The Genius Who Saved Nike - and Made Michael Jordan Iconic

0:01Imagine everything you think you know about one of sports biggest moments isn't what you think it is. A billion dollar deal, an icon that so many people worship, wasn't signed because of fate or talent or destiny. It was a decision made in secret in a mansion by men you've mostly never heard of. At the centre of it all, this week's guest, Sonny Vaccaro. A hustler, a rebel, a visionary. A man who didn't just predict the future of basketball, he created it. In one meeting, one night, in a room in that mansion, he bet everything on an idea so radical it threatened to upend the entire sports industry.

0:35He is the marketing mastermind who saw what no one else did. The power in sport isn't with the leagues or the teams, but with the players themselves. And what happened in the mansion that night didn't just change basketball, it changed power, money, and the way that we see athletes forever. This is the story of one of the greatest moments in sport. The moment when Michael Jordan signed for Nike. And you're about to go into the room where it happened. Brought to you by IFS.

1:07Well, Sonny, let's go to one of the most talked about rooms in sports, which was the room where you convinced Michael Jordan to join Nike. Would you start by just telling us about the room? Well, the room was a whole hotel. What I mean by that, Jake, is it took me many rooms to convince them. You know, the last one was basically on a telephone where we knew we were going the right way. And then he comes to the Nike offices and we know we have it because now we're ready to sign. But it was a short journey, but a complicated one as far as being with the people and especially with Michael. in the term, you know, that three-month period in 84, I only saw Michael one time personally until the last day where he comes to Oregon and we're at worst time.

2:08So all my other work was the peripheral work with the agents and, you know, people from Nike at that time, Rob Shoss and myself, you know, laying the ground where I can make Phil Knight comfortable with the last meeting we had. All of this went into that three-month period. And never until the end was I assured, and obviously the most important thing is Nike. So tell us about your emotions at this time then. How much was self-doubt or fear playing a role? Because this was such a big deal for Nike. Well, to me, it was lose my job or have another one. And Camp and I had just gotten married by three months before that.

2:54So it would have been a good start to our marriage financially. But it was the most important deal that Nike ever made, to be very honest with you. And obviously, for the life of Sonny Vaccaro, I had done other things to get me to that point in that world, the sports world, the basketball world. I was doing another job for Nike at that time. I wasn't searching for the next icon. So it was everything. I don't think there was a bigger bet made in marketing in my lifetime. And I don't think there ever will be. The monies are different now, but the money spent at that time was astronomical and never given to anybody like that before.

3:38So it was something that deserves to be in the iconic phrase of this was it. There's not a better one. If you want to learn from the likes of Sir Richard Branson, Rory Sutherland, or the leaders of brands like Five Guys and Ikea, then please follow the show wherever you watch it or listen to it. Don't forget, you can subscribe to the show. You can follow us on Instagram. You can also connect with us on LinkedIn and you can subscribe to my weekly newsletter all about the show and you'll get the very latest episodes and updates. And did you have any idea, as this was unfolding, that you were involved in something that we would still be talking about 30, 40, 50, 100 years later?

4:22I had an idea that he was special when none of this meant anything. I went to that basketball game when he played against Georgetown and played in North Carolina. The day of that game, when I saw Michael for the first and only time in my life, I was rooting for Georgetown because they were one of our teams and I was close to John and I knew all the players. I never saw Michael Jordan in my life before that particular game. And I didn't give a damn about North Carolina because they weren't wearing Nike shoes. So the time went on. There were three years where I never again thought of him other than he was really good and he got his team to a Final Four and that day, the day one that I watched.

5:06But he was special. He was picked All-American. So what I'm saying to you is it was the most improbable thing that ever could happen to a human being. That all I only saw him that paid attention to about 18 seconds in my life. That 18 seconds somehow remained in my psyche and my brain, whatever you want to call it. In the supernatural, it's mystical. But then one day they asked me a question. And then the question just came out of my mouth. I went to the meeting where they were looking for a player or players to put their shoes on to pay them. I was never invited to that kind of a meeting. My inviting was to pick the college players, get the high school kids, do, you know, do right camps, all that.

5:56I was never involved in a pro thing until the Jordan, you know, question came up. So to answer the question for your audience. There can't be a more interesting signing and significant one with such less, so much, you know, little things brought into it. 17 seconds. That's all I remembered him. And it's two and a half years later. And I say, give it all to the kid. And I bet my job on it. But there's no, there's nothing like that in marketing that ever was done. but the end is certainly not going to be done now. So which room, Sonny, because this show is the room where it happened, which room do you think is most important in this conversation?

6:41Is it the room where you watched MJ play basketball for less than 20 seconds? Is it the room where they brought you in and asked you your opinion on who to sign? Or is it the room where you sat down and finally had the opportunity to convince Michael to join Nike? Jake, I'd like to answer that in two questions. Okay. The room was the, you know, the Superdome. When I watched the game live, when I saw him pass by me and make a shot, it wasn't on that tape that I watched later. That was nothing to do with it. The mental part of it was at 17 seconds. So you can say, this is the biggest room that your audience is ever going to listen about that changed life.

7:30It was a stadium with 60, a court with 50 ,000 people in it. And I made a decision to change the world unknowingly. Now we get to where you want to go. Now it's time for Nike to find someone to save the company, a superstar. They had other good basketball players. It had many. But the other time that it happened in a room was is we went to a mansion. Rob Strasser brought seven or eight of the people involved with basketball, pro basketball. I was the only guy that wasn't involved with pro basketball. I was college in high school. That was my job. We went to this mansion, this beautiful room I imagined that they had.

8:16But it was a very nice place off campus, you know, in 1984 in Portland, Oregon. If you take yourself back there, what did the room look like? Where were people sitting? Were you at a table? Were you standing? Were you drinking something? Take me into that room if you can, Sonny. Well, what I remember, only because there was a special house, the outside looked beautiful. And I knew, you know, the kid from Trafford knew this was a pretty special place. It was very nice, very big. The rooms were large. We were in a room big enough where they can have the screen up there. They had their screen, their board, did they put all the names?

8:58You know, there was concession, there was food to our left. You know, there was all the amenities of spending two or three hours there. You know, there was a, they had a microphone available if you couldn't talk loud enough because it was big enough. There was nine or ten of us, plus the people helping Rob with the board he was writing down, all the names on. It was special. It wasn't like another room. It was someone's, I don't know, because I couldn't explain it. I was never in a home like that before. but it certainly was if you went to the other rooms which we had a path through a very nice place to go and a special place and it was a it was an honor it was a thrill to go there and it wasn't in the back room of the nike you know the headquarters at nike at that time yeah well and 10 000 people we had it to ourselves and were you were you sitting at a table when you spoke and you said those famous words of give it all to the kid were you standing up at that point But I stood up and I was sitting over, I was away from everybody.

10:07Again, there are some people in that room that I never met before in my life. So, and they were all important people at Nike. They were all very important. They had big jobs. You know, they had, you know, a job that was going to last longer than mine if I don't pick the right guy here. But my point to you, I'm sitting somewhere amongst strangers other than Strausser, because I had met him a couple of times. and the young man Howard White, who I knew because he was a very good high school player. He was hired by Nike at that time to work in that department. So I was the stranger. So when I said that and the interrogation started from the other people, what the hell are you talking about?

10:51Well, first of all, we can't get him. Second of all, we all go and he's going to Converse or Adidas. They never thought Converse because he never wore, they wore the shoe. They were first, but he always had this affinity for the Adidas brand or whatever. There wasn't a person in the room that day that even thought would even go after Michael. Even when Rob was going up the point, even though he was the third pick in the draft, I remember this vividly. Taylor skipped over him and a couple of other guys, and they went to this guy and that guy. And then I'm up there, this guy that no one knows, like he's paying money, and this pretty successful program I'm involved in, you know, it was like full gas.

11:37Like, you know, what do you mean? But I said at that time, Jake, I did say to my mom, and I had no idea what I was going to say, give him all the money. I did say that. And some of the guys in that room wanted to split it between two guys or three guys because the most they were paying anybody at that time was Moses Malone at$100 ,000. Everything was a shock in that room when I said those words. And everything was sort of, I felt a sense of, I wasn't included in that group. You know, like I said, when it broke over, I didn't go to lunch with those guys. I mean, I never went to lunch with those guys before.

12:21There was the people in my company, you know, the Nike that I worked for were highly ranked there. I never had dinner with. They weren't friends where you go, Sonny, come on now, you're a BS-in or all that sort of stuff. They were guys, like what happened. I said what I had to say. At the end of that day, I took the plane and went on and saw Pam. Before the meeting with all of those people from Nike that you've been invited to, what were you thinking at that point? What the hell is going to happen here? I didn't know anybody. I basically, I was, again, the outcast. What your public, what do people watching these shows are going to have to understand?

12:58I was the foreigner here. I was the orphan. I didn't know those people. I didn't know what I was walking into. I didn't know what the question was going to be. When I come out, I was the piñata. I was the guy that they all try to break the thing. So I had no clue why I was there and what was going to be asked. So the biggest surprise in my life professionally was at that first meeting that I would even be invited. They weren't selling any basketball shoes. We were paying coaches to get in the room, wear them. We were having teams. We were on the scope. They knew who Nike was, but now we got to go past the people that owned it.

13:48Adidas is in the converse of the world and they're coming on Reebok. So they asked this question of this group of nine. They said, who would you like? And as the movie Air showed, and what happened actually, is all the people made an opinion. That was a very good draft. Five guys in that draft went to the Hall of Fame. It was pretty damn good. So there weren't any losers in there. So somehow Rob kept me to last. And probably psychologically, I was last because I wasn't part of that group, the pro people, the lawyers that paid the coaches the money that they had. They had Moses Malone. They had other great players already, but they didn't move the needle.

14:34So now we're in this room, and he's asking all these questions. And God is my judge. It comes to my turn, and I've never talked. I didn't even know those other guys. I was a transient employee. I'd come in for two or three days. I'd leave, and I'd come back at the end of the month, and mostly during basketball season. I didn't live in Portland. I didn't go there every day. I was the way I am today, singular person that did things with my body and my mind, and I reported in to whoever was paying me. So we're there, and then Rob just asked the question, well, Sonny, what is your opinion? And I never hesitated.

15:14There wasn't like a... In fact, I didn't know they were going to ask me that question, so I couldn't have been prepared. It wasn't something that I said, okay, they're going to ask me this. I had no idea what the hell it was. So I go there and the words just, to my mouth, and I know it's a little iconic because it's been quoted a lot of times in the papers, I said, give it to the kid. No one knew who I was talking about. And I didn't know who I was talking about because I could have said it to anybody because they're all kids. They're all in like 19, 20, 21. But I said, give it to the kid. Who's that?

15:46Jordan, the kid from North Carolina. How did you believe so strongly after watching Michael Jordan for less than 20 seconds live in your life that he was the guy that should get all the money? You know, it's not fair to you or your public the answer here, but I'll say something without any concede or anything. following that and previous to that when i was picking young young people 17 18 year old to play my first all-star game in america you know where kids were in high school and they come to this game and it was the first time they all met because they were all americans without being called it i have a gift and it and it's proved not throughout my life of spotting something or having a good feeling about something i i don't know that it's not that And I went and I said, well, you know, I'm not like a coach, Jake.

16:39I'm not out there looking to, boy, he has a good jump. He has a good first step. Or like, did you see that pass over there? That never enters my mind when I watch a player play. Ever. Young kids, the ones that are, you know, all full, you know, excitement and they think are all the greatest player in the world. You know, they try to do things right. That never impressed me. You know, it's a very similar thing to, you know, a long time later, you know, a few years later, Kobe Bryant came into my mind. Those kind of things that happened to me are just God's gift to me, I guess. And I stood there and then, you know, again, as God is my judge.

17:19And when Rob asked me the question, well, you bet your job on it, just like give it to the kid. Yeah, why not? What do I got to lose? He can't play. I'm no worth it anyway. So basically, that's how it happened. Talking of the room in that beautiful house where you offered those famous words, give it all to the kid, was fear present in your thinking at that point? Were you scared about the fact that you were making what is a huge bet? Not just a financial bet, but you're betting your entire reputation. And all the money they had. So my reputation would have been mute. I'd have been forgotten once I went out that door there.

17:56I mean, so I understand what you're saying, Jake. And it would have, you know, in fact, if it's wrong and they fire me, who knows what the next day is, right? Other than Pam married a guy who don't have a job. But to say to you, to answer your question, it's that thing inside of an individual that just, you know, it's not braggadocio. You know, you just feel that you're the best just guy in a room, even though you have slacks on or blue jeans or shorts. I mean, that's how I feel when I'm doing something. That this is, you know, this is who I am. This is what God gave me this ability. I mean, I'm just being honest.

18:39I didn't go to school to spot talent. And that's what I think it comes down to. And even for your audience. What I'm saying to you is there's no course for spotting excellence. There isn't. It's not a college guy where you take a test and you get 90 out of 100 or you're a genius in that or something like that. This is something that happens instantaneous to a human being, okay? They see something, they like it. You see a girl and you say, this is the girl I want to be. You see a car, but this is deeper. This is something that's psyched because the Jordan thing, the Kobe Bryant thing, I never saw Kobe Bryant before the first day his daddy brought him when he was 16 years old to my camp.

19:31But I knew his dad, but I never saw Kobe play. He was in Italy playing and all that. So do you think that by the time you walked out of that plush room in that beautiful mansion that the other people in the room had been convinced by you that Michael should get all the money. When I left the room, I didn't know if I'd ever see those guys again. That's how unsure I was of what they were going to do. But by some draft of Rob Strasser's mind, there was an order from him for me to get to meet Michael. Give it to the kid. That's a decision made in an instant, but one that would echo for decades. It echoes even today.

20:15But then the next chapter, this time at Nike. And this was the pitch that would change everything. Look, Michael Jordan didn't want to be there. Nike wasn't his first choice, maybe not even his second choice. But Sonny saw what no one else saw. A future no one else had dared imagine. But now he had to convince others to come on the journey with him. So we're at Nike headquarters and Sonny makes his pitch. Not just for a shoe, but this is for a sporting revolution. This is to create a brand built around one man. This is the longest of long shots. This is a true gamble. The kind of gamble that would eventually make a Hollywood movie.

20:47You might have seen it. It's called Air. Well, this isn't the movie. This is the real story. And Sonny is about to take you there. So you've had the conversation in the lovely house. You've walked away and flown back to Oregon with no understanding as to whether your recommendation is going to be taken on board, ignored, discarded, who knows. When was the first time that someone came to you and said, okay, go and meet the kid? When did that moment happen? The next conversation was to meet David Falk, his agent. Right. His agent. So his agent, we meet his agent in Los Angeles, right outside of Malibu and all that sort of stuff.

21:29He's out there because of the Olympics. So I get fortunate, we get fortunate, Falk's there. So Rob invites Falk to his suite at the Hermitage Hotel in California. So Falk comes out. That was the swing boat there. We had to get past David Falk. How did you do that? Well, we bring him on. Rob gave him a deal he couldn't refuse, to quote a famous guy, okay? But what happened was, that's the day Falk took seriously, because he didn't take us seriously at all. He thought it was going to be Adidas or Converse. And he thought it was going to be Adidas. That's what that hour and a half at Rob's suite, we kept getting the repercussions from Paul.

22:20You know, Rob, it's not going to happen. No, he's going to sign with Adidas. It's not going to happen. You know, first of all, yeah, I've got my... Then Rob, Rob presented a very good financial package that no one ever presented, where we included a lot of money and a chance for Michael to share in the proceeds or the profits of the shoe salve. So Falk's in his room, and we're talking, and he leaves and comes back, and now we're pretty much situated. But nothing's done yet. No. So still nothing's done? Nothing's done until the end of it's done. Wow. No, sure. That's how it was. Money was only talked to at fault, but it was never decided until they put the pen to it.

23:13So the whole thing is like a mirage for the biggest deal ever done, and for the marketing deal of the century, obviously. That's what's so hard for me when I sit down with people like yourself and I try to be upfront about the whole thing. And, you know, each new step that I was able to put together added to it. And we finally got him to go out to, you know, Portland. He didn't know who I was. So I arranged for someone to meet and go to Tony Romo, which is legendary in my story. This is the first time you see the white of Michael's eyes. It's the first time you're able to share with him who you are, who Nike are, and why you want to do the deal.

23:57What did you choose to say to open the conversation with Michael? Were you fully aware this could be the first and the last time that you meet Michael Jordan? Yeah. I didn't know him. He didn't play my games. There was no reason for him to like me. I didn't pick him for the Dapper Dan. They didn't wear him in North Carolina. I was a Georgetown guy. We talked about that. We laughed about that for the first minute. Like, okay, Sonny, you were rooting against us. I said, yeah, I was. You know, but just so your audience understand, this whole set of circumstances, if you put everything into one basket and put a time limit, I bet you we don't get to six hours.

24:41I mean, a total concentration to get in there. I mean, of the different people. But Michael was only there for an hour. We had the ribs and he went and I didn't see him again until we were going to sign the contract. So how did you feel the meeting went with him at Tony Romo's? I felt that at least he knew who I was because of the All-Star game. We did hug, and he said, the last thing, he said, Mr. Carroll, you know I'll probably sign with Adidas because I've never worn and all that sort of stuff. He gave me that speech, and I said, well, how about if we just keep trying? He said, well, stay in touch.

25:20Did you still believe at that point that you could get Michaels and Nike? Well, I don't know what I believed all those years later, but I do know what I said. I said to Rob, like, Rob, he's too special just to quit now. What's the next step? Or words to that effect. I didn't let it down. But then that's when Rob thought of, we have one more time. He's still, you know, the team's still out there. You know, you've got to convince Knight now. If Knight gives me the money and ups the money to sign Jordan, then Falk's got to listen. I was nervous. Nothing's done until it's done. But the fact that physically they're here, we're a big favorite to go to a Las Vegas thing.

26:08We're a big favorite. They wouldn't have come out if we weren't close to closing this thing. Yeah, but Sonny, that puts more pressure on you because at the beginning there was no pressure because this was a long shot. suddenly Michael's come into the Nike offices. Now you've got to make this thing happen. You've got to deliver on the day. It was my job, really, basically. But at this time now, we have money invested because I might run around trying to get on, trying to recruit them, spending time, putting ourselves up front and people knowing what we're doing. We're in the act. We're making bids for them.

26:46So take us into the room then in Portland, Oregon. Michael, Jordan, and his family walk in. What happens next? Everything was on the table. And there were people saying things and making speeches and doing whatever, you know, and hopefully done. It was Mrs. Jordan that basically said, we're in. It wasn't like Michael said, you know, I'm in or whatever. It was Mrs. Jordan that, you know, she was, because we're not there without Mrs. Jordan or Mr. Jordan. It doesn't get there. She was sort of an advocate. I always felt. I don't know that she played favorites or whatever, but she was sort of an advocate of what I was trying to say.

27:31There's that famous speech, Sonny, from the film that Matt Damon delivers so brilliantly. How accurate was that speech to reality? Well, I can only say this, okay? You know, I've given those, so Matt is playing me. I've given those speeches or said those words in my life a few times. So what you saw was probably a compilation of my speeches made into Matt Damon making a brilliant, brilliant scene in a movie. But the words were said. That was worthy of it being in there. It wasn't a fake situation. Those words were said. And at the end, when it was all over until, you know, we separated, you know, and Mr.

28:20Jordan out there, Mrs. Jordan is still a lifeline friend. So when I go back over, we knew the family pretty darn well, especially Mrs. Jordan, and still to today. Phil was good at the meeting because he basically, you know, okayed everything, the money, everything. He was good. He was, you know, sometimes like pouring teeth, I guess. But he went along with each rise and the money and cutting up the goodies, you know, things. But he was good that day. I mean, and Rob was brilliant and, you know, wasn't the... And Peter Moore, too. You know, Peter Moore, you know, that was the first time they looked at it.

29:07And somewhere along the line, those words were expressed, it ain't a shoe until my son, you know, it's nothing that my son puts his foot in it, sort of thing. Somewhere those kind of words were said. It was a beautiful afternoon, obviously, because we signed Michael Jordan.

29:27So, Sonny Vaccaro has spent a lifetime in the shadows of giants. He's not the player, right? He's not the coach. He's not the billionaire's CEO. but he's the guy that still changed the game and I think after all these years Sonny isn't just looking back at those deals looking back at the endorsements or looking back at the shoes he's actually reached a point where he's now thinking what does it all mean? like what happens when business and loyalty collide? when your industry shifts beneath your feet and after everything, after shaping sport as we know it today what does he now want you and I to understand?

29:58Sonny knows that all the strategy the dollars, the law degrees they don't actually help you understand the most important factor of all, which is people. And you know, I think that is his superpower. So I asked Sonny to reflect on his career, on his life, and what he thinks of the industry today. Before we leave it, I just want to talk about what happened next. Do you remember when you first got this sense of just what a big star Michael was going to be for Nike and how great this deal was going to be? The fact you were going to revolutionise in many ways, endorsements and sports marketing? I thought it could be that big.

30:36Not that big. But I always thought he'd be the only person who could bail him out. I mean, I think if they pick wrong in 84, they're dead. Game's over. He saved the company. You think Nike would have died? No, it was... They'd have just been another shoe company. Just be honest. I don't care what anybody says. Just honest. If Michael's deal saved Nike, You made the deal happen, Sonny, so you saved Nike. You're being kind and whatever. But also what Michael did was he put me through the test too. We had to go to all these tests. We had to do all these things and we got them done. You said that Michael kept testing you.

31:24You got very close to doing a deal for LeBron to join Adidas. You've worked with Kobe. You've worked with Michael. What is it about the greats that separates them, do you think? That's why they're great. You don't have the answer. That's why they're great. That's why they're special. I mean, you know, and you can do this in any, I think entertainment, you know, goes into sports, Jake. And I have a theory on that. Great entertainers, where they're saying there's a hundred of them have a hit. thousand have a hit they all they all do whatever but every sort of generation there's someone special that comes along and that special person whatever they do is something they're doing to perform for an audience because that's how legacies begin you have to get a broad audience you have to get people buying into whatever your product is whether it's an actor on stage whether it's a football player, a soccer player, a baseball, whatever.

32:30But if you look at the singers and whatever, and you're lucky today because what I'm saying to you here is, and I started saying it the last two, three months, look what's happened to Caitlin Clark, the girl basketball player in America. They'll come out of nowhere, and she's a hero. I mean, she made women's basketball. They've been playing it for 100 years, right? And all of a sudden, this girl, she was that magnetic thing that happened that saved basically the whole sport. Now other girls are doing things and all that stuff. You watch Beyoncé on the things, and she's a great performer. You know,

33:19Taylor Swift is like the most interesting to me. And I've honestly, you know, I don't know the song she sings. I just know what she was able to do over time. And you being in England can react to this. And I don't know all their names, but I grew up loving like the plays of the great actors in England. I mean, they would become iconic. They would be whatever. And I wouldn't even understand. I didn't know what these things were or who these actors were, but they lived throughout history because they were great performers. And that's the life I've been allowed to share. I know the separation point.

34:07I know the difference between Tracy and Michael, or LeBron, then another guy, whatever. They're all good, right? But then some of these guys just go here. And Kobe was like that in basketball. But without Jordan, I never get a chance to do 90 of those things because being with Jordan and becoming close to him and then the marketing part of it going off the whole, You know, you just, you're swimming and all of a sudden you went over, boom, like Niagara Falls, boom. Michael was, and is, always will be, the marketing genius of the history of whatever marketing is. So for that, for me to be on that ride allowed me to have a lot of ammunition, a lot of vehicles to get where I am today at 85 and be able to do some of the other things I did before I'm not here anymore.

35:07My life has had ebb and flow to it, a continual thing. Every time I did something new in my lifetime since I was a kid, the next project was the most, the next thing, the next player, the next event I did with players, you know, all the legal things I did for a lot of kids, was the most exciting thing. And Sonny, my final question for you before we end this absolutely fascinating chat is what's the biggest lesson from the whole story of Nike signing Michael Jordan that you think is something that you want to leave our audience thinking about? What's your abiding lesson from this period of your life?

35:50Okay, from a personal level, is believing what you're doing. I know, Jake, I've said that before, but if there is anything that comes out here on this personal level, I can only tell your public what I did and what I was through in my life. Nothing, no one promised me tomorrow. No one. So every tomorrow I was able to get, I used to the advantage of my life going forward. It may have been nothing except Kevin and I going for a hamburger or something like that. But it was a good day. It was a day. And there were many days of sadness and many days of hurt. But I think the belief in one, oneself, however it is, nothing's too small for yourself.

36:37It doesn't have to be Michael Jordan or LeBron or the soccer player or whatever, or a singer, to make sure that you have a good life. He says, just enjoy what you're doing and do it honestly. Do what you're doing honestly. What a powerful way to end. And Sonny, thank you so much for taking the time and sharing, you know, what has been a remarkable life. I really do appreciate you stopping what you're doing and speaking to us, you know. We are surrounded by businesses, both the successful and the struggling. Those that have good fortune, those that are simply unlucky. But to truly understand the truth behind their stories, you have to learn from them.

37:16You have to ask the questions. You have to be there. You have to be in the room where it happened. If you enjoyed today's episode in partnership with IFS, don't forget to subscribe to the show, follow us on Instagram, and you'll be the first to get the latest episodes.