder for a long time for a club in london and we used to time ourselves to get to the stadium one minute before kickoff and then rush out afterwards and we complain and we hated it and it's just a different culture you know we're trying to build that connection between the players and the fans we're bringing them in the stadium earlier they're having a broader experience and i don't buy into the fact that it's just for families i don't see that inside my club i mean it's great that it is for families we have kids there but i don't see that i think we're beginning to see a bunch of very young people choose this over another entertainment experience at the weekend.

33:19But would you want that level of tribalism in the women's game? Because you're sort of saying it's not just families, but for me the fact that I can take my daughters to women's football and not feel like they're going to hear certain things or experience certain things is one of the beautiful things about it. Yeah, absolutely. And I wouldn't want that tribalism. and I was saying earlier on that I lost my father this year and one of my first memories was him taking me to a game and I remember being cold and someone tipped a pint of beer down the back of my neck and I know that's old-fashioned stuff but it's a different experience at the women's game.

33:54So we don't want the tribalism, we want people to enjoy the sport for what it is but do you want people to be talking about us every day on the radio? Yes. Still I'm shocked and surprised by the lack of interest in what we're doing from the male media who obviously I know them really well and I offer up opportunities and how often do they take it? Not very often. They misunderstand the power. Like I was at an event yesterday with a whole bunch of kids and someone said, do you know, you know, did you go to that? Someone told me you went to the Ballon d 'Or. Yeah, did you meet Harry Kane? Why is that relevant to you?

34:26Like I'm here talking about a female athlete. So I think we need people to understand the power of it. We need people to be a little bit more engaged in the clubs, but also, you know, the athlete thing is leading that at a high level, I think. Do you find that you need to be, you know, signing the best player in the world to get headlines rather than just what the Premier League experience is week in, week out, where they will just churn headlines about clubs? It doesn't seem to matter because it's men's football and that really is king. Yeah, but I think that's the natural bias that runs through the system.

34:55So when I talk to a journalist that I would know well on the men's side, they are interested in what we're doing and they do want to talk about it. But then their editor will go, well, I'm not going to get as many clicks unless I talk about Harry Kane's little toe. So there's just that natural bias that runs through the system, which I don't see as, you know, necessarily deeply offensive or it's just it's just in the system and we have to break it apart. It's almost as if you're saying diversity is important. It's almost important. But like we joke about it, don't we? But like, I mean, again, I'm probably telling way too open stories, but I have I live with a almost entirely female household.

35:29Sorry for that. I love every second of it. Right. So I've grown up in that environment. I ran a business in the advertising media space where I really believe equality, certainly in quality and hiring, maybe some of the behaviors could have been better in the 80s. I'm not going to pretend they weren't. But equality and hiring, I think over the time we were like 58 % women. People say, why did that happen? It happened because women are better at the job. They're more creative, more energetic, and they deliver, whereas men at 25 were not doing such a good job. But my wife would say to you that her family came from the banking industry, which was different, and the women didn't get an opportunity there.

36:03So for me, it's institutional. I don't see a huge negativity towards what I'm doing, apart from the people that are not engaged in because of the history and the institutional issues in their market. So you've got to change the market, not the people. That's my view. How important is it that A, the training ground, obviously we know you're building one, that happens, but B, that you get your own home? Yeah, the training ground is super important because, again, remember Michelle believes and we believe that taking care of female athletes, taking care of medicine, making sure that everything that's going on in the grass now while you are here is at the elite level so we don't lose a top player for the game on Sunday.

36:43So those things are super important. But that's, if I'm honest, the easy part. Like it's not easy. Michelle bought a piece of land and has the ability to say I'm going to build something and suddenly it's being built. Whereas, you know, again, in my past, I've tried to do things like that, particularly in Italy when it just never happened. Right. So I think that's easy because it's a sort of strategic path of I believe I will do, I'll invest and it will happen. So we'll be ready, you know, next summer with a Premier League level elite training center. Stadium is more complicated, but your question is around how important it's incredibly important, I think, to own a space, own a community.

37:16Never, ever forget that we are kind of custodians of a football club and the community and you have to build that relationship. So you have to be sure where you're playing and not moving around every year. And that's important. but to control the environment from a fan experience point of view is important in any football club but in the women's side it's like 20 times more important and then from a commercial point of view if you don't own the stadium if you don't control that stadium environment your commercial growth is massively limited I must shout out to Bromley where we play to say that the moves they've made in the 18 months since I've been here have been really really good and really helpful I think it was a tricky situation when I got there but the stadium's great now it's a great experience they've supported us massively we've done the same to them but truthfully to own a stadium and be able to do everything you want to do is the key in the future.

38:03I've seen reports of potentially stadium being in Crystal Palace. That's the one that isn't true funnily enough. So the Crystal Palace one isn't true it keeps coming up in the media it's not one we've looked at it has a running track on I think the one you're talking about and that wouldn't work I think for modern football. So I think we don't have a solution to share I think there are kind of three ways through it one is that we build something ourselves difficult to do takes a long time if i went and sat down with alexa now and said look we're thinking building a stadium do you want to you know she's like well i'll you know that's five years i haven't got time for that it's possible um i think michelle would love to do that i think another is you end up in a sort of a rental situation with a club difficult because you're always upsetting some fan or something but but it's working well for us at the moment and then the third route is you end up in some kind of equity transaction where you do own a stadium, which is like the Crystal Palace thing, where there's a stadium that's not working or, you know, West Ham decide to build another stadium and we go into that stadium.

39:02Obviously, that is not a real one. You know, those are probably the future where we see it in the end is we end up sort of redeveloping something that's fallen on hard times or a plot of land that's no longer being used or something like that. I suppose the difficulty then is if you have built a local fan base and you end up having to pull them, I'm not saying West Ham, but you brought it up. Yeah. if you ended up having to pull them in a completely sort of odd direction. Yeah, can't do that. You can't, really. No, I think we see our catchment area because we're London City as a team. So we see our catchment area from really City Airport down to where we are now.

39:33It's a pretty big catchment area. It's a very big catchment area. We have to narrow that down a bit. Yeah. We had some conversations with commercial partners, with players, where London is a very, very key part of why they want to be with us. So the London identity, I think, is really important. I mean, you and I both know that Arsenal and Tottenham and Fulham, and they're all part of London, but actually London's a significant part of our identity. So I think it will be in that area. It has to be in that area, I think. We can't just suddenly move to West London, I don't think. Where do you think the women's game is now?

40:02Because we talk about it, it seems to be so much more present in our lives as sporting fans or football fans. And yet we're seeing attendances go down. Arsenal skew that because of the Emirates, but across the board we're seeing attendances go down. The BBC cancelled the women's football show. What do you think these trends say about the women's game right now? And what do you make of that in the context of the ambitions the club has? It's a difficult one that I think to answer clearly. I think the women's game is growing, right? We're seeing growth across the board from a very low base. Michelle uses this amazing story about we're not, you know, behind in our development we're just early in our development so the men's game is 142 years professional we're eight or nine and we're not doing so bad right so so i think we feel confident in the growth i think the tendencies are are linked to a very very linked to national performance right so again one of the discussions i had the other day was in the men's game the clubs are really all-powerful and then they go and play for england occasionally in the women's game it's the other way around so the national team performance is massive it's national like we've all sat and watch those tournaments and the whole country's interested the clubs have got to catch up and i think they will catch up i think part of the reason nike are on the journey with us is the elite athletes we've got but also because they see a future where the clubs will be you know a bit more powerful like the men's game so so i think that's right so i think i think if you look at those attendances there are two major reasons why um they're not booming like ours are ours are booming because you know we're growing from a low base one is the sort of international tournament success and that had a massive boost and now we sort of settled down a bit we're really hopeful or the World Cup this year will do that again, particularly if England can go out and win.

41:48And the second bit then is like time slotting. And I think time slotting is a big deal. The league is aware of that. Sky is aware of that. I think what Sky was trying to do was create a kind of appointment to view. So appointment to view is very important in sport where I know my team, my sport, will play on a Tuesday night and I can watch it. So I think they were trying to find that 12 o 'clock slot on a Sunday where you could watch women's football in a clear space. I think it's worked really well on TV but doesn't work well for attendances. So you've got that balance between, do we want more people to watch on TV and a global audience?

42:18And do we want everyone in the world watching like they are in the Premier League? Or do we want to fill stadiums out? So it's that balance. But I think time slot, being able to create an environment where we can put on the best fan experience is probably the thing that will change that around quicker. If you were a London City fan and not so involved in the way that you are, what's the one thing that you might change, do you think, from a fan experience? Of our club or the league? Of your club, but also the league. just over broadly as well. Yeah, interesting. I think from a league perspective, I would like to see the stadiums a bit fuller.

42:51I think that would make a big difference. I think the fan experience environment from what I can see versus my time in the men's game is like so much better. Like, do I enjoy going to games? Do I go and see other games? I'm not, but I do. And the men's side, it wasn't that pleasant an experience, if I'm honest. It was getting quite difficult by the end. So I think enjoying the fan experience, going to a stadium that's a bit fuller, being able to enjoy other things when you're there is probably the thing they're getting right, the thing I would like the most I think in our club you want that history, you want to feel connected to something and we're not confused that you can accelerate that in a year, it's going to take a few years I think I may have already said honestly that this time last year football was good grass was fantastic, we were winning games but I didn't see that connection from the fans to the players now we have it against Man City you could feel the energy in the stadium you can feel them getting behind people there's there's love between the players two of the players and the coach came to see me after the game went wow like I really felt the energy of the fans there and I think that helps build you know you want to come back you want to be part of it who is the London City Lioness fan then I think we see kind of three pockets now and in the future right so we have the local fan the one that's been there from the start we have a lot of those people and they're really committed.

44:06So local area, long-term committed. Then I think we have people that like the women's game who are based in London. It's a pretty large group of people. And yes, Alex Scott's program this week was, I think one of our fans was on there getting abused from moving from Arsenal to London City. And why did he move? Well, I like Alex, I wanted him to move. So we are seeing some movement from people that love the women's game, who want to see the best players in the world, who can get a ticket, who want to come into a great fan experience. And then I think the third pocket is then people that are not interested in the women's game, but interested in sport and particularly female sport.

44:42And we're seeing, you know, a new audience come in who love sport, love live experience, love live events. They're in London, again, a huge city with young people of all nationalities, of all incomes who want to see elite women's sport. So finally then, if you could win the league in three years' time or be a really profitable, sustainable business but be sort of top five, top four maybe every year, what would you have to go for? The hand tied behind your back. Yeah, I mean, I don't think we could be sustainable finishing fourth or fifth, I think is the truth, right? So those two things come together.

45:17So you do have to be winning, really? I think we do, yeah. So winning is not the primary objective but you need to win to do what we are doing, right? So we need to attract the best players in the league. We need to attract the best sponsors. We need to be playing in Europe to be sustainable in the future. So we have to win. So it's not that way around. Winning isn't the primary objective, but losing isn't on the cards. No, I think being truly blunt, like if we are in seventh position now, do we get those commercial deals done that we're doing? No. So I think we have to win. We will win. And again, you know, at some point, Alexia or someone will listen to this podcast or will scream at me about, not talking about trying to win the league this year, but I'm trying to give you as a business podcast the insight.

45:57The business plan says compete in Europe every year, win a trophy every year. So what that tells you is we need to be in Europe, we need to finish in the top three and we're going to take the cup seriously and we want to win them because we haven't won a major tournament before. So, you know, these conversations about big teams winning the League Cup and not caring, like that's not us. Like we want to win, we want to entertain. But we've got a very clear way of how we want to do that. Martin, thank you so much. I've really enjoyed chatting to you today. And thank you to you for listening or for watching along.

46:27This podcast is all about you. We're trying to bridge the gap from the top of football to you, the fans and the top of sport. So follow, like, subscribe, comment and tell us what you like. Tell us what you don't like. And please come back next week. Thanks.