How Entrepreneurs Win in the Age of TikTok | Thea Green

0:00I think the naivety that you have at the beginning, I mean I wish I could bring it back because I could now find 75 reasons why something would fail. and I think I only had 75 reasons why Nails Inc. would succeed and I never really thought about any of the reasons it would fail and it's a real blessing for the start. Today we're joined by Thea Green, founder and CEO of Nails Inc., one of Britain's most recognisable beauty brands now sold right across the world. She's about to share with you the emotional highs and lows of entrepreneurship, the tough decisions and the big strategic pivots and of course the risks and consequences as she navigated the world of business.

0:36Brought to you by IFS. This is the room where it happened with Thea Green.

0:45The room I would take you into is into our head office. So into our Nails Inc headquarters, actually located just five minutes away from here. It's full of product and colour. It's a busy, manic, hardworking entrepreneurial office. I think rather than what it looks like, it's more what it feels like. It is full of energy and creativity and innovation. so what's happening in there on the day that you're taking us to on the day that we're talking about we made the decision to close our very last nail bar so we set the business up back in 1999 with nail bars and product very much at the heart of the business and most recently we had our last nail bar which was our flagship nail bar in Selfridges in Oxford Street and we decided to make that decision to close that last nail bar and focus purely on direct to consumer and retail, you know, selling the product directly to the customer versus the service operation.

1:39So at this point, you're kind of two decades plus into your nails, and a bit in your nails ink journey. What have the previous 25 odd years taught you about making these big decisions? So you're able to do something that some people might think is really quite an emotional day for you yeah and it not feel like that or maybe it did I think it doesn't feel emotional on the day that you make the decision because I think I always sort of have that thing you know when you're when it's your own business you often have the little nugget in your brain for quite a while saying to you you get the voice very early on I think when it's your own business um you're very in tune with it I'd almost say like being a parent like you are aware you can kind of almost see what's about to go right or wrong, you can see it almost in slow motion.

2:29A bit like with your children sometimes. And so I think I'd had that nugget in my head to say, we need to be we're growing at, you know, kind of great knots in over in product. And we need to be focused on that. Because I truly believe if you're in a service business, you need to live and breathe. It's like a restaurant, you just need to be in that restaurant all day in the kitchen front of house. And it's exactly the same with services and salons you need to be there all day but the business had moved very much to being a very successful wholesale business we were you know sort of stocked in thousands of stores across america just selling polish as well as in the uk and japan various other countries so the energy and the attention and everything was going into that and then one percent of my energy which isn't enough was going into kind of the original children um and yeah it's not it's not enough to make it, I don't think it's not the right, it's not the right thing to have something semi-irrelevant in your business and not to be giving it 100 % when it's so important and it's people and it's touching consumers, it needs to be right up there.

3:30And so it's better for somebody that's then very focused on salons to run that business. It's hard though, isn't it, when you refer to that part of your business as your original children. And I've seen you in previous interviews calling your business, you know, Nailsink, your baby. Yeah, first charge. Yeah, absolutely. Nail Sink's longer than any of my children. So yeah, it's absolutely a part of you. And it's a big part of your identity, your personality. And I do think, you know, we talked about this before we started. I think some of the rules, though, you've created for yourself, which is we are an operator of product and nail bars.

4:04Well, so say us, right? You know, meanwhile, the consumer is hugely engaged in the product side of the business. And, you know, like anything it grows it grows up and it has to pivot and change to be a success it's very unlikely that a business you know with 26 years old at Nails Inc it's very unlikely that a business can be the same for 26 years it will you'll make small and big decisions and tough decisions during that time but if you don't make decisions and you don't pivot you'll probably become obsolete you have to change so how do you as a business owner kind of get it right when you've got a direction that you want to go and you have to believe in the direction you're taking the business because you're the founder, you're the owner of the business.

4:44But then there are times when the business tells you to make a different decision. How do you know that the decision you're making is the right one? Or do you kind of follow the crowd, if you like? No, I don't follow the crowd, ever. I don't. I think that's quite dangerous. I think following, I always try, you know, Nails Inc's definitely a very flat structure. So I think anyone in my team would say, everyone's got a voice. And like great, for example, product ideas can come from anybody. You can be working at Nails Inc. for a few weeks on a summer intern program if you're doing a project with us and you come up with a great idea and that's a good idea.

5:18Things go forward in terms of product with Nails Inc. all the time. Anyone can have a voice. I don't believe that in terms of leadership. I don't believe you can have multiple people pulling the business in multiple ways when it comes to actually decisions like we are focusing our strategy on X. I think people need to hear that from one voice. in business where you've got two co-founders then very differently. But I think they need to hear that from the founder with a rationale of why. I think that kind of managing by proxy with multiple people, I've seen it and I think it gets very confusing for a team very quickly because they're not also, a lot of people in my business don't want to make that kind of a decision.

6:00They want to make a different decision but they don't want to make a call, that real ultimate call decision. In fact, I would say most people in my business don't want to make that kind of a call. Let's talk then about the importance of you being flexible, sometimes with your team, sometimes because the industry is changing fast and you have to react accordingly, as you have done with the decision that you took in Selfridges and before that in other places. when you first set up a business and you're working as an editor in the media do you have any idea how much of your entire life this entrepreneurial journey is going to take over?

6:38No, and I actually think that's the joy I'm sort of watching it with my oldest son at the moment he's really entrepreneurial I think it's really quite good that you've got that naivety and I think that when I think about life you know, I've sold the business recently and I'm becoming part-time in the business And when I think about what's next, because I'll continue and advise and help Nails Inc team and board, but, you know, I probably will do another business at some point. I think the naivety that you have at the beginning, I mean, I wish I could bring it back because I could now find 75 reasons why something would fail.

7:09And I think I only had 75 reasons why Nails Inc would succeed. And I never really thought about any of the reasons it would fail. And it's a real blessing for the start. I've met a lot of entrepreneurs over the years. and you know probably far more than me but I just feel like that's the win the win is you just don't know and if you've got the tenacity and the strength to just keep going and you can take the fails and you keep planning, you're okay to take the fails because you know where you're going and you're so focused on that target that the fails sort of bounce off you it's quite something, I don't know that you can do it twice, I think it's easier first time round, I don't know if you can do it again If you can just take a couple of seconds to subscribe, then of course you can get each episode directly to your inbox.

7:57And honestly, for you to subscribe, it makes such a difference to our show. It means we can grow and it means we can attract more incredible guests like George Heaton, Rory Sutherland or Richard Branson. So if we go right back to the beginning of the business and you've got those 75 reasons that it will be successful. Yeah. What is the number one reason that you thought Nails Inc. would fly when you sat there and made a very brave decision to become a business owner, to become an entrepreneur? Because I only ever thought about the customer and I still only ever think about the customer. I was obsessed with that customer and how what she wanted and making her life easier with better quality products, easier products, cooler products, but also like a service that would be fast lunchtime before work, after work.

8:41And I still think of that today. I still do think we, you know, some, we have a small percentage of men that buy our polish as well, about 10%. But, you know, mainly we're talking to women. It's like 90%, sometimes 95 % of our products are sold to women. And so when I think about her, I think about a woman who is trying to fit in 70 things into her day every day. And I'm that woman too. And I was that woman in my 20s. And I'm that woman, you know, heading towards 50. I think if you just obsess on the customer, it's a really good compass. And I just, I was obsessed with her. and I've only ever followed what she wants.

9:15So in the end, she's the voice in my head more than my own. Right from the very first day? From the beginning. So you had the inspiration. How do you even then begin walking away from a salaried job that you could do for the rest of your life and guarantees you an income and set up Nails Inc.? So I was really honest with Tatler magazine at the time about what I was doing. I mean, Tatler was like an amazing place and it actually turned out, you know, it became quite an entrepreneurial place. Natalie Massonet was in the fashion department, who obviously went and set Net-a-Porter. Ben Fogel, who's obviously gone on, had a fantastic career, and many others.

9:52I think it bred quite an entrepreneurial can-do spirit. You know, I started working there when I was at uni, and I was allowed quite a lot of freedom and to do various things really early on. I think if they found people that they liked and they trusted, they gave you quite a lot of responsibility. and I think it was probably part of an entrepreneurial experience and partly certainly thinking about that customer because magazines are obsessed with the reader and the customer and what she wants and also telling her what she may want later that she doesn't know she wants yet. You know, you might want, you don't know you want this yet but here's this trend that's bubbling and we think it's of interest to you because of X, Y, Z.

10:27So I think that I was really honest with Tatler about what I was doing, which was incredible because really they should have just said, well, if you're going to go and do that and I said, I'll never work on it during the day. I'll do it in my evenings and my weekends but you know I would like to to go and do this um and actually now I look at it and think oh that was mad I hadn't raised any money why on earth did I tell them so early on but I did and we had a great relationship about it and it meant that actually all of Condé Nast were really supportive of me when I left and gave us huge amounts of press on Nails Inc um but yeah I think you know one foot in front of the other and you just it's like a shopping list I just went through it and every step of it you know whether it was writing a business plant, raising money, finding a manufacturer, you just like a magazine, you do it in a magazine, you know, you just go off and research it, you go.

11:12So who is the, you know, kind of without the world of dot com, but you know, who's the best nail polish manufacturer in the world who makes nail polish, you're picking up bottles from other brands going, where is this stuff all made? Is it made in Europe? Is it made in America? Where's it all coming from? And slowly you go and find manufacturers, you know, you meet investors through other investors. Yeah, and you just piece it together. I mean, now I look back and think, you know, God, if I was doing this now, you'd have like, you know, AI helping you every step of the way. And before then, Google, we didn't really have that.

11:43You know, it was like dial-up modem time, 1999. Well, ChatGPT could write someone a business plan now. It can build you a, write you a business plan, build you a website, be a fair part of your team as well. Like, it could be your designer. Your first member of staff working for free. It could be an AI agent now. I mean, a hundred. None of that was available for you. No, no. No, and I think in some ways it was much harder then, but then I also think today there's a lot set up against you to actually make money today. I feel like certainly. How do you mean? Well, I'm not even going into the world of politics, but I just feel like it's a lot of reasons why it's hard to make money in the UK at the moment for so many.

12:21It's really hard to make money. I think people I meet that meet a lot of founders and founders looking for investment, and they are often off their plan for the first couple of years. It's hard to get that kind of, you know, tailwind at the beginning. And the costs and the surprises, I think, are intense. I think it's true. And I think, and again, we don't want to make this a political conversation, but it's really important to reward people or even not reward them, important to support people who are going to be the risk takers, the ones who are going to walk away from their jobs, who are going to employ people, who are going to have the vision, who are going to take the risk, who are going to take the chance.

12:58I think if we create an environment where it's too scary to take a shot, I think it is too scary to take a shot at the moment. And I think that's a real shame because you want brilliant entrepreneurs here building businesses, even if half of them fail. The ones that succeed will employ more people. You know, it's almost worth the hit rate of half of them working. It has to fuel an economy. So I think that is a real shame. Let's talk then about the first step for people that might be listening to this. They're in the position that you're in where they've got the idea, they've got the energy, they've got the naivety.

13:32We now know that those things are very important. Yeah. What are the first things that they need to do? I mean, everyone says it, but you have to start, right? You have to stop talking about it and hypothesizing about it and start. I do think there's something really good about the pressure of, I don't know what your internal pressure can be, because you don't need to necessarily set up an office today and have an office. You can do things from your bedroom or your kitchen table. But I do think it's good to have a little wolf at the door that goes, I've got this cost and this pressure. So whether that's, you know, the right time to, you know, leave your job or work, you know, in a more part time or a freelance way to support yourself enough, or whether that's a cost that's hitting you, maybe your first employee, if it's not an office, because you don't necessarily need an office today.

14:19But I think you do need something that makes you go pressure on. I know if I was doing it again, I'd put something into my cost that I wake up every morning and go damn it that's costing whatever making up 10 grand a year I've got to be making I've got to cover this you know I think you need to have some pressure along the way it's an interesting debate that I think because sometimes I feel like saying to people don't have a plan b because it really makes you go for it other times I feel like it's really bad advice to say to people don't have a plan b and you should have something to fall back on there's a there's one on golf academy in the states and I saw an interview with the guy that runs it and And they said, what do you say to the golfers as plan B if they don't make it as professional golfers?

14:59And you said, I tell them there is no plan B. Yeah, there's no plan B. Because having a plan B means they won't give 100 % to making it as a golfer. And you think it's the same in business? I think it's the same. I think if plan B happens, if plan A fails, you'll be damn sure to figure out plan B because you'll be in trouble. So I think for now, focus on plan A. Plan A doesn't have to stay the same. Plan A should be, you should be able to pivot. you should be able to listen to what your customer wants you should be able to read what's happening on the market what's going on with the competition you're going to have to meander through plan a it might not be a straight course but i don't think you should have a plan b i think you have to be all in and all focused on that and i think your team need that i remember in the early days of nail saying when i sort of got the wobbles you know a couple of years in thinking oh you know like you're sort of worried about how you're going to make payroll and you're stressed about you know costs that are coming in and you haven't been paid by your retailers and it's all just like you know a whisper away from kind of going wrong and I remember listening in the in the office and just hearing everybody on the phone whether on the phone to customers or suppliers or they were selling and just thinking they all just believe in me they they are they are all selling this Nails Inc.

16:12Dream so you cannot and I remember thinking that is the last time you're having that doubt in your head like you'll you'll figure it out you'll make it work because by the way people are late paying you so you have to get that money in like so go and get that money in so that you can pay it's fine you're not overextended and I haven't really ever allowed myself to go into that wobble world again where you think what if this all goes wrong I don't sounds like a really significant moment yeah I don't think you I think it's dangerous to sort of go there because it's actually you you can't people can't see from you that you're at all nervous I think that people like a fearless leader that goes we're going to do this and we're going to win and we're going to get this because of this and it's just brilliant you've got to be at least your own PR right let somebody else be the negative PR you've got to be this is the best you know this is the best because of x you know everything we've done we're going to make it the best so for people that have got no knowledge of how to raise investment yeah what would you advise them to do in that instance if they know they've got an idea they know the idea requires some capital how do they even begin so I think you should I think you should try and do as much as you can yourself because in the end, you'll want to own that equity.

17:19So I would say raise as little as possible. If you can self-fund, if you can get a bank loan, if you can use your overdraft, if you can bank a mum and dad, friendly uncle, whatever it is, I think if you can bootstrap it yourself and own that equity because it's better. It's better to also raise money when you've actually got something that has a value, which means you're just giving away less. And then I think in initial, I would focus on not institution investment. I would focus on, you know, not necessarily friends and family, but I would focus on private individuals. I think best it's not too much family and friends.

17:58I think if you are doing family and friends, you need to feel comfortable that they can afford to lose it. I think you need to feel, otherwise I think it's a lot of pressure on you. You know, if you're, I mean, people do it all the time, but, you know, if you're going to send mum and dad bus, I think that's terrifying. So I think you don't want to be at that level of exposure in your own family situation. But I do think every founder has to put proper skin in the game. So whether it's you're remortgaging, you're taking a bank loan out, you're borrowing money. I do think you have to do it yourself.

18:27Why is that? I think you have to put that. If you believe in it, I just wouldn't back a founder that hasn't tried really hard to put their own money in. I just wouldn't. If you and I were sitting here today and you weren't putting your money in, but you wanted someone else to back you, I think you have to put it in. or you have to say I don't have any money to put in because I don't have any money and I don't have anyone that can support me on it and then I would still say raise as little as possible and raise when your business has some value it's a lot of pressure on you and a positive pressure to then get the business to depending on where you're going at least a positive turnover state hopefully to a break-even state or even a profitable state to then raise money it can go wrong that theory by the way if you then grow a business and it's not delivering, the next time you raise money, it will be worse.

19:20You know, like the valuation of your company will be lower. So you have to show that climb up. But yeah, I would try and focus on private individuals. Crowdfunding is really interesting today. It's super interesting. And kind of quite a low stress way to earn, to raise money. And the fact, you know, you haven't got this kind of one heavy investor. You know, you're not losing control. It's a little bit of admin, but I think it's quite a good way. Particularly if you have a brand already. People want to buy into a brand. I think crowdfunding is a really nice way to raise money today. Yeah, depending on the check size, I think it's a really good way to raise money.

19:58And yeah, like you say, if you've already got a brand that showed some social success or you've got some early selling, you know, you've built a brand or consumers, you know, resonate with it because it's in a trending category and they just want a little piece of it, but you don't lose control, you get your money in. I think that's good having a great idea is one thing having a great idea at the right time is arguably more important and I hear so many founders and entrepreneurs and business leaders not talking about luck because I think they feel it takes away from their own success story but actually luck is a vital ingredient in any successful business I think so I think timing, like you say, is just everything you have to have I think you have to be part of a groundswell of something is changing.

20:44I mean, you can obviously just come, you know, out, you know, like you think about things like Dyson products, you know, they just come out from, it's nothing to do with the movement or a trend, right? They're just unbelievable inventions, like innovation to its core. But I think for most businesses, you know, if you think of today, you know, the kind of whole health, wellbeing products, you're in that, you know, huge momentum. You know, if you're launching a supplement brand today, you've already got, you know, an avid audience that is taking multiple supplements, you know, versus even five years ago, right?

21:15It's changed. I do think you need to be in that movement. We were in the movement of women need more, women need more time and can look glamorous at work. Why can't they? Like they don't need to, before then, by the way, it was, you weren't allowed to sort of look glamorous at work. So it's like, you can look glamorous at work and that's okay. In fact, it's better be a female at work. And we were also, you know, kind of time saving. And then we were part of that bring things over from the US. London and the UK were eating up US, you know, ideas. Do you think that we give the UK beauty industry the credit it deserves?

21:49No, I think people sort of still think of it as lipstick and perfume. And it's sort of frivolous rather than the multi-billion industry that it actually is. So no, I think it's always seen as frivolous and the kind of porous is to probably to fashion and tech and some of the other industries, but it's absolutely enormous. And when the business started to do well, you got your timing right and the customers were coming through the door. You'd taken a small amount in investment, but not very much. Was there ever a moment where you had the opportunity at that point to do some kind of an exit, to make a chunk of money and walk away?

22:20Yeah, I did. And we were talking about it before we came on. I was approached by a really well-known retailer at the time. And actually the meeting I had was incredibly patronizing as a meeting. It was an awful meeting, but it doesn't matter because I shouldn't you know I shouldn't I think I probably did have an ego then and I haven't got one at all. Why was it awful? Well it was a very patronizing meeting in terms of like you're you know we'll we'll run this we'll run all the nail polish stuff and you'll just carry on running the nail bars and and I had already long worked out that the profit and the growth in the business was always going to be the polish because you can obviously take that to multiple countries you can really scale it up scaling up salons is like scaling up restaurants you know it takes big teams of people you've got to have the you know the property, the location, investment every time.

23:04So it's not something you can scale very quickly. Whereas product, you can, right? You know, you win Target in America, and they give you a thousand stores, and they've got, you know, 20, 30 SKUs, you can scale. I mean, you can scale overnight, you know, in product, it's really fast. And so it was an incredibly patronizing meeting. And I think I thought because A, it was, I just think I probably had an ego. I just, I had an ego and I also she more than the ego I thought if we're growing like this like now if we're going like a train now imagine what we'll do in two and three years time like it's going to be even bigger and bigger it's too early to exit and I think um I was speaking to another founder actually recently in fashion and she was saying you know we've we missed our exit a couple of years ago so now we've got to reinvent to be ready again and that is the reality if you don't exit when you're really hot you've got to go cool and get hot again and that's a lot of work um so yeah looking back that would have been that was a good deal do you remember what the rough numbers were that investor was talking we we didn't we didn't i i we had a view on it they did some they did some you know some numbers we didn't get that far it was a it was a bad meeting from start to finish so it was a it wasn't a good meeting um and um i had an advisor in that meeting as well he was like you wouldn't want to work with these people.

24:28But actually, what no one really, you know, understands is, you know, you've then got X amount of like sweat equity, you're still going to literally live and breathe this business. And you know, if you're someone like myself, you know, you're all in, all in every day, all day for however long that is. I never hired like, you know, I've got friends that have hired an MD and I always hired strong teams around me but I didn't hire someone to run the business. I always ran the business with lots of support and help from different advisors but I ran the business. And so yeah, that was a nice opportunity that I don't know what life would be like now.

25:10Do you have any regrets over that or not? No, because I don't ever regret anything. I think the other side of it is we were going to be in business together and that was not a good meeting so you don't really want to be in business with people that are probably patronizing to you or your team. So it probably wasn't. I've got very good investors now. The private equity that own us are incredibly respectful, fantastic PE firm and very much let Nails Inc. do Nails Inc. So I think you do need to find good investors, good smart investors that remember why they bought you and they're not trying to change you.

25:41They'll change the things that should be changed, but they'll grow, but they believe in the business. They just want to amplify it, right? those guys maybe wouldn't have done that. So it's one of those things, you could have done it, it could have all gone wrong in a year, you know? Well, look, you could have flown to America for a meeting and the plane could have crashed. I mean, you can't... Who knows, exactly. You can't live a life... I don't, I don't regret anything, do you? I think in business as well, you know, your gut also tells you something. And my gut that day told me to get out of the room.

26:11So I think you have to listen to that. And actually, whenever I've ignored my gut in Nails Inc., it's always been a mistake. and that day it was like, get out of here, this is not the right place for you. I mean, I love the fact that you've remained the CEO of the business for a very long time. And I'm so impressed when I meet founders who also have been the CEO of the business because it's such a different skill to having a great idea and having the energy to get it going. You know, when you say I was all in, I'm really fascinated what that looked like for you. You know, let's go back 10, 15 years.

26:45You said no to an exit. you've then gone to like let's really grow this what would what would your life have looked like in terms of being all in at that point oh all in i mean but all in on everything i think that's the funny thing about entrepreneurs is all in on everything in the business all in everything in family all in everything in your hobbies like i think it's just a personality i mean floor by the way rather than positive which is you're just all in you're just sleep less than other people because you you know you just you can't finish it until it's you know it's it's it needs to be perfect i don't believe in perfect but it needs to be really really great can you explain to us the secret of hiring great people i mean i think hiring people you know i've run my business for a long time so you've made as many hiring successes as fails right i've had lots of failures too i think what i do think about a team that works well at nails inc is i think hiring super smart people whether they've done the exact same role or not is really important i feel like as long as they're super smart they can pivot into a role I don't think I need to you know when you go out looking for the exact person that's done that exact role and but then their personality doesn't fit or their work ethic doesn't fit or you know they don't seem like they're smart enough I think that's challenging I think super smart people can always pivot into the right into the right role and I am a bit of a fan of home growing some talent in Nelsing we've got a lot of people in our office at the moment that are in the leadership team that started off very junior and then they're almost like mini founders.

28:10They really care and they've been through the ranks and they're very good at training up people and they're very good at hiring talent. And it doesn't mean we don't also hire in talent externally. We definitely do. But I would say our best talent is homegrown and they've probably started with us quite a while ago. I think there's also a benefit in that. If you're looking for someone to come in as your COO, for example, what are the odds that you're going to put an advert out? The perfect person is going to see the advert. That perfect person is also going to be in a position to apply for it and be in a position to leave the job they've got.

28:40I think the chances are so infinitesimally small that that's the best way to find a COO. I like the idea of just hoovering people up. You sort of meet people, you spend time with them, you chat to them. Something appears in your life and you think, I know just the person who could come on and do that. I agree. I agree. And I also think sometimes I've met people and I haven't had exactly the right role and I've hired them anyway because you go, you are so good and you're going to add value to my business and you might start over here in product development, but you might move later into marketing, but you've done all of that and you've got that experience and it will work and you're that person, you won't mind being a bit of a chameleon in the business.

29:15So let's bring you on because it would be a shame to lose you. I've brought people on when there hasn't been a clear role. I've created roles for people as well when they're just really smart. Try not to let talent slip. And what was it like sharing a dinner table with another founder, another entrepreneur, your husband? How important was that in your journey? So I think it's, we always laughed about the fact that when one business was doing well, the other one wasn't. Like we always had that kind of, at least someone's putting bread on the table. I always think that when work's going well, home life's a challenge.

29:43It's never the same. We also have had a joke of like, you've had a good year, I've had a terrible year. That definitely went on and off for years. But he, I think you just, I think you know, I think you have a very good understanding how to talk about things together. But I think also in the best possible way, you also know when someone goes, it's been a week, or I'm trying to sort through a problem in my head. I just, like, need time out. I need to watch a movie, go out for dinner and not talk about it. I think you, you know, I think if you're working in a company, I think if my husband had turned around to me and gone, I'm not talking about what's happened at work and he was working for someone else, I'd be a bit like, well, that's just odd.

30:18And then, but when it's your own business and you go, I'm just working something out, I'm going to tell you about it in a couple of weeks, it is a problem. It's fine, but it's a problem, but I'm going to sort it out. You know, someone that's great in your team that's leaving, you know it's been headhunted and you're gutted you know it feels emotional like you're really you can't you don't want to say it out loud yet like you're hurt because you had great plans together and you feel emotional and hurt or you're trying to solve it and you know retain this person in the business and throw the book at them I think sometimes you just need a little bit of time before you want to voice it but generally I think you've got a great understanding of it and I think that with other founders I'm now part of all I was I'm like the least networker in the world because I was so head down in my business and when I started my business a couple years later I obviously had children and young children for a long time and three kids and busy life and everything going on and lots of travel with work so I was never a networker but in the last few years I've joined various different you know kind of groups and met lots of other founders really I should have met them years ago I knew a few but I've met a lot more recently and it's amazing how quickly you align and go that and it's like even the worst thing that you say about the business people be like I can top that and I had a day when this happened I mean you have all the same war stories it's you know it's like when you sit with another mum and you talk about your kids it just makes it just normalizes everything and I do when I chat to them now I think I should have done this years ago because this would have taken a lot of the worries in your head that you kept only to yourself and didn't share with anyone if you felt confident in this group you could do it but I was always kind of rushing home for bath time so I didn't ever go what is the war story in your business journey that you thought was pretty much unique to you no one else has had it this tough and now and you realise maybe people do.

32:00It was a fairly bad moment. We had a fire in Topshop. That was not great. That was a not good day. So I was visiting all the stores. We had multiple stores around Oxford Street. We were basically in every department store in Oxford Street. And, you know, that's kind of like proud. You know, it was Saturday morning and I was like, going to go to House of Fraser and then Debenhams and then Selfridges and then Fenix. Just looking for how they were displaying your products. Yeah, we had nail bars. It was all the teams. I was just going in on Saturday. I regularly would just pop in on Saturday. They just kind of see the teams.

32:29Because otherwise, your head office is always the guys that visit Monday to Friday, right? But, you know, nail bars are open Saturdays and Sundays. So I'd regularly try and do, like, you know, kind of stall walks and go and visit everyone on Saturday and Sunday. And I arrived at Topshop. And everyone was coming out of Oxford. You know how busy Oxford Circus. They were all coming out the other direction. They were coming out towards me. And I asked someone, I was like, what's happened? And they said, oh, there's a fire in Topshop. And I was like, oh, right. And I still continued to walk in the direction of Topshop because I was going to see them.

32:59So I was like, it's fine. And then I got closer to Oxford Street and I said, oh, you know, when will the store be reopening? And they said, oh, no, it'll definitely be closed for the day because there's been a fire in the lower ground floor. And I was like, oh, I've got a nail bar in there. And then somebody else went, yeah, it was the nail bar that's on fire. You know, we used to have the sort of the catering sinks. So you had like a kind of pump system, you know, like you do for sort of a wedding or a party. and, you know, it had exploded, but there was a sprinkler right above it, so the sprinkler had gone on.

33:29The problem was the team that were in Topshop that day didn't have to turn off the sprinklers. So that's why there was just, that's why everyone was out. There was a huge amount of stock damage and in my mind I was calculating what that stock damage looked like and what that would mean. Thinking it was coming back on you. Thinking it was coming back on me and that obviously I wouldn't have the insurance that would cover that. Did they ever try and come for you for the money? Well, it was really, no, they didn't. I think because very clearly, very early on, the fire officers said straight away in a meeting with us and Topshop, I just want to say that the danger of this situation wasn't the fire.

34:03The fire was solved in one second. The danger of the situation was the sprinklers weren't turned off. And actually, if you don't know how to turn them off, you don't know how to turn them on. And obviously, everyone needs fire training. So that was the situation at the time. But I had, I mean, that was, I guess that was the sort of, I mean, you know, kind of comical one when you look back, you just go, well, that's just ridiculous that we like shut down. You remember how busy that store was, you know, that Ox's Circus, there was no store like it. Ox's Circus Topshop was probably the most important store in London, wasn't it?

34:30I mean, I, I'd been to see Selfridges, you know, Selfridges House of Fraser and Debenhams, and it was Topshop that like gave me the fear. But lots of those, you know, like raising money, I think, you know, early on is very intense. You know, products when, you know, things are late, and you're late to a customer or, you know, a retailer, things go wrong. You know, there's tons where you think we won't survive it, but you do. And that's, I think, the important thing is to share for people is that when you create a business and you have this brilliant idea for these nail bars, that doesn't teach you how to have a conversation with Topshop about a sprinkler's damaging their stock.

35:07It doesn't teach you how to go in and meet a potential investor and talk about whether they're an investor in your business. It doesn't teach you how to hire great people. It doesn't teach you actually how to fire not great people. Correct. And so much of this has to be learned along the way. You have to kind of have this mindset, I think, of this is just happening to me. It's not a bad thing. It's not a negative. It's just what's happening and I'm going to learn to deal with what's in front of me. I think as long as you've got, you know, I do think in business morals are really important. I think, you know, having your moral compass, you know, I looked at that that day and went, okay so once I'd calmed down I was like okay we have the best possible equipment and setup you know you can't fix things sometimes that are out of your control but I do think if you have integrity and you I've always been a big apologizer I apologized that day for Topshop I'm sure that fire officer looked at me and went you shouldn't apologize and I apologized I went I'm really sorry this has happened in your store this is terrible I am glad the fire went out in 30 seconds I didn't fail to say that but I went I'm really sorry this is your store because I do think the I would always pick up the phone and apologize and I feel like you know apologizing communicating with people and just being honest and saying this has never happened to me before so I'm learning about this and I'm going to make sure we do a great job for you next time or how can I compensate you I'm also a big fan when we've done anything wrong at Nails Inc whether it's to a direct customer you know your order comes late and it was for your sister's birthday no problem we're going to send you that prep that and we're going to send you a huge product I've sent us to people when they're upset about it I'm like tell me what you want tell me what products you would like from Nails Inc they can tell me they want three products I'm like take it like we'll send it to you I just think apologizing and having that moral compass to have the empathy and to say I'm learning too and we messed up I hate it when you get customer service and they pretend that they did a great job when they completely screwed up like I feel like saying we really messed up here and we're going to fix this for you goes a long way so I'm a big fan of saying it's our fault and I say it to all the team as well like it's our fault we screwed up like just say it like tell them we made we made a mistake apologize and move on I feel like it goes a long way people then so also you can't really shout or argue with someone that's actually going we were wrong we were wrong you were right so now let's like move on and fix it I feel like it just sort of cuts through it quite quickly and simmers everything down I think it's a brilliant leadership lesson and I I love kind of plotting through with you the journey that you've been on at Nails Inc obviously you said no to that money early on there's a chance that if you had just time again you might say yes but the good news is you did say yes to some money not too long ago people can find the figure online tens of millions of dollars you you sold nails inc for i know that you remain with the business because for people that don't know if you do an exit as the as the founder of the business they want you to carry on working there as an earn out so you'll have targets to hit numbers to hit as long as you hit those the money will eventually be yours but it is a very different emotion when you've described your business as your baby and then you have to walk into Nails Inc one Monday morning and you no longer own the baby.

38:10Yeah. How was that? So I think initially it felt really alien. It feels really odd early on. And you're not quite sure what the new rules are. You know, I think you're always waiting to sort of go, because people have bought your business because they want you to carry on doing what you're doing, but you're not always sure where the parameters are. And I think that took a while to navigate in terms of, so, you know, you want me to carry on running all of these things, but not this maybe, you know, like understanding your role going forward. Because actually everybody else in my team, their roles didn't really change.

38:42It was only really mine. So I think you are trying to navigate that. And you've still got all of your team looking at you for the answer and the leadership. And actually, the worst thing to say to them is, I can't decide this. And I tried to never go, I can't decide, I can't tell you this. I just tried to always go and get the answer from the new owners, the PE, so that I could come back and go, right, this is the decision, rather than I don't know, which I just think is, like I said, I just don't think you want to hear that from your leader. I don't know. And, you know, we're not sure and we're confused about our strategy.

39:10It's like disaster. So it is really odd. There are huge benefits. So the huge benefits of what we've done is we've got, you know, private equity behind us, we've got capital behind us, we're doing everything we want to do in terms of growing the business, we are growing the business. We are really improving in terms of like market share, market awareness, we are very focused on North America, which is where the fund is based. And so that is all hugely positive because you're watching your baby, you know, go on and do exactly what you want it to do. And we needed external investment to do that.

39:42Like letting your kid go to university. It's exactly like letting your kid go to university. Very, very, very right analogy because it is having that. I'm going to watch over you. And what I was saying to you before, the PE firm truly are great. They want me to red flag concerns. So they have very much, you know, said to me, tell us when something doesn't feel right, when you think something's going to go wrong, they're very open to it. And I think that's really helpful that you can say, guys, there's going to be a problem over here if we carry on doing this. But the nature of, you know, being part of a more corporate organisation is it is slower than it was in the way that it runs.

40:19I'm not very good at that. I like doing things like yesterday so i find the pace harder um i try to get everybody onto my pace i've had some great success there in the last two years because we've obviously been working together for nearly two years now how would you describe your pace my pace is fast my face pace is not for the faint-hearted my pace is really quick i just really decisive and very quick i mean i you know sometimes i'll also turn around and say i don't think we should do anything yet because we don't know the answer so sometimes my decision is i don't want to make it i'll be i'll be honest about it and go i don't want to make a decision because we need to see this data this information we need to look about what happens goes over here we're waiting for feedback on that so we can't make a decision but you'll know i'll at least say to you we're not making a decision on this for another three months so like there's no point in talking about it for now but there's a that in itself is a decision we're not talking about this for a few months let's focus on core business are you also patient yeah yeah i'm well sorry i'm patient in terms of i don't know i'm patient i'm not patient with myself I want to go really quickly I think I've learned to be very patient with my team because I've become more like a maternal mum figure in Nielsen you know I mean they literally they used to call myself my CFO mum and dad I mean it's hilarious I mean when I first started my business I was like the young person in the office you know I was in my early 20s and I employed people that were much more mature than me and then I suddenly became I didn't even know but we were apparently on holiday at the same time once not together but at the same time and they were like mum and dad are both out of the office and someone let it slip and I was like Who's mum and dad?

41:44It's actually depressing that, isn't it, when you get that? I had no idea. I mean, you just think you're younger than you are. Well, I think I'm the same age as all the girls in my office, and they're on their 20s. I've got this personal trainer, right, and at the end of the day he goes to me, do you know what, can I just say? I thought he'd say, like, we're great mates. He went, you are like a father figure to me. I thought, bloody hell. It's so upsetting. The girls in my office regularly say to me now, they're like, you know, my mum would say, my mum's like that, yeah. I think, why are you talking about your mum?

42:07We're the same, we're peers. You have to remember, I'm 20 years older than everyone else. I'm 100%. And it creeps up on you. I used to be the young guy on TV. I was the young person, always. So it's a bit of a surprise, right? Because I was always the kid in the business, and now suddenly I'm. How old do you feel? I don't know, actually. I don't feel. I mean, I'm 49. I feel about 22. 22, 23. Yeah, I think I probably feel 30. Yeah. You're more truer than me. I think I probably feel about 30. I definitely don't feel like I'm about to turn 50. that seems ridiculous no way only because I remember my mum turning 50 so I think well I can't be turning 50 because that was like my mum's age but this is why I love this conversation because this is how quick it goes yeah and if two old people like us can sit here and sit like you remember your grandparents going oh life goes by ever so fast it's so quickly you think shut up grandma what are you talking about so quickly which is why and then you're now in this position which is why if you want to set up a business you've got to just start you've just got to go because it won't with all the planning in the world it won't go according to plan and things will go wrong you've just got to start.

43:09And is there a risk with brands like Rare Beauty for example where Selena Gomez is the face of that brand is there a risk with these personality led brands? So textbook wise there's a there's a risk right textbook wise they do something you know awful in PR something goes wrong and the brand's destroyed but the reality is some of these brands have been going for you know Fenty Beauty, Rare Beauty, Road Beauty you know they're you know a few years in, they're doing a great job. They will have, I mean, I didn't dig around them all, they'll all have an operational arm, a manufacturing arm, they'll have some people, you know, doing some of the operational know how and do.

43:50Those brands have all launched beautiful brands and beautiful products. And actually, today, when you think about how expensive it is to have influencers in your business, you start a business and you are an influencer, and your marketing is taken care of, you know, you know, Hayley Bieber is taking care of her marketing right it's hayley beaver you know you can't afford hayley beaver to market your product so something quite amazing about that and i think if they stay true i feel like some of those brands have really done a good job of really honing in on who that audience is you know back to the customer they are very very focused on that on that customer they've all got a very very clear path i think they're really strong i mean look you know road saw to elf recently you know it's hugely successful deal no i think they're exciting they should be textbook they should textbook, they should have a challenge because you get in bed with a celebrity, something goes wrong, da-da-da.

44:39I think they're doing a great job. I admire them all. And I think it's interesting from the creator side as well that for a long time, if you were well known, you might make a few quid by promoting someone else's business. How exciting that now, instead of promoting someone else's business and guaranteeing yourself a hundred grand, you take a chance, you might make nothing. Well, you might make a hundred million. You might make a hundred million, but you create your own brand. Exactly. So with that in mind, what would you say to your son or my daughter who've got entrepreneurial desires? The way the world looks now, what would be your advice to them?

45:14Well, I would definitely say what we said before, which is, you know, you need to get started. I do think you need to be in a field that, like you say, is like your hobby that you're so excited about, whether it's beauty or it's makeup or it's health and well-being or it's accountancy. I just think you need to be doing something that you absolutely need to. And is it a personal brand? As a personal brand? Does it start as a personal brand every time now, do you think? No, I don't think it has to. Yeah. I don't think it has to. I think that's one really good route. And we've talked about some great examples of that, but it doesn't need to start that way.

45:44It can also start with an amazing mission and a great community and a collective of people. It doesn't have to start with one. If you don't want to be, I don't think if you want to be a founder, you have to be a social media star. It's one route. It's a great route, but it's not. And also, if you do that route, you've got to commit to it for a very long time. And sometimes there's a challenge in terms of you come to exit that business and it's so wedded to you. Is that a challenge? You have to probably stay on as an ambassador, not necessarily a bad gig. But yeah, I think there's multiple routes of how you do it.

46:14I think you just have to be authentic and do something that really works. And I think, as I said to you before, that compass for me has always been the consumer. You just focus, focus, focus on the customer. And then the noise goes away, all the other conversations go away. You don't get distracted if you just keep thinking about the customer. You know, when you were first starting out, to find a gap, you'd have to look at the world. We both know the reality is now you can ask AI to tell you whether there are any gaps left in business. Well, kind of nice, but also everyone else will be asking the same question and the gaps will fill fast.

46:45So how important is it still to find a business that does fill a gap? And how should people go about working out what are the gaps, what are the questions to ask ourselves? I think you can do it two ways. You can either genuinely find a gap, like we were just talking about, you know, Whoop, and I was talking about the Oura Ring, that you can generally, you know, find a gap, which is, you're on a trend, aren't you? People are focused on wellness, longevity, sleep, self-improvement. So you're on a trend, you know, that's back to the, you're riding the wave of what's culturally happening. I do think cultural relevance and like a cultural trend is really important.

47:20So I think you can do it that way and like, you know, focus on like that growth area. but I also don't think there's anything wrong with I know a lot of businesses that have just taken something and made it better if you just think about the deodorant brands like recently these deodorant brands who've taken deodorant which has been in the same format for years and they've made it eco, natural better looking packaging more sustainable nicer to hold, fit in your bag longer lasting same with the toothbrushes look at all the trendy toothbrush brands like Suri and I forget the name of the Swiss one, Curapox, that have come in and just challenged Philips and Oral-B and those brands.

48:04So I do think you can also, you can either take a product and go, this is a consumable, how do I make it more luxury, more innovative, more eco, more desirable, more visually appealing, or I think you can go and try and find the gap, the little space. and I think that there's just, there's always a gap, isn't there? There's always a gap. Because the world changes also. The world changes, there's always a gap. Yeah. But I do think following a sort of social movement at any one time is exciting. In a world that is increasingly dominated by AI, how do we retain that human connection, which was so crucial to your business at the beginning?

48:45I think you train AI to be human, don't you? That's the aim, right? You train AI to answer in the brand voice and to manage customers, whether it's the end consumer or your retail customers, in the way that the brand. So I think you have to set parameters. But you train AI, don't you? Like AI, you know, my understanding of AI, and we're all learning, is it's a tool that you teach and train. And the more you put into it, the more you get out of it. It's not Google, right? It's not that. It's not a search and find something. You teach it. You bring it along. you mentor it to become a mini you. And I think that's the amazing benefit.

49:23So I think you can allow it to still have a great touch and just respond to people faster and all the efficiencies of AI, but still have that appeal. And there's no part of you that thinks once I've gone through my urn out, I can go and lay on a beach and just chill. You think you may go again? Yeah, I just think, I think it will keep me young. I think doing another business will keep me young. But I'm always going to support and help Nails Inc. You know, I would never be in competition with Nails Inc in any shape or form. Would never do anything that was going to compete with Nails Inc. I'd support them forever and a day.

49:56And then, yeah, something else, something new, a new challenge. Yeah, definitely. I think it's quite addictive. It's very addictive. Thank you so much. I love that. Really lovely. Thank you so much. Look, I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Thea as much as I did. You know, I've only realised actually in the last few years how hard it is to do what she's done. because for a long time I thought, well, it's pretty easy to come up with an idea for a business, run the business, sell the business. But you imagine, you have the idea. You then have to make the idea a reality. You then have to make the reality make money for a long time until there's a moment where you're going to have an exit.

50:28And finally, after years of stress and turmoil and anxiety, you get an exit and you get the money in your bank. It's so incredibly rare. Yep, Thea's done it. And for her to sit here and share, as she said, I will tell you everything. I will tell you everything. For her to sit and share the intricate details of what's happened on that journey, I think so valuable for me and for you as well, hopefully. And I think the overriding message I got from her was one of optimism. Like, I love it when someone who's a similar age to me in their late 40s says, I love these amazing new brands coming through.

50:57I'm inspired by people who are turning their YouTube presence into the latest beauty launch. And it would be so easy, I think, for theatre to kind of be derailed by those people, to go, well, how dare they try and take some of the pie that we have at Nails Inc.? But she's not like that at all. She's all about everyone else getting a great opportunity. I think the other big lessons and the learnings from her is that there will always be moments that you might have made a different decision in hindsight, but you can't make the decision at the time. So when she said no to taking that investment, only with hindsight can she think she might have made a different decision, but hindsight is an exact science.

51:33All she was able to do in that moment was use the information in front of her to make a decision. But I think the other big message really from Thea, and she must have said it five or six times in the interview. You just have to start. So if you've been sitting on an idea and you've been thinking, I don't dare do it, hopefully that was the conversation that might inspire you to do it. And Thea doesn't believe you need a plan B. Maybe for a short amount of time you shouldn't have a plan B. But I think the message from Thea is clear. You have to give it a go. You have to start because there's nothing worse than getting to the end of your life and just not knowing.

52:03Thanks very much for watching.

52:10Thank you.