Man City Guilty of Premier League Charges: Former Chairman Speaks Out

0:00On Friday, one of the biggest stories in Premier League history broke. Manchester City reportedly found guilty on all but one of the numerous charges brought against them by the Premier League.

0:11Natalie Pirks: But as everybody knows, this is far from over. There's no punishment yet. City maintain the process is ongoing and appeal is expected. So I suppose the most pertinent question is, as everybody talks about this, what happens next? could City lose points could they be relegated could previous titles be affected and what does this all mean for the Premier League what a front two we have for you to war game this two people who can look at it from all sorts of different angles David Bernstein is former chairman of both Manchester City and the Football Association of course he helped rebuild City famously from the third tier David thank you for your time I know everyone's trying to talk to you so thank you for being here pleasure and he's back football finance guru Kieran Maguire who could help us understand all the money the roles and what the possible punishments could actually mean Kieran thanks for joining us again thanks for being right this is High Performance Business Game Changer in proud partnership with IFS it's interesting on Friday I would be interested very quickly to know as you found out about it sort of how your phone exploded but probably intrigued to know as we sit here at the beginning of a new week, 72 plus hours later.

1:31Natalie Pirks: Is your perspective exactly the same on it? Does it feel as seismic as it did on Friday? Or even more so now that the various ripples have been discussed? David, how do you feel about it as we start a new week and a few days have passed? Well, my feelings emanate from being both a sort of ex-chairman of the club, a fan generally, but above all a fan of Manchester City itself, which I've been for 70 years. So when I first heard this I sort of half expected it, but nevertheless it was a shock to hear. And one knew it was a very heavy issue, a major issue. As the two or three days have gone by, I think I'm even more aware now of the potential consequences, which are complicated and massive and of course depend upon the hearing actually formally that these 114 charges, the city have been found guilty of them and then what the appeal, well what the penalties will be and what the appeal process will be because I think the key thing now is the appeal and it would be extremely sad for everybody and for English football and the Premier League, if this appeal drags on for another year or two and compounds the large amount of time it's taken to get to where we're at.

3:03So I think the appeal, both in terms of its timing, its visibility, because I'm a little concerned that all this has been done behind closed doors. We don't even know who the parents were. And also, I'm also a little concerned, given the scale of this, It's the only thing about being too big to fail, that there's no interference from anywhere. And I'm not saying anywhere, I'm really thinking of government because it wouldn't surprise me to hear somewhere along the line that Abu Dhabi are a major trading partner, there's national interests involved, we don't upset the shakes too much and so on.

3:40And you end up with a bit of pressure being put on somebody by somebody else.

3:45Natalie Pirks: So carrying in the space of 72 hours, even somebody who understands the club inside out. It's expanded in David's realm. There's more questions than answers. Even for you as someone who makes their living as one of the world's premier football finance people, your head must be spinning.

4:06David Bernstein: Yes, trying to get a hold on everything. And of course, you get in contact with as many sources as possible. Certainly when I've spoken to people in Manchester, that the reaction was this was worse than our worst case scenario and we thought we'd modeled everything so so that was my initial reaction this is going to be far more severe then the press release or the two press releases which came from the club which were certainly fairly fairly confident and i think that's taken people aback um when i've spoken to people connected to other clubs the reaction has been for some clubs this is fantastic news for others we're fed up of it and we're just concerned about what the legal costs are going to be for us because ultimately those legal costs are going to be shared between the 2020 teams and some some clubs don't care because Manchester City is not a competitor if your objective is to finish 12th in the division so so that there's there's been a lot of reaction um and i guess the big issue is sort of twofold first of all who leaked and why there's been various people putting together forms of four dimensional chess as to this was this was a deliberate move by somebody so what was their motivation and then what is going to happen next because the complete radio silence from the premier League, and I appreciate that their hands are tied, means that there's a vacuum which is being created.

5:43David Bernstein: And that vacuum is being filled by people like myself and others who, we just want some clarity, like everybody. And it's dragged on too long already. I heard us respond to a couple of points Kieran's made. One, we'll go on in the club's response. You're right, Kieran. It was sort of confident. But they've been confident all the way through. There'd be no backing off. they'd be in your face confident and in a way was it Mandy Weiss-Davis all those years ago said well what else would they say so I put very little stall by that number one and number two slightly tongue in cheek it's all very well we talk constantly about controlling costs in football but there should be a limit on the legal costs because the legal costs which I'm guessing are probably over 200 million already if you take both sides costs heaven knows what is going to come to alter the appeal.

6:37Natalie Pirks: It's going to be crazy. Just so everyone gets pulled along, Natalie, with this. And a lot of the things we'll talk about, it's very quick to get into the weeds and that's where this issue is. So much of it is in the weeds. So just remind us of the dates and what we actually know at this stage. So I think the timeline's really important when we get into more of the minutiae. Yeah, so in a nutshell, most people know this story, But in a nutshell, the Premier League charged City with breaking numerous rules relating to financial fair play back in February 2023 as a result of a lengthy investigation after a whistleblower website and subsequent articles in a German publication called Der Spiegel.

7:20There are 115 charges against City or some call it closer to 130, mainly relating to the period of 2009 to 2018. but Kieran you can simplify this for us can't you because essentially what we're looking at here forget 115 130 we're looking at three major things aren't we

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8:47David Bernstein: That's right. The first accusation is that Manchester City have artificially inflated the money coming into the club by disguising money from the owner as sponsorship income. And the reason why that's important is that when you're doing your PSR calculations, it's based on revenue. Now, money from owners is not revenue. Sponsorship income is. So this helps that particular calculation. The second accusation is that City have been operating a system of parallel contracts where an employee, Roberto Mancini's name has been mentioned, for example. an employee has a contract from Manchester City Football Club to be the coach and also has a parallel contract from a company or a football club in Abu Dhabi paying effectively the same amount of money for three or four days teaching.

9:36David Bernstein: That reduces Manchester City's payroll, that reduces their losses, that increases their chances of being within the PSR limits. The third accusation is that Manchester City have not cooperated with the Premier League investigation. I don't even City would claim that they had tried to help because their argument from day one is that all of the evidence on the Premier League side is on the back of hacked emails and therefore that data is private and should not be included in the assessment of the commission.

10:09Natalie Pirks: So what happens next is also what is happening now. That's as big a question as anything as we try and speculate as to what is happening away from statements from owners and comments from ex-managers and sources, mainly from Kieran's little black book. David, you intimated or hinted that you don't quite buy Citi's bullishness at the moment. And I would concur with that. a good lawyer and said he have many would probably advise immediate defiance to continue along that path but behind closed doors David surely any good lawyer will do what any good lawyer will do they'll look at a percentage chance of success on appeal and if low or very low they'll look at securing the best possible sanction the best of the worst case scenario if you like so would you be, with all your experience, more inclined to believe that that's the process that may be taking place at the moment, that those conversations are happening?

11:10Oh, for certain. I mean, they've got the best lawyers, that's for sure, David Panic and others. So, yeah, absolutely. They've been discussing their tactics very, very carefully. They've got to go to appeal. I mean, there's no question about that. But whether, you know, with such an inclusive

11:33situation on the initial charges, whether they can ever win and appeal, I mean who knows there's no point in speculating about that, I think what's interesting is the next part of this conversation is to talk about the consequences on the various parties which perhaps Kieran and I can do this together but you start with the owners now very powerful owners bottomless pockets you know£100 million doesn't really matter it's more change for them but the owners have got into this but partly and maybe largely for international PR positioning and what has been a great PR success for 15 years is turning into a PR disaster potentially with all sorts I mean the implications as we'll come to at the moment about a fit and proper person and solve about running a football club are really fundamental.

12:30So where will they stand? Will they want to stay with this investment? Will they stay with the club? So that's obviously a huge question. We then come to the board of directors. The board of directors are responsible for all aspects of the running of the club. This was a public company and the board of directors would be shaking their shoes about where they might be going. And then the chances of surviving will be next to nil. So, you know, where do they stand? I mean, the City of Al found guilty ultimately on appeal of all this. And, you know, there was a long train of not much one or two, but 100 plus charges who have become guilty.

13:14And that is incredibly serious. So I would ask the question, you know, in football terms, are they fit and proper persons? What is your answer to that question, David? well if they're finally guilty of all those things the answer would certainly would be no you know I can't see in a way how they could continue in a situation like this so then you come and perhaps come to sponsors staff and of course in the end the players so there are massive implications and just one One question I'd like to ask Cairn, from something he was touching on just now, the double contracts. There could well be an issue with inland revenue about double contracts.

14:03I doubt if anybody with a second contract was paying tax in the UK for work done really in the UK. This is a show on, really. So, again, if they're found guilty of a double contract thing, does that give rise to potential tax exposures and issues with inland revenue? Well, it does, but no more than no less than anybody else who has a contract for employment.

14:31David Bernstein: So if I earn money from overseas and don't put it on my tax return, then I'm committing an offence. So it comes down to the integrity of the people involved. The worst, I think, that could arise here would be that Manchester City haven't paid national insurance. And we're not going to relegate a club for non-payment of national insurance for a few people. I honestly don't think the numbers would be particularly significant. David, you've obviously been in these boardrooms. You've been at Manchester City as a chairman. You've been at the FA as a chairman. And of course, you're a lifelong City fan.

15:03You've literally written a book about City. I'm suggesting you probably need to add another chapter now. But if you are sitting in that boardroom, and I'm sure you're glad right now that you don't have to deal with this, but what would you say is the best worst case scenario that they could possibly hope for right now? Well, the best case scenario is they win the appeal and a lot of this goes away. But if we're assuming for this conversation that they lose the appeal, the best case scenario for them then is a large financial penalty, which they'll be able to bear, I'm sure. Personally, I think that would not be sufficient.

15:46And then you get to the issue. But you see, it's so difficult to get beyond that because it depends on when this thing is concluded. I mean, if it was concluded today, I would say, well, probably the easiest thing is to deduct City a huge number of points, and I calculated it to be maybe 70 or 80 points, which means they will go down, but one division only. And that would probably possibly be the end of it. That's relatively simple. who would enable the league to continue for the rest of the season with 20 clubs still playing football, even though cities' plight would be confirmed in terms of relegation.

16:30But if this goes on for a year or two, it has become incredibly complicated. And one of the things that we've got to consider with the timing is, in a way, the compounding of these issues, because although the charges are between the eight or nine years, up to 2018, the effects of it, of course, go beyond that. And the team that the city have at the moment has been built on the foundations of a lot of the things, including this misbehaviour. So, you know, we talk about the things they won during the period of the charges, but you could argue that the stuff they won afterwards is also affected by all this.

17:12so it's a sort of open-ended problem and I think unless we know when the process is going to end it's almost impossible to decide which is the best way of penalising

17:25Natalie Pirks: I think that's such an important point I was very surprised in the initial reaction on Friday to how many people were staying within that bracket only which seems a little naive but I just want to park that for the conversation which I think is more football related and just stick to this best worst case scenario. Kieran, you try and find any type of common ground where a solution could be reached in sanction if it gets to that place. And who knows how the next 14 days are going to play out. Is there a motivation for the Premier League to be done with this? A motivation for Manchester City to be done with this?

18:06Natalie Pirks: And a motivation for fans and other clubs to be done with this? and I sort of file it under the pound of flesh theory, where nobody would be quite happy with the outcome, but everybody could live with it. David has alluded to a points deduction so vast, I would suggest 114 might be the gallows humour that everybody needs at the moment. But Ciarán, do you see any possible way of that pound of flesh being reached?

18:36David Bernstein: I think there is a potential solution to that. First of all, we've seen recently with the Chelsea negotiated settlement that you can have substantial breaches of the rules in the case of Chelsea over 70 and a financial settlement was made on the basis that if you took Chelsea's offences and added them up all together, there wasn't a breach of PSR. So therefore, a points deduction, which we have seen in the cases of Everton and Nottingham Forest and Leicester is not appropriate. Now as far as the accusations against Manchester City are concerned three of those involved breaking the PSR rules in seasons in which they were participating in the Premier League.

19:20David Bernstein: Given that they've lost 114 out of 115 let's assume that the one which they've not survived, the one which they've got cleared of is not one of those particular claims. So we've now got three seasons in which there's a breach and what you do is that you do an assessment using the criteria which has been established in the Nottingham Forest and the Everton cases to determine a points deduction and this is where you get your calculators out and this is where you start to to tot up a cumulative penalty. if it's 80 or 90 points and City are guaranteed relegation you have a further problem because we've already played five games this season against five opponents who knew that Manchester City were trying to win the Premier League title.

20:07David Bernstein: Manchester City's players will not be trying to win the Premier League title if they are guaranteed to be relegated even if they've got a chance of avoiding relegation they will be motivated so I think it's finding that sweet spot where the integrity of the rest of this season's competition. I don't want Brighton to win the Premier League this season and people will say, well actually that was the season when City got a points deduction and nobody really cared. So I think you've got to preserve two things, to give City a fighting chance, to give other sides a motivation when they're playing Manchester City and to give Manchester City that opportunity as well.

20:44David Bernstein: So that, looking at those three seasons, looking at the looking at the rationale for giving additional points deductions for aggravating behaviour and so on I think you can possibly come up with a number as for the fine the fines got to a be the Premier League's legal costs which we know are in excess of 50 million pounds plus something which is seen to be punitive and then we've got a separate discussion what's going to be the reaction of the other clubs who've been denied the opportunity to win trophies during the period 2009 to 2018 those clubs are currently taking counsel from their legal representatives just a very quick caveat picking up on that karen but just briefly is the possibility and some would say probability

21:30Natalie Pirks: when it comes to the various top clubs three or four clubs already stating that they're looking into seeking legal damages is in a strange way that maybe the biggest obstacle to find in a settlement that City and the Premier League can swallow because any admission of guilt outside of taking the appeal right to the end and pleading innocence opens the door for we just don't know how many clubs to seek millions that's a hard figure for any group of lawyers to put a number on

22:00David Bernstein: you're absolutely right Colin and I don't think that the settlement between the Premier League and Manchester City will be independent of any other behaviour unless the Premier League calls a meeting of the executives of individual clubs and says, look, City are willing to accept a 50-point penalty if you don't follow up on this. That means that City are out of Champions League places this season. It's going to save you a lot of legal fees. It's going to save City a lot of legal fees, but they can probably afford them better than most. um how about it and in addition we will give them some form of transfer ban for three or four years and remember we saw manchester city breach the uefa rules in 2013-14 which resulted in a transfer ban and a wage cap effectively being imposed on city and that did put the brakes on so again from a personally from a from a selfish point of view if i'm liverpool or arsenal and listening to that and we say well not only is City not going to be a problem this season potentially they're not going to be a problem for the next two or three seasons six into four doesn't go when it comes to Champions League places City are out of the equation it's now five into four happy days let's let's see whether it's and you know and clubs will be practical about this yeah they there's the emotional part and I've spoken to people connected to some of those other clubs and they've given me their emotional answer and then they say, well, actually, perhaps...

23:39David Bernstein: There's always a negotiated arrangement. So, Kieran, are you sort of assuming now for this scenario that you put on the table that there will be a negotiated settlement and this will not go to appeal? Well, it depends upon... First of all, we've not seen a tariff as yet. There's got to be another commission. which is so we're assuming that manchester city are going to appeal it could be they've been found guilty of 114 there is a settlement city city speak to their lawyers the lawyers say this is the best you can get it could be that the premier league appeals the verdict and we've seen that in the past so um we mustn't jump the gun and assume that this is coming from city the premier league has been disappointed with some of the settlements in the past and they've tried to take it further so City will be listening to their legal team and as we've seen in the cases of appeals against red cards historically when it's been deemed to be spurious or frivolous your two-match ban becomes a three-match ban so City have to bear that in that context as well as does the Premier League

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25:57I guess sort of legally, we should say, you know, Kieran, you mentioned that City, UEFA banned them and they were given a transfer ban, but they did appeal it and they did win that appeal with the Court of Arbitration for Sport. That's not an option open to them this time, I understand. But David, so many fans, I guess when this broke and over the weekend, they've been talking about the titles they'll get back. You know, Man United fans, Liverpool fans, all excited suddenly to get back to these titles. And Mourinho joked about it at the time, sort of very tongue in cheek. But does what happened with Rangers when the fact they essentially lost their position and ended up having to work their way back?

26:43but obviously you know they started again but they didn't have their titles wiped out do we see a sort of reluctance from football authorities really about retrospective title stripping is that a world where you just couldn't see it happening i don't know well the three possible is although the city just keep their titles the titles go to the runners up with these things, or City lose the titles, but no one they're sort of blank, they're asterisk years. Now I think, again Koon is, I think, stronger in the detail than I am, but I think when Juventus were relegated, there was a latter of those things, the last of those things.

27:24I think they lost their titles, but no one else got them. They were asterisk so to speak. It does seem a bit strange to me that 15 years or whatever later that Liverpool and Man Utd are suddenly coming to a title but they didn't win at the time. So I would see a bit of a pyrrhic victory in a way if that happens. So I don't know. I think if City did lose some of their title wins, probably the asterisk route is maybe the best one to go down.

27:58Natalie Pirks: And again, I'm not looking at cheap headline or anything. I'm just wondering whether you might have had a similar thought than I had. Because if I look at a league title that's lost by two points and the only team that beat you that season was Manchester City, as was the case in 18-19 with Liverpool, I can see, and I'm not saying it's legally right, I don't know, but I could see how that could end up in court. I could see it, right? Not taking sides. And I think we'd all agree with that. Yeah, indeed. I have an angel on the head of a pin sort of argument. I do find them spurious. And, you know, if you're winning things or winning something, you want to do it the right way, with a degree of honour and not sort of creep in through the back door.

28:45You know, if it was the other way around, if this was happening to Manistud United, I wouldn't be very keen on City being awarded something we didn't win 15 years ago. It was just, for me, it fundamentally feels wrong. So I can understand players who lost out or Pulis who lost out or whoever feeling that way. Of course, it's a very emotional matter. And of course, more seriously, people's careers and lives changed because of those losses. You know, we all know, was it Alex Ferguson who nearly left by and had to go with Stuttgart by the Man United, very close to it, but he won a match at the last moment to save his career.

29:25And look what happened. So, you know, careers and lives are made or ruined by these things. But unfortunately, I don't think everybody who's suffered because of what City of Right has done is going to get recompensed. So I think a lot of this is emotional. And I'm not being critical. I can understand people being emotional about things like this. But I think there's a limit to how many things can be sort of prepped through the back door. Kieran, sort of picking up on that emotion side of things, I've heard a lot of City fans over the last few days say, well, fine, we'll go to the Championship, no problem, and we'll win and we'll bounce straight back and all of those things.

30:08But what's in players' contracts? Do we expect there is a world where you could still see this man City side potentially in the Championship? Or is this worst-case scenario for City fans? because maybe some of those players might not stick around.

30:26David Bernstein: Well, there is probably a bad faith clause in the contracts because they have signed players on£100 million plus deals in the most recent window. But I think you also have to be pragmatic about it from Manchester City's perspective. They generated commercial revenue in excess of£300 million last season. They generated TV money by the time you put the Premier League deal and the Champions League together, that's a further£200 million. They're going to get a fraction of that next season. So therefore, they need to cut their payroll costs. We don't know whether Erling Haaland has a relegation clause in his contract.

31:05David Bernstein: I suspect he hasn't. So how can they, from a practical point of view, pay his wages? And also, we now are living in an era where the balance of power between club and player is not the same as it was 20 or 30 years ago. And we saw in the case with Enzo Fernandes himself, ironically, he made it clear he wanted to leave the club and he left the club. And that's the practicalities of modern day football. So any player that wants to leave will be given the opportunity to do so. And Manchester City, their main aim for two reasons. A, they're going to need the cash, but B, they also will need to satisfy the EFL's SCR rules, should they be relegated and end up in the championship next season.

31:59David Bernstein: They need to be satisfied as well. And when you've got a quantum decrease in broadcast and commercial revenues, especially if the owners walk away, as David was hinting at, the owners might say, our reputation's in tatters. I'm shake man, so I've only ever attended two matches. So it's not as if it's ruining a Saturday afternoon by not having that connection to Manchester City. And we also have some form of precedent with what we've seen with the Saudi Arabian Public Investment Fund and LIV Golf. If things aren't working, let's pull the plug. No, I think he was absolutely right. Player power is huge now, and players and their agents have ways of getting out of clubs if they want to, or a manner of ways, including even going on strikes, so to speak, and in exceptional circles like this, anything is possible.

32:55And alongside that, you've got the loss of sponsors because sponsors will certainly have reputational risk clauses in their contracts. There has to be a danger that they will not want to be associated with a club with 114 convictions approved.

33:13Natalie Pirks: I think that's really important. It feeds back actually to what David was saying at the start. And our main question, which is what happens next, Kieran, it's twice highlighted, unprompted, the situation with the owners, which we don't hear talked about as much in terms of the real possibility of them walking away. So if you're a City fan, even a City fan, and I've heard them on the radio, angry that the club have broken these rules, that they've done these things, which they will appeal against. But as it stands now, what they've been charged with, they're angry. Pragmatically, I'm not sure they'd want the owner to go away.

33:49Natalie Pirks: I think they'd want them to get their act together, but I don't think they want them to go away. And that leads on to the players. David, you know what it's like having a squad of players and their agents knock on your door. And now we fast forward all these years, and as Kieran just says, there's been an even bigger shift in player power. Let's deal with the reality of what happens next. I want to say on a Saturday afternoon, but as we know, it could be a Saturday morning, Saturday evening, Sunday morning, Sunday afternoon. But week in, week out, when Manchester City take to the field at any away stadium.

34:24Natalie Pirks: I would argue, with the best atmosphere actually being in the away ends these days, that they're going to get some of it in their own ground. You know the characters, David, the thick-skinned and the thin-skinned, the team player and the egocentric. How naive is it to think, even if City kick this can down the road beyond next season, that that squad will stay together this season? That's got to be a naive thought, hasn't it? if the can gets kicked down the road and for the moment things as they are, I really don't know, I wouldn't like to say it may be that one way or another you know, I mean the fans of City, they're wonderful fantastic supportive fans who in my period of chairman and we started to get the club back together we were in a third level of English football for one season.

35:23They were absolutely fantastic. How will they react? Well, it will vary, won't it? Some will gather behind the wagons, draw the wagons in, be even more passionate, don't want to know about this really. You know, it's our club and we've been persecuted and all that stuff. Others will be really concerned, upset, may demonstrate, who knows what might happen. Interesting, I had quite a big afternoon when I've seen it in the Sunday Times yesterday. but alongside it was an article by an old colleague of mine, Colin, I don't know his surname, the guy who wrote Man United, Wore My Life, Connie Schimler, who wrote Man United, and he, who was a passionate fad and then wrote Elf City and subsequently wrote a book called Man United, City were of my life, which really was a strong attack on the way the club had changed, really under taxing Shinamatra, had become governed by money, was unrecognisable as the sort of club it had been, and he didn't like that at all.

36:34And he said it rather emotionally, but I've got a degree of sympathy for it, that he'd rather be playing Ackridge or Barnsley or Barnett in a lower division, but with a clean bill of health and a cleaned-out situation rather than being struggling along with the Premier League with all this tarnished stuff hanging over them. Now, he's very emotional about this, and a lot of fans will feel the same way. But at the end of the day, the fan base will continue to support the club. That is for sure. You know, we're football supporters. We've got nowhere else to go. So we will stay with the club. but it's going to be a shaky road.

37:16And with the players, if nothing happens this season and things carry on, maybe the squad will hold together. I don't think it's impossible to tell.

37:26Natalie Pirks: Can you come in on that, Kieran? Because it's interesting that David is a fan and he knows more than me as a City fan. As I hoped they could stay together. Whereas in my head, the day-to-day, the week-to-week, I just can't see why agents wouldn't be saying and players rightfully a player would say I'm a joyful person I want to go out and enjoy my football every week I'm not from Manchester and and that moves good for me and to make a very serious point for the family as well who their kids will be tuning in to see you know their father getting roundly booed every week there's a lot to this, Kieran, that goes.

38:08Natalie Pirks: There's so many moving parts in terms of what happens next for Manchester City players.

38:15David Bernstein: I think we'll see that in Manchester City's next picture, which is a way at Anfield. There's going to be an interesting reaction there. If the players don't want it, they will let the club know, or their representatives will let the club know, and I'm sure the club will move on the players, because they don't want players whose character, you know being a pantomime villain is you know Enzo Fernandez loves it Robbie Savage loved it but it's I appreciate that that's not for everybody and and also as soon as fans of individual clubs spot a weakness in a player then then that is amplified and most players block out the noise you know when you talk to footballers the noises they're looking for the noises from their colleagues on the pitch in terms of what they should be doing.

39:05David Bernstein: They do have that ability to lock things out. You've only got to see, if you take Spurs, for example, they move to this fantastic new stadium and their home record is absolutely appalling. So you would have thought their home form would have improved. So that's not necessarily the case when it comes. And you look at many clubs, when they go to the big stadium, sometimes they will raise the game despite the ferocity of the Stratford end or the Cop or wherever it's going to be because they enter into that siege mentality. But that's down to the coach, that's down to the senior players, that's down to the characters of the individuals concerned.

39:45But Kieran, how realistic is it that we could still be sitting here having this conversation before City are about to win another title potentially in May?

39:56David Bernstein: There has to be a chance of that. the lawyers who are spoken to and many lawyers that speak to look say we don't want to say anything in public because there is so much unknown and you know i'm a casey i'm a i'm a professional and therefore they are reluctant i think the consensus is there's an assumption that the verdict will be out sooner or later it should not take that long for the assessment committee for want of a better phrase for them to convene listen to what the premier league and listen to see what Manchester City have to say, well, this is what we think the tariff should be. That decision should be relatively quick.

40:34David Bernstein: And we saw that in the case of Nottingham Forest and Everton and so on. If Manchester City appeal against that, again, shouldn't take a lot of time. And then my only concern is, are Manchester City willing to say, well, we've taken further legal advice and we believe we've got a case in the High Court, in which case everything starts all over again. And David, clearly these are really tricky times to be in the Manchester City boardroom, to be in the Premier League boardroom. But if you put your FA hat on for a second, what conversations are they having about the integrity of the English game? Well, that's a more different question to answer today than it would have been when I was at the FA because of the independent regulator.

41:23And I think the sort of dynamic between the FA, the independent regulator, and the Premier League. It's quite a complicated one. On a technical level, I suspect Kira was probably closer to this than I am. But I and others, I put a group together of eight of us, including the President and Prime Minister and Gary Neville and some eminent people. and we came up with the independent regulator recommendation which was taken up by Tracy Crouch and so on. So I've been involved with this regulator thing for a long while. I was a strong advocate for it. But I'm a little disappointed the way the mandates actually worked out.

42:10On the one hand, there's a number of responsibilities which should be given to the regulator, which I think really belong to the FA. They're not really what regulators should be focusing on. But this type of issue rests very much with the league and not with the regulator. And quite where the regulator will stand in all this, I'm not sure. I probably think that as certainly the assessment and licensing of clubs will be a possibility to the regulator, which includes the fit and proper person tests for well owners as well as directors that I think does fall so quite where the dynamic is between those various parties I'm not certain I mean if I was sitting in the city boardroom clearly I would be really really worried at the moment but I think as they've done you've got to be on the front foot you've got to proclaim that you'll get through this and of course you're innocent and we've got lots of elements to prove it and so on.

43:14But if this works out badly, as I said earlier, I think the days of the city board or certainly some of them are numbered.

43:23Natalie Pirks: The answer what happens next is just the unanswerable question, but it's been great to hear Kieran and David highlight, I suppose those key areas were the biggest questions of what happens next hangs over. I haven't thought as much about the ownership as Kieran has now made me think about and if you're a city fan a lot of this might hinge on that that might go near to the top of the list the appeal we know if that happens it's going to happen in the immediate future there's a limitation on that so that has to happen within a couple of weeks will they negotiate sanctions that they can all swallow after all it could be in the best interest of everybody and on the pitch and in the dressing room what happens next is intriguing so final question for you.

44:11Natalie Pirks: I won't ask you to make a punt. It's a way too serious issue for that. I just want you to step out of your rules and just take as wide an angled lens of this as you can. What damage has been caused to English football by this? I don't think we can fully assess that yet. It cannot be good for English football. Even last week before this happened, some senior bloke, I can't remember his name, from UEFA, was focusing on the huge amounts of money spent by English clubs in the transfer window, whether this was sustainable and so on. The war of money, I think, is a bit obscene. But I think we've seen in many big issues that the cover-up and the dealing with the issue is bigger than the issue itself.

45:07so if this is done with properly and efficiently and speedily and independently going forward then I think the damage can be limited to a fair extent. If this drags on and we end up in the worst case in the high quarters, as I say, could happen and so on, and this just drags on and gets more complex and messier, we have newspaper headlines every month or two about it, then I think the damage will be really considerable to English football and to the Premier League. So there was, I think, a big dividend to be earned by this being done with speedily, independently and efficiently.

45:49David Bernstein: I'm going to take an opposite view. I think football is so tribal, but ultimately all we really care about is the club that we support. I think the focal point will be on, OK, that's happened to City. Who's our next opponent? It's not going to stop me going from away matches. It's not going to stop me. How many people are going to cancel their subscriptions to Sky and TNT because of this? I think very few indeed. If you take a look at the international market, there is lying deceit and corruption in many countries around the world, and I'm including the UK in that, and it's just taken as part of day-to-day life.

46:25David Bernstein: If you take a look at American sports, and there's been plenty of scandals there, but the NFL is going from strength to strength, as is the NBA, as is golf. Cycling's managed to cope with the Lance Armstrong issues. Golf's managed to cope with Tiger Woods and so on. So football delivers eyeballs. It will continue to deliver eyeballs. Therefore, it will continue to deliver sponsors. I personally think, yes, this is something to focus on. Is it an embarrassing part of football? Yes. But cheating takes place every single match. And yet we still watch it. We still watch happens on the pitch. So the fact that we've got cheating taking place off the pitch, is it actually any worse than some of the misdemeanors that we've seen over the years?

47:10David Bernstein: I'm not so certain. It's poor performance and you expect better from executives and being lied to by executives. and that's everybody from staff, from fans to the auditors potentially have been lied to. I know from this, from my point of view as an accountant, they'll be hacked off. But as far as the fans are concerned, we'll keep going, we'll keep buying the merch, we'll keep buying the tap and we'll keep buying the pies. If I may say, I think it's a very pragmatic, maybe slightly stint little view of life. Of course, football will continue and the Premier League will continue. and fans will keep watching, even City fans will keep watching, of course it will, but that wasn't quite the question you asked.

47:54You asked about reputation and so on. And I think I look back on what happened in Italy over the years. Italy was mired in corruption and all sorts of problems and the reputation of Italian football and the quality of the league did suffer. And maybe it's continued to suffer, but I don't think Italian football has ever been quite what it was. and I think this is so substantial and as I say, if it continues in a wrong way we'll continue to sort of mar English football and I think, of course, English football will survive and I will always follow it and fans will always follow it but in terms of the quality, the reputation, the integrity and I don't think you can compare this to what goes on on the pitch which I mean, probably, he was absolutely worried, of course, there's all sorts of funny things going on in the pitch every match, but that's not the same as much Mr.

48:52Bieler of this sort, by the most successful club in the English football for the last 20 years. My club, I'm sorry to say. I mean, at the end of the day, my emotions, my feelings about this, I would say, are embarrassment and anger, I think, of what has happened to my club. Well, listen,

49:12Natalie Pirks: just before we let you go um because the story's evolving all the time this has been released two hours after we record it so if you've just seen it pop up we recorded it literally a couple of hours ago just want to check with my number one source here liam gallagher on social media to make sure that there's no updates at all no liam hasn't said anything we're fine i think that's pretty much he seems to know more people than anybody else although we couldn't read out any of his messages. But let's see where it goes. And just Colin, just one final thing, because I just don't think that you and I quite have the depth of pocket that the owners of Manchester City have.

49:50So just on that point, to say and reiterate again, they've always said that they deny these allegations. And so when it comes to cheating, we're talking about alleged cheating until we know more.

50:03Natalie Pirks: Yes, we're talking about, of course, them being charged with 100 and 14 counts and having the right to appeal absolutely thank you David Kieran just your inbox is full of people asking to chat you can't say yes to all of them you said yes to us and we really appreciate that and David I'm with you from the point of view of Man City fans and separating that and those memories from what's happened in that boardroom so I absolutely have sympathy with that when I hear from a proper fan so thank you very much and both of you we'll probably be ringing you in about seven minutes from now because there's something else to talk about, okay?

50:41Okay, enjoy it, thank you. Thank you.

50:44Natalie Pirks: Thank you for listening to this episode and of course we'll have another one for you on Wednesday but this is our Man City latest. Thanks Ciarán, thanks David, thanks for listening.