How Five Guys Franchised The UK & Europe

0:00Think about these brothers. They had opened their first store in 1986. Between 1986 and 2002 they had opened up five stores. Everything is done by hand, fresh, on the site, on the day. Five Guys has changed everything. Don't ever take your eye off burgers and fries. If you do that right, so many things will fall in line.

0:21I guess the first thing to say, you know, Five Guys is a family-owned business, right? I mean, there actually are five guys. And it was found, you know, the mom and dad founded it with these five boys. So there are actually seven of them. But, you know, they all show up every Tuesday for a family meeting. And that's kind of how the business is run. Every family business is going to be very different and reflect the temperament and the values of the founding family. So it's not at all corporate, right? I mean, there's not, you know, business suits and, you know, lawyers everywhere. I mean, this is a family.

1:03That dynamic is present in the room. So you can imagine a bunch of brothers, you know, ranging in a wide range of ages who, you know, they grew up fighting and, you know, building the business. Some of them grew up, you know, with the business as part of their upbringing. That kind of very direct way of doing business is definitely part of the five guys' temperament. And when you have a family dynamic, it's really different and that, you know, things get, you know, really actively. I mean, in some ways, you'd have to say decision making is actually better because it's really tested by disagreements amongst equals who have very different perspectives.

1:53Charles and I, I think, actually formed a really powerful combination. I think the combination of those two really gave the Morels a higher level of comfort. They were actually talking with another family about bringing the business to the UK. And they were like, no, actually, I think Charles and John are the right guys to go with. So you and Charles arrived. You flew in. Yeah. Do you remember kind of the moments before that meeting when you're waiting outside to be called in? What was going on? Yeah. So I remember riding up in the elevator and, you know, we'd fresh off the plane from Heathrow.

2:28We'd landed in Dulles and just outside Washington, D.C. And, you know, D.C. is a city that's built to intimidate. Right. It's built by this French guy, you know, to intimidate everybody. So it is. I mean, you know, these long boulevards and amazing buildings that are, you know, imposing and you're driving by, you know, all these institutions of American power and wealth. and then you arrive at Five Guys, rode up in the elevator and I can remember kind of looking at each other going, we have no idea what's gonna come next. I mean, you've put so much thought and work and aspiration and energy into creating that opportunity to be in the room with the Morels and that's an accomplishment in and of itself, right?

3:20I mean, that's not easy to be in a room where the future of a brand who's thinking about going global, just being in the room is an accomplishment just full stop. But going actually – and it's a family. I mean, they haven't given a tell, right? There's no read – hasn't been on a quarterly earnings call that maybe they're going to do a deal. So you really had no idea at this point. Had no idea where it was going. Interested, not interested, mildly interested. No, and actually some of the execs who give you some way to access the family's thinking process have actually managed your expectations to that, to go, actually, we don't know where the family's going.

4:11There's lots of good arguments on both sides of the table. There are some people who are kind of thinking that it's a good idea, some people who are a bit skeptical. cool. So, you know, good luck, you know? And, and so, you know, you, you kind of walk in there without any, you know, there's, there's no way that we could have known which way it was going to go. So it was fully, fully, you know, all the options were, you know, were on the table. Do you remember the last thing you said to Charles or he said to you before you walked in? It was kind of a look. It's kind of, you know, kind of an eye contact of like, you know, here we go.

4:43You know, we've done everything we can. And I mean, you know, actually, you know, we could have backed away from the principles that we thought were key to the deal. And I think that's one of the great things about the way that Charles and I happened to work in that scenario. It was like, we really believe that what we had agreed was the right way to approach the deal. And because we think, and actually just before this, Charles, we knew that Five Guys was a great concept. We liked it. I was familiar with it having been in America, but Charles had never had the product before. So actually there was a moment where he had flown to New York and gone to eat at a Five Guys and was like, and like taking a bite of a burger and the fries.

5:27It was like, we need to do this deal. You don't really, when you walk into a corporate meeting, there's kind of a range of expectations, right? You know, I mean, there's going to be some Harvard business people. There'd be some, you know, some really smart lawyers and you kind of know some McKinsey consultant-type people. And the range of discussion is really probably well-defined. With the family, you have no idea what's important to them. What is it that they're going to make a decision on? And of course, ultimately, that kind of connection that they have with the business people is going to disproportionately play a role in the decision, you would think, going into it.

6:10And I think that was really right. And what I think the Morels experienced and wanted to experience was that entrepreneurial thread. And obviously, the Morels built this business from scratch as a family. So I think that connection of entrepreneurship was what really drove the meeting in the right direction. But I will tell you, for most of the meeting, I had no idea how we were doing. right so you know so we walk in there we shake hands we sit down and like the family just like starts talking amongst themselves like about us like in front of us saying what sort of thing you know i don't you know who are these guys you know these really the right guys they want to do this joint venture we want to franchise is that the right deal why do we want you know why do they want to do and you're sitting in the room we're sitting there and charles and i're just like sitting here like going you know let's should we say something or maybe just let them run with it for a while.

7:06And at that moment, I thought we might have lost, you know, we might have lost the family. And, you know, that might have been, you know, the end of the conversation. And there actually were, you know, powerful voices in the room of like, you know, we don't want to do this. You know, this is not our, the way we do business. And, you know, these two, you know, seem like really two good people, you know, good, good businessmen. But, you know, that's just not, you know, the right structure for us. So when the family were having this debate, were you sort of tempted to chime in if you disagreed with things they were saying or anything that's such a that's such a great you know uh you know a great judgment you know what's what's the right you know do you you know is the right thing to argue you know do you do you like uh refute the the points um you know and uh and actually you know charles and i both i think there were moments where we both leaned in to kind of give the counterargument.

8:03And just as we were, another family member kind of came in and made exactly the right point. So the family was getting there. And actually, I think if we had interrupted the process, it probably would have been bad chemistry. so you know knowing how to let them run with their thought decision making process i think was actually essential to to making it happen so it was it was tough you're kind of holding back holding back going i know the perfect argument i actually have all the words i have the phrases perfectly set and just let them make the you know make the argument themselves and i think that was really important no i think that self-control needs to be applauded because you know what you want to say and to kind of let it go takes it it does take a bravery not to dive in at that moment yeah yeah no but i mean i i think i think we sensed that this was how the family dynamic business let them play it out yeah the future of five guys the future of charles dunson and the future of you is being discussed and you're strong enough to say nothing i think that takes quite a it's quite a lot of willpower yeah well i mean obviously more so for you know um you know charles has lots of other investments and he's successful in many other ways.

9:19For me, it probably was a lot more riding on it. Really? Well, I mean, I just, in terms of what's going to make a difference to my career, Five Guys has changed everything. Did you allow yourself to think about that in that moment or not? Yeah, I think that would definitely cloud your judgment to try and you know allow you know thinking about all the dominoes that fall um you know if if it wins or doesn't it's you know there'll be time to count the count the the you know the wins later um but let it play out as it should but then you know jerry the dad um it was kind of kind of felt quiet after they've been discussing kind of fighting um about you know what was the right thing to do jerry says you know i really think that we should we should really look look hard at this.

10:10I really think this might be the right way to go. And it was like the temperature changed in the room. And suddenly the kind of reasons to do the deal and to engage with Charles and me and to think about why it would work, maybe even better than a franchise. On the actual day of the meeting then, did you actually need to say very much? At that point, I think we leaned on a couple of points and then got up and shook hands. So it's done. So it's the moment where you go, so do we have a deal? Or does someone ask that question? Exactly. So we're agreed then. So basically it's like say a couple things, stand up and say, great, so we're doing this together.

10:50Let me shake your hand. And I mean at that point, I think that that's one of the things is how do you read when someone's ready to close? And you don't need to oversell at that point. You know, if someone's given you that buying indication, then at that point, I think, you know, Charles and I was like, they want to do the deal. Let's get up, shake hands and say, thank you very much. We really look forward to being great partners. You know, I love this conversation because you've got to remember that Five Guys is not your average corporation. It's still like, well, it's still a family business, just a very big one.

11:27and the Morels get in a room every Tuesday and hash out business decisions just like a family do. And the foundations of the entire company may have been built around a kitchen table, but years later, very little has changed. I mean, obviously the room has changed. It's now an imposing boardroom in the heart of America rather than a family kitchen. And that's why I think this is special because I love the belief shown by two insiders to just stroll in and try and explain to the owners of the business how they planned to sink a vast amount of money into a single restaurant in central London. But if it paid off, it would take Five Guys to a whole new level.

12:05No longer an American company, but a global one. And I guess you'd think it would take mountains of guile and all the right connections to try and get a meeting at the very top of a business like Five Guys. Well, that's not the case. This might surprise you actually, because all it really took was a moment of inspiration and filling out a standard online form. So tell us the story behind the decision to go with Five Guys. Yeah, so Charles and I were talking about, you know, what direction we could move in. And the cover of Bloomberg Magazine had Jerry Murrell eating a Five Guys saying the fastest growing food and beverage brand.

12:43And we were like, that's got to be worth a try. And so that was where we, you know, where I, so then it fell to me. I mean, you know, great flash of aspirational brilliance. But then you have to figure out how do you make that happen, right? I mean, that's, you know, they're a family business on the other side of the Atlantic. You know, they have no idea who we are. So how do you actually go about making that connection work and doing a deal with them? And that was the next step in the journey. What was it then about the article that made you sit up and take notice? Well, obviously, America is famous for burgers and fries.

13:22And I always thought that you should give preference to something that a country is famous for. If I were a Frenchman, I would go for crepes or cheese or champagne or perfume or something like that, something they're famous for. And you'll sell that La Catane all around the world or whatever. It was uniquely French. But burgers and fries are quintessentially an American thing. So if you are setting America on fire with being the best burgers and fries, that's something really special, right? I mean, the country's famous for it, and you're winning in that category, in that segment. That's got to play.

14:06And then, of course, McDonald's has done such a great job of proving around the world that everybody loves a burger. and you could serve this product literally around the world. So between those two things, you're like, this looks like a really plum opportunity. So how do you go from seeing Jerry Murrell on the front cover of Bloomberg Magazine to actually getting in front of him? Yeah, very, very boring. Kind of like very, you know, just open your laptop, pull up the website type in I want to you know build a business in the UK you know will you take my meeting on their like form on their website you did like um you kind of approach them in a really like simple way just any member of the public could do just a cold uh cold approach why did you do that rather than speak to some of your great contacts to see if they knew someone who knew someone gosh you know sometimes the direct way is just you know the simplest um And, you know, I mean, look, I'm sure that if it hadn't worked, we would have, you know, used, you know, whatever banking connections that you could find.

15:17But, you know, sometimes the best way is just walk in the door and ask, you know, ask for the opportunity. And what was the instant response to the filling in of the online Five Guys form? Nothing, nothing. No. So, I mean, you know, I did then, you know, chase. So you heard nothing back from that? Heard nothing back. So, you know, chase, you have to chase. What did you type on the form? Do you remember what you said? Yeah, I think I said, you know, like, you know, I work with Charles Dunstan. You know, he's a pretty accomplished European, you know, British entrepreneur. And, you know, we've been kind of chatting and saw the article.

15:52And, you know, we'd love to look at bringing your brand to the UK. And silence. Silence. It's like, oh, no. But, you know, I mean, I think, you know, the food and beverage business and most businesses is very human. So, you know, there are human beings who are behind these, you know, channels of communication. So I was like, there's a human being who's responsible for looking at, you know, how to expand the brand. So I'm going to find that human being. So how did you do that? I just started, I found any number that I, you know, like Google, you know, phone number for, you know, five guys, you know, headquarters and, you know, calling up saying, you know, who can I talk to about, you know, global expansion franchise?

16:36opportunities. And so eventually, and actually Mark Mosley's daughter was answered the phone. And I was like, you know, she's like, oh, my dad's responsible for that. I was like, well, can I talk with him? I was like, yeah, okay, here he is. Brilliant. And that's what led to that first meeting? That's what led to the first meeting. You know, it's interesting. This Mark Mosley guy was a former Washington Redskins Super Bowl champion, a very good football player. So, you know, I kind of like recognized his name and, you know, it was like talking to a Super Bowl MVP on the phone. And he was responsible for vetting prospective partners for the family.

17:14And so, you know, told him the story and said, look, I'm going to be there. Can we meet up? And I'm coming through D.C. and yeah, would the family take a meeting? And he said, I don't know, let me see. And so they said, actually, yeah, the family meets next Tuesday, you know, if you're still in DC, you know, come on by. Wow. So just explain then the difference between a JV joint venture and a franchise. Yeah. So most brands that are looking to expand around the world would sell a franchise, maybe a master franchise for a whole country. And they would say, you know, you have development rights for the UK and we think you're going to build a couple hundred stores over 10 years, and you're going to pay 8 % of sales and royalties back to us, but you're going to own the whole business.

18:08It's your business. You build it. You own all of it. It's 100 % yours. And if it's successful, it could be amazing. And if it's not, then maybe it won't be, but you'll have paid us 8 % all along the way. And so it ends up being a very, collaborative, but it's an arm's length business deal. And if you build stores that have a lot of sales, but not much profit versus stores that are quite profitable, the brand is equally benefits. So you as the franchisee can have a range of success, some being great, some being not so much. So we wanted to have a joint venture where the parties equally owned the business and there wasn't a preferred royalty payment back to the brand.

19:05All the profits of the business would stay in the business and be dedicated to the expansion and growth of this particular opportunity. So there was definite personal risk for you going again with Five Guys. Do you remember the emotion you felt when you realized, hold on, this is going to happen? You know, I think this is a personal trait of mine that I'm really terrible at celebrating victories. I mean, you know, which, I mean. Not uncommon. I'm sure my team hates me for that. It's like something amazing happens. Like we should all go like go out and celebrate, you know, and we do. I've gotten a bit better at it.

19:44But, I mean, my brain just immediately flipped to, holy shit, do you know how much we have to do now? I mean, it's like, you know, we have definitely, this, we're the dog that caught the, you know, caught the car. And, you know, we have got so much, you know, we've got to hire the team. We've got to get the property right. We've got to, you know, get the supply chain. So my brain, like, immediately went into kind of execution mode, which, you know, that's, I guess that's one of the, yeah. I mean, I guess sometimes your strengths are also your weaknesses, but I think that was the immediate. Well, I think we walked out and we definitely were like, we just got that deal, didn't we?

20:20Yeah, we definitely did. So there was definitely a sense of that was worth it. We did it right. But it was a risk. The whole JV strategy was a risk because it was so different. But it was a real risk to ever doing the deal. And, you know, sticking with it felt like high stakes. And so, you know, having it work was definitely, you know, a moment of relief and of satisfaction. Surely you went and had a drink or a meal somewhere. There has to be a moment of celebration. Absolutely. No, we did. We certainly did. But we also had to get on a plane and get back, too. So, no, it was definitely a high moment.

21:14I mean, business does have adrenaline rushes just like sport does. And that was certainly one of the moments. And, you know, it's interesting that the anxiety is always part of the euphoria, right? So, you know, the kind of success is fueled by what's at stake and whether you're going to actually walk out with the prize or not. And away from Charles and away from the Morell family, how big was the risk for you if this hadn't gone well? You know, it was a real inflection point for me, Jake, because I had been like a banker. Most of my life I had been, you know, a suit and tie, you know, transactional mergers and acquisition type banker.

21:58I'd done high-yield bonds. So, I mean, I was very used to transactional life, and I'd never really been involved in the operational side of the business. So this was kind of the fulcrum of my professional life, where I flipped from being that transaction deal guy to being a food and beverage exec. So the family and Charles asked me to step in and run the business after we had formed the joint venture. So, you know, I'm a fully qualified, you know, black shirt and a five guys. I can make your burgers and fries. Make your kids their burgers and fries next time they come in. Worked in one of the busiest hours we've ever done doing top bun dressings at Oxford Circus just around the corner here.

22:40But then building a team. I mean, this is something that I think is really different from banking to food and beverage. Just how, I mean, banking, there's a lot of prima donna pirouetting. You know, look at me. I'm the most important thing here. And in food and beverage, it's all about your team. You know, how can you get people with diverse talents and capabilities to throw their talent on the table and shake it up and go, now, that's more than any of us could have done on our own. And that's just so satisfying. You know, there's no deal closing that can compare to having, you know, an exec team that's worked together and achieved, you know, building a brand like Five Guys in Europe.

23:28I mean, that's so special to get together with your general managers who run the store. We get together every year and have a celebration. We have a celebration of, you know, what was great in the past year. And we honor all the awards and achievements and records that have been broken. And, you know, that is just a better high than any deal closing that you could do as an individual. Well, let's talk then about how you got to this point. So you walk out of the meeting, you've done the deal. Yeah. Great relief, a moment of celebration. But then, of course, you have to actually create the five guys, brand, restaurants, staffing levels.

24:12the whole thing has to be created from zero, not just in the UK, but now across the whole of Europe. Where on earth do you begin? Yeah, well, it always starts with the people. So we interviewed and found Julie Spear, who was a Five Guys operator in the US, and convinced her to come abroad. She still lives here, by far the most important person in the business. And, you know, so many businesses you see where people get carried away with, you know, the glamour of the job, being able to be here on a podcast with Eugene, you know, whatever it is that's glamorous about it. And like, no, no, no, we're burgers and fries.

24:48You know, don't ever forget that it's, you know, some that's, and it's the hardest job in food and beverage. I mean, it is really, it's very physical. I mean, you know, everything is done by hand, fresh, on the site, on the day, you know, and standing in front of a hot grill, hot fryers, and shaken fries, that's the hardest, hardest job of all. I mean, it's in 25 kilo bags of potatoes get carried back and hand cut, washed, and, you know, speed is, speed matters. And so, I mean, it's a really physical job. So it's really important that the people who are actually doing what really matters, making a burger for a customer, making sure they get your kids' burgers right, they know that all of us understand and celebrate and honor what the business is and that we don't have some other conception of what the business is because we have a computer that we have to work on sometimes.

25:44So to me, that's the key to any food and beverage business success is making sure that you don't ever disconnect from what the business really is, burgers and fries. Let's put this amazing burger and fries in AAA Prime property. And we think it's worthy of that kind of environment. And that'll send a message about the quality of the product that we're going to be serving inside. But I can remember when my property director came back and told me that, you know, that they signed Covent Garden. I mean, that was that was another one of the kind of like, OK, this is going to this is really going to throw a stake in the ground for for this brand.

26:28We paid two and a quarter million pounds for the to pay the bar to leave and then put another three million pounds into building out the restaurant. So we were five million plus pounds into this venture without taking a single sale. Wow. And in the joint venture structure, is that yours and Charles' risk or is it a 50-50? Well, anybody can put money into the joint venture. Any partner could invest in the joint venture. It ended up being mostly Charles who invested into it, but it could have been either one. So fast forward to the day when we're opening up the first restaurant in Covent Garden.

27:06and Five Guys doesn't do like grand openings. So, you know, you can create this kind of false appearance of a very busy restaurant and a big deal by like inviting celebrities like yourself or, you know, your other guests who would, you know, show up and kind of make a big red carpet thing of it. And so it feels like it's a big deal opening up. But Five Guys doesn't do that. They just like turn on the lights. I've noticed the two Five Guys in the city where I live just appeared. And I'm like, oh, there's another five guys. And, of course, my kids were straight in. Ah, fantastic. Yeah, we love the young crowd.

27:43So, you know, we had no – we couldn't do that. You know, we were just like, we're just going to turn the lights on and have people. So we're there the Sunday before it opens up, you know, on Monday morning. And Charles and I are just like, we're cats on a hot tin roof. I mean, we are just like, you know, what is going to happen? What have we done? You know, we've done this joint venture. We're in for, you know, a lot. I mean, if this doesn't work, this could fail really quickly. And Jerry was just so calm. He was like, you know what? You guys have picked a good site. A lot of people walking by outside.

28:17If nobody comes, somebody will come in. We'll make them a great burger, and they'll tell their friends, and we'll build a great business out of it. And actually, the first person arrived at 4 a.m. the next morning, put their chair down outside the door, And we had queues around the block for the first five years. And how helpful was that message from Jerry at that moment? I mean, it was great to see his confidence. It was definitely a help. But, I mean, we were still like, thank you for your confidence. We appreciate that. If anything, it puts more pressure on you. This guy really does trust us.

28:52And the response, the customer response, that there's this emotional connection with five guys here in the UK, gave us so much confidence to go to Europe and the family to go abroad. And really that everywhere that, I mean, they've opened in, you know, Korea and Singapore and, yeah, Hong Kong and Singapore and Australia. And everywhere you go, there is a line out the door of people waiting to, you know, for five guys in that country. So you said that two of the brothers were there cooking? Actually, all the morels came over for the Covent Garden opening. And actually, you could say that it was a bit of a recreation of the boardroom where the decision was made, but yet in the kitchen at Covent Garden.

29:35And there was a real – I think it was a real magical moment for the family to be – hear these – I mean, think about these brothers. They had opened their first store in 1986. And between 1986 and 2002, they had opened up five stores. And they worked the stores themselves. I mean, they opened, they closed, they hired, they cooked burgers. I mean, they were working in the stores, making the brand happen. And then fast forward to 2013, and we're opening up the 4th of July in London, this glamorous, bright lights, glamorous city, and this amazing flagship store. and there are hundreds of people queued around the corner and they're inside cooking.

30:27It's kind of an amazing journey. And you could get a sense about the pride that they felt at having come from that small beginning. They had fryers in their garage that blew up and almost burned the house down. So they'd come from that to this kind of world stage. And seeing the family cooking burgers and fries, doing what they had always done as the brand of Five Guys. And in that context, it was beautiful to watch. And I think that, though, in itself speaks volumes about them as a family. Because by the time Covent Garden opens, they're wealthy. They're successful. full. They could have come over, stayed in a five-star hotel, cut the ribbon, eaten a burger for the cameras and left.

31:16Yet there they are in the kitchen with the staff. Listen, the family has been so laser focused on the product. And that is the genius of the family, which is, you know, don't ever take your eye off burgers and fries. If you do that right, so many things will fall in line. And, you know, don't compromise on the quality of the ingredients. Don't compromise on this, you know, the portion sizes of the product. Be generous, you know. And that kind of foundational urge has been, I think, the secret success for Five Guys. And have they done JVs in all those countries? No, no. Most of it has been a franchise relationship.

31:59So you almost remain the only people that managed to convince the Morell family to do a JV. Yeah, we're the only JV in the family business. And obviously, it's been an amazing journey for all of us to see this business grow this fast. And we knew that we had a great venture backer in Charles. And kind of one of his attributes is when you see an opportunity, absolutely just mash your foot on the gas and go how far and how fast can we go. And once we saw that this worked, we were like, hell for leather. How fast can we take advantage of this opportunity and cover? We went to Champs-Elysees in Paris and Granville in Madrid and Frankfurt and Munich in Germany.

32:50Go to all the capital cities of Europe and put flags right in the most high footfall streets you can possibly find. How did you know that that was the right approach? You said, you know, that you told the family, listen, you need stores in better locations. How did you know? You know, I guess, I mean, I guess ultimately we didn't. I mean, it was a guess. But, you know, I think Charles has made some really smart bets. And when he saw this, when he tasted the product, you know, he knew what was available in Europe, in London particularly. It was like, this will work if we give it the platform and the stage to play on.

33:37And he was very much right in that case. So I think it's so interesting, this idea of risk taking. Do you feel like it was a risk? It was. It was, of course, on that Sunday before we opened up, it felt like a terrible risk. You know, I mean, every insecurity you've ever had, you know, kind of pours out of you. And then, again, you have this tremendous relief. And I can remember, so this guy shows up at 4 a.m. And I was like, okay, that's kind of cool, right? That's, like, really promising. Like, I'm feeling like maybe it's not going to be a complete disaster. And then the line is, like, around the building.

34:17And you can just feel this. I mean, that anxiety turns into, like, panic. Because, like, you know, what's going to happen? And there was another moment where one of the chief operating officers said, you know, look, you should turn on your online ordering because, you know, if you turn it on right when you open, then customers get used to that and they'll keep doing that along the way. And we were like, I'm really not sure that we should do that. We really should probably just focus on these people who are kind of in the queue outside. He's like, no, no, no, you really, really should turn it on.

34:51And we could see online that like 6 ,000 people were downloading the app. And so we're like, oh, no, I really don't think we should do this. And he's like, no, no, you should definitely do it. Like, do it. So we turned it on, and the printer, like, burnt out. I mean, it's just like the entire spool of the printer. So we had, like, 700 orders. It was like as many as they could print, like, immediately from online ordering. It's like all these people are queued outside, and we've got 600 orders from people who just ordered online. What are we supposed to do? So this kind of anxiety turned into, like, just outright panic.

35:27What did happen? It was a night we crashed the kitchen. I mean, the kitchen just completely blew up. I mean, it was a good crew. They knew how to cook. We had the original Morell brothers here cooking, you know, on the cook line. So some of the best operators you could get. And it was just we broke records. I mean, you had the best hour, the best day, the best week. You know, it was just, you know, all were covered and guarded. So did all those orders that came through get served? Yeah, we did. Essentially, we took every merchandise that we had, and we walked the queue, and we said, like, we are so embarrassed.

36:00We're so sorry. It's going to be a painful process to get you in through your order because we've got to get these. We obviously turned the online ordering off. That was a disaster. Do you remember how many online orders came in? I think it was like 600. It was a lot. It was a lot. But we were like, no more. No more. We can't. We're going to turn it off, and we're going to deal with the people who are actually here trying to get in. So how many, do you know, you must know the number, how many burgers or something you sold on that day one? Gosh, let's see. We would have, it would have been, you know, it would have been thousands.

36:31In the thousands? Yeah. So what was the greater thrill for you? Walking out of the meeting with the Morels, knowing you'd done the deal, or the end of day one in Covent Garden when you knew you'd done a deal for something that was going to work? Yeah. Well, I think that seeing the reaction to the actual customer interfacing with the brand is the most thrilling thing that you can see. I mean, and again, it was kind of like I would draw the distinction. We had done the deal, and that was intense. And that's the top of – that's the Everest for a transactional person. So that's a pretty great mountain to climb.

37:10But the beautiful thing about food and beverage or retail, seeing a customer fall in love and engage and kind of have this kind of passion, interface, connection with what you believed. It's like the thesis worked, right? I mean, people fall in love with Five Guys and the great burgers and fries and the freshness, all that kind of stuff. Like, that's magic. What's the biggest thing that you've taken from this journey? The satisfaction of being a part of a team. You want to be the superstar and you want to get the glory. And actually, the kind of secret to food and beverage success is how can I make the guy, the gal who's cooking burgers on the grill on a Tuesday, How can you make them feel the glory of us sitting here talking about this business proposition?

38:12Make them feel like they're the essential part of that success. And so kind of reflecting whatever success and accolades the brand gets to the people who are actually doing it. Gosh. Well, you learn to celebrate them. and make sure that, and, you know, being in stores, you know, I mean, there's, there's, you know, any day that you can actually be in a store is always going to be, you know, a fantastic experience. You know, the, the, the energy, you know, if, if you, I mean, we, we've spent a lot of time, you know, really building the culture of, of, of five guys and going into a store and seeing it come to life is just so sad.

38:57I mean, it's amazing. It brings such energy to me personally to see somebody who's been with the brand for six months. And people who have been in store now 10 plus years. We have people who have been with the business since the beginning. And seeing them grow. I mean, I guess that's the other thing is seeing career progression. People who grew from – I was a crew member at Covent Garden on day one. And, you know, they're all over the business now and higher, you know, places of responsibility. And that's really cool to see. I think it's so brilliant that you've shared the story right from those kind of early moments of doubt all the way to where you've taken it now.

39:37Who on that day in the room, which remember the Morell family was the sort of the most negative about this JV, would you say? Gosh, you know, I can't remember, you know, but, you know, I have great sympathy for all the skepticism. The only reason I ask is, have you had a conversation since with those that doubted you and you said, come on, it wasn't a bad move in the end? At that point, everybody's seen what's happened. And I think everybody can celebrate in the backside. But, you know, I mean, I guess it goes back to fundamentally. I think our purpose as human beings is connection. and you know and food and beverage is such an amazing environment for that right you know you're hungry you're tired maybe you're a little angry because you're hungry and tired you walk into a five guys and we're going to take care of you we're gonna give you some you know great burger and this whole idea of hospitality and um you know really that's the you know we're in the business of taking care of you know hungry people um and being a part of something that does that you know when you're a banker i mean i could my parents didn't even had no idea what i did right you know They're like, what is your job?

40:48I get that you put a suit on and go to work, but I have no idea what you do. And obviously with the five guys, it's clear we're making burgers and fries. And also I guess it's a more emotional connection to your life. I mean, when you're a banker, it's the numbers, right? And it's very black and white, whereas this is more ethereal, but it feels more real, doesn't it? Very tangible, this business. And real satisfaction of, I mean, look at how many people do we connect with? I mean, it's millions, right? All the people who've come into our stores across all these different countries and discovered Five Guys.

41:23I mean, that's – you've really – someone orders Five Guys on a delivery bit and kind of it sneaks into their home when they're watching a Premier League game or something like that. And we're a part of that, that kind of the stuff of life of – there's a great moment. We just put some kiosks in our stores. And I walked in to kind of see how the customers were responding to it. And there was a dad with his 10-year-old daughter at the kiosk. And she was ordering a milkshake. And, you know, we have unlimited toppings. You can get it, whatever you want. It's milkshake and then whatever toppings you want.

42:00And she had pressed like five toppings, like Oreo, you know, peanut butter, fudge, you know, and bananas. And there was this look on her face, like looking up at her dad, like, is that okay? Like, can I put whipped cream on top? And it was like this amazing, really human moment, right? And it was between them, right? It was a beautiful father-daughter moment. And we got to see it, right? We were kind of part of that equation. We were in the mix. And that's just really, that's a currency that you don't count in the till. It reminds me of a great book I've read called The Go-Giver. Because you know the word sell comes from the old English word sell-in, which is to give.

42:45So to sell to people is not about getting something from them. It's about giving them something. Interesting. So you're selling if you give them more than you get. So you can look at it and go, you know, it's like I'll take eight quid of your money, but you're giving them so much more than eight pounds back. Well, that was always – Do you know what I mean? You're giving, you're not getting – That's brilliant. I didn't know that. But that's always been a part of the Morel ethos, which is, you know, we're a generous brand. I mean, it's not cheap. You know, it's definitely, you know, you can go places and buy cheaper food.

43:16But you're not going to find a more generous brand. You know, you have this extra scoop of fries. You get fries, you get an extra scoop in it. You know, you get a hamburger and it's two patties. You know, a little burger is one patty. And free refills. And you get free peanuts. And, you know, there's so much generosity built into the brand to, you know, there's a respect for how hard every customer's worked to step into a Five Guys and buy burgers and fries. We want to make sure that you have an amazing sense of value that you get back for it. And for people that might be listening to this and their business may well not be F &B, they might be in something completely different.

43:55They might be an employee, an employer, a self-starter, an entrepreneur. What would you like to leave them thinking about in terms of your biggest lesson from business that you think is most valuable to people? Gosh, yeah. I mean, to me, it's the human element. And both in the team that I get to work with, you know, the satisfaction. I took a meaningful pay cut to go from banking to this job. and the currency that I've been paid with in terms of the satisfaction of the people that I get to work with is, you know, is, is incalculable. And then also feeling connected with the customer, you know, I mean, you know, you, you wear a five guys jacket down the street and you can kind of see people connect, you know, they're like a little moment where like, they're like, you know, like they're not smiling because I'm, you know, they recognize me or I'm good looking.

44:46I mean, it's, you know, it's the five guys on the, you know, on the jacket that they're like, you know, Yeah, that's cool. I like that. And so having that connection with your customer and the person on the street is pretty great. And how many stores across Europe now? 280. Wow, just the 280 stores from that one meeting that day in Washington. Indeed. It's been an amazing journey. On reflection, all these years later, with all the success that you've had, if you take us back into that room in Washington, what do you think is your own personal biggest lesson from being in the room where it happened?

45:19Yeah, I think maybe a couple things. One is business is done between human beings. And whether it's a family business or a corporate, I think in both cases, they're actually human beings behind the decisions that are being made. And showing up really matters. And with so much online communication and video conferencing, it's so different to sit in a room with somebody and sense, feel how they're thinking and responding and the body language and the eye contact. I mean, all that really matters. So physically showing up makes a huge difference, I think. I mean, it shows interest, commitment, and presence.

46:02I mean, all of that, I think, really matters. And then I think in the midst of the debate, that urge to interject a positive argument on our behalf and resisting that, I think actually was key to letting. And I think underneath that was a respect for the family and an appreciation that even though we really didn't know how decisions were made, it kind of became clear to us that this was how the decisions were made. And it was okay. And so I think being at peace that actually, however they resolved it, would be right. But also letting them resolve it, I think was key to them seeing that we could contain ourselves and restrain ourselves when the family needed to make a decision together as a family.

47:02Love it. Thank you so much. Honestly, that was so interesting. Thank you so much for taking us into the room. Well, I really hope that you enjoyed our conversation today. I thought it was fascinating. So many lessons for me personally, because we're surrounded by businesses, you know, the successful ones and the struggling ones, those that have good fortune, those that just seem to be unlucky. But actually to truly understand what is going on in those businesses, you have to lean in and learn from them. You have to ask the right questions. You have to be there. You have to be in the room where it happened.

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