How The AJ Vs. Jake Paul Fight Was Made | Frank Smith

0:01You've got to imagine he's been in there with the best fighters in the heavyweight division over the last 10 years, he's never shied away from a challenge. So when you say, do you want to fight a former YouTuber Disney star for a load of money in America in five weeks' time, he's going, that's a touch, isn't it? Because as any athlete, when you're going in there against Oleksandr Usyk, you're going to have elements of doubt. Whereas this one, it's just like, easy. I'd fight Jake Paul for a load of money. Today, we welcome the CEO of Matchroom Boxing, Frank Smith, to the room where it happened.

0:31You're about to find out how one of the most controversial fights of all time actually got put together. So just how much are Anthony Joshua and Jake Paul going to walk away with? Why has one of the great British fighters of all time gone from scrapping against Klitschko and Jusik to taking to the ring against a YouTuber? This conversation is going to break the fight game down in a way that you have never heard before as we welcome to the room where it happened Frank Smith in partnership with our good friends at IFS.

1:04frank welcome to the show good to be here nice to see you so what room would you like to take us into to start the conversation probably the room when i found out that anthony joshua could be fighting jake paul and i was what was it now it was two weeks ago and i couldn't quite believe it i was away at a show in it was the eubank ben fight week so the start of the eubank ben fight week i was in my hotel room eddie called me he was like i think we're gonna do this you know and I was thinking, is this bloke delusional enough, not Eddie, but Jake Paul, to actually go through with it? So you knew that there was conversations happening already or not?

1:38I knew there'd been initial conversations but this was the point where it was like, this is real, this could happen. They've come on with a proposal and you're sitting there thinking, wow, it could be real. So in your world, what does a proposal look like? Really the key terms are date, money, and not so much for a heavyweight fight, but normally weight. And that's it. That's what it comes down to. And then from there, you start building out. It's a 30-page contract that you start working through. But money is always the driving force in boxing, obviously. And was that the driving force for this fight?

2:12100%. But AJ will get a lot of stick from people. And people saying his legacy. He'll never get the respect, I don't believe, anyway, regardless for what he's done. So for this one, it was like anyone saying to you, do you want to go and do your job, but a really easy version of it, for a boatload of money? We'd all go, yeah, thanks very much. So for AJ, it was straight away, immediately, yes, all day long. What is a boatload of money? A lot, a lot, a lot of dollars. Is it? There's been reports? It's not his highest purse. Is that right? He's been very successful. He's been probably one of the biggest superstars in boxing over the last 10 years.

2:52you know he's made a lot of money he's boxed the biggest names but this is up there I mean it's up there for how long it will last as well How long do you think it will last? Not more than a round Honestly? Yeah it's just different worlds Yeah You know and I think Jake Paul believes he's got people around him saying Anthony Joshua is chinny which is a scary concept that you've got I love delusion I love the thing of like giving it a go but this is the other end of actually being a bit stupid. And let's just be totally clear on this for people because I've had people go, well, they've just done a deal and it's going to be like a show fight.

3:29It's not a world championship fight, it's a show fight. So they've probably already agreed that they're going to go six rounds and then AJ can open up if Jake Paul is still in the fight after six rounds. Let's just have the absolute truth about this. Can Anthony Joshua go in and try and finish this in the first 10, 15 seconds? A hundred percent. He would never have done it if there was stipulations, if it was holding him up for eight rounds. He's going to walk in the ring, and I would like him to step across, you know, onto Jake Paul's side of the ring, one punch, bam, finished. And that, you know, it's different worlds.

4:03It's a completely different world. Look, what Jake Paul has done in boxing, you have to respect from a business aspect. You'd have to be a hater not to respect it. But when he steps in there with Anthony Joshua, it's going to be unlike anything he's ever known. how quick does AJ think he can finish this fight he's not like you would have seen his interviews over time he's a very chilled character it's not like he's going in there saying I'm going to knock it he says I'm going to destroy him but he's just go in there you know walk across the ring and I think when he lands that first shot it goes wow this is serious and I actually think a little uppercut to the body could be fold Jake Paul over really I mean it's just a whole different world you know it's all well and good like Mike Tyson 58 60 years old you're going in there with a prime heavyweight a two time unified heavyweight champion of the world he does believe Jake Paul does believe what people say where he goes he's been caught with shots yeah by elite heavyweights you know this is this is going to be real I wonder even if it's safe you know yeah I mean it has to go look if I was representing Jake Paul as his promoter manager would I say it was a good idea hell no you know but our job is we get a phone call saying right would you like to do this fight on December 19th in Miami, here's the money, and you go, whoa, yes, please.

5:20And the money's been reported, I read online today, I was trying to get the latest, at 140 million for Anthony Joshua. Is that a long way wide of the mark? It's not quite there, but it's a lot of money. It's not that kind of number. Right. But look, that's what keeps it going around. There's a lot of talk all the time about what these numbers are. But it's a huge amount of money. It's a huge amount of money for what will probably be a minute's work. So going back to the room, You've got a phone call from Eddie and he says, look, this is the number. Not 140, but it's up there. Tens of millions, right?

5:52Tens of millions of pounds. Is your instant reaction, it's good for AJ, bad for Jake Paul? Or do you also, do you think about the AJ legacy conversation at that moment as well? No, I think I've been in the sport so long where you see people. We live in a world now where you do something today and it's forgotten about tomorrow. Yeah. Right? And you've got to do what's best for you. Our job is to do the best for the clients we represent. Anthony Joshua has been with us since he turned out at the Olympics 13 years ago. We've got a lifetime deal with him. Our job is to deliver for him. So when you get a phone call with that amount of money, you're sitting there going, you know, where is this company?

6:25Thank God. So it's not, we never, don't get me wrong, we will always look at the optics of things. But we're logical. We're not fans. We're sitting there going, there's going to be people who say this is a joke. But our job is to deliver for him. And that is a fight that delivers for him. So we're sitting there going, happy days. all day long will take the money. And when you had your first conversation with Anthony about this fight, what was his take at that point? Was he initially hesitant or was he immediately, for that money and that guy, let's go? Immediately, yes. Yes, immediately. There was no hesitation.

6:58You've got to imagine he's been in there with the best fighters in the heavyweight division over the last 10 years. He's never shied away from a challenge. That's not the person he is. So when you say, do you want to fight a former YouTuber Disney star for a load of money in America in five weeks' time, he's going, that's a touch, isn't it? Because as any athlete, when you're going in there against Oleksandr Usyk, you're going to have elements of doubt. You're going to have elements of, oh, this is hard. He's bloody good. I would think, I'm not an athlete myself, but I would think that's what you go through.

7:27Whereas this one, it's just like, easy. I'd fight Jake Paul for a load of money. So he's obviously thinking, I'll do it. If I'm sitting there saying, I think he's more competitive, me and Jake Paul, than Anthony Joshua and Jake Paul. So there was no ounce of, oh, is this the right thing to do? It was all day long, thanks very much. And I want to talk to you about the art of negotiation because I think that is one of your great talents. And I enjoyed watching the recent Matchroom documentary and just watching you kind of like, I just think you think very strategically, right, about when people are coming together.

8:00So when the phone call first comes in from Jake Paul's people and they say, this is the fight and this is the money and this is the location, what is a good negotiation in that instance for you like did you manage to up the money hugely did you manage to get certain clauses or deals in place that you wanted yeah always pushing to get more money or certain elements that work for you and we did that in this in this instance boxing though as a business is something that's so much led by ego you know and that's the biggest downfall of people in boxing ego drives everything yeah whereas sometimes it's about is this the best thing to do.

8:34We've been in places before where we're not promoting this show, for example. It's not on our broadcast that we did a deal with DAZN to allow the fight to go ahead, who's Anthony's exclusive broadcast partner. And it was about, does this deal make sense? So when it came to the money, we pushed hard on the money, we pushed hard on all of the ancillary terms around it. What sort of things are ancillary terms? Whether it's flights, hotels, sponsors, all of the elements that come alongside it. Not so much in this fight because officials, you could judge the fight because it's not going to go eight rounds.

9:03but normally it would be officials, it would be who's walking first or second but in this instance, Jake Paul's walking second Jake Paul is the home fighter on the poster because it's like, who cares? but that's where ego too much gets in the way in the sport of boxing I remember when we made Eubank Ben going to another one the first time round, the whole discussion at the end we got to the point of everyone's making a load of money and it was like, yeah but he wants to walk second and I want to walk second I'm like, who gives a shit who walks second? no one remembers who walked second it's like do you want to make a few million quid happy days yes or are you going to lose this over the fact that your name's not on the poster first you know so that's normally in boxing in a sport led by ego that's normally one of the biggest pieces those elements of walk second name on the poster home dressing room that always comes into it it's interesting though that um that Anthony is able and you actually and Eddie as well are able to not look at this through an ego lens.

9:59You are able to go, for that money, for that opportunity, let's just go for this. I don't think there are many boxers that would do that who've had the career that Anthony's had because they'd be like, well, I'm the Formula World champion. I'm the guy. Let me go second. I'm the guy. Yeah, I think it comes with age and time in the business. Don't get me wrong. Maybe 15 years ago, 10 years ago, we would have looked at it differently. Even working with other promoters, we would have said, no, we're going to do it. We're the main promoters. It's got to be us up there. it's got to be our logo it's got to be our face now it's like who cares does it make sense for the business both the fighter and the business that we represent obviously being matchroom it does cool let's get on with it rather than letting all of those details of which are purely just ego get in the way of making a good business decision in terms of the actual like the finances how does it actually work from a matchroom business perspective like I know it's a great fight for Anthony Joshua how do the finances work for a business like yours how do you know that you're going to make money from these fights we get you know when it's a position like that we get a commission from a fighter right so they'll pay us a certain whatever is agreed in their contract a certain percentage of the overall money they receive and we earn that from your fighter yeah not from both fighters exactly but you know the thing is in boxing is you go through a period of investing millions of pounds into fighters you know from the early stage of their career what are you investing in there then their fighters and their opponents so for the when a fighter starts out say we promote you right and we take a risk on you you're an upcoming fighter and we say right but there's another guy over here but we pick you over him when you're going on undercards of shows we're not getting paid for the undercard really like we're getting paid for the main event is the and then we choose really what goes on the undercard of shows so say your purse is 100k your opponent's 50 the ancillary cost travel this they have another 20 we've invested 170 into you in your first fight right just an example then you go through 10 12 fights before you really get to a point where you're delivering revenue back so we can invest multiple millions into someone so like an unknown fighter fights another unknown fighter early on the build you've got you have to pay your fighter pay the opponent pay all the costs and then the training costs all the camp costs well they pay that out of the money they their purse right you're paying all these costs you're paying it really because you're giving them your purse yeah it's all your money you're investing this money and they may get to 12 fights him right and you might I think they're brilliant.

12:19They get beat. And it's like, wait, we've invested 1.5 million. And this is where boxing's crazy. Promoters are looked at, and don't get me wrong, there's some bad promoters out there. I'm not lying. But promoters are looked at a bit as like the evil devil in it all. Where it's actually like, we take a punt on a lot of people. And before you're selling big tickets or you're selling pay-per-view or you're headlining cards, we're fronting the money and believing in you. and it's like a lot of the time fighters get to the big time and they go thanks very much but I don't need you anymore and they forget about what's gone on and the investment that's gone on to get to that point So on a different kind of fight where you are the promoter like the Conor Ben Chris Juventus Jr.

13:02fight how does that work financially for you? That was slightly different because it's a Saudi show so Sela Save His Excellency Turk El Al-Sheikh he does the deals with the fighters we operate the event for them but it's their show but let's say like But does he pay? He does the purse, does he? Yeah. But say like a show at the weekend, we've got Ben Whittaker, we signed Ben Whittaker. We get a rights fee. We get our sponsorship deals. We get the ticket sales. And then it all goes in the pot and we go, right, you're getting X, you're getting Y. You know, the cost of running an event these days is half a million quid.

13:34Forget the purses. Forget like what you're paying fighters. Cost us half a million pounds just to put a show on. And every weekend, we put on 40 shows a year. Right. Every weekend you're doing a show, you're fronting up half a million just in event costs what would be then the total the average total cost of a night depends on the level of fight card yeah but like just the event costs are really around to put an event on of good scale is 500 grand away from purses you know and every weekend you do it say you've got a main event and it pulls out you're sitting there and you spent half a million quid and it's quite it's tough to ensure these days as well so you're self-funding that so you have to swallow that would you you have to we don't we we we have done well over the years not to cancel many shows i think we've canceled two shows right but it's just gone up in smoke so that is why then when you have a late pull out it's imperative to get another fighter to come in to find someone new and why sometimes you criticize the replacement fighter but actually for you as the promoter but also for your boxer who i guess would also not get paid right but also the fighters on that this is where people are like we've had it before you've got a fight the opponent pulls out and we go right here's the new opponent and they go and it's like well if we pulled the show you'd moan that the fighters aren't getting paid we're keeping the show on is it ideal?

14:51no no it's not ideal we're not sitting here saying it's ideal but we're doing the best thing in that situation to try and make the show go ahead so all of the fighters you know you're going to have normally on a fight card you're going to have 18 to 20 fighters who have been training 6, 7, 8 weeks for that moment and if they don't fight they don't get paid and what is a fighter at the very sort of beginning of his career going to be earning for a fight it depends on their amateur pedigree if you come out of the Olympics and the GB squad and you got a medal you can be making these days a lot of money 100 grand not far off that for the best of the best but that's then if you've got three or four of that happening alongside half a million in cost of them I mean there's a million pounds already disappeared out of your pockets I mean it's an expensive business boxing is an expensive business to be involved in and people don't understand the intricacies and the the money that goes into it to make it happen i think one thing that was very interesting from my perspective as a as a broadcaster was when anthony put out the message going by the way thank you to the zone for allowing me to do this so the zone would pay a lot of money to have anthony joshua as their fighter this is on netflix i'd love to have some insight into how those conversations went and also how you managed to get the outcome that you would have wanted yeah look the zone have supported him for seven years now seven years probably 2018 they started with their US business broadcasting his fights back into the US when he was still with Sky at the time then he signed an exclusive contract across from Sky so DeZone have been huge supporters of his career and without their support certain things wouldn't have happened he's obviously been paid a lot of money in return for that but you have to appreciate the work that DeZone have done you know Netflix coming in for these one big off one-off moments they're not interested though in the fights that built up to that point they just want these crazy moments once every eight weeks or so 12 weeks but you have to remember what the zone have done for him and that was a process it actually helped that it was it was so rushed because the deal had to get done because we were told this is how long we got if you want it we need to get it done within how long did you have i think we had about four days to get it done which when you think about the scale of it why though because they had a date jake had to fight he'd obviously was supposed to fight Tank Davis in November they moved it to December and they had to get it up and running quickly I believe a lot of it was down to sponsors that they had locked in ahead of Christmas so they said you've got four days and it's fair enough let's try and make it work and we'll do everything within our power to make it work So when you pick up the front of the zone and you say look this is rushed we've got four days but it takes arguably your number one fighter on your platform to another platform how do those conversations play out?

17:32They're very logical You know, it was all very sensible. It was actually, don't get me wrong, they obviously get paid out of it. Would you guys have to pay? It comes out of the pot of money, essentially. But they were logical with it. They look at it and go, it's in five weeks' time. It's not a show that they would do. You know, Jake Paul, Anthony Joshua at that point. So it's like, cool, let's all make a sensible deal and we got there. And I see that it's good for Anthony financially. I see that it's good for Jake Paul because he has to try himself against one of the greats is it good for boxing?

18:09Again I think we live in a weird time where the reality is 80-90 million people are going to watch Anthony Joshua chin Jake Paul and whether you like it dislike whatever your view on it is you're going to watch it and the moment happens this is the truth the moment happens everyone goes alright on to the next thing you know and you look back at like Muhammad Ali had exhibition fights back in the day when he was around No one questions his legacy now. No one goes, oh, yeah, he was good, that man with Ali, but do you remember he had that exhibition? So we live in a time now where everyone's got an opinion, which is great, and we live in that social media generation.

18:46But as soon as it happens, something else mad happens. There's something mad going on in the world every day. This is just one other, like Jake Paul, Mike Tyson happened. No one talks about that now. But at the time, it was, what, Jake Paul's fighting a 60-year-old man. and at that moment it was a big talking point now no one cares this is the next talking point and there'll be another talking point the week after in some ways is it for someone who's a promoter like you is it actually quite an exciting time to be involved in this world because like mad things happen and this is like a mad thing 100 % I think a lot of fighters can learn from Jake Paul I haven't always seen eye to eye with Jake Paul or the team around him necessarily but you have to respect what they've done in the business of boxing and it just shows if you can build a character and then go into whatever area, whether he took that into football or he took it into another sport.

19:34He chose boxing because it's something he loves. But look at what he's built. He's put himself in a position as probably one of the biggest active, whether you like him, active boxers in the sport. And I think a lot of fighters can learn from that. Not necessarily, they don't have to do exactly the same thing. But he's a superstar. And that's what, you know, you can be a great fighter. There's a lot of great fighters out there. I say about Andre Ward is one. He was a great fighter. Didn't want to do any media. Didn't want to do any work outside of the ring. So never got to the level he could have done because he was just a great fighter.

20:07And you have to have both sides of it. How old were you when you joined Matchroom? I was 14 when I started doing work experience. So I was at the, we used to do poker. I used to be at the studios delivering teas, coffees, pizzas when I was 14. Did two years of work experience in the summers. and then I moved there full time when I left school at 16. I remember saying to Eddie, I met Eddie at a party and called him a tight bastard because he only bought 20 quid's worth of raffle tickets and I got 50 quid out of him. And I said, I'm going to work for you one day. He was like, yeah, yeah. He was 29 years old and he was obviously looking at me going, can you leave me alone?

20:44And then I pestered him every day for a job. He gave me a job at the start, but I grafted through all the areas of the business and then obviously where I am now, It's been 17 years full-time. It's been a great journey. Hopefully you'll enjoy answering this question because I know that you've not seen eye to eye with Jake Paul and his camp over time, but you can also learn a huge amount from them. Everyone is trying to be relevant. Everyone is trying to create noise. Everyone is trying to create a character. Everyone is trying to cut through these days. What are the things that you've seen them do that are really impressive and that mean he's now able to step into a ring with Anthony Joshua?

21:21I mean look I love putting on shows so Eddie's passion is the sport of boxing I'm not saying I don't like boxing but my thing is I love walking out at an event and going wow we did this and I think when I've been to their events and you see the scale they do it to and again we've had our differences but I said to them I said to Nikisa who's the CEO of Most Valuable Promotions I said you should be amazingly proud of what you created here because those kind of moments that's what I live for and to see the level they do it at they're doing a lot of their shows we're doing 40 events a year around the world.

21:52They're probably doing eight to ten. You know, they have more focus on individual events. But I'd say that's one of the biggest things. And I'd say with Jake as well is seeing what he's created and actually not listening to all the bluff in the background. Because really, I mean, everyone writes him off. But he's done exactly what he said he would. And, you know, he can't really win because everyone says, well, you haven't fought anyone. And now he's fighting Anthony Joshua and they're going, well, you're crazy. They say, well, which one do you want? you know he's going from one end of the spectrum to the other but his ability just to turn all the outside noise off and go i'm doing my own thing and whether you like him whether you like it the way he comes across you know you've got an opinion on him and that's that's important especially in the walker you know the world he's in when you say you love putting on a show and you've seen the way they've built that noise around jake paul what is this what is the secret to a great show i think you have to put yourself in a position of a fan you know i go to events and i look at every minor detail there's a lot of people i've worked my way up through this business from and been involved in every element i'm not saying i'm the best at it all but i can see you know where improvements can be made because i've been involved in all of those those bits i i go to events and i think you the u.s is an amazing market for this when you go to live sporting events the entertainment factor at the end of the day we work in a sport where you can't control the sport and that's with every sport you know you could have two of the best football teams playing it could be a terrible game but can we we can control everything around it and the event we put on and the entertainment around the event and you want to go into a venue and you want to walk in there and go wow do you remember that night we were there and that's what i get when i walk out at every venue taught them a couple of weeks ago for you bank men too i got to walk out 65 000 people in there singing sweet caroline the phones you know the flashes of the phones and you think just for a couple of seconds you look out there and you think wow we did this you know small part of it.

23:44I'm not saying I got in the ring and thought, but you created this moment and you're a part of creating that moment. And I think there's not many jobs left now where you get to be involved in that from inception all the way through to delivery and you get to see it with your own eyes. And they do a tremendous job, Jake and his team, of making sure everything is at the highest level. And I respect that. Again, for all of my differences, I can sit there and go, well done. and is it strange for you that you're not the promoter for this fight like you have to sit and watch what they do it's different you know I mean but we've done a bit like when Queensbury got the deal in Saudi and Anthony Joshua went on those shows that's the ego factor yeah you know that's taking away the ego and going do you know what we've made the best possible deal for the person we represent we did well out of it as well like we got paid but forget everything forget all the noise it's about just being involved in these events.

24:41No one's going to remember who put it on. They're going to remember the moment. And are there not elements though that you say that we need control over these few bits? Yeah, certain bits. Because it represents your fighter, right? Certain bits, but... What sort of things would you want input into? I mean, more media stuff and what he has to do and ensuring it aligns with what he agrees with. Because you know Anthony as a character as well, as a person. He's never been the outspoken, big, loudmouth character. And he's never going to change. So he's not going to change just for the promotion of this show you know so that more around that but a lot of it is actually people what you find over time is people put blockers in the way and and create problems to justify existence like i work at well work in a sport where people are surrounded by 15 people who've all got an opinion don't know what they're talking about and they feel like if they don't say something or create a problem that they they're not deserving of what they're they're getting paid and it's they come up with things so we're very different we're just like does it make sense is it all good perfect let's get on with it you know and I think that's what you learn over time and that's what you see with the best I see it with the best of the people I work with they're actually quite simple characters who just entrust things and you know it doesn't have to be a big song and dance it's just you know go out there do the best job you can but I think too many people put stumbling blocks in the way of making deals happen.

26:01And who taught you that? I think it's very, like, I get compared to Eddie a lot as an individual, right? Eddie is the biggest showman, the biggest character in the world. And I'm not loud. You know, I was never, I never came into the sport or the business to do this. I came into it because I love putting on shows. So that was my focus. And we're two opposite characters. And I think for me, it's, I'm in a sport where from a young age, I saw ego destroy things or destroy opportunities. Like when? Like, you know, whether it was with deals, big deals, because their name wasn't on the right side of the poster.

26:39It's happened so many times. You've seen fights break down. Yeah. Over minuscule, ego-driven things like that. And it's like, what are you doing? And I say to every fight we represent, if the deal's right, no one remembers who walked in second. No one remembers that your name was the other side of the poster. You know, and I think from a young age, watching that, and because I'm more of a little, I sit back in a lot of meetings. Eddie's a big character. He likes talking. So I'm much more there. I can be quiet. And some people will think, oh, he's not that impressive. But I go away and then me and Eddie bicker and have a back and forth because we have two completely different views a lot of the time.

27:16And I think that was something that I sort of taught myself early. It's like don't let ego get in the way of doing something that makes overall sense. And that's a very interesting observation when you've gone into a business run by Eddie and Barry Hearn because actually the two of them have traded on their egos. The reason why Matchroom is where Matchroom is is because they've told the story of the business. It's not just the story of your fighters. People know the name Matchroom. There's an awful lot of other promotions business in sport and you have no idea of which company is doing the promoting.

27:50So it's been an important part of the way they've operated their business as well, hasn't it? 100%. But if you have too many people like that, I would never have worked with Eddie. Imagine if I had an ego. Because I see it in a lot of conversations where I will do deals or things, but optically to the public, it's like, and this is what I get a lot of the time, everyone's like, he's useless, that kid. Because I'm perceived to be, I'm 33 years old, but I've been there since a young age, so people look at me as a T-boy. They go, not sure about him. He doesn't know what he's talking about. But because Eddie's such a big character, everyone's like, and Eddie's brilliant at what he does.

28:21But I think if there was too many egos in the business, it would never work. Yeah. that's the reality if I was the same as Eddie I wouldn't be here and it's very interesting that we live in this world where it's not about saying something that's useful it's just about saying something and that undoes people so often right 100 % but I think because from a young age where I was lucky at Matchroom is they involved me in things from a young age so they put me in rooms right where I maybe wouldn't have put myself you know or wouldn't put someone junior you know but they put me in that position Barry especially as well where it's like You'd sit in meetings and you'd think, I've got no place to be.

28:57But just sit in listening, understanding things. Like you say, we live in a world where you have to be the loudest person in the room. Actually, if you can sit there, take in all of the knowledge, siphon off the rubbish and just take that and move forward with that, that's such a skill to be able to do that. How much would you personally like to see the Joshua Fury fight happen? 100%. I mean, I don't think he can retire without that fight happening. It's been a fight that's been spoken about so much for years. And probably, like, you know when you get asked about it now, is the fight happening?

29:34It's like we've done so much talking in the past. Do you know what I mean? Where we've said, yeah, it's happening, it's happening. And it's not been made. And it's kind of like, it's frustrating as a fan, I'm sure. But it's also, we're fans as well. We want to see the biggest fights. So for me, before he retires, that's got to be a fight that's made. And I'm confident in 2026, it's a fight we'll see. It's not done yet, but I'm confident that is what we'll see. You know, we had Tyson on High Performance a few years ago. It was funny, we recorded it in a little church near Morecambe. He said, I'll do it, I'll come on, but you need to come up to me.

30:06And I was driving around in my car, and I kept driving down these country lanes, and I kept going past this little church. And I thought, well, the sat-nav says it's in that church, but it can't be. So eventually I just pulled up and I went in, and there was a yoga class happening. And underneath this church, this village church, next to a campsite, there was this steps down. And we went down there. And he was in Morecambe. And he'd driven out in this white van on his own, rocked up just some random old white T-shirt. He sat down. I don't know whether you've listened to it, but he goes, the most incredible conversation about his life and stuff.

30:42But that was at the time where he was publicly saying, they need to agree to fight me. And that was actually the day where he was saying, they've got until five o 'clock today to agree so you hear that from his camp then you hear this from your camp like why can't like for everyone it's the right fight for everyone for us the details have to work what details though like what sort of things look there's been so many conversations where it's been close there has been so many times but you know whether it was the money whether it was the titles whether it was the time frame whether it was the date that worked there's so many elements that come into it and it's happened so many times where I can't even remember the reasons does Anthony want it?

31:24yeah do you think Tyson wants it? I don't say this in a bad way I think Tyson's very like he's retired five times he's sort of like I'm out of the game so he'll want it if he comes back do you know what I mean? like he might just be in a position of his life where he's like I'm just happy you know he's got his kids he's got his missus where he's like whereas AJ still wants more from the sport. Tyson may have a different view. So if he's back in the sport and he's fighting, yes, I believe Tyson wants it. Do you think it would be a good story in AJ's career as well at this point in his career to beat Tyson Fury?

32:00100%. I do. Because that will always be the question. Yeah. You know, again, we go back to legacy and people will always go talk about his legacy but they'll always say, oh, Tyson would have beat him or this, that, the other. What a way to prove it. Let's talk as well about the matron work ethic. We've had Emily Fraser on this podcast. We've had both Barry Hearn and Eddie Hearn on high performance as well. And am I right in saying, who was it that gave you a note, like a written warning early? It was Eddie. Was it? Yeah, I turned up. So I was filming at a poker event and I was 16 years old and I was away in Maidstone at a hotel, right?

32:38And I thought Maidstone was like being away in Vegas. You know, because I'm 16 years old. I'm like, well, I'm away with the boys. We're playing poker. I'm 16 years old. Sounds like a dream. Yeah, I know. Exactly. I know. Maybe I'll go back there one time to celebrate this moment. But it was three o 'clock in the morning, and I was up playing poker, and I was sharing a room with a guy called James Dawson, who's still at Matchroom now. And we'd worked together for a long time. But I was in bed, and I think, yeah, I'd gone to sleep at about 3 a.m. We were in bed, and the phones start going off in the room.

33:09And James goes, oh, someone pranked calling us. This is a joke. Because we felt like we hadn't had enough sleep. It was actually the alarms. to wake us up in the morning. So we've pulled out all the phones. We're like, right. We woke up at 11am. We were supposed to be there at 9am. I'm 16. I'm crying my eyes out. James is like, don't worry, I've done this before. It's fine. You'll be sweet. It was a very different business back then as well, a long time ago. And he's like, you'll be fine. You'll be sweet. I turn up. I'm still crying on the way to the studios. Genuinely like you're in tears. Yeah, yeah.

33:39I'm still, I'm a kid. I was young. Do you know what I mean? I wasn't like a 16-year-old now who's a bit more understanding of the work. I was a kid. And were you crying because you thought you'd blown your shot? Yeah, and I was just scared. I think I was scared. I was scared of what my mum would say. One of the things. I was like, my mum will go absolutely mental. I've been given this opportunity, and I've messed it up after two months. So we get to the studios. Emily Fraser actually took my job that day. So I got put in the TV trucks, right? And my job was to note down the cards, like log the cards, right, that come up on the screen.

34:14something like this doing this most boring job ever it's like a 14 hour day punishment yeah I've in a break I've turned around and there's like a a letter chucked on the desk I've looked around at his head and I open this letter and it's a final warning and I'm crying into the final warning and he's just looking at me like you know I gave you a job so how old was he at the time? he was probably 31 at that time yeah and again it was a very different business back then he sort of stuck his neck on the line to give me a job give this 16 year old a job and I've messed it up after the first month. And I think that was one of the moments where I went, I was like, right, you've got to switch in there.

34:51And ever since then, probably still on a final warning now, but ever since then, you know, I've been fully committed. Like, it's my life. It's my whole life. And that's where the work ethic piece of Matchroom, because it's a family business, as big as it is, because it's a family business, you have that element of care. And I've always had that element of care there, like it was my own money. from way back when I was 16, 17 years old. And I've been there so long now, it's like part of the furniture. But Barry instills it in you, and then Eddie. Like, Eddie doesn't get the plaudits or the credit he deserves.

35:26Yes, he's silver spring. Come from a nice upbringing. Yeah, he did. He didn't have to do what he does. He works tirelessly. You know, when he came on High Performance, I said, do you have any regrets? And do you know what his regret was? That his dad started the business. And I think whatever he does with Mattram, because he has accelerated it to a new level, He will forever have that sense, I think, only that he wasn't the founder of the business. But it's the world we live in, isn't it, where everyone wants to bring people down. Yeah, absolutely. And he's like, look, he's done very well. He's very successful.

35:54He doesn't care too much about it. There are enough kids, though, born to wealthy families who've got the opportunity to take over the family business, and they either don't do it or they have a go and fail, or they don't move it forward. It's a nonsense to think that just because you've got a wealthy opportunity at a young age that everything's made. but I think it makes other people feel better maybe to say oh Eddie's only done it because he had an opportunity because actually is it available to most people probably that's the world we live in though isn't it everyone wants to bring everyone down as soon as you become successful it's well not sure about this person and look to be successful you're not going to be everyone's cup of tea that's the reality not everyone's going to like you but I think for him it's even harder because it's like just perceived oh it's just Barry Hearn's son and that will always be the way.

36:44But what he has done is quite amazing and I see it day in, day out. We work non-stop, whether it's three o 'clock in the morning, four o 'clock in the morning and still our mentality hasn't changed to money. It's a huge business, a billion pound plus business, right? But if we can chase down a deal for 10 or 20 grand, we're chasing down or even a grant. We're getting the grant. Why is that important? Because it's not losing sight of where you started. And I do it with audio. If I go and sell two grand's worth of tickets to someone, that's another two grand. That's up. And that's always been instilled from Barry as well.

37:23As big as the company is, it's like, no, you get on there, you get out there, you crack on with whatever you're doing and you bring in the dough. When I started, they used to put me in Barry's office cold calling people to sell darts tickets. They used to sit in Barry's big office, right, and they used to be like, hello hello um you know but eddie would be like no put the phone down put the phone down right so you go next one hello i'm calling um the darts circus tavern but i'll put the phone down put the phone and that's rejection actually is the thing that probably got me to where i am now as well but it's like these things you know like podcasts or press conferences or interviews we you know we work in an industry where you're readily available right it's constant interviews you know i did 11 interviews yesterday at a press event with Ben Whittaker and when I started out all I had was comparisons to Eddie right and I'm never going to be Eddie Hearn when it comes to that side of things but at the start it's quite difficult when you're 26 years old 25 years old you're doing interviews and it's everything's filmed and all of your mistakes are filmed yeah and you have to go through that process of the only way you get better is by doing more of it but while you're trying to get better you're making mistakes and people are going he's useless he is or like he's no eddie hern it's like i know i'm not eddie hern you know and that was i think that was one of the biggest things for me is getting more comfortable doing this kind of stuff you know and again it was never my focus but you have to go through those tough bits in order to excel in whatever it is and what's the secret to protecting your own mental health and your own self-belief confidence in the world you're in because i think of all the of all the sports to be involved in where people feel they are allowed a strong opinion about something i think it's boxing they're allowed a strong opinion about the fighters about the result um about the managers about the setup like every single and and like it's almost like the more aggressive and the more angry and the more strong your opinion the more clicks you get therefore the more relevant you feel therefore the more you have an opinion and you're the one sort of stuck in the middle of it and i and people often don't see there's a human being stuck in the middle of it they just see that it's a guy called frank who must be fine because he's working for matchroom it's no problem what's the truth i think i'm a bit of my missus actually says it to me i'm the most positive person you could ever meet right every morning i'm like happy oh it's great you know another day every day every day of the week doesn't matter what's going on doesn't matter what the problems are, just get on with it.

39:55So I'm a bit, I don't understand that sight. I read things, I go, that's funny. This guy thinks I'm a fat prick or spotty twat or Eddie Hearn's little bitch. I don't know if you can swear on this. All of that's in the trailer, that's the perfect trailer. This is like hundreds of comments, right? And I just go, mate, who are these people that are even watching an interview of me? I've still got that mentality. I'm like, why are you watching an interview of me? If you think that. or like he's so boring or he sounds just like Eddie Hearn. I'm like, which one is it? Am I boring or do I sound like him?

40:27Because he's not boring, is he? And I think you just get used to it. The only people who bother me are people I know who say bad things. If you know me, right, and I'm not saying, again, you're not going to be everyone's cup of tea, but I can have a conversation with you and accept my shortcomings or downfall and say, yeah, I can understand that. But if you know me and you talk badly about me and I don't, they're the only ones I really have an issue with. If you don't know me... Has that happened to you? Yeah, a few times. A few times with people where... I had it actually, I made a comment in an interview.

41:00It was three o 'clock in the morning after one of our shows in America. And I made a comment about the Conor Benn situation. And I said, you know, everyone's got an opinion. And I referenced builders, right? And I said, you know, a builder telling us how to do things about drug testing. I don't know about it. And everyone was like, why are you going on builders? I was like, if I would have said accountants, or if I would have said any other job, no one would have said anything, right? I went on my Instagram or my Twitter the next day, and it was thousands of comments of this guy slagging off his fans.

41:32And it was not meant like that, right? And there was a guy who I know quite well who went on an interview with Simon Jordan. He went, yeah, it was terrible. He said that. And I was like, you know me, so you know what kind of person I am. And I wasn't saying it in the manner people picked it up as. and that's what bothers me is when people go out there who know you who know the personality you are and it's like start questioning you that's the only time it bothers me and how did you deal with it did you pick up the phone and speak to that person yeah I told them when I saw them I said like well you know who I am as a person so like for you to jump on the bandwagon because it sells that pisses me off but then over time I think as you get older you know you sort of become a bit more my brother-in-law called me a scumbag in a press conference and that one was personal for those that don't know you should really explain who your brother-in-law is yeah he's Chris Eubank Jr so we've been on opposing sides for the last few years with the Conor Benn saga but he called me a scumbag and that was one of the moments where it crosses over to personal and I'm like that moment right there Eddie if you ever speak to Eddie about it I don't care about anything really and that moment was like I was raging and then over time you go do you know what who cares you know I know what I am and as a in my own mind as long as I stick to the way I am as a person, I'm happy.

42:52I don't really care. You call me a scumbag? I'm not a scumbag. I know I'm not a scumbag. Get on with it. Does boxing need to be like this? It seems to me like, of all the sports, it's got itself into this place where it is all about confrontation. Obviously, it's boxing. But more than that, it's about the verbals. It's about... More than in UFC, it feels like. Some fighters need it, yes. But others don't. You look at Anthony Joshua, Alexander Usyk, right? when they fall or Anthony Joshua Vladimir Klitschko. It wasn't a bad word said, you know, because it was two gentlemen coming together. And there's other fights like that as well where you don't need that narrative.

43:27It's just about great fights. But some fighters are naturally going to have that. You're getting in the ring, you're going to have a tear up. You dislike each other. You know, so it does need an element of it. It depends on the fight. So with the fight coming up for Anthony, do you talk to him about what his approach is like? because I kind of feel like if he goes down this really like, oh, I'm going to rip his head off. I'm going to... It's a bit like, mate, it's Jake Paul. Like you said, he was on YouTube and the Disney channel. Whereas it almost feels to me like the best approach for you guys and for Anthony in this next fight is almost...

44:02I'm not really going to say much because it's such an irrelevance. Make it feel like an irrelevance in his career. Does that make sense? But also that's AJ's character generally. He's not the kind of person you need to say, well, do this, do that, because you would have seen it over the 13 years of his pro career. He's never been the loudmouth, outspoken troublemaker. He's just always been very respectful. If you're respectful to him, he's very respectful back. And that's the energy he's always had. So with Jake Paul, it's like, I'm getting in there. Yeah, a bit like you said, I'm getting in there.

44:31I'm going to go and knock him out and on to the next one. Don't give it too much thought. Also, the difference was Jake Paul was very respectful in his press conference. you know Jake wasn't going out there talking shit yeah so why is that do you think because I think he realizes what he's got in front of him and I don't think it needs it it's a it's a freak show isn't it let's be honest and by the time it comes around you can do all the talking in the world but the reality is Jake Paul is fighting Anthony Joshua and people are going to tune in for it so you don't need all the fake bravado and have you said to Jake Paul's camp like what does he think is going to happen here?

45:10What is he expecting to happen in that ring? I said to Nikita when I was there, I was like, he's mad. And he was like, yeah, but you know, it's what he wanted. You know, this is what Jake wants. Why? I mean, you have to think money plays a huge part in it, of course. He was under pressure to fight someone real. And could he have picked someone easier than Anthony Joshua? Maybe, but were they available in the time frame? Probably not. So it was limited options and he's gone go for it and I'm sure he's going to make a boatload of money is there a risk that Anthony only has five weeks to get ready for the fight though no he's always he's not one of those fighters that's out of camp he's always training in some way he was out of the ring for a few injuries that he had surgery on after the last fight and it was about coming back being 100 % but he's always fit look at him you know you're going to have to look at him all he does is train you know constantly So, no, there won't be an excuse if he only had five weeks.

46:08So, sorry about the result. What happens if he gets beaten? You'll never hear from us. It will be off. It doesn't even come into anyone's mind. It has to, though, because... No, honestly, I promise. Because it's just so wild. You know, actually, the bookies have got him 7-1, Jake Paul, which is insanity. He should be 70 ,000-1. You know, but no, it doesn't even come into anyone's mind. I mean, it would be the end of Anthony's career if he got beat. It'd be a big rematch though, wouldn't it? Come on. Would you want that rematch? That's not what you're planning on. I might take, I'll have to go afterwards.

46:52But no, look, you can't even, I haven't even thought about it. No, it hasn't come into anyone's mind for a second. And that isn't a risk in itself? that you're just assuming so strongly that the win is? It's levels. It's like levels of the highest operator in a sport going in against someone who's, don't get me wrong, has done a lot of work, but he's never been in there with anyone. That's the truth. You can't, the gulf in talent, you can't, I'm wrong, if Jake Paul went on a 30-fight streak of knocking out left, right and centre, top 10 rated opponents, it'd be a different conversation. And is there any part of these, the planning for this fight and the thoughts around this fight that like Anthony Joshua is not 21 anymore, right?

47:36He doesn't have too many years left as a fighter. Maybe his future is in America. Maybe his future is more in the entertainment space. Maybe it does involve doing some WWE or having a presence on YouTube out there. Is there any of that thought that goes into it, like a future-proofing? It wasn't, I mean, because they approached us. Because it was never, let's chase down a WWE appearance or a Jake Paul fight. it's just the opportunity arose does it make sense great let's get on with that and do that but for his career and the long term this is huge he's going to have 90, 100 million people watching chin Jake Paul it's going to go all around the world it's going to be billions of people are going to see the clips on social media you know so for his career and the long term and the longevity outside of just boxing because no he's not going to box for you know he'll box as long as he wants to do it but if you're looking at it another year and a half two years he's got a big year in 2026 hopefully we can see the Tyson Fury fight you know so he has to think about the long term of his career outside of boxing I don't think he's even looking at that right now right but you would be as his manager and I think that the world is more exciting than it's ever been for for creators I mean you look I look at John Cena and The Rock and I think that shows what you can do you can be a wrestler and a serious actor acting in Hollywood movies at the same time in this world now.

49:01Like that surely for someone like you who's in the entertainment game, it opens up a world of opportunities. Yeah, for sure. And that's what this fight will do for him as well. You know, and he's always been, he's been a character that people love. Because the truth is with AJ, he's just a nice bloke. Yeah. He's never changed. In 13 years of knowing him, I took him for his medicals 13 years ago in London. And I joke with people that he won a gold medal as a basketball player. because not everyone recognised him back then. I've been on holidays with him. I've spent a lot of time around him. And he's just a nice bloke.

49:34And that's why people buy into him because he's a genuine guy. And what about your future? Do you want to stick in this world? The tough bit for me is I travel. I do nearly 80 to 100 flights a year. I stay in hotels 300 nights a year, which, as glamorous as it looks, on Instagram, I have a wonderful life. and I would never complain about my life, you know, but it's not sustainable for the long term. You know, I've been doing it as well since, I started early because I didn't want to be at 50 years old doing the graft I'm doing now. So for me, I look at it as another five or six years. I love the idea of going out on top of something as well and saying, see you later, thanks very much, what a ride.

50:19You know, that was unbelievable. And I've been involved in some of the biggest events in the sport of the last 10 years all around the world. You know, we've done, we broke the attendance record in Dallas with Canelo Alvarez, Billy Joe Saunders. We've done multiple stadium shows in the UK. We've done, you know, stadium shows in Saudi. You know, we've done everything. I still love it. I still have a passion for it. But I don't want to become what a lot of people in boxing do, like these bitter old people. Because it's such a, it's a bitter business. It's not a nice business. You know, it's not a nice world to be in.

50:55And I'm a very positive, happy person. And I don't want to become a 50-year-old going, oh, fuck you, still involved in boxing, like what a mad business. I would happily, before I'm 40, go, thanks very much. I'm 33 now. So I look at 38, 39 as the time to go. And your goals change. You know, I've missed out on a lot of things. But on the other sense, I've done well. so but I've given up on it especially with family and your your view changes as to what success is yeah you know and for me when I started out success was purely just about money and again we're all driven in somewhat money is a driving force for the majority of people but it gets to the point where it's like I actually want to enjoy myself and I enjoy myself with what I'm doing now but there's other things I'd like to go and do I always say I can open a beach bar in Bali I make the best daiquiri on the beach um I'll say oh I want to have a flip-flop shop and I want the biggest problem to be what size haviana haven't we got today in in white or blue that that's honestly what I would go and do um and it's just like your focus has changed look I've really enjoyed this conversation I think um I think for someone of your age and I say that respectfully because I'm pushing towards 50 47 like sometimes it's funny because I feel like I'm a similar age to someone sitting here, then I have to remind myself I'm like 15 years older than you.

52:20But it's not very often that you have a conversation with someone where in their early 30s, they already realise that if their self-worth is tied up with the job that they're doing, that it will end in a bad way. That is not a healthy way to live sustainably. I think the other really interesting thing for you is this idea of being the light in the room. You come in here, you shake everyone's hand, you talk to everyone. And I think Barry and Eddie are exactly the same. and that is an underrated skill that can take people so far in life. Just to be the light in the room and as you say, wake up every day as an optimist because it won't be the perfect day.

52:52But I'm not sure what the benefit is of thinking it's going to be a shit day before it starts. 100%. 100%. And we can moan about anything. Literally moan about anything. Whereas I'm just like, oh, okay. Next thing. That's where I'm different from Eddie is like things go wrong at work. He will lose his head sometimes. And I go, wait, it's done now. and he goes that's all you ever say it's done I'm like well we can't change it so why are we going to sit and worry about what's happened and that's my whole life is like that that is my mindset for everything it doesn't mean I don't want the best but it's like if it's happened we haven't got a time machine so now let's just improve and go forward and get on with it in a positive manner rather than looking back in a negative manner so that's always yeah that for me is is the focus in everything I do um and yeah I can't I can't wait to look back and go wow what of time we had but do it on my own terms yeah you know not the other way around and finally looking back with it being done the anthony joshua jake paul fight is done do you think in years to come you will look back on this and think actually that was a that was a seminal moment in boxing because we actually despite the initial criticism at the time we showed people what you actually can do with creativity and ambition for sure you know and this is where people need to open their eyes we live in a different world now the world is changing the world's evolving and you need to you need to do things differently and you know we're only as good as the clients we represent ultimately because AJ's the one getting in the ring we're just there getting the deals done but these moments will all be moments we look back on and go actually remember that time AJ knocked out Jake Paul in front of 100 million people yeah oh that was crazy I mean you totally like if you look at what you've got you've ended up with a fighter on Netflix who doesn't even have a deal with Netflix you're fighting a bloke where 100 million people are going to tune in and watch it's what is it the second best payday of his career it sounds like up there up in the top top few yeah top three or four best paydays of his career for probably the easiest night's work the easiest night's work of his life so we'd all take that but old thinking is that's not what you do when you're a former world champion you fight the best fighters possible then you retire and then you disappear and you live in a nice big house but that's that's outdated thinking and the reality is the only opinion that matters is your own yeah because everyone's going to judge you everyone's going to question you and no one's ever really going to be happy for you.

55:13Not the majority of them. They're going to go, I did this or I did that. It's like, are you happy? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah? Well, I wish you luck. I just think life's about experiencing stuff, right? Do you know what I mean? That's all it is, is a collection of experiences. So let's experience what it's like to fight Jake Paul, one of the most spoken about people on the planet. I'd do it. I think I might do it as well, but mind you, I'm nearly 50. He likes older fighters. I know, maybe we'll get you in there after. Maybe you could be the perfect comeback fighter. Maybe. I'm pitching Eddie as the comeback fight I'm going to promote Eddie as the comeback fight for Jake Paul, I think that's the fight to make I love that, what an interesting conversation good luck, thanks very much what an interesting conversation I think what shone through there is the fact that Frank has been brought up in the Barry and Eddie Hearn school of business I mean, I know he probably doesn't like the comparisons but when he talks it feels like you're talking to Eddie Hearn the way that he discusses things but to go in there at 14 and to learn the ropes.

56:08I think this is a really important lesson actually when it comes to business right 90 % of jobs can be taught like you you can learn these jobs on the go and I think too often businesses don't give people like Frank the opportunity they don't give them the chance to go and learn on the job because they think you already have to be brilliant to get the opportunity but he is the boss of boxing at the biggest boxing promoter in the world at 33 having been there since he was 14 and if that isn't a brilliant lesson for so many businesses then I don't know what is. And I really hope that you found it interesting when he just broke down the fight game in a way that I've never heard before.

56:41I mean, the stuff about how you have to take a million, million and a half pound risk on a young fighter before they're fighting for world titles and you're making money was amazing. And obviously the story about how the phone call was made about the fight between Anthony Joshua and Jake Paul and they sort of went, well, is it loads of money and is it going to be over quickly? Yes, well then let's go for it. I just thought it was so interesting the way they sat and shared so much with us. I hope you enjoyed it as well. Don't forget, if you hit subscribe, then it means we can grow the show. We can invite even more incredible guests like Frank to the show.

57:12And I'll see you next time for another episode of The Room Where It Happened.

57:33Thank you.