Will Everton’s Sale Cost Fans Another Transfer Window?

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0:34The Freakin' Group took over Everton in a deal worth reportedly around£400 million. Less than two years later, and they're looking to sell. And now there's talk of an£800 million price tag, but with still substantial debts, who's going to buy the club? Well, we're going to ask two people who know more about Everton than we could ever know, and that's really, really important. and he's a proper toffee, but he's also a football finance expert, which works perfectly for high-performance business in proud partnership with IFS. Please welcome to the show, Paul Quinn. How you doing, Paul? Thanks. Thanks for having me on.

1:10Looking forward to this. Well, listen, any help you need, you're going to get from a true Blue, a lifelong Everton fan, a journalist, the Blue Room presenter, the brilliant Matt Jones is here. Hi, Matt. Hi, Colin. Hi, Natalie. How you doing? Listen, Matt, take us inside the conversations that you're having with Everton fans, proper season ticket holders, those who have it in their blood. How are Everton fans feeling about this? I think there's obviously a sense of frustration that the freeing group have come in and essentially tried to flip Everton. And there's a sense that the journey we all kind of want to go on and getting Everton back to being in Europe, being in the Champions League, competing for trophies, that kind of feels like it's on pause.

1:56while this situation goes on. But I think there is a bit of perspective as well in the sense that when the freaking group came in, like for me personally, and sort of my limited financial knowledge around these things, it felt like it was an existential thing for Everton with the debt they accrued in different situations with different partners and with the points of deductions that were kind of coming thick and fast. So I think the fact that they came in, bought a distressed asset, picked the club up, cleared the debt, made the bad debt into good debt and have put the club on a more stable financial footing.

2:30I think there is appreciation for that, but I think there's also a sense of frustration that they never really fully bought into the club. You know, Dan Freakin, the top man of the Freakin group, has never been to Hill Dickinson Stadium, despite being in the country a couple of weeks ago to play golf. So it's felt like they've always kind of kept the distance and whilst Everton have maybe been more of a cold business project, if you look at what they've done at Roma, that feels more like a passion project and there's a bit more romance and a bit more investment in terms of their emotional investments in Roma.

2:59So I think there's appreciation of what we've done, a bit of a sense of frustration that these aren't going to be the people that are going to kind of push us on into that next level. They're not going to take us from B to C, haven't taken us from A to B. And Paul, you wrote recently that you think this£800m price tag is too high. Where do you think it sort of stands, the value of the club? I think there's a number of false narratives being bounded around at the moment. The club debt position is significantly worse than most people think. And when the Freakins came in, yes, they cleared up the mess that Mishiri had left behind in terms of getting secure debt on the stadium.

3:36But they actually borrowed quite a lot of money in order to put the investment back into the club. So they spent£230 million when they acquired the club and they've put in another£200 million since. It's also not just the Freakins. It's a company called Roundhouse Capital, and they have two external shareholders as well. But the key point from a fan's perspective, the club is operating at a loss. It loses about a million pound a week, even with the new stadium. The Freakins haven't recapitalised the club to the extent that we thought they would. So if you look at the playing squad, the playing squad is down to its bare bones.

4:13Had the Freakins got their way, and this is not a knocking session, about the Freakins. This is just spelling out the reality. Had the Freakins got their way in August, and I'll explain why their position changed in August in a minute, we would have had an even smaller squad than we've got now. And the reason for that is that the Freakins hadn't made the investment that they said they would. They borrowed£350 million on the stadium, which is fine, that makes sense, that was through JP Morgan. But they also borrowed another nearly£150 million, Currently, I think it's around about$130 million on a five-year loan from JP Morgan.

4:50That's almost fully utilised. So when a player is transferred, I think most fans understand now that the money is not all paid up front. We've borrowed against future payments. So actually, my estimate is that our current debt position is closer to£600 million than it is£400 million. So that's the stadium debt. It's the debt that the Freakins took on board to acquire the club, and it's the factoring of player receivables. And then when you look at the value of the club, people are saying that the enterprise value, which is the equity plus the debt, is around about£800 million. That figure looks quite high to me, but I'm not going to argue every single point.

5:35Let's just say it is£800 million. That probably makes the equity something around£200 to£250 million. The Freakins are going to get out of this, possibly with the money that they invested, but not much more else. This is not a flip. This is a recognition that they made a bad investment decision in the first place. So we've had two very different thoughts about why they are selling. Paul, why do you think they are selling? Because we should also add in, as has been mentioned already by Matt, this ownership of Roma, who have just had a new stadium approved, and the idea that that is the priority for the freaking group.

6:13Why do you think they are selling? They made it very clear very early on that they had a solution to the multi-club ownership problem that exists in UEFA, and that is two clubs owned by the same ownership competing in the same competition. They were adamant, and people at the club told me that we, being Everton, had a solution that was acceptable to UEFA. As it turns out, that solution wasn't acceptable to UEFA. And this is where the turnaround came. If you recall, at the beginning of August, both Angus Kinnear, Everton's CEO, and David Moyes, who will be far more widely known, spoke very positively about Everton's prospects for the rest of the window, that they had a certain amount of money to spend.

7:01Some people said it was up to£100 million. That was predicated on the Freakin's belief that both clubs, if they qualified for the same competition, would be able to compete in Europe. Between then and the middle of August, the Freakins discovered that UEFA actually said, no, the solution that you've put to us is not the right solution and that the only solution that you could have would be the blind trust, which, again, is something that fans will be aware of in terms of Crystal Palace, for example, who fell foul of that rule. And that effectively meant that the Freakins would have to decide which of the two clubs, AS Roma or Everton, they were put into a blind trust, meaning that they could not make management decisions while both clubs were in the same competition.

7:47And clearly it would be AS Roma that would take priority. They're going to be regularly in the Champions League, we unfortunately are some way off from that. So once the Freakins realised that that solution wasn't going to work, it made no sense to keep hold of Everton and effectively they turn the taps off then and then. Still waiting in line? Again? That's time you'll never get back. Save time and money with Stamps.com. Over 4 million businesses have skipped the line with Stamps.com. Join them to save up to 90 % off carrier rates from your computer or phone right now. Print postage for certified mail, registered mail, and packages in seconds.

8:31Then schedule a pickup right from your home or office. For a limited time, go to stamps.com and use code podcast for a free welcome gift. Taxes and fees apply.

8:45Natalie's the brains of this podcast. I'm glad you've acknowledged that. It's going to tie in what Paul said when you talked me through all of the new financial fair play rules. So Natalie, what has went wrong with the financial fair play setup of the Premier League that we all absolutely are not going to argue with Paul that Roma is the better option. No one argued. Matt didn't argue. I didn't argue. Because he's right. Just any club outside of that protected, quote, unquote, top teams. You explained to me there isn't a pass. It doesn't matter how much money your owner comes in. That's the real peril here.

9:23And the tricky situation, the sticky situation that Everton got themselves in in that transfer window specifically is the Harrison Armstrong situation where they were looking to potentially sell, and Matt, bring you in here, you know, one of their absolute prized assets. And I think I'm right in saying the fans chanted they would riot if he was sold. And it forced a bit of a 180 from the owners. So talk us through that and why that was so significant and how that transfer window really has potentially left the owners saying, right, put their hands up, we're not doing this. The transfer window did spiral out of control, as Paul alluded to, really.

10:02And I think what kind of made it even more difficult to stomach was the week before the season started. The CEO, Angus Kinnear, did a few interviews with selected media. It essentially paints a very positive picture from the club's financial position to sort of the running joke, which has been the search for a right back for probably over 10 years now, which the club haven't really done. It was all very upbeat, all very positive. So on that Saturday morning before Everton played Bournemouth, the main thing in Evertonian's minds, aside from going and getting something at Bournemouth, was are we going to get this right back through the door before the window closes on Tuesday?

10:38And then that Harrison Armstrong story dropped, I think, about 11am that morning. Not much surprises really in football, really, in regards to transfers and stories breaking, but that did feel like a bombshell one, really. And I don't think it's overstating that because I think from a PR point of view, purely PR points of view if you'd asked me that morning what's the worst thing ever to potentially do in terms of a sale to make the fans unhappy after this lad had played brilliantly the week before against Crystal Palace it was that I think if that story hadn't had broken that morning and had maybe broken a bit later in the day when the supporters didn't have the chance to vocally you know make their feelings clear about it there wasn't another game before the transfer window shut so would Armstrong have been sold?

11:24He would have got away with it if it wasn't for the pesky kids. I think what you got after that was obviously a U-turn from the club when they saw the reaction. The very next day, the club briefing that, you know, he's not going to go to Forest, he wants to stay. You got a situation where straight away it was reported that Njai was going to Tottenham and Everton were going to potentially sign Richarlison for what, like a hugely inflated fee. You got the situation with Foller and Balligan, who looked like he was going to come in, walked away at the last second when Everton looked for a striker.

11:54Everton's selling Njai. They sell Beto, they sell Irabunum, they don't get Balogun. They don't get the main right-back targets. They get Maitland-Niles on a£4 million deal. So it did all just spiral to the control massively. And between that Angus Kinnear interview and the Harrison Armstrong story coming out, it definitely felt like something changed then. I think as much as a lot of supporters have been quite critical of Angus Kinnear, I don't think he'd go and do those interviews and be so upbeat and be so brazen about the club's prospects if he knew what was coming down the pipeline with Harrison Armstrong and Jai et al.

12:30And then I don't mind saying it, real schoolboy errors they made in their transfer window by selling players in positions before they'd secured the replacement. But Paul, it sounds to me, when you pull all that together, to some extent that the Friedkin group entered this relationship with one food out the door. It feels like that relationship where one person isn't quite committed to monogamy. We're not talking about people here who don't know how to run businesses successfully. I just think they made a foolish decision and I think they realized. I think it's a massive due diligence and from a wider perspective.

13:13I think we see this quite often with American investors coming in. Yes, it's the most successful league in the world in terms of revenue. but the fact is that almost every club spends far more money than it earns. A mid-table club like Everton probably has to, their owners have to find £40-50 million a year just to stand still and that's without making the investments in the squad that enables a mid-table team, which is frankly what Everton are, compete for European football. Paul, on the face of it, you've got a Premier League club with this shiny new asset on the banks of the Mersey. So from the outside looking in, you'd think, actually, for perhaps an American private equity firm.

14:01So in your opinion, who would buy this club? Who do you think is the most likely? And is it perhaps not as shiny an asset as we think it is from the outside looking in? I've been in Evertonian all my life, but if I step back and just look at it objectively, what have we got? We've got a club that, despite the difficulties of recent years, is not likely to be relegated. Premier League status is pretty much as secure as it can be outside of the top six, seven, eight clubs. New stadium, as you say, which has been funded but not paid for. So that's debt, and that's debt that has to continue to be serviced.

14:42In an area of Liverpool, it's still incredibly underdeveloped. our stadium and the area around the stadium with what's happened at Manchester City and Manchester City's owners investment in that area. Very different kettle of fish. Additional revenue from activities outside of football, extremely limited. I know that the Freakins were advised that the number of events that they could hold outside of the football season were way in excess of the total number of events that are held in the Northwest. So again, it's a demonstration of them not understanding the product or the company that they were buying.

15:21Who is the next buyer of Everton? Well, people keep telling me that there's lots of Americans out there looking to buy football clubs. There's quite a number of Premier League football clubs that have been quietly up for sale for some months. And there's no buyers. You know, the macroeconomic environment is getting poorer. The sort of global geopolitical threats are getting greater. that interest rates are rising in the US, rising here in the UK. But the harsh reality is, why would you buy Everton Football Club unless you were buying it at a discount? And I don't believe for a second in the freekins are going to want to do that.

15:59Why would anybody buy a business asset that doesn't have a clear, viable, sustainable financial path to move out of the middle of the pack and move to the absolute forefront of that particular chosen industry. Matt, that's the problem we have here. Paul has said many true things, but the one line I just want to point out there is you have to spend dozens of millions of pounds just to stand still. That doesn't sound to me that I would be looking at buying an Everton or a Newcastle. with winning trophies in mind. You look at the groundwork that's gone into teams that are doing well at the moment, like Brentford, Bournemouth, Brighton, the three that often get sort of brought up in this.

16:53And that's year upon year upon year of scouting and building the right teams and relationships around the world. And obviously in Brighton's case, you've got Tony Bloom and the data company. And I think forever since we even get to that level, like how long is that going to take if they even want to be that sort of football club. And I think even that in itself, if you want to follow that model to do sort of what Bournemouth did last night where you're playing in Europe and you're beating AC Milan 3-0, how would you get there? Like, could a club like Everton implement that kind of model that Bournemouth and Brighton and Brentford do?

17:26I'm not sure because of the historical significance of Everton and the way in which supporters view Everton still, who watched the team in the 80s and the 60s potentially as well and thought, we're a club that can't sell our best players. We've got to cling on to our best players. So I think even implementing a model like that is difficult if you've got full buy-in from everybody at the football club and the fan base, but I don't think you would. So it's how do you get to that point? But I think it's about bringing in the right people to work on the football side of things with a plan to get Everton trading properly, buying properly, moving up the league table.

18:04But I think they're behind the eight ball already and that they're a long way behind those clubs and the models they've instilled. Two things on that. First of all, beating AC Milan 3-0 is not a big deal. Coming back from 3-0 down against AC Milan is a big deal. That's my only... I'm turning my cards in this entire podcast just for a bit of levity. But I just want a bit of clarification on that because I think Paul would come back and say, well, you're right about how successful those three Bs are being, but those three Bs are not breaking the Champions League stranglehold. And within those clubs, even within those three clubs that were just mentioned, Paul, there's the seeking of more investment.

18:44There's the seeking of selling capital. It comes back to whatever slice of the Premier League pie you look at out of the chosen few who've managed to consolidate under those rules, that gap between them and the rest. I don't know where that financial bridge is and that incentive is. I think it's a very valid question, Colin, that the incentive for people to buy Premier League football clubs in the past is not the belief that they're going to make them profitable. It's the belief that the capital value of the club is going to always increase. And that was predicated on the idea that the revenues that the football club would generate would always increase.

19:24So I think there's a strong argument for saying, actually, we're probably plateauing at this moment in time. And so if there's no revenue growth, but your costs are still going up year in, year out. That actually means that your losses are going to increase year in, year out. So how do you square that with the idea that you buy a club for a certain price today and in five years' time that club's going to be worth 20%, 30%, 40%, 50 % more than it is today? And then you've got to lay on top of that the new squad cost control ratios, which actually stop an investor that's got unlimited funds from actually investing in the squad in order to make that leap that, as you quite rightly identify, other clubs have not yet been able to do.

20:10So I think if you're in the Championship, you could take a view. We can get from the Championship to the Premier League and therefore see an uplift in value. If you're a mid-table team trying to break into Europe and you're restricted either because your owners won't put any more money in, which is now the case with Everton, or you're restricted by squad cost control ratios, then it's really difficult because not everybody can find a new methodology in terms of producing new players, a different style of football, etc., etc. That only comes along once or twice in a generation. Matt, just coming back to you, because you said a couple of answers ago that you felt it had to be the right owners.

20:54They had to be the right people to take Everton on. That's something they said in their statement, the Free King Group. They said, do you believe them when they say that they will find the best new owners? I've never wanted to answer a question on behalf of a guest more than this, Matt. I literally have a big capital letters here on very few notes that I bring in. Don't let this episode slide while I'm talking about this. It's been built off a lot now, but no, not really. Because if you look at all the things they said in the statement when they first came to the football club and you went down the list and...

21:28And whether they've done them all, you know, some of them maybe, a lot of them not. Some you'd sort of say, well, a bit. So I think the thing for me about it is that if it gets to January and Everton are 12th in the Premier League and then about five points above the relegation zone and there's no imminent sale on the horizon and Moyes' contract situation's not sorted, what happens then? do they have to feel like they've got to put money into the club to kind of make sure they stay out of relegation trouble and protect their own assets do they feel like they've got to make a decision on the manager's future I think while something like this is going on it hits pause on everything on the football side of things as well and Everton have got loads to do on the football side of things like I said David Moyes is out of contract next summer and it's almost like when you hear press conferences when you hear him talking about it it's kind of like oh yeah we'll sort that out we'll sort that out at some point but it's like it's really Christmas there's people around here getting the Christmas decorations up and Moises' contract's still not sorted you know these things need answers and I think whilst while the status sort of continues with the ownership group none of that's going to happen I think that's when it becomes awkward doesn't it I'm hoping everything continue doing alright like they've been so far they stay out of relegation trouble and if the Freakins want to bring the odd player in January then fine but it's if they slide down a little bit and they feel like you know we want to make sure if we're selling this thing it's a Premier League football club and they feel like they might have to invest or do they just roll the dice and think I'll be sad we'll get through to the end of the season without just putting any more money in How long this takes and what happens next is we absolutely can't finish this conversation about talking about that but off the back of what Matt just said I have never heard an owner of a football club when they put the club up for sale or when they're exploring selling the majority of the club level with their fans.

23:25I have never heard it ever. This is the equivalent. And we've all been there when we've been pulled in their room by a boss and they look at you and they say, we just see your best place somewhere else. We see that you'll be better off exploring new opportunities because they don't have the balls to just say to your face, we're sacking you. We don't want you here. They don't want to be in Everton. And this idea that there's going to be an investment bank somewhere in, you know, the valleys of LA or the high rises of New York, they're going to sit opposite somebody who's offering Dan Friedkin 800 million and that investment bank are going to say, but hold on a second.

24:13How are you going to manage the Finch Farm? And what's your view on our current situation with a search for a right back? Well, that's nonsense. and I get why they say it. It's the world that we live in and the BS that we hear all the time. But Paul, let's not accept it. Let's not sit here and accept that that is at the forefront of most, if not all, owners' minds. I think that's a nonsense. Absolutely. It is a nonsense. I think there's another factor to throw in as well in terms of timing and that's the fact that we've now got an independent football regulator. And whoever is the new owner or prospective new owner has to go through a form of due diligence with the independent football regulator.

25:02And my understanding is that takes at least 90 days. So even if we found a new owner and the price was agreed between now and Christmas, it's almost inconceivable that a new owner would not arrive at Everton before end of March, for example. and then you've got all the factors that you just mentioned in terms of how prepared is this new owner, how much detail do they know about the club. So I think we're agreed then, which is something that doesn't happen between us very often, that, you know, January transfer window is going to come and go without a new owner in place, okay? So, Paul, I guess the finances of that are essentially, Everton have a threadbare squad at the moment.

25:46We know that because of the last transfer window. they're not going to put money. No. They're just not, are they? You have separated from your partner and you're living with each other until the divorce goes through. It's true though. I'm not even saying that as a joke. It's the worst standing still situation. And Paul, you've already said you need to spend to stand still. So if you're not spending and this is, as it could very well be, a protracted situation that puts everyone in limbo, that's the bit that really worries me not as an Everton fan but as someone who loves your club and what your club stands for this would worry me Sure and just speaking as a football fan as against somebody who knows a little bit about finance you've got to question which type of player is going to come to the club in that situation in January so we're crying out for a number nine crying out for a right back just think about a number nine for a second let's imagine for a second there's a young lad out there somewhere who's already slotting in 20 goals a season in some league somewhere.

26:51And Everton come along and what do Everton actually offer that kid? The owners have to be custodians of the players' prospects as much as they are custodians of the fans. And I don't think Everton are in a position to offer that at this moment in time. So whomever we bring in is not likely to be the person or the people who are going to take the club from where we are now to where we want to be. I'm reticent to say it, but this conversation alludes to the fact, doesn't it, Paul, that there is a tipping point here because this is a very modern conversation. We're not talking trophies here. We're not talking about the climb to success.

27:30We're literally talking about who would buy a football club with football at the front of their mind, and it's hard to find an answer. But for me, everything is going in a different direction from what a sensible new investor in a football club would want it to go. And for that reason, for that reason alone, I find it difficult to see where Everton find that new owner and what changes to Everton. What can the Freakins offer a new owner that makes the situation any better than it currently is? Yeah. Realistically, a club like Everton and never, well, certainly maybe not in any of our lifetimes, be challenging for league titles every season again.

28:15But I think within that restrictive model, Everton still could have done so much better with what they've been doing over the last few years. Within this restrictive model, Palace have won two trophies, Newcastle have won one, Villa have won one. Those teams have all played in Europe. Brighton are in Europe this season. Bournemouth are in Europe this season. Sunderland came up last season and they're in Europe this season. And I think it does stop you from getting to that top level. but I think as an Everton supporter like I'm not sitting here saying I want us to be challenging for league titles every year Correct I just you know a cup every a cup every 10 years I do me From a business point of view I'd point out that all of those things you mentioned Burley take a chip out of the side of the rock of that stranglehold of being in the Champions League every year but I totally agree with you like I don't think football fans are screaming these days about we want to dominate everything and if we're not winning FA Cups and Leagues it's a disgrace I just want to feel some joy You just want to feel like your club's stable and you can be at the party.

29:16You can have a seat at the table of the party. You don't want to feel like you're the one sitting at the back of the dance floor on your own. That's the problem, right, isn't it? Absolutely. And I think a lot's made about Everton in 1995, but they haven't been to Wembley for maybe 11 years by the time the season finishes. They haven't played in Europe for 10 years. And I think it's those things you see, to reference Bournemouth again. You see that last night. and you're thinking, I'd love a bit of that. You know, you see teams coming to, you know, Spurs have won a trophy as well, despite everything that's going on there.

29:49And I appreciate these clubs have got issues in terms of the long term, whether you've been finishing the Premier League, etc. But Everton have been restricted by these models, don't get me wrong, but what happened with the previous ownership and maybe to a lesser extent, what happens to this one? And the people they've put in place in terms of the staff and the managers they've appointed and the boardrooms, they could have done so much better they could have appointed so many people who could have made better decisions and got Everton into a situation where they could have done what Palace have done there's been none of that at Everton for the best part of a decade now and I think to take it back to what I was talking about at the start and this feeling of status again that's what's going on with the Freakins now just sort of underlines all that doesn't it Everton have just sort of existed in the Premier League for about 10 years now and it looks like they just kind of sort of exist for a little bit longer, yeah.

30:41It kind of is a strange one because there's so many levels to this, but we keep coming back to the two or three truths, don't we, of the free room group at Everton here, that one food out the door, how you've managed the club, how hands-on you have been. I'm worried, can we just do an emotional as we sort of get towards the end? I'm worried about if the club doesn't sell. This limbo really, really worries me, Paul. The vanity of people with more money and sense to have a Premier League club in their portfolio, but also it can fuel other businesses. It's a mark of global recognition. You don't need to explain it.

31:16You know, I would argue I could say to you that I own the Winnipeg Jets and you'd say to me, and what is that now? It really established sporting leagues that have a global audience. You have to explain teams outside the top four or five. That's not the case. If you say you own Everton, you own Sunderland, you carry the world. So there is that side of it. and just the other thing I want to say there's a generational thing here if you're an 18 year old you see Everton as a team who have fought with relegation in recent years had a lot of ownership issues as well have moved to a new stadium you don't see what I see but I just want to make this point because we talk about business but we're always talking about people I remember when you won the Cup Winners Cup when I was a kid I remember that my mum had dyed my white gym socks blew by accident.

32:07And I remember when you went three one up, my stepfather walking into the room and going, I'll take the bad language out. What are you cheering for, son? We're a Liverpool house from birth for 90 years, right? I said, well, you told me they were my neighbours. You don't cheer them. I said, but I like Cindy who lives next door. He says, you can't cheer them on, son. And I've always been this weird Liverpool fan who always carry that with me. The point I want to make to that is and sorry to use the phrase but this is a grand old team this is a grand old team it's really emotional to see a situation where they would fall off the tracks here with the new stadium still to be paired and with everything like that everyone's willing them everyone's behind them one more point on the Freakins they can't get away with this scot-free they run a massively successful large business in the US, their reputation is one of being good, prudent, careful owners of businesses.

33:13And there is the chance that given that the Premier League is so high profile, given that their acquisition of Everton was high profile, if they screw this up, they screw up part at least of their own business reputation, they will know that they have to do something about the situation that they find themselves in, in order to protect their reputation elsewhere. Well, Matt and Paul, thank you so much for your time in high performance business. Most importantly, it is to sort of begin and end with the fans and you can do the business and you can still not leave the fans outside in the rain. So thank you so much for being here.

33:50I hope it's sooner rather than later. I hope the new owner comes in understands the history of this great club. And yes, thank you so much for your time. And with that in mind, you know, this show is for fans, isn't it? So please like, subscribe, DM us and tell us what you'd like us to talk about next time. And Natalie, this is probably tempting fate, but I'd like to hear from Everton fans. Do we get a little bit closer, thanks to these amazing guests, to sort of how you're feeling as Everton fans? Because the point of this podcast, it might not work, but the point of it is to try and talk about the business while not excluding the fans.

34:22And I'd like to know, do we get a little bit close to that? If not, what can we do better? Yeah, tell us in the comments. Also tell us what you think of this snazzy jumper, which I've been quite enjoying. It's a cardigan. I'm on that bombshell. We'll see you next time. you next time.