Joe Wicks: Social Media In 2026, Dealing With Criticism & Sticking To The Mission

0:06Joe Wicks has built something himself without needing broadcasters to back it. he created it himself and you inspired me to build high performance to create this podcast to do all the things that i've done so i'm fascinated to have this conversation with you about the world of the creator economy as one of the sort of in my mind one of the og creators well thank you i had no idea that um no i had no idea i'd inspired you along the journey but yeah what you've built is incredible and i i still find it hard to see myself as a brand it's taken me a long time to see myself as a brand as an entrepreneur as a founder i just you know i mean it's been a weird journey because I've just really just loved what I've done and just shared content and never really had this vision of building something it was all about just about community sharing what I love which is around food and exercise and stuff it was never the strategic overthought process that led to these things happening to me it was very much like timing obviously with social media my love and passion my communication skills and here we are you know I mean like 14 years later like with the body coach brand and it is a well-known brand in the UK um but I don't really know how I got there so we're gonna have to unpick it a little bit I'm interested to do that because I've always well I've certainly been of the belief that on the outside you can make it look like it's organic but underneath you actually if we're being really honest you do have to look at stats and data and you have to create content that you know is going to be picked up by algorithms and everything and you do have to be quite intentional to create a brand from zero do you not feel that yeah I think you do and nowadays more than ever because there's so much competition but I suppose I was coming through in you know 2012 started doing like my boot camps 2013 bit of twitter then 2014 was instagram but you know i had this moment in time where the technology was there and you know i could i could share something and everyone saw it and everyone was sharing you know there was less users on social media there was less people doing fitness content and recipe content so like i just i just really felt i had the perfect sort of timing in terms of like what i was putting out there but yeah you know consistency with what you're doing is important but i never saw myself as building a brand it was always about community I just really genuinely loved the connection I could have when I shared a recipe and an hour later someone was posting a picture saying I've just cooked this recipe that Joe shared similar thing with the workouts like you know if I shared a workout and 100 people did it I felt that was a win but it wasn't this sort of thing I was consciously doing or aware of it was no idea of like I'm going to monetize this audience I'm going to get this attention and start selling products and books and stuff it that all came so organically and over over the years that went by sort of thing.

2:47But there must have been a moment where it had grown to a point where you did have staff and you did have commitments and you did have contracts and you had to stop just being a kind of a content creator enjoying his life and you had to actually be strategic about what you were doing to service all of the demands. And I wonder whether that kind of changed your relationship with it and whether maybe you reflect on 2012 and think, man, there was freedom, there was fun, it was simple, it was easy, I was just flowing, and whether it actually does feel a bit different now. Well, so as of today, we've got like the Body Coach business itself.

3:18You wouldn't really know from the outside, but I'm the face of it, obviously, with the content, the marketing, the recipes, the YouTube content and the app. But there is 25 people behind that in terms of like engineers, product developers. You've got HR. There's also people like marketing. But it's really like all below the surface. And I don't really get involved too much now because my brother, Nicky, as my brother, he's the CEO of the business. So he's really helped get the, you know, I suppose the innovation with the app, because it was originally like a PDF, it then became an app. And he's obviously been involved in all that.

3:50But, you know, I'm just really given the chance to go away and do what I'm good at, which is share content, inspire people, motivate people. But yeah, there was there's definitely been moments that sort of you could say stepping stones where it went from like, you know, a community to like a digital offering, there was a product for sale. And then, you know, that would go from like, you know, two people a day signed up and suddenly 100 people and 1000 people. but I've never really overthought the content side of things because I'm sort of sharing what I really care about, which is food and exercise.

4:16I've never really deviated from that. But I still love it. I still enjoy what I'm doing. We're self-funded. We haven't taken investments, so we don't have the pressure of hitting certain targets. Of course, we have goals and ambitions, but we're not really driven by that. Do you know what I mean? It's a nice thing to say we've got this big company that's growing, but it's not been our sole focus. So I don't let the stress and pressure overwhelm me because ultimately I'm doing something really good with my time and I'm making an impact, you know. And have you never allowed it to overwhelm you? Because I will be totally honest, building high performance up from zero over the last six years has been the most stressful thing I've ever done.

4:52I've had sleepless nights. I've had periods where, you know, certainly in the early days, I didn't think we were going to make payroll at the end of the month and you're just scrabbling around to find partners and brands to work with and then you do things like this lovely office that we're sitting in now in central London. and then it kind of like, I lost a bit of the fun and I had to kind of find that again and really lean back into what I love, which is sitting and having conversations like this with you. Did that never happen to you where you got too much into, you became too much of a businessman?

5:18Well, like me, you're in a position where like, you are the face of the brand essentially and it's like, you're strapped in, right? You know, if you slow down, it slows down and you've got to keep momentum. But, you know, we were in a position where it was a very cash-rich business from the start. So, we didn't have to sort of like, panic and do it, you know, rush things. It was like, We could just hire people at a nice pace. Where was that cash coming from then? The original product I had was called the 90-Day Shift Shape and Sustain Plan. It was a PDF. It was 147 quid, and you'd sign up, and it was very light.

5:45It was through PayPal, and then we'd take some information and put it into a document and send out. It was tailored calories, but it was more generic in terms of the recipes and workouts. It wasn't very bespoke, and obviously now it's much more digital. That product, over 800 ,000 people bought that product in about four years. I've done 147 quid and almost a million people paid for that yeah it wasn't always full price sometimes you do an offer so maybe like let's say the average person paid 100 quid for it but yeah it was a it's a crazy mate and what would it cost you to it would in a sense you know we had a little bit of software in the background and you'd have like you know we had an office and support coaching things so we did have like customer care and it sort of scaled a little bit but yeah it was mad like you know like I said I'd post a transformation on a Sunday night you know before and after and then like a thousand people would pay 147 seven quid you know that night it was it was mad and i used to think you know what if two thousand people signed up one day and you just you just sort of had bigger goals but you know that that product eventually was going to run its course if we didn't innovate and then nikki said to me look we've got to build an app we've got to we've got to digitize this product so then we obviously went and invested heavily in building the app the body coach app which has been amazing you know it's just it's a really great scalable product the reviews are amazing um but that comes with the pressure of hiring engineers you've got developers these these guys are on big money big salaries like so yeah there's that thing of now we're in a position where if we want to keep this business growing and keep these people employed then yes we have to hit certain targets we can't go backwards um so yeah there's there is i can't say there's not a pressure but it's not something that keeps me up at night because we've always been in a nice comfortable position in terms of having a bit of money in the bank and being able to pay the salaries but i do have to keep going and when i'm tired and i don't want to film and then my guy comes around zane and i've got to film five strength workouts and five hip workouts or whatever in a day like by the day i'm like oh this is exhausting but that's not every day you know i mean i just block out and do a few sessions here and there um but yeah if i stop it all stops you know the whole thing would fall apart and how do you feel about that

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9:20well I'm so because I'm so connected to like the mission I still I've got the the app's one thing right but I'm also very committed to my YouTube channel which is a workout a week for kids whether it's you know adults kettlebells strength session then I've got my animation for kids this new series I've done so I'm always trying to get people moving in different ways you know and I'll never my app business and the subscription revenue will never will never be as popular and more impactful as my YouTube channel. You know, I get two or three million views a month. So that for me, you might think, well, why not just shut down the YouTube channel and drive people?

9:53And you would, it would definitely drive a percentage of people to your app. But I've always had this belief that I want it to be accessible. So for me, I see a total number in my head every year. It's not like book sales and revenue and subscribers. I also think YouTube views, how many schools did I visit? How many part runs have I done? How many, you know, 5Ks have I done? How many people turned up? I just see this number in my head that grows. And so I'm really driven by that. like overall impact as opposed to just driving revenue for the app. And I know I would have been much more successful if I'd shut down my YouTube channel when I launched the app.

10:23We would have had probably, you know, maybe a third or double or half, you know, 50 % more subscribers. But I believe that actually it should be accessible. And that's genuine, right? You can't pretend that. You mean that or you don't. And a lot of the work I do in schools and all the stuff with animation, like I want it, I don't want it behind a paywall. I want it to be on CB, I want it to be on YouTube. like, you don't have to monetize everything you do, you know. And so it's just my North Star, really, and it's something that I've stuck with, and I still believe in that, you know. But at the beginning when I said, like, you were an inspiration for me starting High Performance, right?

10:57This is one of the reasons... Did you say that to all your guests? Because I've never heard you say that so, really. No. Well, we only met once before, right? And it was the first time we'd met when we were at the BT Tower. And then I did meet you at the British Grand Prix, but you were having fun with your brother. No, but you also come... You interviewed me at one of my book signings that time. Oh, yeah, in Norwich, yeah. Yeah, but it's always been at work, if that makes sense. I was like, hi, Joe, and you were out on stage doing your thing. And the reason why I think you've been important to me is there's two things, actually, I'd love to talk about.

11:25The first one is this idea of not getting pulled apart by the money and not focusing on just how rich and wealthy can I be. And I wonder how hard that is for you, because one of the things that I've at times struggled with is your credibility, like right from the very beginning was an important thing for me to look at and go, right, that guy, like he does it because he loves it. So I then created a podcast called High Performance. As you know, you've been on it. And then I saw all these other podcasters and they were like slightly different titles and slightly dodgy thumbnails. It was all very clickbait.

11:58And they were all like generating these amazing headlines. And there was a moment where I thought to myself, like, that's what I need to do. And then I had to sort of remind myself, as I'm sure you have over time when you've watched other people emerging, like what's the North Star here? It's about having impact. So I wonder how the kind of, the modern fitness influencer, you know, the kind of ripped guy who's clearly being paid by a brand to sell you something and they're just getting millions of likes and they're suddenly everywhere. I wonder how that feels for you because you're kind of an original fitness content creator, but you're also doing it with the right intentions, which I don't think everyone is.

12:34Yeah, I feel it's weird because I'm like, of course I'm an Instagram influencer, I'm a fitness coach. I've been in that world, but I've never really seen myself like in that kind of community as such. Cause I, you know, I do my, I keep, I keep in my lane. I do my thing. I've got, you know, I'm at home with the kids. I'm like, I'm, I'm, I'm kind of like, I'm not doing these big celebrity events and kind of doing that big fitness expos and stuff. And I, and I do, I'm so passionate about the simple things, which genuinely is just like movement and food and exercise. So because of that, there's so many things I can't monetize that I won't do supplements.

13:03Now there's certain things that I mean that, that of course I could have probably tried I hadn't had a go and built other brands off that. But I don't know. It's not this really difficult thing for me. I want legacy. And I want people to remember that I did something good and I didn't just take every brand and did every opportunity because it is easy to make money when you start taking deals from some of these big brands and these products. But yeah, it's just been a simple thing for me. Just focus on what you're good at. And I really believe it's why 14 years later, I've still got a brand. I've still got people listening and trusting me.

13:34Once you lose that trust, I don't think you can ever gain it back, right? Absolutely right. Trust takes a long time to build and it's very quickly diminished. For sure. But I know that I also have an ego and there's part of me that thinks, God, this could be so massive. Like if I just went hardcore clickbait or got on some really edgy, dodgy guests. Because anyone who's at the perimeter of extremity will generate a reaction from the audience. And a reaction means the algorithm picks it up and it suddenly goes everywhere. So I do sometimes, in all honesty, struggle with that. So why? So to get more fame, more recognition, but then you're going to come with criticism, maybe more subscribers, more revenue, more income.

14:10But if at night you go to bed going, oh, and you're telling your wife to interview this guy, I didn't believe a thing he was saying. I trust him. I don't believe what he's trying to promote, and I'm giving him a platform. That shit ain't worth it, is it? It's not worth it. It's a stage. And your podcast might not be the biggest podcast in the world, but for the people that listen, it's so impactful. And you know, you read things out. You read comments. you share stories that sometimes a podcast or a little nugget of something even like for me I might read a parenting book and one little paragraph completely changes my view on how to deal with my you know child with a tantrum and it's like it's a nugget of information that is transformative and so you've always got to focus on that I mean you might have seen all the criticism I got for the documentary I did and recently I did a documentary on ultra processed food and it was like really intense and it was not nice and I'm sensitive and I don't I'm always I've always got love and gratitude coming towards me.

15:01So when I got that, I was like, I couldn't deal with it. And I felt really like, I felt like I lost a bit of confidence. But again, I have to remember that you're not going to, you can't save the world and fix every issue, but you've got to focus on the people you are changing and the impact you are making. And for me, I've done that through lockdown. I did that through P, which I'm still really, really passionate about getting young kids and families moving. And I care deeply about the health of the nation. And I know if I stick with that, I'll keep making a change. even though it might not be everybody, I'll be helping someone somewhere.

15:32And so that's really what keeps me motivated when I'm having a tough day. Why do you think there was so much criticism around that project that you did? Which I think was probably a new thing for you, right? I don't remember you being criticised before. I did a documentary on ultra-processed foods where we tried to expose the health claims that you can put on these products. And it wasn't just about protein bars, but I made this protein bar called Dequilla Bar. and it was obviously like the angle was like, can we get the government to put health warnings on these foods? And when I posted it and shared about it, the week leading up to it, every fitness coach, all these trainers, all these nutritionists, even doctors and stuff, and people just laid in on me like, I can't believe you're doing this, you're demonizing foods, you're promoting eating disorders, you're stigmatizing low-income families, all the things that I'm literally trying to do the opposite of because I really want people to eat.

16:22I want equality with our food and stuff. But yeah, it was hard, man. And it was like, everyone was just click. It was like click after click, you know, and people doing those reaction videos. And it was quite intense because I, like I said, I've only ever really had gratitude for what I've done, but not a lot of people like, this is the worst thing you've ever done. What are you doing? Stay in your lane. But it was a campaign. Like you're going to, you're going to put your head above the parapet and you're going to take a few shots. But the ironic thing is that I was on Good Morning Britain the other day talking about a report by the British Medical Association, you know, who are now like doctors have come together and said, no, like what Joe is basically saying and what the Lancet and all these medical peer-reviewed studies are saying that it validated basically what.

17:00I know I did it in a kind of provocative way, but we have got an issue on our hands. The food we're eating, the volume of ultra-processed food we're consuming is really harming our health. And I had to just say what I needed to say. And I haven't changed the world, and there's no warning signs on food, but I've moved the conversation along a little bit. So I'm proud of it, even though it was a rough couple of weeks. How painful was it? Well, I'm very sensitive. my brother Nicky is really really sensitive and so when I'm getting attacked it really affects him so like you know he sorry I know it affects him because he's you know he cares about me a lot and so you know it really affected him he gets stressed he can't sleep and it's like it's not nice but I actually can take the abuse because I know that there might be a hundred horrible messages but there's a thousand nice ones so I I sort of focus on those but yeah like when I get attacked it affects me And my family as well, they read this stuff.

17:54And I always say never react, never respond and stuff. But it wasn't nice. But again, I know in my heart that the intention for that documentary was to help people make better food choices, look at the back of products, and get the government to really take care of us a little bit more because we are eating this food. And we don't know the harmful ingredients. The companies know. The food companies know. There's science there to say that it is increasing the risk of dementia, cancers, strokes, early death. and yet it's just so normalized, right? And if no one's going to talk and face up to these big, powerful corporations that are making it and put pressure on the government, nothing would change.

18:30And so, yeah, it was horrible, mate. But it's the same people that have been trolling for years, though, you know, ultimately. And I also know that social media, this is how it works. You know, you take a topic and you make fun of someone or you attack someone, you create divisive content, you create comments and clicks, and it's rage bait. And, you know, I never, ever engage in it. I see it and I do sometimes watch it. And I'm like, sometimes I'm like, what is that about? It's the complete opposite of what I'm trying to do. But this is the world we live in, right? This is the thing. Social media has changed.

18:59It used to be a very positive community-based platform. And now it's an advertising platform driven really by AI. And the more controversial, as you said, the more kind of aggressive and divisive and polarizing you become, the quicker you, the more famous and more like, you know, well-known you become, right? We saw it with the documentary, like Lou Foro's documentary the other day. I watched that. all it does again it hypes everything up again and it just feeds into like that thing that's my fear with that Louis Thru documentary is actually sensible people look at it and go those people in the manosphere are a disgusting disgrace but it also there will be people that watch it and go they've done a documentary about them and those guys will be going look they've sent Louis from the Matrix to try and unpick us and this shows you how much you've got to watch out for these people I fear that any promotion of people like Andrew Tate and HS Tiki Toki is never a good thing, regardless of the intention behind that promotion.

19:54Do you know what I mean? Yeah, it's just media, isn't it? If it's not on TV, it'll be on a podcast, or if it's not on a podcast or social media. But I just always try, in a world we're living in, just try and be positive and give out good energy and not get caught up in that stuff. But I can't say it doesn't affect me when I read them comments because I am on a mission to help families and people live a healthier life. And the comments were hurtful because I'm not trying to promote eating disorders. I think ultra-positive food is really harmful in the volumes we're eating. It's not like I'm saying you should never eat chocolate bars or protein bar ever again.

20:27But yeah, it was a very Channel 4 documentary. It was always going to be quite in your face, but I know for a fact that it's helped some people, and that's enough for me. It's so difficult though, isn't it? Because when you're going to do something like with Channel 4, they know they have to get people watching. The way to get people watching is to be provocative, but the person who ends up at the centre of all those opinions, whether they're positive or negative, is you. And you have to kind of find the minerals within you to deal with that. No human being is designed to have thousands of other people tearing a strip off them.

21:00And at that point, of course, you don't have a voice. So it feels unfair. Well, a lot of it's out of context. But like I said, overall, I won't look back and say I regret doing it. I'm proud that I did it because, again, it just brought it to the people's attention that we really have to take care of our diet. and the government, are they going to put health warnings on the food? Maybe they do it in certain countries, but just for today, maybe just read the back of your packages, maybe cook a healthy meal at home. I'm trying to be the solution rather than the problem because you can focus on it all day long, can't you?

21:25The problem and all these fearful scaremongering things, but actually it is a reality. We have got to eat better. We've got to make some different choices and try, if we can, to reduce the intake of them foods at least. And you said it knocked your confidence. Yeah. In what way? Well, they're like, do you want to do another documentary? I'm like, fuck no, not right now. but there's so many things I care about. You know, I care about, you know, sport in schools, PE in schools. I care about children's mental health. I care about food being served in hospitals and school. There's so many things I care about, but, you know, I don't know.

21:57It reminded me that sometimes you can put loads. I mean, that took me months to make a documentary, and, you know, it was difficult when it went out, and I got that kind of feedback, and I'm like, I don't know if I could do that all the time and kind of put myself through that when I could just, you know what, just keep sharing the stuff on social media. Do a YouTube series to get families cooking. Focus on the solution, not the problem. Because, you know, you're battling against, like, the biggest, most powerful companies in the world and who lobby the government. So even if you try and get change, you know, we can try our hardest, but they're so powerful the way they can sort of, like, just stop regulations and say, no, carry on as we are.

22:32It's all good, you know. And so I don't know if I'm willing to drain myself for that as opposed to just, like, trying to share useful, helpful, motivational content. I think actually it was a good thing for you because it's a reminder that you can go and play in that shark-infested waters of strong opinions that will generate strong reactions. And it may well make you more famous for a short period of time. It may well get more people watching the documentary. But look at the human cost it had on you. And actually, you don't need that. Yeah. And even the documentary, I did a documentary about my childhood.

23:01It's called Joe Wicks Facing My Childhood around parental mental health. When I do these things, it's never to become more well-known and more recognisable. I couldn't be more recognisable. In lockdown, it was like, pee with Joe there's nothing that's ever going to be more but it was about sharing a story to help other families there's always just there's a reason behind everything I do and the documentary like it wasn't about me trying to become relevant and just jump back on TV for the sake of it I thought this is a really important topic like the food we're eating is harming us who's talking about it who's you know really tackling it and so there's always a bigger incentive than just like oh if I get more views I'll get more you know YouTube views and it's like it comes back to me in a business perspective is it's more about the message that it needs to get out and you can't reach everyone on social media you know i i share these things online but there's millions people that aren't on instagram and facebook so how do you reach them you know you go to schools you you do podcasts you go on the radio you do interviews with magazines and journalists and stuff but you know like i said i i know my intentions are pure so as long as that is the case and if you said to me jake remove you're gonna instagram's just deleted and everything's gone your business and everything stops.

24:06I've got my foundations are so strong and my family and what I'm doing that I'd probably just go and work as a personal trainer somewhere and just rebuild, you know what I mean? And go again, because that's ultimately what I love doing. It's getting people, you know, moving and feeling good. So it wouldn't, I'm not so linked to it, do you know what I mean? Like I built this brand and I built this, you know, this kind of personality online, but it's not like my, it's not my be all and end all, if you know what I mean. Yeah. I'm not desperate for more fame. Like I don't want to just be on TV. I get asked to all the celebrity, like you know I did Glad Edge because I really wanted to do I thought that was really fun but I get asked to do strictly and I'm a celebrity all the time but that's for me like if I can't be on TV or be on the radio or be on a podcast talking about what I care about then what's the point of doing it.

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25:23So purpose is really important. Keeping purpose at the center of what you do helps to make your decisions, right? Yeah, and it's the reason I'm successful and I would say, you know, financially like, you know, successful in a sense that I built a business, but it was purpose first and then the profit came, right? Whereas I think nowadays, we've talked about this in the past, like if you're just thinking about building an audience and to sell them stuff and to promote stuff, like that's profit focused and then the purpose is lost and it doesn't last long and it's a fleeting moment and you're gone and someone else replaces you.

25:54So the people that are most successful, I think, are the ones that are truly purpose-driven beyond just like personal gain and well i've got my house and my kids are sorted i'm good like actually no like my mission goes way bigger than that there's so many people now though that are trying to create their brands for other reasons than just being purpose-driven i wonder whether you think like the kind of glory days if you like of social media are over where it was fun it was a safe space you could share like i remember in the early days you were on there all the time like your life was on was on instagram for a long time and I loved watching those.

26:25I see maybe a bit less of that from you now, maybe? Well, I don't know. I think since the documentary that happened, my confidence was like, oh, I got knocked a little bit. But then when you throw that in with the fact that organic reach is declining so far. So I used to have like 200 ,000, 300 ,000 story views a day. So I feel like I'm talking to this big audience. 200 ,000 stories? Yeah, based off of a 5 million audience, right? But now it's like 40 ,000, 50 ,000. It's just falling off a cliff. Why is that? Because ultimately, Instagram wants you stuck on the device. And so you're not really consuming it like you were.

27:00So you're not really watching many stories. You're probably watching reels. It's suggested stuff. It's the AI-driven addictive content. And it's like memes and it's DMs. Friends are sending you memes and stuff. And suddenly you're watching reels and stuff that you weren't necessarily watching before. And so users are consuming it differently. And I think the algorithm is pushing recommended stuff that it knows you're going to watch. It knows it's going to stick you to the phone. and so they're just not prioritizing stories anymore. Reels is where it's at, obviously, but then it's a never-ending monster, isn't it?

27:30You're just feeding it and feeding it. I'm also like, I don't want to spend every day on my phone. I want to be present with the kids. There's this thing of you've got to be on there and you've got to be doing it, but you can't sustain it all day, every day, which some of these creators are doing and they're streaming 24-7. Yeah, man, it's quite draining to be doing it that much, I think. do you get tired because every time I see you uploading a new video I do think to myself that guy that's 10 years that he's been like people I'm going for and then you've got these 21 year olds just starting out full of energy it's a real interesting dynamic isn't it because you're not competing with them but you are competing for attention because that's what Instagram has created this world where you can have millions of followers but that doesn't equate to millions of views anymore look in reality to the business we're talking about this with LinkedIn to the business as well like you know So YouTube, well, not so much YouTube, but Instagram, Facebook, impressions and views and organic reach last year is like 50 % lower this year.

28:27For you? Yeah, and that has a massive impact on the amount of people that see your videos, that see your pre-orders for your books, that see your offer for the app, if it's on an offer or like a Black Friday sale. So it has a massive image on a business, but it's like the glory days of social media are over. It's an advertising platform now, right? It's not like a, it's not this place. If you had 100 ,000 followers on Instagram and you posted something, you know it was it was like chronological like everyone saw it everyone commented and liked and then it helps you grow your business and you build your community now it's very very hard to get someone to click follow you've got to be truly unforgettable you know and that comes down to like you know are you like doing something really funny or is it you know polarizing is it something that hooks you in but I don't get sucked into those kind of like you know those um trends and stuff and I just just I just share what I like which is recipes and workouts and a little bit of motivation around you know mental health and stuff but i don't really want to kind of just conform to what's trendy right now and just do it for the sake of it do you know i mean and just be more like just feeding more content that is literally just like kind of mind-numbing content like i just don't get involved in it really but this is why my channels haven't grown for the past year like i'm obvious like it's obvious my instagram's stuck like at like 4.9 million and it has done and i probably lose thousands of dollars each month but it doesn't make me think oh I want to change my message or change what I'm doing so you haven't got like you know everyone like me you anyone that does what we do they have people that work in their social media team they're not like knocking on your door going come on Joe we've got to switch this up no they don't I mean I'm the only person doing the social media I'm the one doing the content so it's like I don't know I just have to really do it it has to be what I'm into do you know what I mean but I do need new ideas like there's definitely I'm at a point now I need to share something new I've done obviously Lean in 15 was mega when it were the cookbooks and Pee with Joe was massive and now I'm doing series but you've got to be innovating because like if you don't people forget about you and you know they need people need new stuff to keep them motivated but I don't overthink it but I should have I'm not very strategic what you're going to find out about me is I just live in the moment basically and I share what I'm sharing whether it's with the kids or whether it's you know with training it's just like it's not really I don't think about it too much.

30:35And it's so it's so interesting how different people are because you exploded in 2012 right and in COVID it was incredible you started in 2012 you exploded in COVID it was 2020 wasn't it yeah 2020 yeah 2020 yeah and it just you went everywhere I know that I'm the kind of person that would be clawing to get those days back to get those numbers back to get that growth back but it feels like you you found some sort of freedom that maybe I haven't got that you're not you're not too concerned about it it does annoy me when I wake up and I'm like oh I've got 30 ,000 views on my story but because I was so used to having just feeling like I was talking to a bigger audience having more of an impact but I have to overcome that.

31:13It's not an ego thing. It's not like a personal thing. Because I know that ultimately people still do want to see my story. It's just Instagram doesn't show it or it's not being surfaced and this is more competition. But like I said, my ego and identity is not linked to followers and it's not linked to fame. But you want to have impact though. That's the thing, isn't it? Yeah, and you need both really for it to work. But again, I don't know. I'm still trying to find out what is the next step for me really in terms of a new concept or a new idea. but it won't deviate much more from what I'm doing because I only really care about two things.

31:45I want you and your family to eat healthy food. I want you and your family to find time to cook and I want you and your family to stay active and move and do some fitness. That's it. So that's really the focus but there's obviously creative ways of doing it but yeah, I need to freshen things up probably. I guess for you it's like how brave are you with risk-taking? Are you someone that just... If you have a new idea, do you put your money behind it? Do you put your energy, your effort behind it? or do you need to kind of be guaranteed it's going to work before you go for it? Yeah, one thing I've noticed and I've kind of been aware of recently is that me and my brother were talking about this, and he is a true entrepreneur.

32:19He's the CEO of a business, but he has this vision and this unrivaled belief that it's going to work or he'll find a solution. He always believes. Whereas me, because everything's been, it's just been like, I suppose it's been a success from the start, if I'm honest, like, you know, with the Instagram and the books. And I sold 5 million cookbooks, you know what I mean? All I ever knew was what it was like to sell a million books. Then when you start selling 100 ,000, it's like, oh, I'm so used to doing those big numbers. But I don't feel that I am an entrepreneur. If I get knocked back and rejected, I find it quite hard to come back from it.

32:51Whereas Nicky's like, we're going to make it happen. We'll do it ourselves. We'll fund it ourselves. We funded the animation ourselves. We put the money into it and we built the episodes. Then the government got involved and gave us a bit of funding to make some more. There's a lot of things that just wouldn't have happened. And even with the app, I remember thinking, like, I don't want to, like, I'm scared. What if we spend too much money? Oh, it doesn't work. Or, you know, because when you build an app, you're going to have to build a team. And then suddenly... What sort of investment would that require?

33:16I mean, it's millions. And it costs way more than we thought because it took longer to build. And you're constantly innovating and iterating. And then, obviously, we then had an agency build it. And then we then, like, hired a team internally. So then you're paying, like, double the invoice. You're paying invoices to them while you're onboarding this new team. But, yeah, you know, it's an amazing business. and it's, you know, we're growing. It's a really like sustainable business. We're self-funded. We're really proud of that. But, you know, I think a lot of that happened because of him because he's just like a kind of real visionary and he just doesn't think it's going to fail.

33:48Whereas like if something's not working, I think, oh, it's not working and I feel a bit like, I suppose I retreat a little bit more. Whereas he's definitely, and that's a confidence thing. But yeah, I'm more, I suppose I'm more cautious, I think. And, you know, when you look at the way that book sales were for you in that peak or you look at the criticism around that documentary or the, you know, what Instagram's done to your impact over the last 12 months. Like, what does that do to your confidence or are you someone that is able to kind of just keep walking through with your chin held high? All I know is that I'm motivated by the mission, do you know what I mean?

34:22And that helping, even if it's like someone doing a YouTube workout this week, that's enough for me. Like, they don't have to pay me to do my app for me to feel like I'm successful. But of course, like, that's a bigger vision and a longer term like a legacy thing right that i want to and i really do hope that the body coach doesn't just fizzle out like if i run out of energy and steam will this business and this product and all this service would will it be able to continue like and that is a really big challenge right because i've built this audience over so many years and they're really engaged in contact with me and i think if i wasn't doing the workouts and wasn't sharing the content would it just would it just vanish after a year i don't know the answer yet there is a challenge with that have you and your brother spoken about a kind of a succession plan or what how you how you make sure that the business can live after you might want to retire you might want to go move to bali live on the beach like yeah it's definitely like the biggest challenge we face because you know we've got other trainers on the app but i think the majority of the views are obviously coming through my content and stuff but i'm not at that point where i'm like trying to sort of get off the train as such i mean i still i still love it and i can't see myself completely like stepping away from it i think i've got more to do but we are bringing other training to hopefully build the team out but there's so many there's hundreds of workouts on there like that even if i had no new videos today i still think it would continue to be a be a great business to still bring people in but i don't know i still feel like i could always be maybe the face of the brand and you know like but not necessarily creating all the really intense workout content but i'm on a journey so I'm evolving I'm 40 now so my workouts are changing my strategy around food and exercise is sort of always adapting so I think my audience will grow with me but I'm also at the other end like getting toddlers and kids working out with my animation so now kids are recognizing me going oh you're the animation guy so I'm always trying to think of the whole spectrum of people like it's not just about one demographic but yeah I don't know who knows the answer I really do hope though that in like 10-20 years time if I'm still not like doing the workouts I can still see that the body coach is still you know helping people throughout at what point did you realize that that you'd built something big enough for nicky to get involved in he came in like about it's probably like i think it's like eight or nine years ago i was living in singapore working as a journalist he was editing a magazine and i said listen like it's really picking up can you come back and help me and he came back and like started doing like you know my social media community manager type stuff and posting a few tweets and a few sort of things on there and then he's now obviously grown into the ceo role but But again, his journey has been quite organic too.

36:54We just learned along the way, we've hired different people. Sometimes it's worked out, sometimes it hasn't. But always having that mindset of like, we're trying to do this together. It's a mission we're on. And he's very connected to that. Again, he's not very money driven. He's not really kind of focused on that. But he loves the impact. And he's there with me at the events we do. He's always by my side. And I think he probably believes and wants it to be bigger than even I believe it can be in terms of the brand. And he's really got a big vision. And I have to respect that. But, you know, he's doing something that's not front of house.

37:24He's sort of behind the scenes. So for me, I really have to stay truly energized for what I'm doing and want to be sharing my life on social media. I want to be, you know, it's because you're performing. When that camera goes on, I'm performing a workout almost, aren't I? Because it's not just like I'm on my own and I've got my headphones on. I'm performing and it takes a different type of energy. You can never have a bad day. Nobody wants to tune into one of your workouts and you go, I've had a bad day. Yeah, I do. I say, oh, I'm having a stressful day. I kind of bring it into the conversation.

37:51but yeah you've still got to be like the energy you've got to give yeah you've got to give and i train really hard but like i said like i've always said my success is i'm very much like the face of it for sure like the strategic kind of organizational stuff in the background has luckily been because of he again like probably pushing me a little bit and driving me and also saying like this is what we need to do and you know we're really proud of what we've done but there's still so many people right now in the uk who aren't moving who are struggling and so we try and focus on that with like people even in our marketing team like you need you need to be doing more this and increase the price and that but me and him are always the first people to say like we want to make it cheaper how do we make it cheaper to people you know but how do you make it more accessible and how do you really talk to the people that because the fitness community like is like it's so segmented but actually people that are exercising have got gym memberships and doing all the apps like they're they're all kind of on their journeys but it's all the millions of people that are in their living rooms like still sitting down doing no exercise they're the ones i really want to get moving so we focus on that like how do you get the person from naught to one because that's the way bigger market than a fitness market if you know what i mean yeah and they're the ones that need need the support the most so we really focus on that the beginner you know the novice people getting into it for the first time i think that's very interesting because you've got people basically being super surfed haven't you you've got people with gym memberships or whoop memberships apple watches pelotons at home and they're getting everything and then you have people with absolutely nothing and those are the ones that you can have a far bigger impact on yeah that's who we think about a lot that's that's really the demographic what's the secret do you think to reaching them in this in the model model 10 years ago you just would go on instagram and there'd be 200 000 of them going yes i'm going to download your pdf right yeah i think it's well i think youtube's a great place because it's free content so i really push that a lot i think you know i do a lot of visits to schools i'm trying to get parents involved in like you know um events and obviously the runs i do i'm big i'm big into like just getting out people out walking and jogging and jeffing and stuff i'm like you know trying to promote that that any movement is good for you but you just got to try and just share the message that people don't need to have everything and those are times to get fit and but it is hard because people struggle their motivation don't they and you know you can say it all you want but a lot of people aren't going to take the message but you just have to hope that someone listens and someone gets moving today and on uh on youtube have you fallen into that world where you need to kind of reward the click and you the hook at the beginning and you need to retain the audience with regular like retention cues and things like that no i mean i just don't i just like i mean we tried obviously a few thumbnail things like some some thumbnail stuff graphically but i just it's really similar to supposed to work at a week sometimes it's um you know done but work at sometimes it's body weight but i like anything if i had someone who optimized it i'd but when i talk about the 25 people in the business only one of them works with me and that's the one of the camera like the videographer guy so So what I lack is the marketing around constantly filming new stuff and constantly generating ideas.

40:44So that's probably where we haven't invested as much because it really is, I don't know, I just feel I just need to be sharing things when I'm in the mood for it, when I want to. And if I had someone on the payroll saying, come, we've got to do this today, I'd be like, oh, it becomes work, doesn't it? That's the thing. And would you ever start to say to Rosie, look, Monday, Tuesday, I'm going to be in the office and I'm going to do some content that I know is going to bang on YouTube and this is going to be the new approach. Or is that just not... I should, but at the same time, I care about time with my family so much as well.

41:14I cook at home and I want to make my recipes at home because the food I share, that is the food I'm cooking my kids. I'm feeding them and I'm cooking, I'm sharing a video, or I'm filming a workout and I kick them out in the garden for after. I said, I'm filming now and they'll be out in the garden or they'll go out for an hour if they're going to the park and I'll just quickly film a workout. So I've integrated my business into my life. I could have been more successful, more famous, more wealthy if I had really been like that, you know, strategic, obsessive, you know, having a team, like Gary Vee just following me around all day, sharing everything, doing reality shows, doing every single TV show, you know, doing every brand partnership.

41:53Like, I've turned down so much over the years because A, I'm not interested in it really, but I'm also trying to protect what's important to me, which is time with my family. And you said something the other day about, you know, when people get old, what's the one thing they think about? it's always like the time with their families. And the only person that remembers how many hours you worked is your kids. They remember how many hours you'd have. Because, you know, some parents say, I didn't see my dad much when I was a kid because he was out working and stuff. And so I just value this time with my kids.

42:20It's the reason I homeschool. You know, I love school. I think it's amazing, but I just want to be with them as much as I can. Because the years I'm living right now with my kids, seven, six, three and one, these are the best years of my life, I think. I know I want to miss them and they're not going to be around as much. so I just protect that I've got a balance I know it will never be work isn't it is a priority but it's not the main focus you know what I mean that time and just being peaceful and not running around at 100 mile an hour all the time and like burning myself out I just don't I'll never be that guy if I wasn't when I was 20 or 30 I'm not going to be that guy now do you know what I mean so although I really want to grow things I'm also not willing to like sacrifice and you know lose time with my family and kids and stuff I said to you at the beginning that one of the big inspirations for me walking away from telly and creating high performance and trying to create this brand was you and what you'd done.

43:16And I think you've reaffirmed in me why you're so inspirational, because it's easy for someone to sit on a podcast like this and say things that are good for their brand. Or I want it to be organic. I want it to be family first. I want it to be free for people. I want to have as much impact as possible. I'm not interested in fame. It's not about ego. You can say all those things and then I see the real person because I see how many people you might have turned up with or I know what you do in your personal life and all these other things. But I sit with you and all those things you've said ring true because above all of building the body coach and growing the app and creating the contents on social media that you do, being at home with Rosie and your kids and homeschooling and cooking and playing in the park and going on bike rides beats all of that stuff.

43:59and in the modern world we don't give that any value because the value is on being a bro and the value is on being successful and having a nice car and all these other things so credit to you for having that as your North Star but keeping it as a North Star as you've got famous which is really difficult but equally as business has changed and evolved and you've had to take on various challenges because business is always a constant challenge that it's remained your North Star because that's, I think, when it's easy to go, actually, sod this, Rose, I'm not going to be here the next few weeks because I'm now going to focus on growing my business.

44:36So many people do that and you should really be proud of the fact you haven't done that. Yeah, thank you, mate. I mean, I won't pretend that being a homeschooled dad and being around the kids all the time is really easy. It's really stressful, but it's a job I've signed up. I wanted loads of kids. I want to be around. I know it's trying to teach them as hard, but it's also, I get a lot of joy from it. Do you know what I mean? So it's easy when that is your true motivation, you know, and it's what I love. I love being with them. I'm a happy son with my family, but, you know, you've got to sometimes travel, but I don't really go away for more than a couple of days at a time.

45:05I'm not, you know, I think, and I could have been, you know, I could have been a, I could have been a big TV celebrity probably if I wanted to go down that path and do all the reality stuff and, you know, have like cameras in the house all the time, but I'm really happy with my level of success. I just got the train from Virginia Watery. Yeah, so one person sat next to me on the train and she was chatting to me. But that's it. And I just, and one other guy stopped me, he said, just by the BBC there, he went, oh Joe, my little boy's doing your Activate every day. We record on CBeebies and so I had a little selfie but I've just got such a nice level of fame, you know what I mean, that it's perfect.

45:36And when I go to Santa Monica, no one recognises me. I'm in my board shorts, you know, we're skateboarding along the beach. Like, I just don't need any more, do you know what I mean? And obviously lockdown was the biggest moment in my career but I'm really content with what I've got. I just want to protect it I basically I want to protect what I've got I don't want to go backwards I don't want to pretend like I want to go backwards I want to just maintain what I've got in terms of time with my family in terms of you know having a bit of freedom and stuff and a bit of independence but I'm not so unbelievably driven by more success more fame more money like if I was you'd see me all the time and I'd be doing brand partnerships all the time I'd be taking all the money I could but I also believe in longevity I think I've got a long I've got a chance to have a you know a long a long career as opposed to like a short moment in time where you were you were doing good things but then you just kind of like sold out or whatever or people get disengaged and switched off i think it's so impressive and it's great in the modern era particularly to have someone sit in this podcast studio where most people sit here and say i want more i want to push harder more fame more success more money i know but i always think why like what and i do i do think when is when is enough enough you know i mean like i can't get into that mindset of like how people that do seem to have everything on the outside still are just pushing and pushing and pushing for more and more.

46:55And then when, you know, when, you know, when like if someone in your family passes away, it sort of makes you question like what's important, isn't it? And I think the universal thing that is important is our health, which I spend a lot of time trying to look after, and our family, our relationships, you know, that comes over business. But it's also amazing that I've got a business behind it because it's allowed me to have those things. I'm not naive. Like if I was still working as a personal trainer, you know I'd be up at 6am I'd be out of the house I'd be home late like you know I was very lucky that I could turn my love for fitness and food into a digital business and you know I just I just had an amazing moment in time where Instagram and YouTube and everything just picked me up at the right time but today if I started today I would never have the same there's no way I'd have the same career because it's just so much harder now isn't it 100 % well you've done it

47:48Thank you.