The Drink Startup Taking On Coca-Cola & Red Bull

0:00Today we welcome Olivia Ferdy to share with us the room where it happened. Olivia is one of the co-founders and the CEO of Trip. one of the largest privately owned soft drink companies in the UK. They hit hundreds of millions of revenue every year and their rise has been astronomical. In association with IFS, it's time to take a trip to the room where it happened with Olivia Ferdy.

0:25I would like to start in our living room where we had our kitchen table, where things really got going at trips, where the initial idea came about. It's where my husband spent a lot of time recovering before our wedding, which is where the kind of genesis of the whole idea began. So I think that's where we'll begin. And that's very interesting because, as you know, on this show and on High Performance, I've spoken to many, many people that have done many incredible things. And taught a lot of ACLs, I'm sure. Well, the point is, so often these amazing things that happen actually come from a negative, from a difficult moment.

1:00and this understanding that, you know, we have this idea that things have happened to me. We need to reframe it as things happened for me. And it's a very, we should absolutely talk about the fact that this injury to your husband happened for you and him because arguably if that hadn't happened, there is no trip, right? So what did he do? Is it a sports injury? So you tore his ACL playing. He's not a professional athlete, just Sunday football hungover in his thirties. Tore his ACL, needed knee surgery seven weeks before we were due to get married. We were told we have to cancel the wedding. He wouldn't be able to walk me down the aisle.

1:29I'm obviously not best pleased hobbling through the door on a Sunday being like I think it's broken and essentially we like desperately tried lots of different things to try and get him back on his feet it was seven weeks to go and on trying lots of different ancient ingredients herbal ingredients botanical ingredients basically had this transformational recovery experience seven weeks after the surgery he was not only walking me down the aisle but dancing all weekend long I'm on his shoulders it was an Irish Lebanese wedding in Italy so you can imagine lively it was amazing And we were blown away by those effects.

2:01And when we got back, we were thinking, what the heck happened? How did you have this miraculous turnaround? And we dove into researching some of these ancient ingredients, many of which have been around for thousands of years in ancient healing therapies, everything from CBD, which was in our original range, ginseng, L-theanine, chamomile. And we were getting very excited about what we were reading and learning that not only are these amazing for recovery, but actually people day to day can use them for stress and well-being. But no one was talking about them. They weren't available on the high street.

2:32They weren't available in a product or brand that you felt comfortable reaching for. And that's when we thought, well, why can't they be in a delicious, convenient format that we want to reach for? You want to have on your nightstand. You want to have in your favorite bar. And we thought, I can't think of anyone else in my life that wouldn't benefit from something that helps take the edge off in a natural way. We've got to do this. We've got to figure it out. Why Like, don't we just make a drink? So you had an idea. Yeah. And what I think is interesting here is that so many people get to the end of their lives and go, I had an idea for Uber.

3:04I had the idea for Deliveroo. I had the idea for you name any business. And actually, what people need to understand is having an idea is not unique. Lots of people would have tried some nice botanics and gone, oh, this would be lovely in a drink. That's as far as it goes. Yeah. So I'm really interested in the next step because that's the step that so few people take. Yeah. When did you go, actually, let's quit our jobs and actually do this thing for real? So we got married in August 2018. Yeah. That Christmas, we were like, this should be in something that we can access. How do we figure that out?

3:35What does it look like? We had the branding and packaging by May of the following year. We launched at the end of that summer. So it's less than a year from idea to launch. And in terms of the steps, when you're like, how did you think? I think the speed at which we went really guided by I'm a customer, I'm a consumer, I'm looking for this sort of thing. It doesn't exist. Where do I go? I've gone to my local supermarket. I've gone to my bougie food store, health store. It's not there. Why isn't it there? Working very quickly through those pain points of looking for something that didn't exist was a very clear kind of North Star, which I think having both of us so intertwined in the kind of origin experience, the wedding, you're surrounded by loved ones.

4:14It was an emotional moment when you think you're going to have to cancel something you've been looking forward to. You're surrounded by friends and family. Everyone was so overjoyed that we can get together and not cancel. I think that supercharged both of us thinking so intently about how do we bring this to everyone? All our friends and family would love something like this. How do we make it happen? And it was kind of feeding off each other. And I think, yeah, it just went so fast. In business, and for people listening to this who would love to emulate some of your story, How important was that North Star?

4:44Was that purpose element? It was everything. Everything for anyone listening that's launching a business and has a personal experience or purpose behind what they're trying to build. That is so core because we were talking about that on the way in. There are so many difficult moments when you're building something from scratch. Nine times out of 10, you'll be told absolutely no way. Not possible. Doesn't exist. There's no market for it. So you need to really strongly believe because you're creating and building something from nothing. You're pushing through boundaries. You're pushing through walls and doors that are closing.

5:11so having that strong sense of purpose is essential I think for your spirit to keep going and also for clarity around quick decision making when people say oh there isn't a customer for this it's a person that doesn't exist well if you can reference a few things quickly from your own experience you know you're already halfway there okay so you've you sort of had the the lightning bolt moment of we could do this yes you then have everyone going well actually it's not that easy maybe you shouldn't bother we didn't have that before we launched right we launched that's important. I think that's an important distinction.

5:43No one said you're absolutely bonkers before we launched. Okay. But your husband walked away from his job. I mean, surely someone in his office went, you're going to do what? I don't think they did. You'll meet him. He's very persuasive. He makes you think anything is possible. I think that's a big part of the dynamic as well. It's very infectious. It makes you very excitable. And the idea that, well, we can figure it out. So did you have to raise money at the very, very beginning to make this thing happen we put our savings into that first production and what was that tens of thousands or yeah like 20 20 to make the first 20 000 pounds and you it's probably 20 000 to get the first amount of product that's probably only 7 000 cans it's not a lot but it's enough to send samples to people it's enough to get a good flavor of product market fit you do market stalls you do um customer events where you get feedback and that kind of thing probably 5k on branding and packaging.

6:39That was the main bulk. Making the product, that's the thing. You've got to make the thing. So who does it ring, though, to turn your idea into reality? What I will say is a lot of Google and asking questions. I think not having a network meant we were just bouncing off each other. And even if you didn't know who to ask, you know, for that first production run, you don't have enough cash to do a massive production run at some of the most esteemed production houses in the country. So there's only a handful of guys who are going to put your brand new product down their line and only make you 7 ,000 cans.

7:10There's probably about six of those in the country. You call every single one. You go visit every single one and you beg them to take your recipe and put it down their production line. And not charge you so much that you can't afford to do it. Yeah, yeah. I also love the fact that you're the CEO, right? Yes. Because you and your husband went at this together. Yes. And I reckon 15 or 20 years ago, it's very much the husband who is the CEO of Trip because that's the way the world was. and I talk often about my daughter Florence on this show she's 12 and is she loves dancing and singing but in the last year she's decided not to go to Italia Conti but to do a business course when she gets older because she loves exciting she listens to this show she loves the entrepreneurship thing but what's interesting for her is there's not a single part of her brain that thinks can I do it though as a woman and I think that's what a really crucial part of your story is that you are a true female leader in this space I'd love to know what your lived experience is of being a woman that has done these things?

8:04I would say it comes to having an amazing team around you. So I am the figurehead. I am the leader, but there is an incredible amount of support I get from brilliant team members, husband, co-founder. We talk about absolutely everything. You know, we're not in silos, even though we might not see each other throughout the day if we're in different meetings. You know, we talk through everything. He'll think, how would Liv approach this in a meeting that I'm not in i'll be thinking because we know each other so well so well that i'll be thinking that and using that superpower of knowing other people so well and how to amplify my leadership through their skills as well i'd say as a woman in fmcg which is food and beverage we're actually quite lucky i would say there's more at least in the challenger brand space the heritage obviously they don't necessarily have female leaders but the food and drink space is pretty good in the uk in terms of female representation it could definitely be doing more i typically would walk into a room and have to be convincing the junior buyer if she was a woman would totally get that there's stress and overwhelm and the mum of three doing the school run needs a trip the um woman studying for her exams at university and doesn't want another red bull needs a trip the nurse about to do a night shift needs a trip they would totally get that but typically the decision makers and a lot of corporates are older white males and that has skewed I think the consumer landscape for way too long so being able to be visible and represent the needs of a wider part 50 % of the consumer base I think is long overdue and something that we're really excited about especially in those conversations we talked about where people say oh people aren't stressed they don't need this yes they do they just don't have the vocabulary or the confidence to talk about it but they want this product.

9:50If you can just take a couple of seconds to subscribe, then of course you can get each episode directly to your inbox. And honestly, for you to subscribe, it makes such a difference to our show. It means we can grow and it means we can attract more incredible guests like George Heaton, Rory Sutherland or Richard Branson to come and join us. And don't forget, you can also check out my Room Where It Happened newsletter. Just track me down on LinkedIn. Who came up with the name Trip? So my husband and I came up with it. It's kind of a play on words, something a bit playful. It's a sound when you open a can.

10:19It's about reclaiming. If we had a can. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I can just about get that. Yeah. Yeah. And we wanted something that was kind of exciting and conceptual. We didn't want it to be literal around ingredients. What I'd found when I was a customer looking for this sort of product, a lot of health or better for you options were very kind of medicinal branding or ingredient led, everything just called like focused drink or calm but having something a bit more exciting where you can take a trip to find your calm take a trip to vacation state of mind you know bring customers something more aspirational and interesting than just medicalized or ingredient based it was always about that feeling of the brand and this this is marketing at this point right and and i actually think that we went through a really interesting phase around this time pre post covid where brands stopped telling you so clearly what they were and they had kind of slightly abstract names which allowed you as the consumer to try and work out what it was for yourself.

11:19So were you working this out for yourself? Where was the marketing expertise coming from? I think when you launch something, you're everything, right? You're the marketing expertise. You are the customer. You're the guinea pig. You're customer service. You're finance. You're everything. All before lunch, you're figuring it out, right? So there was definitely no marketing expertise. I guess between us, I think we have quite a strong sense of what we like and how things that we like make us feel, make us feel calm or, oh, this feels premium or special. And I think that was something we really wanted to emphasize.

11:53This isn't niche. It's not othered. It's not something to be intimidated or embarrassed about. We wanted to empower people to reach for something that was healthier and looked as good as it made you feel. There was a huge disconnect in the market in my impression between things that were healthier and made you feel good and how they looked. and you know that kind of farm shop cutesy craft aesthetic or heavily medicalized slightly intimidating confusing information just didn't match up to us it's like why couldn't it be a cool brand so you've spoken a few times about this moment of calm yeah have you looked at why we are also desperate for this moment of calm in the modern world definitely it's constantly evolving i think the beauty of social media and connecting everyone all over the world comes with its own challenges that impact mental well-being.

12:40I think being on our devices, work has taken on a different dynamic. We all work from home and then different people have different experiences, feeling that need to constantly be on. I think pressure in general, the sense of comparison has accelerated, I think, with being online. The amazingness of the internet means we can all Google how to start a business and how to make a drink and it's amazing, but it brings that sense of pressure so I think we're going to continuously see modern challenges not just on the macro political landscape you know economic times are harder than ever not just for entrepreneurs for everyday people trying to make a living and supporting those choices or micro moments I think is very important and that's why we focus so much on the single can and the drink because it's really important that you get that full trip experience in what is the most accessible format and when I say accessible it's by price point so you can find it in the meal deal it's obviously like£1.50 in the meal deal it's better for you it's easy to understand you put that can in front of anyone any country any language they know exactly what to do and that format the simplicity has opened up this world of natural ingredients and conversations around how you're feeling in a way that I hope empowers a lot of people globally as we all try and navigate what is going to continuously have challenges it also felt really high-end I remember when I first saw it um I was at Soher House oh yeah on holidays my kids were at Soher Farmhouse and they saw this and I remember um that they poured it into a glass and I asked if I could have a look at the can yeah because I just thought it looked like it just looked high-end yeah and I think now it's really normal to see high-end drinks in a can I think it was I don't think I was seeing many at that time which is why I was intrigued by it.

14:25No, Sewer House, they've never had a can served before. Normally they serve it with the high ball glass, with ice, with the can on the table. There are Michelin-style restaurants, there are nightclubs, Annabelle's, Sewer House. They've never served a can on the table before. Even restaurant chains like Cop Brasserie sells Trip. And if you go there and you order a Diet Coke, it comes in a glass bottle. And all these places, it's glass bottles. And Trip is one of the first cans to ever break through. And did you say to them, if you do this, I want you to put the can in front of the consumer? I wanted them to for a few reasons.

14:54One, obviously, for the brand exposure so that people, I find, I don't know if you see this, if you go to like a house party or a restaurant, if someone's holding something and it looks yummy or interesting, people say, oh, can I get one of those? You don't even need to know what it is. But I think what we're seeing in those early days of social media is that everybody was taking photos of the can and just whacking it on their feed or on their stories and telling their friends about it. It was insane. This incredible organic reach of just real people telling stories about how they found this product.

15:23and that early sign of people just taking photos of it was like okay people people feel something about this people are connecting with how it looks so it'd be great if we get it on um on the table when it's served and obviously with all those ingredients as well what is nice in a restaurant environment is people have a little bit more time to read a menu or kind of connect with a brand when you're doing the weekly shop it's a bit more what do i need get it done transactional so the idea if you have it served that they can you know read the pack check out your social or whatever else and kind of connect in a more deep way but we just wanted people to see other people drinking it as well yeah i think it's a really good lesson for people about paying attention to the small details because actually what you could have done is just said to these restaurants look the drink is amazing it really will make people feel better yeah it also tastes delicious but because you focused so much on every tiny money even the way like i remember the can didn't feel shiny like most cans it was a matte yeah it was a sort of matte finish yeah and so therefore then these things don't happen by accident so these restaurants and these clubs and stuff that were I mean Annabelle's is an amazing example that we putting your can on the table yeah the only as much as it's a nice thing to do for you the only reason they would have done that is because they also wanted the reflected glow of something that looked as good as one of your cans totally it's a partnership and we are obsessed with every detail of a can like you said that tactile feel we used to notice that people would pick them up and then be turning it around in their hands without even realizing, you know, that map feel.

16:50Everything from the size of the bubbles, the aroma, the way the layers hit you. I mean, I can talk to you for hours about the size of the bubbles, the speed that they dissipate. What's that thing that you did that you think most people wouldn't have noticed but you're really proud of and it was like a proper little marginal game? I mean, I feel like all of it on the can. I would say the front of can. Do you know how many people since launch have been like, there's not enough information on there, it's not clear enough. Why is the pink one, Elderflower? You know, everyone says you need to connect colour with, why isn't there a big peach on the peach one?

17:21I get it. But sometimes customers are looking for something a bit different. And to your point about partnership, you know, those incredible venues, we were so lucky to get to use to tell a story to our customers or our new customers. It was, this is a, you know, if we launched in Selfridges, it was Trip is a fashionable drink. If we launched in Soho House or Annabelle's, oh, it's a trendy, you know, flavour forward experience. and they were using us to talk to, well, growing trends about obviously having alcohol alternatives, better for you options, but also we were blowing up on social. So they were sort of tapping into that as a, okay, well, if you talk about our venue on socials and people know they can get it here, that kind of exciting newness, I think, was a big part of it as well.

18:04I saw online that you got Joe Jonas as an investor. Yes. Did you actively go and seek high-profile investors or did that just kind of happen? Kind of just happened. So the thing about a consumer brand is a lot of these people of customers and then if they post about it you obviously dm them like love that we'd love to send you more conversation starts i think with the high growth as well a lot of these ambassadors we've got joe jonas alessandra ambrosio ashley graham experts in their own fields and they see sort of the high profile growth journey and it was very exciting kind of organic conversation about how can we get more involved, more meaningfully.

18:40And yeah. So when did you get the sort of feedback that people like this, like this has something going for it? As soon as we launched, as soon as we started sending out packages. And where did you launch? So we launched, oh, I laugh because we launched a website in August 2019 that like zero people came to because what we realised is when you launch a website, you need to send traffic there, do a bit of paid advertising, which we couldn't do at the time. No money. Well, we couldn't because of regulations. so we couldn't advertise so like alcohol we couldn't advertise our products on the internet because of the ingredients so no google search no amazon ads no facebook ads tell me the moment that you realized that was the case where you've got this great plan then we'll advertise it then you get a phone call or a letter and no you won't have it i mean luckily we'd launch a product without any adverts please luckily we'd launched in retail at the same time so places like um high end kind of planet organic selfridges was in september 19 so we always knew we wanted to be available in lots of different places and ultimately online is amazing it's great to be able to connect with your customers have an open dialogue and it's very sexy like d2c but ultimately where are you in your thirst you're often somewhere you want it now so having that retail piece was really important so the storytelling that we were saying earlier about what does selfridges tell you about trip what does planet organic tell you about trip it's healthy it's premium that kind of thing so having both those was really important to kind of set the scene and ultimately be available when people were in a moment of stress or wanted a drink.

20:05But those early customers, so that summer, we started sending packages out to retailers, and this is just cold calling. You know, we'd find a name, we'd find like 15 email addresses, ending in like at selfridges.com. We would send hand packages to the offices, turn up, try and get meetings, walk the shop floor, try and say, oh, is the general manager in? You know, anything like that, anything you can imagine. You kind of just follow what seems logical and common sense, but maybe sounds a bit crazy. and that was a really great indicator of they're excited about this they think it tastes amazing and they're obviously experts and then from there we were also doing a lot of customer initial I guess you'd call it testing but what we wanted to do is just get it into as many hands as possible talk to people be like what do you think of it how does it taste how does it make you feel would you tell that your friends about it that kind of thing so we were doing things like um there's events that they used to have in London like vegan nights London loves brunch this is like a weekend at Truman Brewery and we'd have a stand, dad and I selling it.

21:02And my brother-in-law, James, who's married to my sister, would come along as well and help us. We'd literally carry, so you have these stands and you're about inviting customers over, making them drinks, getting them excited. We used to take my pictures from home, my plants from home to decorate everything and have to carry it all back on like bikes or taxis. So yeah, my brother-in-law was helping with that and then he was our first um employee the following march like six months in so when did you decide to quit being a lawyer so i quit just as we launched in retail so september 19 so i was doing it on the side with my job yeah i walked into my boss's office we had a sabbatical where you could take time off so i said i'm going in i'm going to ask for a sabbatical and we've been at my brother's wedding the weekend before and i was with my sister james my husband dan and my sister was saying, you've got Selfridges, it's about to launch.

21:55I think you have to go for it. Like if you don't do it now, someone else will. And that just made me feel quite protective for the first time. Like we have this great idea, let's go for it. So I walked into my manager's office and asked for this sabbatical, said, can I have three months off? My husband's doing this thing and we need to work on it together. He said, yeah, okay, sounds good. Just keep in touch type thing. Walked back to my desk, sat down, got straight back up and said, oh, sorry, do you have another minute and i was like i'm i'm actually not coming back as soon as i sat down i realized i didn't need a sabbatical let's just be clear this is this is going places and i'm going for it i wonder why you got that moment of clarity as you sat down i don't know did you already want to tell him you weren't coming back i hoped i wouldn't be coming back but the logical lawyer brain says don't put all your eggs in one basket don't put all your savings with your new husband into a venture that doesn't exist with no experience, keep that gentle illusion of a sabbatical in mind and keep your options open, go back to the corporate career.

22:53This might just be a short-time thing. That's the logic. That was probably my parents thinking in the back of my head. I think it's important you didn't give yourself a plan B because I think if you do, it means you don't quite go for plan A as much as you could. No way. You've got to have skin in the game, right? Yeah. And both of us work very well under pressure. So I think having that, we're all in was important. Now, the crucial moment here is that you made that decision to walk away because you had this Selfridges deal. So when did the Selfridges deal come about from you walking the floor with these early 7 ,000 cans?

23:24Well, actually it was a few things. And this, I guess, for the audience is important to always be open. You might have a plan. So we sent the samples to the head office. We'd obviously walk the floor to see how things were merchandised. Each store does things differently, trying to see what trends they're backing and what kind of area this could suit. And then it was when we'd done one of these events, the Vegan Nights I mentioned, which was like middle of nowhere in Shoreditch. I can't even believe we used to do those. But at one of those events, one of the ladies that came up to our stand and was enjoying the product was someone who said, oh, I'm a PA to someone that works at Selfridges.

23:59You should send this in. Here's my email. And we did, obviously. So we'd done all those things ourselves. But meeting this person was completely serendipitous and important. We strongly believe it's not one email or one care package that finally gets through. We love to have lots of different angles as a way to connect with a brand or a partnership. So that for sure would have made an impact as well. So Selfridges call. Yeah. And what do they say? We'd love to have all the products. We're really leaning in. This is a huge area for us. I think it was super exciting. Lockdown hit about three months after that.

24:33So we had all these plans to do a pop-up and have a big physical experience. and we quite quickly shifted to online so they pivoted online for one of the first times so they put our products online in gift boxes in lots of wellness areas they put it with their sleep products with their pajamas you know they were they're a very innovative partner they think quite unusually did you let them do that or were you on the other end of the phone going how about as it's good for getting you to sleep you put it with your pajamas yeah you couldn't keep us away we constantly come up with you know opportunities or new ways of thinking if they say oh it's not an energy drink so it can't sit with energy drinks i say you're right but energy drinks do get you a bit hyped up don't they sometimes you probably want to reach for something to kind of counter that rebalance um maybe it should be next to energy drinks you know conversations like that constantly questioning and pushing the boundaries of it i guess and this i talk to my kids often about this because they still get the messages often from school you have to go and get a job and be employed yes and i talk to them so much about if you can find something that you're passionate about yeah there is no going to work and coming home because the lines between work and play are completely blurred totally agree you can be working in a bar with your friends at 10 o 'clock on a sunday night because you're talking about trip yeah yeah do you know what i mean it's definitely and that's such a lovely way to live to never feel like yeah i've got to put on a lanyard and check in exactly at 9am for a boss to tell me i'm two minutes late the experiences we've been so lucky and privileged to have because of trip i mean they're just crazy whether it's Sunday night drinks with friends it's going to meet a hotel in Ibiza that like to stock trip yeah okay I'll come meet you I'll do a training we've been at Oscars parties I've been to Downing Street I mean it's bonkers and I think getting to do it with your best friend and constantly be kind of excited and inspired by things around you whether it's on the journey here I'll be thinking about going for dinner looking at the menu getting inspired shopping, buying fresh ingredients, thinking about new flavours, you know, it's all around us.

26:33I think that's the really fun thing about a consumer brand as well. It touches so many parts of your life. I never realised how great it would be, not only that someone opens their fridge at home and they see trip, but they walk the dog, it's in the coffee shop, they head to the office, it's in the canteen, they go to their favourite bar, it's on the menu, it's in their favourite pharmacy, beauty store, all these things you know you're just touching people's lives and that is such a privilege to think that you're connected in so many ways to how people feel throughout the day and i'll tell you what it's a good job you were quick with growing trip because i think if you were six or eight months later then it would have been a real challenge hundreds of brands thousands maybe in functional covid was tough yeah but equally gave us an opportunity which i think with daniel and myself were very quick to think um not just things happen for a reason but you've got to make your own luck and arguably covid was really tough there was shortages of everything cans but if you were bigger at that time you could have died the fact that you were actually a scrappy startup yeah meant that's how you got we didn't have overheads and things like that we didn't have any employees um family until 2022 really 21 21 but because everyone was at home they were on their phones all the time they were stressed and anxious and talking to their loved ones about mental well-being and how they were feeling and arguably it was a time that accelerated a big part of the conversation around daily mental well-being and that being less taboo and a big part of the trip ethos is to you know de-stigmatize these conversations and give you something that you feel is aspirational to hold at a party when people like oh why aren't you drinking it's like oh what are you drinking that's cool that's the nice thing about trip it could be your replacement for a post-gym workout drink it could be a replacement for a glass of wine yeah replacement for a morning coffee that's that's where i think you've stumbled on designed to be all day every day there you go yeah um bills yes we're in the throes of covid at this point it's 2020 no one knows whether restaurants are open or closed how are they open for how many people can eat together i don't even begin to know how you convince bills in that state to take a chance on this drink yeah well we actually got the listing in january before the first lockdown right and that was pure chance and good fortune.

28:46And again, you make your own luck, but you have to be open to putting yourself out there. That was just sending an email to their generic customer email. There's like a feedback form on their website. And I just filled in the form saying, I've got this product. I'd absolutely love to speak to anyone that works at your bars. And some angel of a customer service person decided to forward it. That is a brilliant story. And they forwarded it to the bar manager of the whole group. And within a week, the bar manager said, I've got a board meeting with the new menus on Friday, bring your product in on Wednesday, I'm going to taste it and we're going to decide.

29:17It's like, oh my gosh. So we got that first forecast through. I still remember all the people that work there that we still work with today. You know, this huge forecast. I think we were calculating like 300 ,000 cans for the first order. We obviously don't have 300 ,000 cans, but that's a tomorrow problem. We're very much like, say yes and deal with it. So lockdown didn't happen until the March. So I don't think we even got much out onto the menu or into the store. Maybe it was out for like a week or two before everything closed down. That was such a difficult time for hospitality, that uncertainty.

29:50Because a lot of people suggest to launch a brand in what they call the on-trade. On-trades like bars, restaurants, hotels. Because it's more experiential, you've got more time to look at a menu, try new things. You're in a different mindset. And that's where a lot of brands, especially premium brands, launch before supermarkets. supermarkets and actually because of the lockdown we pivoted lent much more into direct to consumer and we went into supermarkets quite early on because it was the only place people were allowed to shop but people were stressed people needed this product we thought how can we get this product into people's hands at a time where people are worried about their loved ones they're worried about health actually that i think it must have been may or something the only places that were open restaurants were still closed but supermarkets were open and deliveroo was working and expanding and we called Deliveroo and we said I think you need a trip store but you're not a restaurant why would we have a trip store because people are at home they want their trip immediately they want to take the edge off they're looking to wind down in the evenings we're seeing on our direct consumer that people are ordering more either that 2 p.m slump when they're looking to kind of reset and have something instead of another coffee or in the evening instead of a glass of wine we really think you should take a chance and make a trip store so we got all the pre-packaged product in our living room piled up against a wall they sent us a delivery receiver it goes like da ding da ding and we turned it on and we were making thousands of pounds a week on the delivery store and it was one of the first non-restaurants cans coming out of your living room yeah cans in these i don't know if you've seen them online six packs it's beautifully packaged sealed six packs we had them all piled up i'll show you the picture up to the ceiling and the we'd wake up in the morning, go to our laptop, turn on our Deliveroo and it would start pinging and drivers would come to the flat.

31:39And we thought if we could show them how much people want this with just one store, it would be a great use case to then say, well, I think we need 20 stores up and down the country, put them in your other locations and see how it's grown from there. Wow. So as well as being scrappy and fighting for every opportunity that's coming your way, either you or your husband or both of you are also, you also think in a really kind of smart in a really smart way. That's very kind. I think it's sort of a bit bonkers and a bit practical. So a lot of people would be like, oh, it can't be done. No one's ever had a Deliveroo store in a living room.

32:15But things were changing. You know, people were at home. We were bored. We were like, let's open a little shop. There'll be something interesting to do throughout the day. And I think it's just questioning why things can't be done, which we're quite into. Then there's the moment of growth, right? Yes. So restaurants start to open again. Yeah. You're in supermarkets. which again, we have to talk about a lot because your hand was forced to go into supermarkets early. If COVID hadn't happened, that wouldn't have happened. And who knows how different your journey would have been. But obviously at this point, it now needs to start becoming a serious business.

32:47So when do you look at this as the moment that you went from it being a startup and from being a sort of passion-led business of two people in their house using their family members to being like, okay, now we're actually a proper business here? I mean, 2020, we were still very small. So I think it was very much predominantly Southeast, London, online. We still couldn't advertise or anything like that. And 2020, 2021 were tricky. It was still, are we open? Are we closed? It was a strange time. But I think because of, as you mentioned, getting into supermarkets and things, we got that initial traction.

33:20I think 2021 is when we hired our first non-family employee. Actually, our first five hires that interviewed all in lockdown are still with us today, which is amazing. So someone from ops, sales. So it's amazing to think, you know, some of those brilliant people who took a chance on us. And what question were you asking them to see if they were the right people for Trip? So at the time it was, we thought we were looking for people who'd done this before. So it was like, oh, where have you worked where you've spoken to the person at Supermarket X or whatever? But to be honest, a lot of the other roles that we hired, they hadn't done it before.

33:53Like Chloe, who's an amazing head of partnerships and does all of our celebrity ambassadors and global work in the US. we hired her I think as our D2C lead she'd never worked on a website before and just self-taught but she had passion and excitement I think you need people who are excited by the unknown and that is quite unique skill set a lot of people don't like working in the gray and pushing boundaries and that's totally understandable but that was a really critical part of building in those early years and it's still a big part of what we look for today and so now post-covid was there a moment that you sort of thought right we now we've now got some staff we now need to take some investment i would say yeah it was when we moved into our first proper office we were looking at things growing really quickly and when you work in consumer businesses you need to order all of the ingredients to make the product then you sell the product to the store and the customer buys it but you don't get paid sometimes for you know 60 90 days that's a six month cash flow lead time.

34:55And the idea was we're having so much initial traction from not only supermarkets, but quite typically now I know that when you launch a business, a lot of people say go for one channel. So just go for supermarkets or just go for hotels or just go for cinemas or just go for gyms or sell online. And we launched and we did all of it because we were like, everybody needs this. I'm not going to not make it available to people that need it in different parts of their experience. And being so omnichannel, I think, was definitely, again, one of those things that I can look back on and think it didn't make a lot of sense on paper, but it was trusting our gut instinct.

35:33And I think so often people probably think in categories or put you in boxes and think, for example, what we were saying about the store layout that, oh, if it's not an energy drink, it can't go next to energy. Why not? Who made that rule? You're a shopper you're walking in you're thirsty you're going to the fridge you have eyes you're going to look around and I think having that open-mindedness about what we wanted to do meant we'd seen initial success in so many different places that we thought we want to put fuel on the fire so we went and took some investment in 2022 was that a challenging moment because often for a founder to give away some of the things they've created is a quite emotionally quite a hard thing no I think we're still a majority family in business today so we're very fortunate that the success of Trip and the high growth we've had has meant we've been able to keep majority stake.

36:21Because that's one of the big challenges as well for a business like yours. You need the cash to grow. Totally. I guess on reflection, it's also about you need the cash, but you're not like dying without it because that's a very different power dynamic in terms of giving away equity, in terms of how much you dilute yourself, in terms of the terms. So I think we were in a great growth place such that we chose to bring on investment from interested supporters and angels and friends and family, but it wasn't like, if we don't get this, we're going out of business. That is a very different conversation and a very different challenge.

36:52But for us, it was much more, this is so exciting. We still think we're going to change the world. Let's bring more people involved who've been watching since day one. So we have a lot of friends and family involved in that early round. How careful you've had to be though about not being pulled in too many different directions, because when you talk about this is a brand that could sit by the alcohol, by the coffee, buy the energy drinks buy the lunches yeah that also means there was lots of distraction yeah yeah i when i hear this question yeah on paper it is a bit crazy we are pulled in many directions we have many different skews not just beverages we've got supplements gummies powders oils we're in several countries a lot of people try and rein us in and say you need double down on x and just ignore the noise of ABC.

37:40But I think gut instinct has been a really big part of following the customer insight, of course, speaking to the customer. But as I mentioned there, so many customers have different experiences. So if you ignore one big section of who's buying you and what they're living and what their truth is, I think you're missing out. So it's a long window where we're saying, we know we need to focus, but we have the energy and the kind of results that make us just wanting to keep doing what is on paper quite an unusual approach to brand building or product building and where does imposter syndrome sit for you you know you're you're making the decision to do things that a lot of people who've already been down that path would go no Liv that's not the right thing to do but you're still taking what you believe to be the right path yeah I'd say it's a complex area and one that you go through different phases I would say that naivety at the beginning, I didn't have imposter syndrome.

38:35I would say now I think it's important to represent many more viewpoints and to be visible as a female leader in this space, especially when we're talking about mental health and wellness, you know, 50 % of the population are being underserved. So typically, for me, there's been different chapters, I think coming through motherhood, the last couple of years, probably gave me new leadership skills, but also challenged my way of thinking. I'd perhaps subconsciously assumed that leadership needed to look and feel masculine in its energy or its form. But actually the empathy that you can lead with as a female CEO and a mom of two is very empowering.

39:16I hope for the team and for other teams to see in conversations like these and other people listening. But there's no one way, I guess imposter syndrome is a tricky topic because it can mask wider conversations just about self-confidence or uncertainty. I think as an entrepreneur, you live in uncertainty and actually uncertainty is your greatest advantage. When other people aren't sure, if you make a decision, you're already two steps ahead. Even if it was not quite the right decision, it's a movement that then brings energy, brings focus, and you can change if the outcome isn't what you want.

39:46But I think it's that building confidence, which is a daily battle. I mean, my husband's my biggest cheerleader. I talk to him all the time. Is this good enough? If I'm going into something that feels uncertain it's essential for growth it's essential to build resilience the more you do things that you're uncomfortable with the more you're building that muscle of we'll call it resilience and people say how do you become resilient you do it by doing the things no one wants to build it no one wants to practice it but it's just by muddling through I don't have all the answers for sure something my husband and I say to each other I have a huge art print next to my bed purposefully huge it says how lucky are we I think it's a perspective on you're so lucky to get those challenges that drive you and stimulate you intellectually in a way that you could have never expected you're growing and developing in a way that you could never imagine to be able to do that every day and show up is kind of a big deal and you will feel less confident when the stakes are bigger I feel definitely less confident than I did in those early days I think having you have children as well that kind of reassesses your they don't care about, you know, the business and things like that, but it makes you feel different.

40:58It's a different phase. And you've mentioned community a few times. Yeah. How do you become more than just a drink to people? What's the secret to building community as a brand? I think for me, it comes to brand and the feeling it gives you. So I personally don't love to be sold hard on certain USPs of something. You want to feel a feeling of discovery around a brand that you love and it needs to give you a feeling as opposed to just being a commodity so we're very passionate and intentional about everything hopefully that comes across in the product the look and feel the liquid the functional ingredients the brand touch points the brand world should be exciting aspirational but also giving that sense of calm when you need it and for us I think it goes back to what we said earlier like there's so many so many different people having different days and different experiences and being empathetic and sensitive to that and not saying stress looks like this your stress isn't valid no every single person's experience is valid and I think for us building what we hope is a interesting brand world around that and not having it sort of in the shadows or a secret or quiet or something you're embarrassed about but something you feel you can open a conversation about with your loved ones how you're feeling that's really important to us.

42:19So our community, you know, is essentially built on social because of COVID as well. Everything was online. And we've got, you know, tens of millions of people telling us when and where they're feeling these moments of need, what they're looking for and how we can evolve Trip to best service those needs when they need us. So do you look at your plans to grow in the US as exciting or daunting? Definitely exciting. I mean, I'm pretty excitable as a person. And I think so lucky everything with trip is going so well that we're able to keep growing meeting more of our community getting to our customers we want to have a trip within arm's reach of anyone wherever you're feeling that moment of overwhelm so for us the us is one of the biggest markets in the world they drink the most drinks they actually understand mental health and well-being in a lot more of an advanced way in some senses than over here you know they have a different medical system they They spend a lot on their well-being, but also their day-to-day food and drinks.

43:17So it's a very interesting space for us to be playing. And there's a lot of stressed people everywhere, I think. The sky's the limit in terms of how we want to reach more people and help. Is there one mistake that you've made as co-founder of this business that you'd like to warn people about? I can't think of one. There'll be moments every day. I think it comes back to that perspective that we have. We're not, when I say we, Daniel and I, we're not very regretful. We would much rather take an opportunity or figure out the details tomorrow and say yes than think, oh, I wish we'd said yes to that thing.

43:51That's very much our perspective. So there's not one thing that stands out. I think rightly or wrongly, we are just convinced of what we're doing, how we do more of it. I'd say a piece of advice that I guess might be helpful for listeners in terms of things to watch out for or mistakes that others might have made is potentially taking too much advice too early on I think fortunately we didn't take any advice before we launched and then we came up on all these challenges and navigated them and there's a real sense of fulfillment when you're figuring solutions out to what seems to other people incredibly complex and not possible and I think sometimes when you take too many expert opinions on something you can get decision overloads too many choices overwhelm yeah which I guess why a personal experience and personal purpose add so much clarity to where we're going and how we're building so I'd say to anyone listening try not to make the mistake of getting convinced out of something that you feel is true and the right direction because of best practice brilliant Liv thank you so much thank you thanks so much for joining us.

44:58Look, I hope you feel you got loads of takeaways from being in the room where it happened. If you can do me one favour, please just take two seconds to subscribe to the show. You can get each episode directly to your inbox. It means we can attract even more incredible guests like George Heaton, Rory Sutherland, Richard Branson and Will Ahmed to the show. Thanks for watching. See you next time.