The Truth About WSL Wages, Sponsorship & the Lionesses

0:02Welcome to High Performance Business with Colin Murray and Natalie Perks because in the modern day, hit us with the catchphrase please. Sport is only half the story, which is a rare example of a show slogan that actually tells you everything you need to know about this podcast, which is us trying to bridge the gap between the business of sport and the sport itself and hopefully bring you all along so we can understand it just that little bit better. And on this week's episode, after all the debacle surrounding FIFA, Colin and I are going to be looking at who could be the next FIFA boss if Infantino is ousted eventually.

0:38And we're going to chat about who we would pick for the top job in football. But we begin today by taking on air a conversation that we've had that's evolved and spread like an octopus's tentacles. It's eventually going to end up with what you get paid being a WSL regular player, maybe even the captain of your team, but not a lioness. Is it enough to work in sport for your whole life? But it got us thinking, what did the 50th best in individual sports earn? But before that, I just want to, do you know what got me going, right? So if you aren't a lioness, but you're a really good English footballer, you might be the 50th best female footballer in England, right?

1:18And I started thinking about other sports and you being the 50th best just in the world at it, an individual sports. And this is where I'm going to start to parent your kids. So forget about the 14 year olds. We've lost her. She's gone. Let's not bring that on air. But the 10 year old is still hope. What would you hand her? Clubs, racket. What would you hand her in order to get to the place where she can buy you a house in 10 years? Which is obviously the entire plan A retirement plan. She gave up tennis, much to my disappointment. but I could try and cajole her back or maybe golf. Those are both maybe the best answers when it comes to individual sport.

1:56Let's get this right. When it comes to sport and it's mainly male dominated here, NFL, Major League Baseball, basketball, ice hockey, let's go down the list, Formula One, football obviously, that's where you would go but it's different when we look into different genders. So I'm glad you started with golf and tennis. I've got two other sports I want to do but let me break that down for you. Let me run you through really quickly with the 50th best players in these sports. And let's do golf. 50th ranked as I looked at it. Have a guess at the prize money last year. $1 million. $8.5 million. Now we go down to the female.

2:33Similarly, 50th ranked in the LPGA. Half that. Half a million. A million. I just made your daughter rich. Brilliant, thanks. Because she's going to take up golf. It's great. But bear in mind, she's going to have to pay for her coach, her nutrition, travel for everyone on her team, hotels for everyone on her team, and go around the world. So you can almost half that. And the hope is that the 30 %-ish representation of your overall prize money will probably come in in sponsorship. And you're going to be able to pay for hopefully all that and keep your wage. Tiny violin, right? But the point of making it is you do have to pay your way.

3:08And that's the rub when it comes to snooker and it comes to darts, which are massive sports. We know who's at the top. Judd Trump, Luke Littler, Luke Humphries, Michael Van Gerwen, Neil Robertson, Ronnie O'Sullivan. We know that. But even Ronnie himself has said, hey, we need to look at a better balance of payout across the sport because it's a little bit of a cliff drop. You can't have anything else if you don't have 32 players. You need to have that round. You're looking at about 130 ,000 a year for the 32nd-ranked snooker player in the world. And when it comes to darts, that's about 150. So comparable when you look at both of those.

3:44And how do we know? Go on. Believe it or not, in snooker and darts, the rankings are based on how many thousands of pounds they've earned. Amazing. So if your ranking is 300.6, that's your rolling two-year figure of what you earned. So we can literally go, you've earned 150 ,000. Not sure how comfortable I'd feel about that if I was a snooker player or a darter, but as two people have worked for the BBC, we have experience of that. Which leads us to the reason we're having this conversation, which you phoned me and you said, I think there's a really good story about these new minimum wages in the WSL and also that players who are genuinely successful in the best women's league in the world don't have boot deals.

4:27Now, I understand where women's football was, where women's football is and where it's going to go. And that curve is not even a curve. It's a straight line that way. So complete props. Yeah, I think if you have watched England win back-to-back Euros, You're thinking women's football in this country is booming and it is. England is the only country with two professional, fully professional leagues, WSL, WSL2. But I've spoken to quite a few people this week and one of the agents I spoke to yesterday about this described it as the 1 % club. So if you are Alessia Russo, Leah Williamson, Lauren James, you know, one of those top lionesses that everyone now knows, you are being paid to wear boots.

5:11You're being paid to advertise major sponsors. You're getting paid to wear certain clothes. You're doing very, very well. Thank you very much. Nike paid just shy of 1.5 million for a three-year deal for Ellatoon. Wow. So 500 grand a year on top of what she's earning elsewhere just for Nike. And rightfully so. Absolutely. But if you're not a lioness, it's a really, really different story. So what do you think is the minimum wage an up-and-coming 18 to 20-year-old in the WSL will be paid? Well, seeing as you answered all my questions with Dr. Evil, I'm just going to say$1 million to everything. They bloody wish.

5:50It's just under 27 grand. And if you're 23 and over in the WSL, you're earning a minimum of 42.5 grand, which is just above the national average median wage. But in between, like, 35 grand? Close. About 35 grand. Weird to have a different price for people who are 21 and 22, but fine. I don't make a risk. There's a reason. That's football for you, isn't it? That is the minimum, of course, that they're being paid. But the majority of them will not have boot deals. Now, Nike did a deal with the WSL to make sure that everyone has boots. So anyone that doesn't have a boot deal or anyone that perhaps can't afford to keep replacing their boots, they've got two pairs every season with Nike, which is great.

6:32But here's the thing. What's the retirement plan? If you are a footballer, a female footballer, you are retiring at, what, 34, 35? Yeah, unless you go into coaching, but there's obviously a finite amount of jobs available. Yeah, and obviously if you are not a Lioness, which the majority of that league is not, and you've got teams that have come up, like Charlton, for example, who you might be paying 50 grand a year. Yeah, servants, right? Players who have captained them through promotion. Correct. They've been there for years and years. who we know. And where it all ties together in our interest of not just rehashing news stories and actually bringing our own content to something is that it ties into if you're the 50th best English footballer, then you are whatever is not a lioness.

7:20A great animal maybe, like a hyena or a zebra. But you get the point, right? You know I love my animals. I can talk all day. Don't start me. I'll give you so many stats. It's a very different podcast. You will be replaced by Chris Packham by the end of the month. But yeah, that's how we ended up looking at the other 50 best players. I think there's so much to this, especially where women's football was, where it is and where it's going to go. I commend any way of trying to get some sort of structure in place, but it's a reality at the moment. You're probably looking at a job beyond football if you're the 50th best English player at the moment.

7:56And we have the perfect guest to talk about this. She's a senior advisor to VP at UEFA, Laura McAllister. looks after Mary Earps, is a presenter, a journalist, and she's married to a Lioness. That'll about do it. We're back after this. Well, we're back, and as promised, Beth Fisher is with us now. Beth wears many hats in football. She's the senior advisor to UEFA Vice President Laura McAllister and Lioness Mary Earps. She's a broadcaster, but she's also married to a former Lioness. She is absolutely best place to help us with this one today. Hugely underqualified to talk about this subject, but you know, desperate measures.

8:39Beth, we're so happy to have you with us. A little bit earlier, we were talking about how an agent described to me as being a lioness in the WSL as being part of the 1 % club. Is that your experience too, in terms of sponsorship, wages, etc? Just give us a bit of perspective. Yeah, I guess, you know, the lionesses exploded, didn't they, onto the scene really after winning the Euros in 2022. So being a Lioness in the WSL is a massive asset. Everyone is looking for a Lioness, whether that's in a club, some of the younger Lionesses at under 20 level, you know, the sponsors, they want the Lionesses.

9:15So, you know, they may be a small percent of the current population within the WSL, but they are a huge asset wherever they go, whether that's the club, a brand, or their own personal brand as well. And we've seen that, haven't we, with the likes of Chloe Kelly and Marriott, of course. So, yeah, they're a huge entity in themselves. Fun fact, Lionesses, when they look at the data for the demographic of followers on social media, trend way younger than those who follow male footballers, no matter what their age are. So there's actually loads of things that, for example, alcohol companies find it quite hard to legally work with lionesses and they are just prime.

9:59They're right in that teenage market, that 16, 17, 18 year old boy and girl that are a marketer's dream if you can get to them Beth. No, exactly. And, you know, we looked at Mary's data and we presumed it would be that kind of younger age group. But Mary's biggest fan base is that 24 to 35 year old age gap obviously with women being predominantly that percentage. So it's really interesting about where these lionesses fit. And I think what's, I think, really special about women's sport in particular and the lionesses, and, you know, if you look at other countries like Wales and Scotland, is that you've got this big brand, you know, the lionesses, but in each individual player is their own little market.

10:41So, you know, you've got Mary Earps, who I think, obviously, you know, I'm biased because I worked with her, but before that, you know, she campaigns heavily for what she believes in, whether that's mental health, you know, getting young girls playing football. And then you've got the Chloe Kelly kind of model where, you know, she's that kind of the type that young girls and boys kind of want to be, you know, practicing the penalty that she took in in the last Euro. So that's what fascinates me the most is that the personalities really come through and they're very individual. And I think that picks up loads of different fans, whether that be those young girls and boys or, you know, the older generation.

11:13I'll tell you a quick story. Mary opened her football pitch in Nottingham. The Lionesses all had ones named after them after the Euros in 2022. And there were literally grown women crying meeting Mary. You know, it was the first time I'd experienced that. And I was like, my goodness, I want to have a One Direction concert. But that is the power that these women, these amazing football players and actually superstars of their sport have on not just little girls and boys, but actually grown women. What's interesting, Beth, is the fandom in the WSL is different, isn't it, to the Premier League? because a lot of them tend to go for players over clubs.

11:48And so a player with a huge personality like Mary does induce that kind of fandom, doesn't she? Yeah, there were some stats actually that the WSL told me the other day that when Mary left to go to PSG, the attendance dropped at Man United. Wow. That was the impact of her alone. And, you know, I'm talking very much about Mary because I work with her every day. But one of the biggest things I said to her when we started working together, which was nine months ago, obviously she was in PSG, a massive club in terms of world football. I was like, you've got to come back to WSL. As much as women's football is growing, you know, the French League is nothing like the WSL.

12:23It not just creates this kind of fandom, but it's the interest, like you say, in these personal players. And people will go and watch players rather than a club. And maybe, Colin, you'll have a bit of a thing with that, given, you know, you're such a football fan. But I think actually that's the new phase, you know, especially women's sport. And I think people will need to embrace that. I actually think it's a reflection of where men's football's gone as well. I think it's actually more just a younger generation thing in that they are a kid who's, we had no way of doing it, but because of mainly gaming, an eight-year-old kid sitting in Kent can tell you who the Borussia Dortmund left back is because he plays against them every day.

13:02Well, we didn't know that. We were literally having to look up teletext to see who started for Liverpool. Teletext. Right? The other leagues didn't exist. Remember when Italian football came out? And that's actually a really good point, right? Because I remember Stuart Pearce, when he made his debut for Nottingham Forest, we're talking about a team who were right at the top of their trade. He advertised in the program as an electrician because he still had another job. Women's football had been neglected and banned for decades and decades and decades. So we are still quite early on in the curve, I suppose.

13:38I think that's a really important thing to note that it's only recently, like if we take a wider angle lens, that a female English professional footballer can make a million quid. And it's still, by the way, the average wage in the Premier League going into this season is£80 ,000 a week. Right, so a little bit of perspective, we're on the way up. And that's why actually, I'm so positive about what Natalie explained to me today, which is saying, look, you can't earn less than£26 ,900 if you're 18 to 20 and the WSL all the way up to minimum wage for 23 and over being 42 ,500. The reality is at those wages, if that's the player you remain and you don't become a lioness, you're going to need a job when you retire in football or out of it.

14:26And I'm not saying that as a criticism. It's a case, isn't it, Beth, of where we are right now on an upward trend. Yeah, we are. And I think, you know, there's so much talk about comparing it to men's game and the money that's there and i think it's i think it doesn't do justice to actually women's sport because there's so many things within the women's game that the men's game just doesn't have and i know that you know i've not only been a fan but you know i've been a journalist been at games the atmosphere is different it's a different product and we need to treat it like that but what i would say as well like as of the third of august the premier league had spent 1.63 billion pounds on transfers you know these numbers are crazy and i would say you know the So WSL and women's football is on a journey, but take football out, you know, out of the sporting arena.

15:11You know, I was a hockey player playing for Wales. I had to pay to play for my country. So, you know, I'm not saying that these players should be grateful. But I think, you know, that journey of where we are is really important to understand. But it is getting better. And that is the key point in this. Beth, you're in a really unique position because, of course, you're married to Anita Asante, former Lioness. does Neitz ever sort of look back at her career and think I wish I was earning this kind of money 10 years ago I do I I'd be you know I wouldn't know you know when I met her she was playing for Chelsea she you know I'll be really honest with the figures she was on she was on mid-40s which at the time was a big wage you know she's she was at a time where she won the good super with Arsenal went to America went to Sweden has luckily been paid to play football her life you know we're not talking anywhere near the likes of what the girls are now but is she is she regretful that she wasn't paid that of course there's an element isn't it that everyone would like to be paid more money but I think the journey that she's been on and I speak to the likes of Jill Scott and Lucy Bronze the journey they've been on I think makes their kind of end game even more special and I think you know what I will say we've got to be really careful in the women's game where players are demanding lots of money that we're not becoming too far down the line.

16:30There's still players within WSL and WSL2 who aren't earning a lot of money, who don't necessarily have a car sponsor or even a boot sponsor. So I think whilst we want to push that top end of the game, we've got to be really careful that we don't lose the bottom part. I think that's the key bit. That's absolutely bang in the middle of the conversation that we want to have because when we see Barcelona pay 1.25 million for one player and then we also see these minimum wages within the WSL, how can the WSL not make the same mistakes that the Premier League made? How does the WSL provide a fairer payment structure across the board and do you feel like they've started on the right road towards that as the game grows, that it won't all just go to the very top end?

17:20Yeah, it's really difficult because, you know, over the last few years, obviously Chelsea has been at the top of, you know, buying in players. And I've always been in the camp that they should be able to do that. They should be pushing the game forward. And it is up to the other clubs to come with them. You know, London City Lioness is the only independent club that aren't attached to a men's team. The question should be to the men's team, why aren't you spending more on your women? Man United, for example, a huge club in the men's game. We know that. but have they really put the investment into their women's team that they deserve?

17:51And we're not just talking about salaries here. We're talking about staff numbers, paying staff the right amount of money, the facilities. I think, again, we've got to be really careful that we don't get too focused on these big salaries because, you know, I think these girls deserve it, absolutely. But it's more about questioning the clubs that aren't doing that in the right way. And one of the interesting things, I guess, as well is, you know, Arsenal last season played all their WSL games at the Emirates. Chelsea, you've already mentioned, are going to do that at Stamford Bridge this season.

18:20But Arsenal were doing a hell of a lot of the heavy lifting when it comes to the attendances in the WSL. And actually, if you look at the rest, they're down a bit. So have we seen the bump of women's football with the Euros wins? Is it going to have to be something else that gets more people involved? Where do you think it is in terms of the fandom and people going to games? If you look at the numbers and the type of person that's going to these games, it is families. And, you know, I've got a three-year-old and some of the games, you know, have been put on it late at night or, you know, at 12 o 'clock on a Sunday.

18:53Some of the stadiums, obviously, let's be frank, were designed by men for men. And they're not practical sometimes for families. You know, it's, you know, on a Sunday, if you're trying to get there for 12 and you've got, you know, maybe three kids in tow and you're trying to get the tube, you know, you know what it's like now as well. You know, it's near impossible to get that organized sometimes. So I think what we've got to really look at is, OK, who's our core audience and who do we want our core audience to always be? If men don't want to watch women's football, fine, to do something else.

19:21Let's really embrace what we've got. And I think the WSL, to be fair, they have looked at the times this season. So I know some of them are changing. But ultimately, men's stadiums aren't necessarily designed for kids and families, you know, whether that comes to changing facilities and things like that. I remember taking Gigi, our little girl, as a one-year-old to a stage room, and there was nowhere to change a nappy. He had to do it on the floor. There's things like that which really can put people off. So I think we're still a long way to go, but I think you've got to remember with Arsenal as well that they've been at the forefront of women's, kind of pushing the women's game forward for over 20 years now.

19:58And one of the interesting things with Goodison Park, with Everton, is that they are retrofitting that stadium to make it more friendly. They're putting in baby change units. they're putting in more female toilets because you know what it's like as a woman to go to a men's ground oh my, the queues anyway, so they are doing that so that's interesting because they're really trying to cater for the specific audience that goes to WSL and to say of Goodison Park that's a fantastic choice to do that I think in terms of the heritage and therefore the business of Everton Football Club as a whole couple of things there first of all, naming your kid after Gigi Wijnaldum is quite wonderful and it was great to hear that But I think it's important to stress that women's football just knocks doors down.

20:40I was coming in on the tube today. I mentioned that because I want everyone to think I'm still a man of the people. And second of all, because I was sitting there and there was an advert right in front of me. And it was two female footballers, two young women, nondescript. It was just a tackle. They were wearing a generic shirt. And the hand was raised out to say, I'll lift you off the floor. And it's for the British Army. It's, you're already ready. look, you're already trained to be in a team. You're already trained to be in a battle. You're already trained for this. And they decided that a generic women's football pitcher would get that message across to who they want.

21:19That suggestion that that would have happened 20 years ago, all around me, all the time, are reminders of where women's football is. I think it's very, certainly I feel like it from my point of view of like, from going to Slough or going to Boreham Wood to where it is now. If the conversation is, because of kickoff times and because of a little bit of more emphasis needed to be put on the family and the facilities, there's 5 ,000 less people going to the Emirates to watch Arsenal. My God, the business model of women's football is in a great place. And whether these figures are right or whether they quite do enough for WSL players outside of the Lionesses.

22:03Goodness me, it's a great step, isn't it? What I would say as well is that they've shown that people going to WSL matches actually spend more than people going to Premier League matches per person going to a game. So there's a reason for sponsors maybe to get more on board because women are spending money and people who love women's football are spending money. So there's that business side of things. But just one final thing, Beth. My kids came to the women's European final at Wembley the first time they became European champions. And I was very, very happy to have them there while I was working.

22:39I would not have been happy to have them there a year earlier at the men's European final. It was a very different vibe. And so anyone who perhaps hasn't been to women's football because of those reasons, I would sort of urge them to understand it's different, isn't it, Beth? yeah I mean I remember taking my nephew um must be 20 odd years ago to watch a Cardiff City match we're at the family end the swearing was so bad we're talking top level stuff here I had to take him out my you know 20 years on my nephew is now five all he's ever watched is women's football and it is just the most incredible atmosphere yes it's getting a little bit more kind of traditional in that kind of fan you know bantry type of thing but it's nowhere near and I think as well, Matt, you will agree as a reporter it's a completely different atmosphere as well, so I completely agree and I think, let's not make people choose, I think is the other option but just go with what fits you best as well And also that's not entirely a gender thing because baseball's my number one sport and I'm a season ticket holder in it and we go and we have passion and we have support and we hate to lose and love to win and we're not segregated and we have families and when the game finishes we all walk down the same street and there's next to zero police presence so a lot of sports get it right regardless of who's on the pitch so the onus goes on who's in the crowd it really does and they should never get off the hook for it they should never get off the hook for it just before you go we're going to be talking about our choices we're going to reveal our choices of who we'd have as the next head of fifa just off your head even if it's just an image of what you would like where would you like to see the organization head albeit probably a little fantastical to think that we're going to have a root and branch change?

24:27Yeah, well, you know, I am the vice president of UEFA's senior advisor. So, you know, I've been heavily involved in what's been happening over the last week. But I think, as Laura says, the future has to be someone who's a custodian of the sport and is capable of bringing the world of football and sport together. But I think for those who don't know what it's like, it's extremely political. would I love to see a female president of course I would but you know we know how difficult it is for women to kind of get the support in very male organisations which let's be frank UEFA and FIFA is but listen I just think as we all know that there is a change needed and it needs to be someone who brings the football world back together yeah absolutely Beth what an absolute pleasure thank you for joining us we will now reveal on holiday so that is absolutely sensational some would say You were just looking to break from your kids.

25:20I wouldn't say that. I would say it's amazing that you're here. Thank you so much. Lots of love to you and thank you. Thanks, Berth. Episode one of High Performance Business was pulled from pillar to post because as we were making it, the biggest sports business story of the year broke. And of course, that was FIFA and Gianni Infantino, which president. He announced the plans to sell off FIFA's commercial and event operations only to receive such a whirlwind of criticism. Do you remember his first pushback? It was like, calm down, everybody. It's fine. But of course, he ended up apologising after the big meeting in Morocco like a naughty schoolboy.

25:56So the upshot of it all is he's still FIFA president, which hasn't surprised many of us, at least until next year's election. So I just want to imagine for a while that we were in charge of world football. Who would we have put in there? And how much would it be a fantasy choice, an idealistic choice, a left field choice or someone who we actually feel could give us the safeguards we need? You go first. Well, it's just the usual suspects, I think, isn't it? A lot of them have been in and around this conversation for such a long time. Some of them have ran against him for president before or tried to run in the past.

26:33Obviously, UEFA have been spearheading this. If they want to get him out, which we know they do, they've got to put someone up by mid-November. So it has to be a credible name from UEFA, but it might not come from Europe. But, you know, Infantino's still very much there. So who would be the top candidates? Salman bin Ibrahim al-Khalifa. You know, he's very, very influential. He's a FIFA senior vice president from Bahrain. AFC president. Yeah. He was a really vocal critic of Infantino. He said the failed World Cup investment proposal was totally unacceptable in an open letter to all of the AFC's 47 members.

27:11He has already lost to Infantino in 2016. And I think what's key with him is that he could have a total of 48 % of the 211 votes that are available because if he could marshal that Asian, African, you know, 101 votes in total, that could be great for him. Nasser al-Khalifi, everybody in football knows him. He's obviously PSG president. He'd have to resign. He'd have to resign. so he would have to leave Disney that's a big thing to ask anybody to do I'd be like I'm kind of alright where I am I'm alright thanks I've got a nice gig crucially he says he doesn't want it he's not interested so Arsene Wenger obviously everyone in English football knows who Arsene Wenger is are we not doing that?

27:57no because he was the guy that shouted loudest for having a World Cup every two years so immediately I think most of you will not want someone in charge who may go back to that and push that. That is as important to me, Natalie, as the financial integrity of the World Cup. I would place moving the World Cup to once every two years as big a crossing of a red line as Infantino's financial plans. Yeah, and I think most fans would probably agree with you because the reason we love it is because it doesn't happen all the time. So what about Victor Montagliani? He's the CONCACAF president, has been since 2016.

28:29Can we just have him because he's Canadian? Yeah, you love Canada, don't you? I just feel a bit more trustworthy, right? Like as somebody who spends a lot of time there, even the Anthem's like, we don't want to fight we're all right but if you want to fight but you know Neil Young Jim Kerry Alanis Morissette what's not the love about this country I don't see it happening but I think he probably has maybe a little bit of a better balance between the business of football and the football itself but none of them none of those male candidates really make me jump with joy so what we're going to do is we've picked if we were king and queen who would we have as the FIFA president.

29:07Obviously, I am queen of my own world. If I married her and became a king, who would I have? So we're going to start with your choice. So we're not looking at, will it happen? We're looking at, it would be a great choice and it would work and we'd all sleep better in our football beds at night. Okay, here's my pitch. There've been nine FIFA presidents in total since 1904, right? Zhao Haviland left in 98 after 24 years, eventually having to resign as an honorary member of the International Olympic Committee after breaching its ethics for taking bribes. He endorsed Set Blatter. He resigned 17 years later amid a corruption scandal.

29:49And the man who rode in on his white horse was Infantino. Apart from the stench of alleged corruption, what's the common denominator? Really bad choice of shoe stroke trainers. And that they all have, I believe the plural is penai. I wouldn't like to comment on what they might or may not have. But yeah, not a man hater. And it's all right. Big fan, I would say. Right? But can we just try a woman now, please? It's not working. So is there a woman that you feel could get the votes or at least could be part of this say and how realistic do you think it is? And let's pitch. They're two very different things.

30:33Could she get the votes? Probably not. And we'll come to that. But should she? Absolutely. Let me present to you Lisa Clavines, president of the Norwegian Football Federation. One of only two women on the UEFA Executive Committee. Former international, 73 cap. So she knows a player. She knows how they feel, what they want. I think that's really important. Really important. She's a lawyer, an ex-judge. So she's got the smarts. And since she joined, the men and women's teams have reached the quarters of the Men's World Cup, of course, and the Women's Euros. So she's got clear demonstration of success.

31:07And I think a lawyer is like a good other string because Sepp Blatter was a lawyer. Well, so is Infantino, to be fair. And Infantino was a lawyer, so we know that works. Yeah. So we know that always ends well. But I want to talk to you about one extreme act of bravery. Yes. So you're brand new in your job. You know no one. You've got a six-minute address to give at FIFA. in Doha, no less, and you're months away from the World Cup being played there. You're a gay woman, so already in Qatar, illegal. She chose that moment to give a speech that criticised Qatar for that reason and for the human rights issues that were ignored.

31:49She said the awarding of that World Cup in 2010 was done in unacceptable ways with unacceptable consequences. Delegates were gagged. You do not go into Buckingham Palace and slag off the king. And that's exactly what she did. And since that moment, she's been a real favourite of mine. She continues to push against FIFA. She's been outspoken about Infantino. And even Set Blatter has said it's time for a female president. But do you know why she won't be? Because she's a woman who's put her head above the parapet. And we know that never goes well. Absolutely, but it's above the parapet you hear the birdsong.

32:23So it's absolutely fantastic to choose her. And not a surprise, you said to me that she was the head of the Norwegian Football Federation. I put New Zealand into this, but if you actually look at real equality in terms of gender equality in the workplace, it's that entire region of the world that leads the way. So the list is Iceland, number one, Finland, number two, Norway, three, Sweden, four on that list. And there's someone out there that needs to do a scientific survey on that. What is it in the culture in that northern part of Europe when we head into Scandinavia that seems to have them so much further forward when it comes to parental leave, when it comes to work-life balance, when it comes to childcare support.

33:06I'm listing the reasons why. But when those things are in place, then you get better gender equality in the workplace. Maybe it's fish. Let's eat more fish. Maybe it's the... I'm a vegetarian. Well, what do you care most about? You have to prioritise here. But I think that's a fantastic choice. Agreed, you've got my vote. and not because I'm a man on a show with a woman thinking it's the right thing to say is because I think football would absolutely be safe in her hands. She has all the expertise that is needed. She has all the experience that is needed. She has all the business now that is needed.

33:41She has played football. You just said one of only two females on the FIFA executive committee. So the boys club is still there to as large an extent as it can be. don't hate me for this, right? So I looked at it much more pragmatically, right? If you think this is going to end like your favorite Disney movie, if you think there's a pod at the end of the FIFA rainbow, it's not going to, there's no group hug coming. Like you're not going to get the girl. Yeah. Like happens in all your favorite movies. At the end of the day, when you're looking to replace Darth Vader as head of the Death Star, you don't interview Han Solo or Princess Leia, as you're suggesting, for the job.

34:24especially when Darth Vader, his predecessor, was Emperor Palpatine. So if you end up with Darth Maul, that's probably more realistic. And if you're lucky, you might get Reva Sivander. And before anyone who loves Star Wars comes at me, just appreciate the effort I put in to Google a character from Star Wars that's kind of evil but has some redeeming qualities. You lost me at Palpatine. Same here. So I'm going to nominate Luis Figo as the choice. What's your initial response there? I felt like I lost a bit of your respect. No, I feel like if you're a Barcelona fan, you might want to have words.

35:05Yeah. But let's not let petty tribalism come into this. No, because football's not about petty tribalism at all. Before 2015, he's finishing his football career. He's already got an eye on football governance. Gianni Infantino's at UEFA. They knew each other, but they weren't close collaborators. Then fast forward to the election in which Gianni Infantino got elected. And Figo pulled out of that. He was a candidate and he said, look, it lacks credibility. So I'm not going to run in it. So Gianni Infantino is elected. Figo welcomes all the opportunity for change at FIFA. They have no public feud whatsoever.

35:41But from 2018 to now has been just a decaying of that relationship. It's exactly how our relationship is going to go over the years. Right now, you're like, yeah, I like him. He's got his flaws. He's going to annoy me. Right, eventually it's like, I've got to move house. But it started with leadership style and he criticised that. Then he started criticising the decision-making process, but all the time remaining, I feel, in bed with the governance of football. And that's what I mean about you're not going to get Han Solo to be the new head of the Death Star. His statement off the back of these financial plans that launched.

36:20Let me just read it for Badham. Today, I join others from across our game to call for Gianni Infantino to resign as FIFA president. Infantino has debased the office that he promised to elevate. He has lied, deceived and tried to feather his own nest at the expense of the game he is supposed to serve. He has lost the support of senior staff, his closest advisors, the vast majority of people who devote their lives to this sport and even it would seem the FIFA Peace Prize winner. In football parlance, that's a two-footed tackle, isn't it? He says it's too late to save his dignity, but it's not too late to save football.

36:57He should go now. Infantino out. I don't feel he's the knight in shining armour, but I feel exactly like your nomination, who I would vote for over Luis Figo. He brings in both sides of the coin, which I think we need now. It's time to get the pure billionaire business business out of football and put people in there that have that business now but understand the fundamentals of what's important in sport Both former players Would you go as far as to say both of our nominees are better choices than the ones that are currently being considered? I mean I would because I back my choice It feels like I'm leaning towards your choice more than you're willing to come and meet me in the middle No I can meet you in the middle I just think I would like a woman I just think it's time for change And do you know what gives me hope is the IOC have in the past been mired in controversy and corruption and all these kind of scandals in the past, the International Olympic Committee.

37:54And then they've chosen Kirsty Coventry, a former athlete, only in the last couple of years. But I think it's really interesting that they went with a former athlete who gets it. And it's something FIFA could look at. They won't, but they could. Quick question to finish. Who do you think would make a better FIFA president? you or me honest answer this is what I really shout out to building honesty I think you would talk a really good fight and that I would execute well maybe we could do it together no I don't I wouldn't share the job with you I would make you a vice president but there's no such thing as a joint presidency we would be running against each other I feel like I would probably bankrupt football So I would be the other extreme.

38:44I would be like, do we need billboards? Really? Do we need billboards? How much are those tickets? Really? I think£5 is enough for a ticket. I think I would actually perversely be as bad for football the other way as Gianni Infantino. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, but I would really improve the halftime show. Yeah. But here's my problem. I would introduce like real corruption. I would be like, who are the top 10 best players in the world? I see for you, a yellow card's actually a red. you get suspended for longer right so yeah Lamin-Yamal will hardly play a game at their national level by my choice if I'm in a room in Switzerland someone goes just do this and Northern Ireland could be at every World Cup I'd be like give me that reference wow you've changed well at least I'm honest at least I'm honest I don't have the integrity to say FIFA I think you probably do but you also have an inbuilt pragmatism and an ability to see a thing and simplify it.

39:42My super strength is to see something that's simple and make it really complicated. So I will, on both of these, whether it's the realistic choices or whether it's our fantasy choices, I'm voting for you. You'd be the president of brilliant analogies. But yes, there you go. You for president. And it would be great to see that change. I don't think we're going to see that change. No. Not this time around, but maybe in the incarnation after this one. That would be nice. It would be lovely. Yeah. We're closed for business. And at the end of each episode, we like to bring a bit of our lives onto air for just a couple of minutes.

40:16Mine's only going to take 30 seconds. I want to address bags for life. Wow. It's really important, this, right? What do you think a bag for life is? Well, it should be a bag that lasts your lifetime. No, it's not though. Okay. A bag for life is a bag that when it breaks through normal wear and tear, the vast majority of supermarkets replace it for free forever. Okay. If we, and there's a few signs up in the shops, just put that sign there, a bit low. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hang the bags over the sign. It's not a great business model, is it? No. But if we don't bring our bags for life back to the shop and exchange them for new bags for life, it's just the same as what we did in the 80s.

41:01We're just chucking stuff away. When your bag for life wears down, bring it back to the supermarket. They change it for free for life. I have an entire bin section full of Bags for Life that I forget to take. Right, and that's how they get you. So ends your TED talk on Bags for Life. Mine wasn't even an observation. Mine was something I saw this week that I quite enjoyed. I think I'm the last person in London to go to see this show. It's called Titanic. It's the story of Jack and Rose on the Titanic as told by Celine Dion, who claims she was there. And it is high camp. There is a singing iceberg.

41:42It's very adult. And it's the best thing ever. Do you know that's my idea of hell? Everyone should go and see it. Yeah, do you know that's my idea of hell? Why? Well, because my family grew up, my great-grandfathers and grandfather were part of them. They worked on the docks. Oh, don't say this now, he said. No, they worked in the docks. Harland and Wolfe is where it was built. I'm an East Belfast boy. I grew up in the shadow of Samson and Goliath, the cranes that built the Titanic. So the Titanic story is great for Belfast and there it is and it's great tourism. But for me, that story of the Titanic has been there my whole life.

42:13And I cannot tell you to what level. And lovely person, I just cannot stand Celine Dion. Why? Because she, for a lot of reasons, but musically, not as a person, but she did a cover of Purple Rain by Prince, which genuinely, at that moment, when I thought, if I never hear another song again, it will be too soon. Oh, you did tell me this. It's all coming back to me now. It was a criminal offence. It really went... Just awful. I'll make you a deal. I'll drive you to that theatre. I will drop you off. I'll even give you some pocket money. I will go and exchange your bags for life while you're watching that, which is genuinely more interesting to me than going to Celine Dion related thing.

42:56And then I'll pick you up after. Boom, we're sorted. Thank you. Lovely stuff. I appreciate it. Excellent stuff. Thank you very much for listening to High Performance Business, for watching High Performance Business. Thank you for listening to High Performance Business and thank you for just coming along for the conversation rather than the straightforward news stories. Thank you. Let us know how you feel. DM us on Instagram, highperformance.business. I promise you, Titanic is elite. And we will pick this up next week. See you next week. It's been lovely having you come again. Please, thank you.

43:26Never to be mentioned again.

43:31Bye.