Ex Premier League Exec Chairman on Man City & Football's Soaring Wages

0:00Well, this week's guest spent almost 20 years turning the Premier League into a global commercial powerhouse. We were lucky enough to get Richard Scudamore's thoughts on Manchester City. But of course, in true news tradition, it was minutes before the Manchester City charges dropped. So we haven't got his thoughts on that, but we do have his thoughts on fans, investment in the game and of course, the independent regulator. Welcome to High Performance Business in proud partnership with IFS. Thank you so much. You and I have chatted quite a lot in the past, but never with a brew. We never had a chance to sit down and do this.

0:36I want to start with the obvious, the Premier League. What do you think your legacy is from that job? It's lovely to see you, nice to talk to you, but the word legacy always sends me off into a bit of a hair on the back of the neck. Oh, come on. Don't really like it, you know, because legacy, there's a bit too much ego in that for me, really. Just the whole concept. But what you do when you're in any job, and it was a job, it was a job of work and people, you know, for whatever else it might be, it was a job of work. Do you leave it in a better shape than when you arrived? And that's all you can do, right?

1:10That's all you can do. And it has gone on to greater things, bigger, better, brighter, greater things since I've left. And that's really the thing you're proudest of in many ways. People talk about numbers so much. and I know when you came in and where you left, for example, broadcasting rights, when you left, it was worth over five billion, that package, wasn't it? People talk about numbers. They talk about revenue. Yes, of course they do. That's sort of the big headline, isn't it? You know, the TV rights were worth X and now they're worth Y. But nothing happens without the sports, does it? So the most, I think the thing that still amazes me and I watch a lot of football still is how good it looks.

1:51And in 1992, something happened. These 20 clubs got together with the benefit of some extra cash from Sky. They produced a quality of football that the likes of which we'd never seen before. We'd seen football before, and it was nothing new. The leagues really didn't reorganize. There was the same top division, and there was three divisions below, promotion, relegation, 11 v 11. Everything was much the same. Referees made bad decisions then, they make bad decisions now. And so nothing's really changed other than it does look very exciting. When you came in, did you have an inkling or did you absolutely know financially we would be where we are now?

2:30No, no, not at all. What I knew was this. I come from the newspaper business. That was my background. And I knew about content. And I knew both journalistically good content people would be prepared to pay for. and I also knew that audiences were created in those newspapers and advertising, if you like, would be attached to those newspapers and there was a commercial model that I understood how it worked. When I came into the Premier League, I was at the EFL before and I remember my presentation I gave to the EFL board, you could, quite frankly, you could give today. It was literally, I can remember it to this day, and Trevor Birch, the EFL chief exec, and I've discussed it relatively recently.

3:13And so nothing much has changed. The Premier League is the Premier League. The EFL has its huge merits as well. Get over the divorce. They've gone off to do this, but they haven't gone anywhere. They haven't gone anywhere physically. They may have gone somewhere commercially, but they haven't gone anywhere physically. And so I did think that proper content and the way Sky were promoting it and presenting it and the way BBC were doing Match of the Day highlights, which was the great promoter of the live rights on the Sunday. There's a lovely little ecosystem here. I just thought it could be very good.

3:45You said at the time that your sort of job was keeping everyone equally dissatisfied. Yeah, it was. Do you think that's still true to this day? Do you think it's actually getting even harder to keep everyone happy? You don't keep anyone happy. This is football. Your listeners are not that daft, right? They're not happy. There's no fan that's happy. There's hardly any fans that are happy. There are fans that go through short-term periods of happiness. and the deep joy of winning away from home on a Tuesday night in the northwest of England still never leaves you, right? But that's a temporary thing.

4:20What you can't do if you are running a league, you are basically the prime pillar of independence and your job is to try and come up with initiatives and things that are broadly acceptable to everyone, probably precisely acceptable to no one. So if you handed the job over to an individual club, they would all have a different view. Often depending on where they naturally or not naturally sit in the league table. Those facing relegation have a view. Those threatened with getting into those relegation places have a view. Those that are qualifying for Europe on a regular basis have a view. And those that are aspiring to qualify for Europe on a regular basis have a view.

5:02So you do need somebody with a, it's not an entirely independent view in a sense, but it is your job is to take all those views, put them into the mixer, put them into the blender really and come back with something that is palatable, palatable to everyone but not precisely what any one of them would have done had they been left to themselves. So what then is your biggest takeaway from what you learn from dealing with club owners on a sort of regular basis? Hard work, communication. Because you have to convince them you're neutral. You know, I remember at my leaving event, you know, one of the bigger clubs saying that, you know, I was always, you know, a softie for the smaller clubs.

5:47And somebody from the smaller clubs stood up and said that they always knew I was in the pocket of the big clubs. So that actually was good, right? I'm happy with that. You're like the BBC. I'm happy with that. I'm just happy with that. Because they both, and both things can be true at the same time, if you know what I mean, because you have to have a relationship with all of them. When you sort of look at the Premier League now, because you've been out of it now for some time, are you able to sort of stand back and go, I wouldn't have done it like that? I don't ever look at it as though I was in the job.

6:14I never have. Because that doesn't suit me and my mental health. It doesn't suit, I'm sure, my successors, right? But you just don't get into that. The last thing you want to be is old Uncle Fester in the corner going, I wouldn't have done it like that, right? Because everything's a new challenge. Well, yeah, I'll do that again later. But the reality is, you know, I was very lucky in two senses. I got out at a time that suited me. I was nearly 60. I'd done it for almost, I'd done it for 20 years. I mean, it's a long, it's a good old ride around that. But I never saw anything coming. But the thing I never particularly saw, neither did anybody else, was COVID.

6:50The people who came after me faced much bigger challenges than I ever faced because I was able from the entire time I was there to start in August, end in May, 380 matches. you know all the games played all the games you know the league tables were the league tables and it was just much easier let's speak about man city this is a huge huge thing that the premier league are having to grapple with one of its hugest teams

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9:09this not falling on your doorstep well it started when i was there of course it was it's been going for that long that's the thing i was there yeah but i'm not look you know you have your own challenges to face don't you we had you know we had ashley cole being tapped up we had all sorts of things there's always things going on we had tevez mascarano we had all sorts of things going on i forgot about tevez mascarano no you didn't no you didn't i'm glad i remember you know wherever you are you know but i also you know i had much more i had also existential things when i was there we had the european commission wanting to you know stop television rights being sold collectively fought that for five years and so you know these jobs i know people think these must be the best jobs in the world because you know you just meet footballers and you know you just go to matches and there are just now right now you know the the whether it was me or now richard masters there's always challenges and i'm i don't i don't sit thinking oh glad that wasn't me i you just because it's not it's not what you think can you believe it's been going this long though no i can't believe it neither can anybody but then neither can richard masters either you know so so he's as frustrated believe you me he is as frustrated as anybody.

10:15And at some point, and that's why when, in fairness to him, he does his faithful pre-season media back a few weeks back. He says, I can't say anything because I don't know anything. And when I do, you know, everybody will know. And that is genuinely how it is. He's as frustrated as anyone. We've just had another record-breaking summer transfer. Then we're looking at, what, three and a half billion. Is there anything about the spending now that worries you? Do you think it's sustainable? Clearly, it's a product of, like, all things. Like, how much mortgage can somebody have is a product of how much they earn and what the interest rates are and everything else.

10:51And so the transfer fees are a product of what income they think is, what income they have, what they're guaranteed to have, and what they think they might have in the future. And the great bit about the way the Premier League is set up, everything is pretty much rolling three years in advance. so they know what they're it's very easy to predict revenues in the Premier League because the way the TV deals are done very little default there's been hardly any and then you know what your season ticket revenues are it's a pretty easy model to write the revenue therefore it's very easy to work out what you can spend and there are all sorts of people out there because of those two factors particularly the certainty of revenue, they are prepared to advance you or use that money.

11:44So, worry is not the word, right? But, of course, what you have to do, all sport has to keep to the fundamentals of being able to ultimately pay the obligations that you've put the club under. And touch wood, touch wood, the Premier League clubs have been able to do that. But even UEFA recently have come out with a report that says, you know, they're concerned. They're concerned that some clubs are reliant on how much they're going to eventually sell these players for in the future. And that kind of brings us on to financial fair play as well, because it's all been changed this year. Firstly, do you see why UEFA are worried?

12:24Can you understand why they're sort of noting a word of caution? This notion of financial fair play started in UEFA. And it's very hard to know what the true motivation was. Was it, and I still don't know the answer to this question, was it genuinely a concern for the sustainability and the longevity of clubs? Or was it, and there's a lot of pressure on this, another European scheme egged on by the jealous to peg the Premier League back, right? Because that is, you know, that is still real today. And it was as real when, and financial fair play came in, it was fundamentally UEFA wanted nobody to be able to spend more than their revenue that was it you know and so and and around our table the Manchester United's and the Arsenal's were all for it because they had the biggest revenues right and so they've they've always UEFA have always been out there and I think they would they would dearly have loved from the beginning here's your income here's what you can spend no loss no no no no owner equity no injection of capital of course you and I know that that's not really how English football has been.

13:33Since time began, get your checkbook out, Mr Chairman, or latterly, you know, Sovereign Wealth Fund, please dump all your cash into our club so that we can, you know, we can take on the rest. It's always been the nature of European football. So, look, UEFA have a great role to play because, of course, they've got those fantastic competitions. And so they're right to express their opinion, but I don't see it quite in the same concerning way, away. Not in the same way. Okay. So obviously, we've got these new financial fair play rules, SSR, SCR, I won't even go over them again, because they're, you know, complicated.

14:10I think broadly, they were brought in, in an attempt to level the playing field. We can argue that on another day. Yeah, a lot of critics think it has sort of shorn up the position of the bigger clubs. Where do you stand on it? Well, the one thing that's hard to defend, and therefore I think needs looking at, is the absolute unfettered, uncapped amount of money spent on player wages and costs. And therefore, if you like, Fair Play, which was UEFA's, not the Premier League's, the Premier League has obviously PSR, which was a different calculation, because we insisted on there being some allowance quite a lot, really, when I was there, and it's the same now.

15:01There was an allowance for clubs to be able to spend and inject capital and inject equity to get them closer to those that had higher revenues. Otherwise, you just locked the table in, wouldn't you, from 1 to 20, you may as well. And so I think I don't have a problem with the idea that is there a way of at least putting some dampener on that wage bill that the clubs run. And that's a different part of the economics than transfer fees and everything else because that money goes circulating round, as you've seen. So the relationship between costs of a playing squad in terms of its salary costs and its own costs and its agent's fees and everything else, the cost of actually those salaries, I don't think there's any real problem with putting some limit, it's not a hard cap as such, because it's related as a percentage of income.

15:54I don't see there's any problem with that, but people add it all up and make it one and the same problem. Transfer fees, to me, is very different, because those transfer fees are going somewhere else. When you pay those transfer fees, I mean, the interesting stat, I haven't got the precise number, but it was the highest ever recirculation within the Premier League this summer as well, where people spent money within the league, which is again and down into the championship and down into the EFL. So I think it's a different thing. I look from a distance. I'm not intimately involved. I don't look at every club's details.

16:30But I think some sort of cap to stop the wage bill going right through the roof uncapped I think is a good idea. And the squad cost ratios get you there. That's really interesting because obviously they have a wage cap in leagues such as MLS. but would that not be an immediate sort of restriction of trade? The Premier League's become huge. How do you then attract the big players if you are saying to them actually you can't earn Harling's level... You're saying like a union leader. In another life maybe, Richard. Can you imagine Natalie Perks, union leader... Yeah, I know you could. Oh, no doubt you could do it.

17:07Look, is it a restraint of trade? We're talking about the aggregate. We're not talking about... It's not an individual wage cap, is it? It's a massive number. If it's 300, 400 million, are you really saying that that stops a club from signing any player, really? I mean, it's really the way you divide your deck, isn't it? Yeah. Maybe I'm sort of thinking more, if you are, let's say, Manchester City, and you want to attract the absolute best players, which of course they do, if you've only, and I'm using rabbit ears here, if you've only got 400 million, you've got to then go, right, we want Haaland, we want X, Y, Z, and how much we're going to pay them, that's a jigsaw.

17:45Of course, but then they've got too many players anyway, haven't they? All I'm saying is there is no real reason why if you really wanted a particular player, you couldn't find room for them in your squad. And there's still, I go back to something I said earlier, there's still only 11 on the field at any one time. Sure. Right? So if what you're saying is can they just hoard and have 25 of the world's top 30 players, no, they can't. But then is that wrong, really? You know, I don't see where there's... There is nothing under the current rules that stops a club that's got a good plan, a good recruitment plan.

18:23And remember, people talk about player recruitment. It's not recruitment anymore. It's player trading. You know, you are... There's a dynamism to your squad these days that is, OK, you know, this is our squad. This is what we've got. This is what we'd like. Who are we exiting to up the quality of our squad? And so that's how it works. And so I don't see it's really a restraint. I never thought I would sit here and hear you effectively argue, sort of, it sounds like what you're doing, for a wage cap in the Premier League. If it gets to a level where it is completely ludicrous, right, you know, the strength of the Premier League and the way it divides its central revenue, where the, you know, I don't know what the numbers are, but the top clubs probably now from the central distribution are probably getting somewhere near 200 million, the smallest club.

19:10People talk about this, they get 100 million when they go down. No, they don't. No, they don't. They get 100, 110 million for being in, right? They will get about 110, 120 million. And that, the point of that, that ratio, that 1.82 to 1, whatever the ratio is, top to bottom, guess what it does? It allows the bottom teams to put a squad out. It gives them a chance of taking points off the top teams. That's what everybody wants. The biggest joy I've had since I left is looking at the league table with all the B's up there. You know, the Bournemouth, the Brighton's, the Brentford's, you know what I mean?

19:45Because when you look at the league table now, when you look at the league table last year, the way it ended, there's names up there. You think, how can they be there? And are you also saying this with another B cap on? Because, of course, with Bristol City, you're on the board of directors, you know, you want to eventually become a Premier League side, I presume. And coming up into a world where there maybe aren't unfettered wages, which are just going out of control, maybe a world where they are a bit more controlled, that would benefit you, wouldn't it? I don't know. I don't sit around that table necessarily looking at things through the same lens as everybody, even in the championship.

20:25I'm talking about, I think, I don't want to make a bigger issue than there must be a number, a very big number, beyond which you don't need for a wage bill to put together a fantastic Premier League team. And of course, the other aspect of this, we mustn't forget, it's not just putting together a brilliant Premier League team, it's putting together a Premier League team that then goes on and competes and does well in Europe. And that's the difference between the Premier League and many other sports, between many other things, because the Premier League isn't necessarily the end to itself. you're building a system that allows the biggest clubs to go on and succeed in Europe and that's part of the model always has been so you've got nearly three I's you've got one eye on what's good for the league you've got one eye on what's good for the whole of football because it's still part of an ecosystem and you've got one eye on what's good for the clubs that then go on into Europe and you have to that's the trick Let's talk a bit about who regulates football because you were always very clear.

21:27You believed self-regulation is the best form of regulation. Do you still believe that now? Self-regulation, the way you said it even, sounds like it's some sort of way you just do it yourself. But let's go first of all, number one, law of the land. So everybody has to abide by the laws of the land. And there's lots of things around finance, around money, around accounts and accounting. You know, the law of the land comes first. And then up until most of the time I was there, the law of Europe and the ECJ and everything else came first and second, right? And so that's not quite the same now. And then you had the FIFA statutes and what they decreed had to happen.

22:09Then you have the FA statutes. And so the league themselves really was a trade association rulebook between how the 20 weren't going to behave towards each other. And therefore, I always believe, and I believe to this day, there is enough regulation. We know where you stand on an independent football regulator. They are here. We're going to hear of their state of the game report fairly soon. I guess for a lot of people, it was the fans point of view and how fans felt like they were being maybe priced out of their football club, or it was sort of getting out of control. We saw teams going bust, all these kind of things, which is why it was essentially brought in.

22:46Do you think it's more something that should regulate championship and below and therefore not the Premier League? Do you think they more or less... No, I wouldn't. No, no, no. Even in your question, you know, clubs going... We've seen clubs going bust. You know, they don't... Very few do and very few have. Finances are a problem, though, in football. The truth is clubs do not go bust. What's the definition of professional football? You either... You pay to play and people pay to watch. There's no other definition, really. And so since 1888, People have been paid to play by local business owners or factories or whatever, and people have come in and paid a little bit of money to watch.

23:29And so what's happened, it's amazing how many people have been found to keep those clubs alive, right? And on occasion, though, they get to a point where through mismanagement, bad management, or bad luck, you know, a ball can hit a post, and you know in this game, and come back out, and a ball hits a post and goes in, your life is different, right? Life is different. So add mismanagement and mismanagement to luck and bad luck because it's a massive part of football because it's a low-scoring game. 0-0 is very similar to 0-1. It's very similar to 1-0, isn't it? And what a difference your life makes.

24:04You're either in the Champions League or not. You're either relegated, promoted, Premier League or not. You're either in business or not in business. That's kind of why we love it as well, though, isn't it? Exactly. And so that gets to my point.

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25:38ever since time began it's been a speculative business and people take risks and do i do understand listen i'm sitting here complacent because the the only club that really really matters to me has been owned by a billionaire for the last 26 years quite handy who has put a shed load of money in and kept us in business for those 26 years and there's not a single Bristol City fan who wakes up in the morning worrying about the existence of their club. You know, they worry about other things and they're never satisfied and they'd like to see us in the Premier League and all that stuff. I get all that, but there's really no fundamental worry.

26:16That is the game though. The game is you find the money you can, you put those resources against it and some people take risks just like Peter Risdale back in the 2000s with Leeds, took a risk, got them to the Champions League, you know, stick or twist, if you'd have asked the 36 ,500 Leeds fans at Ellen Road that night to stick or twist, you know the answer to that question. Twist, bet the farm, come on. And it jeopardizes, ultimately it jeopardizes the club. And so what is the job of the regulator beyond that? If the idea that the leagues, both the Premier League when I was there, the Premier League now, the EFL, under the guidance of Trevor and Rick Parry, they are every day concerned in the sustainability and the viability of those clubs.

27:02It's the most important thing. It's a bit like when you get on a plane, I know we all sort of dismiss it, when the pilot says, you know, your safety is our number one priority, everybody goes, oh yeah, right, come on, get on, get on with the food or get on with them, get the Wi-Fi going. But you just wash it over you. But actually, when you actually logically think about it, that is their number one priority. And when you run a league, your number one priority is the sustainability and the continued existence of football clubs. So nobody's going to do anything to jeopardise them. I guess that a lot of people, as fans, will feel like the independent regulator's job is to protect them.

27:40And we've seen a lot of fans protest, certainly about ticket prices. You said, you know, a fan comes along and pays a little bit to watch a football match. I don't think they're paying a little bit to watch football now. and maybe that's a role that, you know, does a football club have to do more for its fans? But what bit? There's not an intimate understanding of what currently exists within the rules, right? So what is it about their club that they really, really want protecting because ground location is protected by rule, you know, club assets, club badges, you know, is protected by rule. What the regulator is not going to do, it's not like Ofcom or Ofgen or Ofort, They're not going to come in and regulate the prices of what it costs to go to a Premier League football game or a Championship football game.

28:26It's just not within the remit. It's just, so, you know, the things that really matter to fans, right, are pretty heavily regulated. The things that irritate fans, and I get it, you know, displacement of football matches, why can't, you know, the timing of kickoffs and the notice of kickoff times and all those things and ticket pricing per se, you know, I'm afraid the regulator is not going to, I don't want to set expectations too high for David Cogan, who I know well. But you've got to be careful. This isn't going to be the panacea for everything you ever wanted in dreamland from a football environment.

29:05It's not going to be. The main objective of the regulator is to ensure sustainability of a football club. Let me put you a different scenario. Let's say the regulator came along and said, right, all 92 of you that currently exist, we're going to guarantee sustainability. But not a single one of you is allowed to invest a penny to improve your team, right? Now, so what then? What then is the answer to the question? Because what the truth is, and I can put my fan hat on here, they take sustainability as a given. My club will always exist. What I really want my club to do is to improve its position, wherever you are in the league.

29:48And so that's why it's hard, because fandom have an unrealistic... I mean, they don't really want sustainability. We could put rules in tomorrow. The leagues could have put rules in 10, 20 years ago to say there is no way that this club can ever, you know, ever be put at risk. But in so doing, you'd have to say, therefore you can take no speculation, you can make no investment, because what the fans really want, really want, Is there a club to be a little bit higher up the league than they were? Or in Europe next season. And whilst that exists, whilst that tension exists, that's ultimately the tension.

30:23And there is a tension, isn't there? Because there's that sort of, an owner comes in, say you're a private equity firm and you're buying up a Premier League club, commercialisation of football means that you can see there's an amount of money that you could start to make more than what the club currently is making. And I guess that's where the tension comes in with fans. English football generally, every single fan is attending a subsidised event. Subsidised by an owner often, right? I mean, that's the truth of it. If that sounds a bit harsh, all of us that go to Bristol City every week are having a subsidised event.

31:02It's a nicer stadium and it's a bigger wage bill and it's a bigger squad than we are prepared to pay from our pockets, right? So we've established you're not a big fan of an independent regulator, is that fair? No, in fairness, in fairness, if it focuses minds and gets people thinking about things. But I still, even though, as you know, I've read the legislation, I've read the brief, I've read everything, I just still don't know quite what it's there to do. Because people are even now obsessing about its backstop powers to try and arrange some, force some settlement between the two leagues. But English football needs to do that for itself.

31:42There was that huge moment in 2021 where the six big teams wanted to break away and join the European Super League. Take us back to that time. I was on record for the weeks and months before when it was brewing of telling people, whoever rang me and said, what do you think? I said, it's never going to happen. Can't happen. And they go, well, why can't it happen? I said, well, first of all, I mean, these clubs would have to leave the, the English clubs would have to leave the Premier League. Then they'd have to leave the Champions League. and then there'd be sanctions across the gate. There's nothing within the rules that allows them to go.

32:17And that's, I said, on a sort of legal basis in my view. And then you wait till the fans find out. I said, that'll stop it in its tracks. And they would be, well, yeah, but it's already, people were saying to me, oh, yes, but J.P. Morgan have already done this, this, and this. I said, J.P. Morgan can do what they want. I'm telling you, they haven't met. that haven't met a fan base head on. This plan hasn't even met its first level of resistance yet. I said, so I don't think... And so you couch this as, you know, under self-regulation, the Super League. The Super League, A, didn't happen. B, yes.

32:52You know, despite all... I spoke to all the clubs and I told them, it can't happen. Don't do it. It can't happen. Bad for your reputation. It can't happen. But they persisted because they didn't want to be left out. They thought if everybody else in Europe was going to do it, they needed to be part of it. It's not a real reason, but it's kind of a reason. But it was never going to happen. Was that the best sort of example of fan power, where fans really did... Because within 48 hours, that was dead in the water once the fans got involved. It was dead because the Premier League, the institutions, government, Boris Johnson, everybody, it was just like, it was never going to happen.

33:26It was just never going to happen. It couldn't happen because it was a complete rip-up of what really domestic league football is all about. You can talk about football all day, every day. The unit, the real unit of football is a club and the real cake is domestic league football. And everything else is icing and cherries, whether that's European competition or the cherry of the, maybe the FA Cup or the cherry of the club world championship. But the cake has always been domestic football, and that's never going to be ripped up. When you were there, you had a strong opinion about Gianni Infantino.

34:09I did, yeah. The Club World Cup was a particular tension point. What did you make of what happened after the World Cup with his plan to try and sell it off? What did you think of that? Well, I was first very offended by the red card rescinding for Balogun. Flo Balogun, yeah. The idea that Donald Trump, if he did or he didn't, who knows, and Infantino suddenly think it's a good idea to rescind a red card, that to me was more shocking than what came after. Because what came after is just another idea that gets run up the flagpole. It's probably got no chance of succeeding. But I thought the red card goes right to the heart of the sport.

34:51Well, the sport. What is the sport? is. This is you play by the... The sport is, you know, those are the rules of the game. The FA and UEFA have been pretty clear on how they feel about Infantino. Do you think football deserves better? Do you think it needs a different person at the helm? So I never in my 20 years walked around thinking or walked into a club where I thought they're being nice to me because they think I'm going to leave some money behind. Because I had no influence on it. The only influence I had was outside, was putting the money into the top of the hopper. And then, of course, I had some influence in the way we set the rules as to how it was divided.

35:28But it was not a specific club. It was just the whole way. The rules set it. Compare and contrast that with FIFA. Just the idea that somebody can go on a campaign trail and say, if you vote for me, I'll give you all three million. That's how he got the job in 2016. Or the way he gets red carpeted when he goes places because, hey, you know, it'd be nice if you could leave, you know, as the private jet leaves, it'd be nice if you could drop a bag of, you know, a couple of mil out the back door. The way FIFA don't have any real precision around the way the money's handed out, you vest that sort of discretion of spend in the presidency, and I think it makes for a...

36:09That's the bit that I would change the most, is an agreed, all the national associations, however many there are now, 213 of them sitting around, in having a proper go at rules as to how the money gets divided. Then, of course, when you've got rules about how the money's divided, there's less of an issue about, you know, you're then freer to go and, you know, commercialise and do things at the top because at least people can see where it's going and how it's going. When you were at the Premier League, you were quite vocal about wanting that 39th. It was called the 39th game abroad. and it's worked really well in places like NFL often come over and have games here where do you stand on it now?

36:51do you still feel it's something they should do? it was an idea you've got to remember when it was it was 2007-2008 and there was some doubt as to whether media rights would continue to grow and whether international rights would continue to grow absent of actually going and visiting as it turns out now there was no need to go play those games abroad. The revenues now internationally for the Premier League are larger than the domestic revenues. And so around the world, it has continued to capture the imagination. But that's partly to do with the commitment of broadcasters and the commitment to broadcasters, not just the volume, but the quality of the broadcast and the advent of 4K high-definition television.

37:34And so, you know, you can now quite easily sit at home on a very nice large screen 4K TV and get a pretty decent experience in the way the broadcasters, but you know the way NBC have gone about presenting in America, the way if you go to South Africa, Super Sport, you go to Australia, you go to Asia, you go to all these places, Hong Kong, Singapore, it looks fantastic. And therefore the Premier League has continued over the last 20 years to look fantastic on television. And that's a combination of better quality production, better quality of TV sets, And just so the need to feel like in order to continue to grow internationally was, I'm not so sure you need to go and play the games here anymore.

38:19Another thing about fans is their thoughts on VAR. Now, you are obviously a fan of a club that doesn't have to deal with it. How much nicer is it to watch championship football when you're not having to look at VAR or worry about VAR? Well, if I go to a Premier League game, I don't sit there with the same absolute avid interest when the goal goes, when the ball goes in, right? So I don't get, you know, I'm not leaping out of my seat at a Premier League game like I am at a championship game. But all I know is when a goal goes in in a championship game, I now do what I used to do, you know, I've always done.

38:54Look straight at the linesman. If there's no flag... You're going for it. We're still going for it. We're losing hats and, you know, we're hugging our neighbours and I'm looking down because my kids all sit in season tickets a few rows, about 12 rows over a block and we're like, yeah! But, you know, so it is great. So that's still fantastic. You just look at the linesman's flag. Sorry, assistant referee's flag. See how old I am? Yes, yes. Assistant referee's flag. And if that's not up, you're off, right? But, you know, that's not to say I'm not a, you know, you can't be a fan of VAR, can you? VAR was, you know, VAR was a response to the pressure of clubs wanting to get decisions more right.

39:35Or writer, I don't know what it is. More right, probably. And the pressure of media and the pressure of fans, everybody wants it to get more decisions right. And it does get more decisions right. The problem is those that become arguable are even more emotive. But there's no doubt they have made more right decisions as a result of that. And this is the thing. I guess it's taken some of the joy away in the Premier League, I think. Don't know. I don't know. I'm not a fan of a Premier League. You do know because you've just said that you don't celebrate a goal yet in the Premier League. No, I don't ever celebrate a goal when I'm watching because I'm not supporting any of the teams.

40:13You know what you just said. I've been for 25 years privileged enough to be invited to Premier League games and I sit there and I watch as a neutral. I've never been to a Premier League game wanting one side to win more than another. Really? Never. I'm hoping that to change next year or the year after when Ashton Gate hosts its first Premier League game. If you watch an absolute screamer go top bins in the Premier League and you want to go, oh, turn to your friend next to you and go, what a goal. I just want the referees to come out of the game all right. Because when you're there as a neutral, I always thought if a CEO of the Premier League when I was there, if the institutions can't support the referees, who can, right?

40:54Because it's the toughest job. And believe you me, a game without one is not a game at all, right? And they've got a tough job. And every game I was at, I just wanted the referees to come out okay. You were a qualified referee. I was. Back in the day. Back in the day. Back in the day, yeah. Back in the day when you could, would you have wanted VAR? I don't know. I never got to that level. You know, I don't... Sitting on the back, Richard. I was running around the parks in Bristol. I mean, I don't know what it's like to run out in Anfield or Old Trafford and take the pressure of that. It's a lot of pressure.

41:23I mean, the refs have talked about that pressure. Look, all I know is the referees wanted the help because they too want to get it right. You know, they wanted the help. In my time at the Premier League, the clubs generally were hugely supportive and some of the people that you might not necessarily think were particularly warm and cuddly would be very supportive of referees. One final thing. One thing the Prime Minister has talked about is drinking at football matches. I think it's discriminatory of football fans that they can't drink in view of the pitch. Now, it's worked in trials in women's football in some stadiums, different products.

42:02you're looking at me like I'm mental for asking you this question. It's current. I know what you're asking. Yeah. What do you think? Well, I don't think it was helpful that Andy Burnham used the word discriminatory. In the early 80s, Margaret Thatcher didn't want any fans to be, you know, wave fans at matches. The Hooglism was shocking. And in 1986, not a single match was broadcast on television. Not even a match of the day highlights programme. And people have to remember these were different times. 40 years ago. So all that Mr Burnham needed to say, and I think is maybe it is time for the people whose job it is to keep these grounds safe and to keep the consumer product as good as it is now, to sit round and let's have a discussion about it.

42:47I guess the police need to be involved with this conversation, don't they? Of course. Safe what? Police and safety officers, people who run clubs, right? But the trouble is you can't prove an unknown, can you? You know, it's very hard, very hard with all these things. You know, what if we did this, what if we did that? But it comes down to me, to the consumer experience. All I would say, I've been privileged and lucky enough to be invited to go to Twickenham quite a lot over the last 20 years. And that's become quite... That is not good. Are you telling me that you've never snuck a cider into a coffee cup and sat in the director's box?

43:18No, but I would say this. The final thing I'll say is my club president, Marina Dolman, who is 90 years old and sits next to me at every match, does slip a little brandy into her hot chocolate at halftime. She is someone that would be my friend. She would, but she would. She's everybody's friend. She's marvellous. Richard, thank you. I actually could talk to you for days. I know you don't want that, but I could. Thank you so much for coming on. Hopefully you can come on again. Now, when it comes to you as fans, we don't want you sitting on the sidelines. We are bringing fans off the bench, which is a short segment at the end of every show where we bring you as listeners into the show.

43:55We want the stories that you normally tell your mates after match day or race day, the great calls, the questionable decisions and the stories that you'll never live down, the moments that made you fall in love with sport in the first place. You can DM us at highperformance.business on Instagram. And I've got one this week where I was at a football club teaching some wonderful academy scholars how to deal with us, the media. And well, let's just say it made me feel incredibly old. One of them at the end asked me about the time I interviewed Kylian Mbappe, right? And he said to me, quote, is he faster than the cars?

44:35Does that mean anything to you? No. You're looking as confused as I did. Yeah. And so I said, I'm sorry, what now? And he said, is he faster than the cars? And I genuinely had no idea what he meant. I am chronically online. I would count myself as someone that's often on Instagram I had literally no idea it's a meme it's a Martin Brundle thing that Mbappe got asked at a Grand Prix I had no idea and I felt like this small and this old like I had some twin set and pearls I was the oldest person ever there was you thinking you had cred exactly I walked in there feeling all right about myself I walked out not feeling great so that's my story for the week Yeah, that's not the worst thing that could happen to you.

45:17No, it's not. No, there's been far worse in 25 years in football. Yeah, we'll leave it there. All right.